Vampire Question

[sasha]

Forgive me if this has been brought up before but I was having a discussion about Rifts Vampires today and had questions. If a tiny little squirt gun can do 2D6 to a vampire what about me spitting on a vampire? I know this sounds stupid but saliva is over 90% water, and if we want to get technical so is urine. Blood is also made up of a high percentage of water with various sources stating anywhere from 80-98%. So if I urinate on a vampire does it damage him? If I throw tea, pop, kool-aid etc. at one does it do damage?

I would say it doesn't matter because a vampire is fast enough to avoid these attacks without even rolling dice.

How would a vampire be fast enough to run from me throwing something liquid at them but not fast enough to run from getting sprayed by a water pistol? If they are fast enough to avoid those attacks without rolling dice then why use a water gun to attack them? How is a mere human going to stake them?

Sorry. You mentioned a squirt gun, which I included in "these attacks". In other words, I think a quirt gun against vampires is as bunk as throwing a bucket of water at them.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think he's talking more about his idea of what vampires should be, rather than what they actually are as presented in Rifts.
A lot of people don't like the running water vulnerability, but it comes from old vampires stories, just like everything else about them.
There was a variation of this rule in AD&D, and I don't remember anybody griping about it... but then, that was before White Wolf.

[sasha]

Forgive me if this has been brought up before but I was having a discussion about Rifts Vampires today and had questions. If a tiny little squirt gun can do 2D6 to a vampire what about me spitting on a vampire? I know this sounds stupid but saliva is over 90% water, and if we want to get technical so is urine. Blood is also made up of a high percentage of water with various sources stating anywhere from 80-98%. So if I urinate on a vampire does it damage him? If I throw tea, pop, kool-aid etc. at one does it do damage?

I would say it doesn't matter because a vampire is fast enough to avoid these attacks without even rolling dice.

How would a vampire be fast enough to run from me throwing something liquid at them but not fast enough to run from getting sprayed by a water pistol? If they are fast enough to avoid those attacks without rolling dice then why use a water gun to attack them? How is a mere human going to stake them?

Sorry. You mentioned a squirt gun, which I included in "these attacks". In other words, I think a quirt gun against vampires is as bunk as throwing a bucket of water at them.

Apparently you've never read the Vampire Kingdoms, squirt guns are standard equipment in the fight against vampires. If a vampire is quick enough to dodge a super soaker, how is a mere mortal going to stake him?

Arrows for one, or even a mortal trained in hand to hand combat. But a pool toy should have no chance whatsoever. However, I can imagine a TW/magical water gun or something with high pressure such as a pressure sprayer requiring a roll.

[sasha]

I think he's talking more about his idea of what vampires should be, rather than what they actually are as presented in Rifts.

Incorrect. I have no problem with the running water vulnerability.
I simply cannot take seriously that a plastic squirt gun can be used in combat against vampires beyond point blank range.

[Zer0 Kay]

I dare you to find me one GM who runs a palladium game using 'canon' rules and no house rules..

When I first started playing my group played with no house rules, up until the first time I joined the Army. Upon my first ETS when we got back together we began incorperating different things, so we had to come up with house rules to cover them. So nowadays, I wouldn't play without house rules, unless it was just a quick H&S game or two. Even then, I think there's a few things we'd still house rule.

My con games are pure pally no House Rules what so ever.

My personal games OTH...
Of course all my Home games of PB, WW, Gurps, FASA, D&D, WEG. FASERIP, and MEGS are house ruled to fit my style.

So when the players are rolling up characters do you make them stick with ones on their die rolls for HP or SDC bonuses? If you do pre-made chars do you do the same? If yes... DANG. If you reroll the ones then your house ruling the game. I'm sure there are a ton of little things we do that aren't part of the system, that we consider "normal" and not house ruled.

[Zer0 Kay]

Forgive me if this has been brought up before but I was having a discussion about Rifts Vampires today and had questions. If a tiny little squirt gun can do 2D6 to a vampire what about me spitting on a vampire? I know this sounds stupid but saliva is over 90% water, and if we want to get technical so is urine. Blood is also made up of a high percentage of water with various sources stating anywhere from 80-98%. So if I urinate on a vampire does it damage him? If I throw tea, pop, kool-aid etc. at one does it do damage?

I would say it doesn't matter because a vampire is fast enough to avoid these attacks without even rolling dice.

So... where exactly does it state in the book that vampires are super fast? There is no celerity in this game, it isn't white wolf or any modern itteration of vampires. The fastest ground speed they can have is 40 for the Wild Vampires, Secondary are much slower at 28 and Masters are at 34. No super speed there so natural ability to dodge based off PP score... Wild and Secondary have a max of 26 and the Master 28, again not so scary. A master has a whole whopping 5 attacks and only a +2 to init., no dodge bonuses... I'm really not seeing the super fast vamp here and instead seeing like it is more the old stuff just like AD&Ds vamps. So they are the classic RPG vamps not the WW reimaginings, granted I really like the WW version, I like the WW concepts, I'd take them any day compared to more recent reimaginings of vampires... oh say, sparkley ones

[Killer Cyborg]

I think he's talking more about his idea of what vampires should be, rather than what they actually are as presented in Rifts.

Incorrect. I have no problem with the running water vulnerability.
I simply cannot take seriously that a plastic squirt gun can be used in combat against vampires beyond point blank range.

Alrighty.
Why?
And what do you consider to be "point blank?"

[sasha]

I think he's talking more about his idea of what vampires should be, rather than what they actually are as presented in Rifts.

Incorrect. I have no problem with the running water vulnerability.
I simply cannot take seriously that a plastic squirt gun can be used in combat against vampires beyond point blank range.

Well obviously unless you are using a high powered super soaker you are going to be point blank. So a vampire can out run me throwing a bucket of water on him, but he can't out run me staking him?

Whether you take it seriously or not, it is canon!

According to Vampire Kingdoms a plastic pool toy can be used against a vampire up to 30 feet away, well beyond point blank range. Realistically I think when you're engaged in hand to hand combat, you could stake one. It's a timing and distance thing. But that's not how combat mechanics work in Rifts, which I understand. If it helps, give the vampire a +10 bonus to dodge such an attack.

Of course, it is canon and I thought I had clarified it was just my opinion.

[sasha]

Forgive me if this has been brought up before but I was having a discussion about Rifts Vampires today and had questions. If a tiny little squirt gun can do 2D6 to a vampire what about me spitting on a vampire? I know this sounds stupid but saliva is over 90% water, and if we want to get technical so is urine. Blood is also made up of a high percentage of water with various sources stating anywhere from 80-98%. So if I urinate on a vampire does it damage him? If I throw tea, pop, kool-aid etc. at one does it do damage?

I would say it doesn't matter because a vampire is fast enough to avoid these attacks without even rolling dice.

So... where exactly does it state in the book that vampires are super fast? There is no celerity in this game, it isn't white wolf or any modern itteration of vampires. The fastest ground speed they can have is 40 for the Wild Vampires, Secondary are much slower at 28 and Masters are at 34. No super speed there so natural ability to dodge based off PP score... Wild and Secondary have a max of 26 and the Master 28, again not so scary. A master has a whole whopping 5 attacks and only a +2 to init., no dodge bonuses... I'm really not seeing the super fast vamp here and instead seeing like it is more the old stuff just like AD&Ds vamps. So they are the classic RPG vamps not the WW reimaginings, granted I really like the WW version, I like the WW concepts, I'd take them any day compared to more recent reimaginings of vampires... oh say, sparkley ones

I don't think that the vampire has to be super fast to avoid a squirt gun.
A vampire's P.P. will average about 17, which is considered exceptional in Rifts.
If I can dodge squirt guns and snowballs, I think an exceptionally agile monster could, too.

[sasha]

I think he's talking more about his idea of what vampires should be, rather than what they actually are as presented in Rifts.

Incorrect. I have no problem with the running water vulnerability.
I simply cannot take seriously that a plastic squirt gun can be used in combat against vampires beyond point blank range.

Alrighty.
Why?
And what do you consider to be "point blank?"

I'd go with a meter from nozzle to vampire.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd go with a meter from nozzle to vampire.

Have you ever actually used a squirt gun?
Was it one of the cheapies from the county fair that always leaks, can't shoot straight, and can't shoot more than a yard or two?

Or was it more like this?

Or was it something even better, something made out of sturdy metal and/or ceramics rather than cheap plastic, something specifically designed to be used in actual combat?

[Zer0 Kay]

Forgive me if this has been brought up before but I was having a discussion about Rifts Vampires today and had questions. If a tiny little squirt gun can do 2D6 to a vampire what about me spitting on a vampire? I know this sounds stupid but saliva is over 90% water, and if we want to get technical so is urine. Blood is also made up of a high percentage of water with various sources stating anywhere from 80-98%. So if I urinate on a vampire does it damage him? If I throw tea, pop, kool-aid etc. at one does it do damage?

I would say it doesn't matter because a vampire is fast enough to avoid these attacks without even rolling dice.

So... where exactly does it state in the book that vampires are super fast? There is no celerity in this game, it isn't white wolf or any modern itteration of vampires. The fastest ground speed they can have is 40 for the Wild Vampires, Secondary are much slower at 28 and Masters are at 34. No super speed there so natural ability to dodge based off PP score... Wild and Secondary have a max of 26 and the Master 28, again not so scary. A master has a whole whopping 5 attacks and only a +2 to init., no dodge bonuses... I'm really not seeing the super fast vamp here and instead seeing like it is more the old stuff just like AD&Ds vamps. So they are the classic RPG vamps not the WW reimaginings, granted I really like the WW version, I like the WW concepts, I'd take them any day compared to more recent reimaginings of vampires... oh say, sparkley ones

I don't think that the vampire has to be super fast to avoid a squirt gun.
A vampire's P.P. will average about 17, which is considered exceptional in Rifts.
If I can dodge squirt guns and snowballs, I think an exceptionally agile monster could, too.

Well then you open up so many problems. A fireball and many other spells travel "slowly". So to you, how fast does something need to be going in order to hit a vampire? Will a subsonic bullet be fast enough? Heck are the Triax pump guns fast enough? Cuz I can dodge paintballs. If you are able to dodge a super soaker it is because the idiot let off the trigger instead of using the constant stream it puts out. The vampire doesn't get special treatment vs. snowballs, thrown water, water guns, fireballs, sphere's of annihilation, paintballs, explosive Triax pumpgun (aka barracuda paintball gun) balls over any other character or creature with the same or higher statistics. They already get dodge bonuses due to the high PP... and if your using old TMNT, N&S or PFRPG rules they get additional dodge bonuses for high Spd.. So they get No extra bonuses. Heck getting those bonuses from PP would be house rulling already since anyone should only be getting a straight roll to dodge projectiles.

[Zer0 Kay]

I think he's talking more about his idea of what vampires should be, rather than what they actually are as presented in Rifts.

Incorrect. I have no problem with the running water vulnerability.
I simply cannot take seriously that a plastic squirt gun can be used in combat against vampires beyond point blank range.

Alrighty.
Why?
And what do you consider to be "point blank?"

I'd go with a meter from nozzle to vampire.

Well first you need to know what point blank range means. here is a whiki definition.

In external ballistics, point-blank range is the distance between a firearm and a target of a given size such that the bullet in flight is expected to strike the target without adjusting the elevation of the firearm. The point-blank range will vary with the firearm and its particular ballistic characteristics, as well as the target chosen. A firearm with a flatter trajectory will permit a nearer minimum and further maximum point blank range for a given target size, while a larger target will allow for a longer point blank range for a given firearm.[1]

Now, If you are a match shooter as I am, it is used to describe the point ware the fired bullet crosses an imaginary straight line from the bore of the weapon being fired. So imagine a straight line from end of barrel to target. Projectile if fired and just like a football will arc up and then down on its way to the target. ware it crosses that straight line is point blank range. That sed if you don't like it change it. Its a game after all

Funny frogboy that you omit the second more frequently used and forensic term, which is more likely the definition that is used by Palladium.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't think that the vampire has to be super fast to avoid a squirt gun.
A vampire's P.P. will average about 17, which is considered exceptional in Rifts.
If I can dodge squirt guns and snowballs, I think an exceptionally agile monster could, too.

I agree; they could.
But it would cost them an action, like any other dodge.

[sasha]

I'd go with a meter from nozzle to vampire.

Have you ever actually used a squirt gun?
Was it one of the cheapies from the county fair that always leaks, can't shoot straight, and can't shoot more than a yard or two?

Or was it more like this?

Or was it something even better, something made out of sturdy metal and/or ceramics rather than cheap plastic, something specifically designed to be used in actual combat?

I'd still go with a meter. It's short, borderline too short. Let's go with 3 meters - I think that's the plastic squirt gun's range in Vampire Kingdoms. If a vampire is that close to you he can cover that distance in one attack. If I was anywhere near a vampire and I still decided to go with a plastic squirt gun, I'd reconsider my tactics. But this is all my opinion, same as it ever was.

[sasha]

Forgive me if this has been brought up before but I was having a discussion about Rifts Vampires today and had questions. If a tiny little squirt gun can do 2D6 to a vampire what about me spitting on a vampire? I know this sounds stupid but saliva is over 90% water, and if we want to get technical so is urine. Blood is also made up of a high percentage of water with various sources stating anywhere from 80-98%. So if I urinate on a vampire does it damage him? If I throw tea, pop, kool-aid etc. at one does it do damage?

I would say it doesn't matter because a vampire is fast enough to avoid these attacks without even rolling dice.

So... where exactly does it state in the book that vampires are super fast? There is no celerity in this game, it isn't white wolf or any modern itteration of vampires. The fastest ground speed they can have is 40 for the Wild Vampires, Secondary are much slower at 28 and Masters are at 34. No super speed there so natural ability to dodge based off PP score... Wild and Secondary have a max of 26 and the Master 28, again not so scary. A master has a whole whopping 5 attacks and only a +2 to init., no dodge bonuses... I'm really not seeing the super fast vamp here and instead seeing like it is more the old stuff just like AD&Ds vamps. So they are the classic RPG vamps not the WW reimaginings, granted I really like the WW version, I like the WW concepts, I'd take them any day compared to more recent reimaginings of vampires... oh say, sparkley ones

I don't think that the vampire has to be super fast to avoid a squirt gun.
A vampire's P.P. will average about 17, which is considered exceptional in Rifts.
If I can dodge squirt guns and snowballs, I think an exceptionally agile monster could, too.

Well then you open up so many problems. A fireball and many other spells travel "slowly". So to you, how fast does something need to be going in order to hit a vampire? Will a subsonic bullet be fast enough? Heck are the Triax pump guns fast enough? Cuz I can dodge paintballs. If you are able to dodge a super soaker it is because the idiot let off the trigger instead of using the constant stream it puts out. The vampire doesn't get special treatment vs. snowballs, thrown water, water guns, fireballs, sphere's of annihilation, paintballs, explosive Triax pumpgun (aka barracuda paintball gun) balls over any other character or creature with the same or higher statistics. They already get dodge bonuses due to the high PP... and if your using old TMNT, N&S or PFRPG rules they get additional dodge bonuses for high Spd.. So they get No extra bonuses. Heck getting those bonuses from PP would be house rulling already since anyone should only be getting a straight roll to dodge projectiles.

I'd have to re-read the spell description. I'm not aware of fireballs traveling "slowly". They require a saving throw or can they be dodged?

I was able to dodge because the pressure peters out.

[sasha]

So in your life you have never once been hit with a snowball. a water gun or a bucket of water?

But I dont' consider myself to have exceptional P.P. attribute number.

A game will never match real life, and I don't think it's unreasonable to treat exceptional things exceptionally.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd go with a meter from nozzle to vampire.

Have you ever actually used a squirt gun?
Was it one of the cheapies from the county fair that always leaks, can't shoot straight, and can't shoot more than a yard or two?

Or was it more like this?

Or was it something even better, something made out of sturdy metal and/or ceramics rather than cheap plastic, something specifically designed to be used in actual combat?

I'd still go with a meter. It's short, borderline too short. Let's go with 3 meters - I think that's the plastic squirt gun's range in Vampire Kingdoms. If a vampire is that close to you he can cover that distance in one attack. If I was anywhere near a vampire and I still decided to go with a plastic squirt gun, I'd reconsider my tactics. But this is all my opinion, same as it ever was.

The listed range for the "plastic squirt gun" is 30'.
That's the listed range for a lot of super-soakers. I don't believe that all of them are necessarily effective at that range, but I'm pretty sure it's well within the range of the better ones.

When it's warmer out, maybe I'll gets some friends and test this....

[Killer Cyborg]

Ninjabunny is making me test whether I can spit as far and as much as a small water pistol

Nice!

[Zer0 Kay]

Not the threads turned into a peeing contest J/K

Yeah... next is the my "stake" is bigger than yours competition.

[Vrykolas2k]

well I'll see your rules lawyering and raise you an it's up to the individual GM who's running a game with Vampires in it to decide the rules.

I think I win.

Nuff said..

You're incredibly mistaken.
All that individual GMs decide on is what the HOUSE rules are for that particular group.
And unless we're in a thread talking about house rules, it's pretty safe to assume that nobody cares about that.

Ahh but when it comes down to it I knew the answer had been given already.. I was really busting on obliteration of the dead horse that has been going on in this thread.

Ultimately yes there are 'canon' rules in print, but they are more like guidelines than rules. I dare you to find me one GM who runs a palladium game using 'canon' rules and no house rules..

That being said. Enjoy your ground-horse (you are not getting a nice horse steak anywhere from this thread). I may pop back in again when we are on 50 pages of stupidity to clean up there remaining horse guts at that time.

Does it count if you only make a house rule to cover something an existing rule diesn't?
I aside from that, I'm canon all the way.
If two rules are in contention, I use the one which makes more sense to my group and me.