Size does matter
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- mobuttu
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Size does matter
See a size comparison chart for your reference while playing.
Suddently parring a fire dragon barehanded doesn't make sense to me...
Suddently parring a fire dragon barehanded doesn't make sense to me...
Last edited by mobuttu on Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Size does matter
mobuttu wrote:See a size comparison chart for your reference while playing.
Suddently parring a fire dragon barehanded doesn't make sense to me...
Awesome!!
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Re: Size does matter
yeah, if you're sticking with the rules as written, you kinda have to not think about this
alternately, you could interpret parry more creatively, and have it include things like faking a dodge that causes the enemy to smash the wrong place, or using terrain to make it difficult for them to hit you, and stuff like that.
alternately, you could interpret parry more creatively, and have it include things like faking a dodge that causes the enemy to smash the wrong place, or using terrain to make it difficult for them to hit you, and stuff like that.
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Re: Size does matter
Shark_Force wrote:yeah, if you're sticking with the rules as written, you kinda have to not think about this
alternately, you could interpret parry more creatively, and have it include things like faking a dodge that causes the enemy to smash the wrong place, or using terrain to make it difficult for them to hit you, and stuff like that.
Agreed.
Or simply don't let parring when it doesn't make sense. That's why dodge is for...
Last edited by mobuttu on Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Size does matter
I love this. I absolutely freaking love this.
You should include the behemoth explorer... actually screw it... I wonder if I could pay Madman Mike or someone to put one together with new original art or something... *scratches his chin*
Seriously, this is great.
Alright, on that note... I am off to bed. *salutes*
You should include the behemoth explorer... actually screw it... I wonder if I could pay Madman Mike or someone to put one together with new original art or something... *scratches his chin*
Seriously, this is great.
Alright, on that note... I am off to bed. *salutes*
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Re: Size does matter
Assuming that size comparison chart is accurate, I don't think it is entirely implausible for a human to parry an attack from a Dragon. The Dragon is about 3x the size of a human (ignoring the wings) and would be comparable to a 1'4" blade parrying a 4' blade which doesn't sound too unrealistic to me.
Remember a parry doesn't require stopping something in motion, it only requires altering the trajectory of that motion. That task requires far less force.
Remember a parry doesn't require stopping something in motion, it only requires altering the trajectory of that motion. That task requires far less force.
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Re: Size does matter
Great idea, one criticism. The Triax X-500 Forager Battlebot is mislabeled as an IAR-2 Abolisher.
Great work though!
Great work though!
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Re: Size does matter
I'd suggest to the Human trying to remain in the Dragon's blind spots, like the back of the neck...
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"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
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Re: Size does matter
Killer Cyborg wrote:mobuttu wrote:See a size comparison chart for your reference while playing.
Suddently parring a fire dragon barehanded doesn't make sense to me...
Awesome!!
It would be nice to have all the PAs & Bots done up. Maybe by region.
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Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
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Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
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Re: Size does matter
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:mobuttu wrote:See a size comparison chart for your reference while playing.
Suddently parring a fire dragon barehanded doesn't make sense to me...
Awesome!!
It would be nice to have all the PAs & Bots done up. Maybe by region.
Agreed. Somebody's project for the new year.
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
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Re: Size does matter
Giant2005 wrote:Assuming that size comparison chart is accurate, I don't think it is entirely implausible for a human to parry an attack from a Dragon. The Dragon is about 3x the size of a human (ignoring the wings) and would be comparable to a 1'4" blade parrying a 4' blade which doesn't sound too unrealistic to me.
Remember a parry doesn't require stopping something in motion, it only requires altering the trajectory of that motion. That task requires far less force.
ummmm.... i wouldn't say that the dragon is 3x the size of the human at all.
i might say that the dragon is ~3x the size in each dimension, making it actually ~27x the size of the human by volume (and most likely mass). certainly, i'd say that dragon's torso is pretty close to 3x the length of the human's height. i suspect it's more than 3x the size in the other two dimensions, mind you.
Re: Size does matter
I would love to see this done with most things in the game.
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Re: Size does matter
Well I guess a GM could make up a house rule on 'size classes' and then make one for weapon size.....would probably have to have an area rule so that you can figure if you can dodge a stop (foots to big).....yah, you COULD make up house rules to cover it if you want the added complexity.....or you can just say 'screw it' I'm going with the rules as written and the rule of cool.
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Re: Size does matter
Best thing I've seen on the forums in quite some time.
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Re: Size does matter
Very nice!! Was hoping this would be in a few more of the books! Please do more!
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Re: Size does matter
Mack wrote:Great idea, one criticism. The Triax X-500 Forager Battlebot is mislabeled as an IAR-2 Abolisher.
Great work though!
You are absolutely right. Shame on me. I stand corrected and it's already fixed. Thanks for noting it.
Glad you all like it!
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Re: Size does matter
Excellent work! Imagine this but with everything! It would be super cool and time consuming to make...
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Re: Size does matter
By popular demand, meet the Robot and PA Triax comparison chart. (Note:sorry, no new Triax gear).
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Re: Size does matter
mobuttu wrote:By popular demand, meet the Robot and PA Triax comparison chart. (Note:sorry, no new Triax gear).
Would be great to see the Ulti-max (from Sourcebook 1) and the Devestator on there.
Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:I'm not sure if its possible, but if it isn't, then possible will just have to get over it.
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Re: Size does matter
mobuttu wrote:See a size comparison chart for your reference while playing.
Suddently parring a fire dragon barehanded doesn't make sense to me...
Well in some cases when you parry you are exchanging one damage location for another (ex. missiles), so instead of avoiding damage to the main body (torso/head) you parry it to a shield/weapon or limb I would say.
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Re: Size does matter
Wow, both of those are great mobuttu and as someone who can't visualize heights on my one that is just what I need for my games.
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Re: Size does matter
mobuttu wrote:By popular demand, meet the Robot and PA Triax comparison chart. (Note:sorry, no new Triax gear).
Again, excellent work. You astonish, good sir, you astonish.
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
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Re: Size does matter
The Galactus Kid wrote:Would be great to see the Ulti-max (from Sourcebook 1) and the Devestator on there.
Holy cow, look at how big the Black Knight actually is!
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Re: Size does matter
Akashic Soldier wrote:The Galactus Kid wrote:Would be great to see the Ulti-max (from Sourcebook 1) and the Devestator on there.
Holy cow, look at how big the Black Knight actually is!
Black knight? Look at how big the DRAGONWING really is. I've never even thought about it.
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Re: Size does matter
It would be amazing if we could actually compile a list of every single robot and PA arranged by height and then (in a reduced-quality capacity, of course) create a chart like this showing the sizes.
Another asset to such a chart, I think, would be to list which book (and page number) has the stats for these robots.
I also think we should include the massive bots from the Phase World sourcebooks.
Also if there are any races/RCCs or NPCs with fixed heights (as opposed to a range) we could include those as well.
Another asset to such a chart, I think, would be to list which book (and page number) has the stats for these robots.
I also think we should include the massive bots from the Phase World sourcebooks.
Also if there are any races/RCCs or NPCs with fixed heights (as opposed to a range) we could include those as well.
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Re: Size does matter
mobuttu wrote:By popular demand, meet the Robot and PA Triax comparison chart. (Note:sorry, no new Triax gear).
Wow! I like it...please do a full Triax, Free Quebec, CS chart (one for each Army including PA and Robots, and then a combined one). This is The Best 2012 thread by far (for me).
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Re: Size does matter
eliakon wrote:Well I guess a GM could make up a house rule on 'size classes' and then make one for weapon size.....would probably have to have an area rule so that you can figure if you can dodge a stop (foots to big).....yah, you COULD make up house rules to cover it if you want the added complexity.....or you can just say 'screw it' I'm going with the rules as written and the rule of cool.
This is actually one of the few things that D20 does well...size categories and mods to hit. You can pull it right out of the SRD and some weak google-fu will pull it right up. Since it is based on a 20-sided die like PB, no rules lawyering required.
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Re: Size does matter
Daeglan wrote:I would love to see this done with most things in the game.
Star Wars did something like this in one of their books. Only difference was that there was no scale like mobuttu has on the left, and the ships were in sillouette. It had most of the ships on the first two pages, and only a few of them went beyond that.
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Re: Size does matter
This.ffranceschi wrote:mobuttu wrote:By popular demand, meet the Robot and PA Triax comparison chart. (Note:sorry, no new Triax gear).
please do a full Triax, Free Quebec, CS chart
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Re: Size does matter
The Beast wrote:Daeglan wrote:I would love to see this done with most things in the game.
Star Wars did something like this in one of their books. Only difference was that there was no scale like mobuttu has on the left, and the ships were in sillouette. It had most of the ships on the first two pages, and only a few of them went beyond that.
That depended on the Books, the old West End Games books had quite a few nice to scale images in their books and that certainly made a big difference, it placed things in perspective of just how 'big', 'BIG' really was.
People don't really seem to get the full sense of scale until it is right in their face and it would be nice to see in the books with lots of hardware a nice scale image of them.
I've done a lot of scaling with the bot's and vehicles in the books where it could be done, on some things the art just doesn't agree at all with stat size as presented to do decent scaling -prime example Air Castle.
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Re: Size does matter
mobuttu wrote:Shark_Force wrote:yeah, if you're sticking with the rules as written, you kinda have to not think about this
alternately, you could interpret parry more creatively, and have it include things like faking a dodge that causes the enemy to smash the wrong place, or using terrain to make it difficult for them to hit you, and stuff like that.
Agreed.
Or simply don't let parring when it doesn't make sense. That's why dodge is for...
Yea it does seam a littl odd parry is not always blocking, it can be simply moving the blow to the side but it does seam a little imposible to parry something that is bigger than your whole boady but hey that is what dodge is for.
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I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Size does matter
Giant2005 wrote:Assuming that size comparison chart is accurate, I don't think it is entirely implausible for a human to parry an attack from a Dragon. The Dragon is about 3x the size of a human (ignoring the wings) and would be comparable to a 1'4" blade parrying a 4' blade which doesn't sound too unrealistic to me.
Remember a parry doesn't require stopping something in motion, it only requires altering the trajectory of that motion. That task requires far less force.
The key word here is "force" that depend on mass, acceleration and in Rifts earth superhuman/natural nature.
Unless you've some form of augmented strength(Augmented, Robotic, Supernatural) and/or you're very dense and heavy, parrying a dragon would just end being thrown away as a little peebles "parrying" your feet.
On side note this scale will make people reconsider the usefulness of Climbing skill
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Re: Size does matter
These are great, just wanted to add to that sentiment.
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Re: Size does matter
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:mobuttu wrote:See a size comparison chart for your reference while playing.
Suddently parring a fire dragon barehanded doesn't make sense to me...
Awesome!!
It would be nice to have all the PAs & Bots done up. Maybe by region.
Bots by maker would be easier to organize and reference though.
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Re: Size does matter
Blue_Lion wrote:mobuttu wrote:Shark_Force wrote:yeah, if you're sticking with the rules as written, you kinda have to not think about this
alternately, you could interpret parry more creatively, and have it include things like faking a dodge that causes the enemy to smash the wrong place, or using terrain to make it difficult for them to hit you, and stuff like that.
Agreed.
Or simply don't let parring when it doesn't make sense. That's why dodge is for...
Yea it does seam a littl odd parry is not always blocking, it can be simply moving the blow to the side but it does seam a little imposible to parry something that is bigger than your whole boady but hey that is what dodge is for.
Depending on the kind of thing we're talking about, it's actually not that hard at all. If something that big is exerting all of its force down, reaching up with your sword and apply even just a few pounds of pressure laterally will divert the entire blow off course, possibly by a few feet. The more mass and force going in one direction, the farther it will then travel off course when affected by lateral pressure.
I'm (or i was, until a recent injury) a re-enactor; i've parried full-force blows from a greatsword/greatclub with nothing more than a 12" dagger. It isn't as hard as you're making it out to be - and for referrence, the sword in question is as long as i am tall.
as was pointed out, parry doesn't always (or even usually) mean block.
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.
- mobuttu
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Re: Size does matter
Thanks all for your kind words. Glad you like it!
This scale chart was initially conceived just to remind us that size should be taken into account while playing. What I like from Rifts is its "flexible ruling" (nothing is carved into stone) and I thought size should be a narrative aspect important enough to consider it. Just that. What rules does you apply while playing are up to you, AFAIK ain't no one on the books.
Besides, I'll think about putting together a massive PA/Robot size comparison chart with several builders and books references. I should be visually comprehensible, and it all depend on the available art on the books, so it'll take a while (or maybe it'll be never done by me). Please, feel free to post your suggestions on the issue (any help or comments will be very appreciated).
This scale chart was initially conceived just to remind us that size should be taken into account while playing. What I like from Rifts is its "flexible ruling" (nothing is carved into stone) and I thought size should be a narrative aspect important enough to consider it. Just that. What rules does you apply while playing are up to you, AFAIK ain't no one on the books.
Besides, I'll think about putting together a massive PA/Robot size comparison chart with several builders and books references. I should be visually comprehensible, and it all depend on the available art on the books, so it'll take a while (or maybe it'll be never done by me). Please, feel free to post your suggestions on the issue (any help or comments will be very appreciated).
- Un blog de Rifts. My blog about our game.
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I received a *Nekira Seal of Approval*...Once!
"always remember; the Splugorth can do anything" - everloss
Sorry for my bad English!
- Maqui Ed. My RPG company.
I received a *Nekira Seal of Approval*...Once!
"always remember; the Splugorth can do anything" - everloss
Sorry for my bad English!
- Eclipse
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Re: Size does matter
It was awesome seeing the scales.. and does make you wonder if they need scaling rules.. re ease of doing called strikes for small creatures vs large, and increased damage of large creatures vs small - if you factored in the MD based on heavy objects being flung around, something that weighs tons would get the benefit of extra MD when it hits things.
And if... somone whipped out a mini gun. We run and hide. lol.
Now.. some guys won't... and you can say nice things at their funeral. "He was a brave soul.... if stupid.. he didn't take cover when the guy whipped out the mini gun on us that day.. but his blood-fountaining corpse did give us a chance to sneak around and clonk the machine gunner on the head with a rock. Rest in Pieces.... Swiss Cheese Man.....
Pepsi Jedi
Now.. some guys won't... and you can say nice things at their funeral. "He was a brave soul.... if stupid.. he didn't take cover when the guy whipped out the mini gun on us that day.. but his blood-fountaining corpse did give us a chance to sneak around and clonk the machine gunner on the head with a rock. Rest in Pieces.... Swiss Cheese Man.....
Pepsi Jedi
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Re: Size does matter
It would be an interesting house rule that could work for some games. It realisticly should be harder to say....miss a 50' robot that your in melee with but I can also see people figuring that its one more layer of complexity that they dont need.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.
Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
- Eclipse
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Re: Size does matter
Well, it's probably best just to wing it.. and have something that shows the scale as a reminder, and just throw in descriptions that make it clear how dangerous it is to stand toe to toe with something that's like a mobile building, able to crush you or send you flying with a nudge. And generally these bonuses to hit would just apply to ranged weapons - your target being bigger than you means you have to move into position to reach certain parts of them - hard to hit them in the eyeball with a sword if you're only up to their calves.. Unless you can fly..
Still, puts me in mind of how annoying and dangerous those lasae demons or Gremlins in that movie (irl) are to people, especially when they're wielding weapons or modern appliances and jumping out from small places to strike then retreat..
Still, puts me in mind of how annoying and dangerous those lasae demons or Gremlins in that movie (irl) are to people, especially when they're wielding weapons or modern appliances and jumping out from small places to strike then retreat..
And if... somone whipped out a mini gun. We run and hide. lol.
Now.. some guys won't... and you can say nice things at their funeral. "He was a brave soul.... if stupid.. he didn't take cover when the guy whipped out the mini gun on us that day.. but his blood-fountaining corpse did give us a chance to sneak around and clonk the machine gunner on the head with a rock. Rest in Pieces.... Swiss Cheese Man.....
Pepsi Jedi
Now.. some guys won't... and you can say nice things at their funeral. "He was a brave soul.... if stupid.. he didn't take cover when the guy whipped out the mini gun on us that day.. but his blood-fountaining corpse did give us a chance to sneak around and clonk the machine gunner on the head with a rock. Rest in Pieces.... Swiss Cheese Man.....
Pepsi Jedi
- Eclipse
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Re: Size does matter
Good point..
And if... somone whipped out a mini gun. We run and hide. lol.
Now.. some guys won't... and you can say nice things at their funeral. "He was a brave soul.... if stupid.. he didn't take cover when the guy whipped out the mini gun on us that day.. but his blood-fountaining corpse did give us a chance to sneak around and clonk the machine gunner on the head with a rock. Rest in Pieces.... Swiss Cheese Man.....
Pepsi Jedi
Now.. some guys won't... and you can say nice things at their funeral. "He was a brave soul.... if stupid.. he didn't take cover when the guy whipped out the mini gun on us that day.. but his blood-fountaining corpse did give us a chance to sneak around and clonk the machine gunner on the head with a rock. Rest in Pieces.... Swiss Cheese Man.....
Pepsi Jedi
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Re: Size does matter
Eclipse wrote:
Still, puts me in mind of how annoying and dangerous those lasae demons or Gremlins in that movie (irl) are to people, especially when they're wielding weapons or modern appliances and jumping out from small places to strike then retreat..
I recall that the rifts novels *shudder* had a lasae demon that used 'sense supernatural evil' to its own benefit, getting jumpy psychics and mystics to shoot one another as it ran in between them.
I'd get up in the morning and watch the sun rise over the yardarm of my sky-ship as the sails billowed in the breeze and the land slid by 300-odd metres below. I'd grasp the mahogany ship's wheel, turn her nose a few points back onto the line, and feel pity for all those poor bastards below who have to work for a living. - My idea of the good life in Rifts.
Steampunk SAMAS finally built!
Steampunk SAMAS finally built!
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Re: Size does matter
mobuttu wrote:Thanks all for your kind words. Glad you like it!
This scale chart was initially conceived just to remind us that size should be taken into account while playing. What I like from Rifts is its "flexible ruling" (nothing is carved into stone) and I thought size should be a narrative aspect important enough to consider it. Just that. What rules does you apply while playing are up to you, AFAIK ain't no one on the books.
Besides, I'll think about putting together a massive PA/Robot size comparison chart with several builders and books references. I should be visually comprehensible, and it all depend on the available art on the books, so it'll take a while (or maybe it'll be never done by me). Please, feel free to post your suggestions on the issue (any help or comments will be very appreciated).
Begin small: first the CS, second Free Quebec and third th NGR. After that mix them in one full chart. Continue with the other powers one by one...by all means, this could turn into something so awesome for a RIFTER article! or several...
Head of Northern Gun Research and Development
"I'm ready man, check it out. I am the ultimate badass! State-of-the-badass-art!" - Private Hudson, ALIENS (1986).
"I'm ready man, check it out. I am the ultimate badass! State-of-the-badass-art!" - Private Hudson, ALIENS (1986).
- ffranceschi
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Re: Size does matter
enhancer wrote:Heck, these should be sold as posters. I'd buy 'em all.
SUPER AWESOME IDEA!
Head of Northern Gun Research and Development
"I'm ready man, check it out. I am the ultimate badass! State-of-the-badass-art!" - Private Hudson, ALIENS (1986).
"I'm ready man, check it out. I am the ultimate badass! State-of-the-badass-art!" - Private Hudson, ALIENS (1986).
- mobuttu
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Re: Size does matter
enhancer wrote:Heck, these should be sold as posters. I'd buy 'em all.
I'm planning to do a poster format indeed. I'm now figuring it out how to do it properly.
- Un blog de Rifts. My blog about our game.
- Maqui Ed. My RPG company.
I received a *Nekira Seal of Approval*...Once!
"always remember; the Splugorth can do anything" - everloss
Sorry for my bad English!
- Maqui Ed. My RPG company.
I received a *Nekira Seal of Approval*...Once!
"always remember; the Splugorth can do anything" - everloss
Sorry for my bad English!
- The Beast
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Re: Size does matter
So what's the status of this? Are you making any more scale charts?
- Lord Z
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Re: Size does matter
Thank you for these charts, Mo.
Currently recruiting for Beyond the Supernatural games in 2019 which I am running on Discord: voice, text, and play-by-post. Here is the non-expiring server invite link: 418BQSLG
“All would be well. All would be heavenly— If the damned would only stay damned.”
-- Charles Fort, The Book of the Damned, 1913
“All would be well. All would be heavenly— If the damned would only stay damned.”
-- Charles Fort, The Book of the Damned, 1913
- mobuttu
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Re: Size does matter
The Beast wrote:So what's the status of this? Are you making any more scale charts?
Not yet. But's still in the back of my mind... ;P
- Un blog de Rifts. My blog about our game.
- Maqui Ed. My RPG company.
I received a *Nekira Seal of Approval*...Once!
"always remember; the Splugorth can do anything" - everloss
Sorry for my bad English!
- Maqui Ed. My RPG company.
I received a *Nekira Seal of Approval*...Once!
"always remember; the Splugorth can do anything" - everloss
Sorry for my bad English!
- ffranceschi
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Re: Size does matter
We must keep this thread on top...I really want those charts!
Head of Northern Gun Research and Development
"I'm ready man, check it out. I am the ultimate badass! State-of-the-badass-art!" - Private Hudson, ALIENS (1986).
"I'm ready man, check it out. I am the ultimate badass! State-of-the-badass-art!" - Private Hudson, ALIENS (1986).
Re: Size does matter
Awesome work! Can't wait to see more!
“When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” - C.S. Lewis