Size does matter

mobuttu · Unread post by **mobuttu** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:38 pm

See a size comparison chart for your reference while playing.

Suddently parring a fire dragon barehanded doesn't make sense to me...

Killer Cyborg · Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:44 pm

mobuttu wrote:See a size comparison chart for your reference while playing.

Suddently parring a fire dragon barehanded doesn't make sense to me...

Awesome!!

Shark_Force · Unread post by **Shark_Force** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:46 pm

yeah, if you're sticking with the rules as written, you kinda have to not think about this

alternately, you could interpret parry more creatively, and have it include things like faking a dodge that causes the enemy to smash the wrong place, or using terrain to make it difficult for them to hit you, and stuff like that.

mobuttu · Unread post by **mobuttu** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:51 pm

Shark_Force wrote:yeah, if you're sticking with the rules as written, you kinda have to not think about this

alternately, you could interpret parry more creatively, and have it include things like faking a dodge that causes the enemy to smash the wrong place, or using terrain to make it difficult for them to hit you, and stuff like that.

Agreed.

Or simply don't let parring when it doesn't make sense. That's why dodge is for...

Akashic Soldier · Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:53 pm

I love this. I absolutely freaking love this.

You should include the behemoth explorer... actually screw it... I wonder if I could pay Madman Mike or someone to put one together with new original art or something... *scratches his chin*

Seriously, this is great.

Alright, on that note... I am off to bed. *salutes*

Giant2005 · Unread post by **Giant2005** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:08 pm

Assuming that size comparison chart is accurate, I don't think it is entirely implausible for a human to parry an attack from a Dragon. The Dragon is about 3x the size of a human (ignoring the wings) and would be comparable to a 1'4" blade parrying a 4' blade which doesn't sound too unrealistic to me.
Remember a parry doesn't require stopping something in motion, it only requires altering the trajectory of that motion. That task requires far less force.

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:11 pm

Great idea, one criticism. The Triax X-500 Forager Battlebot is mislabeled as an IAR-2 Abolisher.

Great work though!

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:39 pm

I'd suggest to the Human trying to remain in the Dragon's blind spots, like the back of the neck...

drewkitty ~..~ · Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:48 pm

Killer Cyborg wrote:
mobuttu wrote:See a size comparison chart for your reference while playing.

Suddently parring a fire dragon barehanded doesn't make sense to me...

Awesome!!

It would be nice to have all the PAs & Bots done up. Maybe by region.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:53 pm

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
mobuttu wrote:See a size comparison chart for your reference while playing.

Suddently parring a fire dragon barehanded doesn't make sense to me...

Awesome!!

It would be nice to have all the PAs & Bots done up. Maybe by region.

Agreed. Somebody's project for the new year.

Shark_Force · Unread post by **Shark_Force** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:02 pm

Giant2005 wrote:Assuming that size comparison chart is accurate, I don't think it is entirely implausible for a human to parry an attack from a Dragon. The Dragon is about 3x the size of a human (ignoring the wings) and would be comparable to a 1'4" blade parrying a 4' blade which doesn't sound too unrealistic to me.
Remember a parry doesn't require stopping something in motion, it only requires altering the trajectory of that motion. That task requires far less force.

ummmm.... i wouldn't say that the dragon is 3x the size of the human at all.

i might say that the dragon is ~3x the size in each dimension, making it actually ~27x the size of the human by volume (and most likely mass). certainly, i'd say that dragon's torso is pretty close to 3x the length of the human's height. i suspect it's more than 3x the size in the other two dimensions, mind you.

Daeglan · Unread post by **Daeglan** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:10 pm

I would love to see this done with most things in the game.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:12 pm

Well I guess a GM could make up a house rule on 'size classes' and then make one for weapon size.....would probably have to have an area rule so that you can figure if you can dodge a stop (foots to big).....yah, you COULD make up house rules to cover it if you want the added complexity.....or you can just say 'screw it' I'm going with the rules as written and the rule of cool.

The Galactus Kid · Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:43 pm

Best thing I've seen on the forums in quite some time.

Kovoston · Unread post by **Kovoston** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:51 pm

Very nice!! Was hoping this would be in a few more of the books! Please do more!

mobuttu · Unread post by **mobuttu** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:49 am

Mack wrote:Great idea, one criticism. The Triax X-500 Forager Battlebot is mislabeled as an IAR-2 Abolisher.

Great work though!

You are absolutely right. Shame on me. I stand corrected and it's already fixed. Thanks for noting it.

Glad you all like it! :-D

ffranceschi · Unread post by **ffranceschi** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:32 am

Excellent work! Imagine this but with everything! It would be super cool and time consuming to make...

mobuttu · Unread post by **mobuttu** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:11 am

By popular demand, meet the Robot and PA Triax comparison chart. (Note:sorry, no new Triax gear).

The Galactus Kid · Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:29 am

mobuttu wrote:By popular demand, meet the Robot and PA Triax comparison chart. (Note:sorry, no new Triax gear).

Would be great to see the Ulti-max (from Sourcebook 1) and the Devestator on there.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:04 am

mobuttu wrote:See a size comparison chart for your reference while playing.

Suddently parring a fire dragon barehanded doesn't make sense to me...

Well in some cases when you parry you are exchanging one damage location for another (ex. missiles), so instead of avoiding damage to the main body (torso/head) you parry it to a shield/weapon or limb I would say.

Daniel Stoker · Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:57 am

Wow, both of those are great mobuttu and as someone who can't visualize heights on my one that is just what I need for my games.

Daniel Stoker

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:59 pm

mobuttu wrote:By popular demand, meet the Robot and PA Triax comparison chart. (Note:sorry, no new Triax gear).

Again, excellent work. You astonish, good sir, you astonish.

Akashic Soldier · Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:14 pm

The Galactus Kid wrote:Would be great to see the Ulti-max (from Sourcebook 1) and the Devestator on there.

Holy cow, look at how big the Black Knight actually is!

The Galactus Kid · Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:21 pm

Akashic Soldier wrote:
The Galactus Kid wrote:Would be great to see the Ulti-max (from Sourcebook 1) and the Devestator on there.

Holy cow, look at how big the Black Knight actually is!

Black knight? Look at how big the DRAGONWING really is. I've never even thought about it.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:00 pm

It would be amazing if we could actually compile a list of every single robot and PA arranged by height and then (in a reduced-quality capacity, of course) create a chart like this showing the sizes.

Another asset to such a chart, I think, would be to list which book (and page number) has the stats for these robots.

I also think we should include the massive bots from the Phase World sourcebooks.

Also if there are any races/RCCs or NPCs with fixed heights (as opposed to a range) we could include those as well.

ffranceschi · Unread post by **ffranceschi** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:35 pm

mobuttu wrote:By popular demand, meet the Robot and PA Triax comparison chart. (Note:sorry, no new Triax gear).

Wow! I like it...please do a full Triax, Free Quebec, CS chart (one for each Army including PA and Robots, and then a combined one). This is The Best 2012 thread by far (for me).

slade the sniper · Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:53 pm

eliakon wrote:Well I guess a GM could make up a house rule on 'size classes' and then make one for weapon size.....would probably have to have an area rule so that you can figure if you can dodge a stop (foots to big).....yah, you COULD make up house rules to cover it if you want the added complexity.....or you can just say 'screw it' I'm going with the rules as written and the rule of cool.

This is actually one of the few things that D20 does well...size categories and mods to hit. You can pull it right out of the SRD and some weak google-fu will pull it right up. Since it is based on a 20-sided die like PB, no rules lawyering required.

-STS

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:06 am

Daeglan wrote:I would love to see this done with most things in the game.

Star Wars did something like this in one of their books. Only difference was that there was no scale like mobuttu has on the left, and the ships were in sillouette. It had most of the ships on the first two pages, and only a few of them went beyond that.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:03 pm

ffranceschi wrote:
mobuttu wrote:By popular demand, meet the Robot and PA Triax comparison chart. (Note:sorry, no new Triax gear).

please do a full Triax, Free Quebec, CS chart

This.

Gamer · Unread post by **Gamer** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:02 pm

The Beast wrote:
Daeglan wrote:I would love to see this done with most things in the game.

Star Wars did something like this in one of their books. Only difference was that there was no scale like mobuttu has on the left, and the ships were in sillouette. It had most of the ships on the first two pages, and only a few of them went beyond that.

That depended on the Books, the old West End Games books had quite a few nice to scale images in their books and that certainly made a big difference, it placed things in perspective of just how 'big', 'BIG' really was.

People don't really seem to get the full sense of scale until it is right in their face and it would be nice to see in the books with lots of hardware a nice scale image of them.
I've done a lot of scaling with the bot's and vehicles in the books where it could be done, on some things the art just doesn't agree at all with stat size as presented to do decent scaling -prime example Air Castle.

Blue_Lion · Unread post by **Blue_Lion** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:50 pm

mobuttu wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:yeah, if you're sticking with the rules as written, you kinda have to not think about this

alternately, you could interpret parry more creatively, and have it include things like faking a dodge that causes the enemy to smash the wrong place, or using terrain to make it difficult for them to hit you, and stuff like that.

Agreed.

Or simply don't let parring when it doesn't make sense. That's why dodge is for...

Yea it does seam a littl odd parry is not always blocking, it can be simply moving the blow to the side but it does seam a little imposible to parry something that is bigger than your whole boady but hey that is what dodge is for.

The Baron of chaos · Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:53 pm

Giant2005 wrote:Assuming that size comparison chart is accurate, I don't think it is entirely implausible for a human to parry an attack from a Dragon. The Dragon is about 3x the size of a human (ignoring the wings) and would be comparable to a 1'4" blade parrying a 4' blade which doesn't sound too unrealistic to me.
Remember a parry doesn't require stopping something in motion, it only requires altering the trajectory of that motion. That task requires far less force.

The key word here is "force" that depend on mass, acceleration and in Rifts earth superhuman/natural nature.
Unless you've some form of augmented strength(Augmented, Robotic, Supernatural) and/or you're very dense and heavy, parrying a dragon would just end being thrown away as a little peebles "parrying" your feet.

On side note this scale will make people reconsider the usefulness of Climbing skill

Talavar · Unread post by **Talavar** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:08 am

These are great, just wanted to add to that sentiment.

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:10 am

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
mobuttu wrote:See a size comparison chart for your reference while playing.

Suddently parring a fire dragon barehanded doesn't make sense to me...

Awesome!!

It would be nice to have all the PAs & Bots done up. Maybe by region.

Bots by maker would be easier to organize and reference though.

Colonel_Tetsuya · Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:24 am

Blue_Lion wrote:
mobuttu wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:yeah, if you're sticking with the rules as written, you kinda have to not think about this

alternately, you could interpret parry more creatively, and have it include things like faking a dodge that causes the enemy to smash the wrong place, or using terrain to make it difficult for them to hit you, and stuff like that.

Agreed.

Or simply don't let parring when it doesn't make sense. That's why dodge is for...

Yea it does seam a littl odd parry is not always blocking, it can be simply moving the blow to the side but it does seam a little imposible to parry something that is bigger than your whole boady but hey that is what dodge is for.

Depending on the kind of thing we're talking about, it's actually not that hard at all. If something that big is exerting all of its force down, reaching up with your sword and apply even just a few pounds of pressure laterally will divert the entire blow off course, possibly by a few feet. The more mass and force going in one direction, the farther it will then travel off course when affected by lateral pressure.

I'm (or i was, until a recent injury) a re-enactor; i've parried full-force blows from a greatsword/greatclub with nothing more than a 12" dagger. It isn't as hard as you're making it out to be - and for referrence, the sword in question is as long as i am tall.

as was pointed out, parry doesn't always (or even usually) mean block.

mobuttu · Unread post by **mobuttu** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:29 am

Thanks all for your kind words. Glad you like it!

This scale chart was initially conceived just to remind us that size should be taken into account while playing. What I like from Rifts is its "flexible ruling" (nothing is carved into stone) and I thought size should be a narrative aspect important enough to consider it. Just that. What rules does you apply while playing are up to you, AFAIK ain't no one on the books.

Besides, I'll think about putting together a massive PA/Robot size comparison chart with several builders and books references. I should be visually comprehensible, and it all depend on the available art on the books, so it'll take a while (or maybe it'll be never done by me). Please, feel free to post your suggestions on the issue (any help or comments will be very appreciated).

Eclipse · Unread post by **Eclipse** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:25 am

It was awesome seeing the scales.. and does make you wonder if they need scaling rules.. re ease of doing called strikes for small creatures vs large, and increased damage of large creatures vs small - if you factored in the MD based on heavy objects being flung around, something that weighs tons would get the benefit of extra MD when it hits things.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:36 am

It would be an interesting house rule that could work for some games. It realisticly should be harder to say....miss a 50' robot that your in melee with but I can also see people figuring that its one more layer of complexity that they dont need.

Eclipse · Unread post by **Eclipse** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:41 am

Well, it's probably best just to wing it.. and have something that shows the scale as a reminder, and just throw in descriptions that make it clear how dangerous it is to stand toe to toe with something that's like a mobile building, able to crush you or send you flying with a nudge. And generally these bonuses to hit would just apply to ranged weapons - your target being bigger than you means you have to move into position to reach certain parts of them - hard to hit them in the eyeball with a sword if you're only up to their calves.. Unless you can fly..

Still, puts me in mind of how annoying and dangerous those lasae demons or Gremlins in that movie (irl) are to people, especially when they're wielding weapons or modern appliances

and jumping out from small places to strike then retreat..

Eclipse · Unread post by **Eclipse** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:49 am

Good point..

Comrade Corsarius · Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:03 am

Eclipse wrote:
Still, puts me in mind of how annoying and dangerous those lasae demons or Gremlins in that movie (irl) are to people, especially when they're wielding weapons or modern appliances and jumping out from small places to strike then retreat..

I recall that the rifts novels *shudder* had a lasae demon that used 'sense supernatural evil' to its own benefit, getting jumpy psychics and mystics to shoot one another as it ran in between them.

ffranceschi · Unread post by **ffranceschi** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:02 pm

mobuttu wrote:Thanks all for your kind words. Glad you like it!

This scale chart was initially conceived just to remind us that size should be taken into account while playing. What I like from Rifts is its "flexible ruling" (nothing is carved into stone) and I thought size should be a narrative aspect important enough to consider it. Just that. What rules does you apply while playing are up to you, AFAIK ain't no one on the books.

Besides, I'll think about putting together a massive PA/Robot size comparison chart with several builders and books references. I should be visually comprehensible, and it all depend on the available art on the books, so it'll take a while (or maybe it'll be never done by me). Please, feel free to post your suggestions on the issue (any help or comments will be very appreciated).

Begin small: first the CS, second Free Quebec and third th NGR. After that mix them in one full chart. Continue with the other powers one by one...by all means, this could turn into something so awesome for a RIFTER article! or several...

ffranceschi · Unread post by **ffranceschi** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:33 am

enhancer wrote:Heck, these should be sold as posters. I'd buy 'em all.

SUPER AWESOME IDEA!

mobuttu · Unread post by **mobuttu** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:01 am

enhancer wrote:Heck, these should be sold as posters. I'd buy 'em all.

I'm planning to do a poster format indeed. I'm now figuring it out how to do it properly.

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:48 pm

So what's the status of this? Are you making any more scale charts?

Lord Z · Unread post by **Lord Z** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:22 am

Thank you for these charts, Mo.

mobuttu · Unread post by **mobuttu** » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:55 am

The Beast wrote:So what's the status of this? Are you making any more scale charts?

Not yet. But's still in the back of my mind... ;P

ffranceschi · Unread post by **ffranceschi** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:38 pm

We must keep this thread on top...I really want those charts!

Wooly · Unread post by **Wooly** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:43 pm

Awesome work! Can't wait to see more!