Vampire Question

[csbioborg]

The real answer rifts wants to stay out of discussing any real major religions but they wanted to throw every move cliche about vampires into the game so we have vampires that are afraid of crosses for no discreable reason

[Jorel]

So if I urinate on a vampire does it damage him? If I throw tea, pop, kool-aid etc. at one does it do damage?
Again sorry if these are stupid questions.

No such thing as stupid questions. I say yes, go for it. I'd allow it, though it takes big gusto to pull out your junk and **** on a vampire while your fighting it, regardless of sex. If that's all ya got, go for it.

Edit: I forget, doesn't it have to be holy water? Then you better be drinkin lots of that.

[Johnathan]

A GM of mine and I had a discussion about the whole cross thing. Well... Actually we had a hugely in-depth discussion about undead in general when we were (pardon the pun) revamping vampires.

Vampires are semi-elemental creatures, it is how they possess their metamorphosis powers and controlling powers. These "elements" are earth, darkness and unholy. We decided (again this is our interpretations) that "elements" that directly opposed their elements effected them. Like Water, Light and Holy.

Looking at it in those terms would explain it quite well.

On the topic of blood, spit and urine... Well... Remember that it has to be RUNNING water... Yeah...

[Jorel]

So if I urinate on a vampire does it damage him? If I throw tea, pop, kool-aid etc. at one does it do damage?
Again sorry if these are stupid questions.

No such thing as stupid questions. I say yes, go for it. I'd allow it, though it takes big gusto to pull out your junk and **** on a vampire while your fighting it, regardless of sex. If that's all ya got, go for it.

Edit: I forget, doesn't it have to be holy water? Then you better be drinkin lots of that.

Doesn't have to be holy, just running X)

You might have to be going a certain speed to qualify as "running".

[Mack]

Crosses work because, well... they work.

The exact nature of this powerful symbol is not known, but its influence is world renowned.

It works because of some other inherent power of the Cross that has nothing to do with Christainity.

[csbioborg]

actually the urinating question was answered in letters to the editor in rifter 9.5 and no it does not work

[dragonfett]

You DO realize that the entire Rifter 9.5 was a joke, right? It was a April Fool's Special, as explained by Kevin in Rifter 10.

[csbioborg]

actually the urinating question was answered in letters to the editor in rifter 9.5 and no it does not work

Not only was it a joke, but it states the pee is a chemical and it is not, it is 98% water, you can even drink your own urine. What about throwing tea, or other mostly water liquid?

its the mystical properties of water that cause damage pee has been sullied by go through the Human Excretory System
its similar to why blood which is mostly water does not burn vampires when they drink it

[cornholioprime]

Forgive me if this has been brought up before but I was having a discussion about Rifts Vampires today and had questions. If a tiny little squirt gun can do 2D6 to a vampire what about me spitting on a vampire? I know this sounds stupid but saliva is over 90% water, and if we want to get technical so is urine. Blood is also made up of a high percentage of water with various sources stating anywhere from 80-98%. So if I urinate on a vampire does it damage him? If I throw tea, pop, kool-aid etc. at one does it do damage?

Rifts/Palladium Vampire Abilities, Needs, and Weaknesses are based on Supernaturally-imposed restrictions and limitations, not physics-based or logical ones.

It doesn't matter that Blood, Urine, and Tap Water are chemically almost identical, the Vampires can only gain nourishment from the one type of 'water' and be harmed by the others.
Likewise, it doesn't matter that Animal Blood and Human Blood are 99.99999999% identical to one another except for a few proteins, the Palladium Vampire cannot consume animal blood.

In other words, the standard answer of 'The Authors thought that it would be cool for Vampires to be affected by _________________ and didn't care about the science or logic behind it' applies here.

I also have a question about crosses keeping vampires at bay. In old methos I can understand this to an extent because of the religious connotations of old world vampires. Rifts vampires are made by a Vampire Intelligence so it has nothing to do with religion. So why does a cross work? If a cross works because it's a religious symbol shouldn't any religious symbol work? Especially if it's the faith behind the symbol that works against them.

Virtually ANY Religious Symbol -in at least one case Evil ones as well as Holy ones if the Bad Guy Deity in question and/or his followers is fervently opposed to the activities of Vampire Intelligences -can keep them at bay, whether the person actually believes in that faith or not.

Isis' Ankh or the Star of David or the Crucifix will work just as well in the hands of a Priest of Aco as it would in the hands of an Egyptian polytheist or a Jew or a Christian, and even if the Vampire in question is/was an Atheist or Agnostic -the vulnerability is magically innate to the Vampire, no conscious knowledge or belief on the part of Vampire or Wielder is required.

[Killer Cyborg]

Forgive me if this has been brought up before but I was having a discussion about Rifts Vampires today and had questions. If a tiny little squirt gun can do 2D6 to a vampire what about me spitting on a vampire? I know this sounds stupid but saliva is over 90% water, and if we want to get technical so is urine. Blood is also made up of a high percentage of water with various sources stating anywhere from 80-98%. So if I urinate on a vampire does it damage him? If I throw tea, pop, kool-aid etc. at one does it do damage?

No.
The mystical properties of spit, urine, blood, soda, kool-aid, etc. are all different from the mystical properties of water.

So why does a cross work? If a cross works because it's a religious symbol shouldn't any religious symbol work?

IIRC, any symbol of a God of Light will have the same effect, though I could be misremembering.

[The Beast]

Forgive me if this has been brought up before but I was having a discussion about Rifts Vampires today and had questions. If a tiny little squirt gun can do 2D6 to a vampire what about me spitting on a vampire? I know this sounds stupid but saliva is over 90% water, and if we want to get technical so is urine. Blood is also made up of a high percentage of water with various sources stating anywhere from 80-98%. So if I urinate on a vampire does it damage him? If I throw tea, pop, kool-aid etc. at one does it do damage?

No.
The mystical properties of spit, urine, blood, soda, kool-aid, etc. are all different from the mystical properties of water.

So why does a cross work? If a cross works because it's a religious symbol shouldn't any religious symbol work?

IIRC, any symbol of a God of Light will have the same effect, though I could be misremembering.

IIRC, the only other thing mentioned was symbols of Thor's hammer, and that wasn't until either CB2, or D&G. I'm hoping the new vampire book changes it to any symbol of any God of Light, but the holder has to worship said god (or member of Patheon).

[The Dark Elf]

The cross is the mystic symbol for protection (see diabolist). It's nothing to do with mythological religions; it's a magic thing.

[The Beast]

Dude you quoted where you are saying that if you kill a master it will free female vampires from being slaves. If they have already been turned then it will not revert them back to human, it will only save someone from being turned if they haven't been bitten for the third time. So I really don't understand what your post was trying to say.

Keyword is "slaves". When a person is already turned, that person must submit to slavery by mind control, to that vampire that made him/her into a vampire. Kill that vampire, and that person is broken free from such slavery. One example of this, is the N.P.C. Cihuateto, in the Rifts Conversion Book 2.

For future discussions, if you don't really know what I meant, please ask me, and I'll be more than happy to explain it to you. You can guess, but don't be so certain on it, because it's only a guess after all. If you get it right or wrong, I'll tell you.

That's not the way you wrote it though. I know what you mean now, but going off hte first post alone you seem to be saying killing the master frees the vampires, not the slaves.

[dragonfett]

The cross is the mystic symbol for protection (see diabolist). It's nothing to do with mythological religions; it's a magic thing.

Um, a pentagram is also a symbol of protection, so would that mean that a pentagram would work on a vampire.

[Colt47]

Well, considering vampires have probably been stabbed and bludgeoned by people with "holy" symbols since the dark ages I'd imagine they might develop a slight phobia to seeing a cross, pentagram, Buddha statue, or whatever other holy symbols people have in this massive universe.

[Mack]

The cross is the mystic symbol for protection (see diabolist). It's nothing to do with mythological religions; it's a magic thing.

Um, a pentagram is also a symbol of protection, so would that mean that a pentagram would work on a vampire.

Nope. Pentagrams don't work.

The symbol and even the shadow of the crucifix (T shaped cross) will cause the vampire to recoil in apparent fear and pain. The exact nature of this powerful symbol is not known, but its influence is world renowned.

It's unknown why crosses work. Claiming it works because it's a symbol of protection, and applying its abilities to other symbols of protection, is a mistake.

[dragonfett]

I knew that pentagrams don't work (don't get me started on that subject, though), however I was just trying to make a point of the fact that it's not because the cross is a symbol of protection. I don't see why the ankh wouldn't work though, as it has a very cross like appearance.

[dragonfett]

Emperor Ryu, what do you mean when you said:

I agree with the books too.

[Jorel]

Of what good use to you is a vampire? Female, beautiful, or otherwise. I still can't find the original quoted post.

[Jorel]

No, I remember when he posted it, I don't see it now.
Edit: nevermind I reread that post six times before I saw it again.

[Jorel]

I don't.

[Damian Magecraft]

It wasn't a matter of what I can or can't do in my game, hells if i wanted to make brownie mix kill vampires I could, I was asking for other peoples opinions.

I sooooo wanna play in that game.
Master Vamp: "and why Should I Fear this man?"
Secondary Vamp Lackey: "Master, He is the ACE of Cakes!"

[Damian Magecraft]

It wasn't a matter of what I can or can't do in my game, hells if i wanted to make brownie mix kill vampires I could, I was asking for other peoples opinions.

I sooooo wanna play in that game.
Master Vamp: "and why Should I Fear this man?"
Secondary Vamp Lackey: "Master, He is the ACE of Cakes!"

I am totally going to have to do this now as a gag. Would it work if it was blessed?

I dunno but it would make Hot Cross Buns deadly...especially if I made them mine can double as hockey pucks...

[Colt47]

It wasn't a matter of what I can or can't do in my game, hells if i wanted to make brownie mix kill vampires I could, I was asking for other peoples opinions.

I sooooo wanna play in that game.
Master Vamp: "and why Should I Fear this man?"
Secondary Vamp Lackey: "Master, He is the ACE of Cakes!"

I am totally going to have to do this now as a gag. Would it work if it was blessed?

I dunno but it would make Hot Cross Buns deadly...especially if I made them mine can double as hockey pucks...

You know, it shouldn't be too hard in the world of Rifts to make a gun that shoots hot cross buns. Seriously, a gun that makes food to eat AND a good anti-vampire weapon? Sign me up for one (Unless you are referring to making your hockey puck variety. I think we all have gone through that phase in our lives )

[cornholioprime]

Emperor Ryu, what do you mean

What I mean by that, is that I consider only the cross as the current and only symbol that affects vampires.

Then you better tell all those Vampires on planet Palladium and elsewhere in the Megaverse, who have never even seen or heard of the Christian Cross, that they've been repulsed by the wrong Holy Symbols all this time (see the Pantheons of the Megaverse sourcebook, Land of the Damned Two: Eternal Torment, and Rifts: Dark Conversions, to name a few).

[cornholioprime]

Then you better tell all those Vampires on planet Palladium and elsewhere in the Megaverse, who have never even seen or heard of the Christian Cross, that they've been repulsed by the wrong Holy Symbols all this time (see the Pantheons of the Megaverse sourcebook, Land of the Damned Two: Eternal Torment, and Rifts: Dark Conversions, to name a few).

Can you please point out in the Rifts: Dark Conversions Book, and the Rifts: Conversion Book 2: Pantheons of the Megaverse that states holy symbols in general affects vampires and does so-and-so damage to them?

Rifts Pantheons: A symbol of Thor's hammer also repels Vampires and all undead.

Rifts: Dark Conversions and Land of the Damned Two: Eternal Torment -states that Holy Symbols of ALL kinds repel ALL Undead.

[cornholioprime]

Rifts Pantheons: A symbol of Thor's hammer also repels Vampires and all undead.

According to World Book 1, a T-shaped cross will cause the vampire to recoil. Since the hammer is shaped like so, it works on vampires. Same symbol to me.

Rifts: Dark Conversions -states that Holy Symbols of ALL kinds repel ALL Undead.

That section is in regards to "The Endless Undead", not to vampires. It states, . . .

The vampire is not presented in these pages because there is an entire World Book dedicated to them, Rifts World Book One: Vampire Kingdoms. Check it out!

They don't have to say "Vampire" when they say "ALL Undead." They also say in the same Dark Conversions Book that ALL Undead are affected by Silver and Wood, but by your specious reasoning, since the phrase 'ALL Undead' apparently doesn't include Vampires, then Vampires must be immune to Silver and Wood, right?

And no, Ryu, a Hammer does NOT look like a crucifix.......something that SHOULD have been obvious to you not only on its face, but also when bolstered by the statement in the same book that says "..........LIKE a cross......" as in, the Hammer is not a crucifix.

By all means, TRY and posit the argument that any "T" shaped item will work as well as a Crucifix will in Anti-Vampire combat and see how it flies around here.

I'm not interested in debating with you just for the sake of debating, so if you don't have stronger arguments than those, don't waste my time.

[dragonfett]

But take note that later books override previous books, and as WB 1: Vampire Kingdoms was written before all of the other books mentioned, that means that the other books do in fact over rule VK.

[Killer Cyborg]

Vampires are a different type of undead in the undead category. They have specific abilities that is quite unique from the other undead types in the game. Hence, there are different ways to dispatch them, in which they are specific stated in the vampires world book.

Doesn't compute.
-All undead are vulnerable to holy symbols.
-Vampires are undead.
Ergo, vampires are vulnerable to holy symbols.

In order to avoid this vulnerability, the description of vampires would have to specifically exclude holy symbols as a weakness. As far as I know, they describe no such exclusion.

Most undead have some unique abilities, but having unique abilities doesn't negate common traits among a type, not unless it is specifically stated.

[X'Zanthar]

We have always played it that the person holding the symbol must have at least a basic belief in the power it represents. So you do not have to be a priest, but must at least aacknowledge the power/pantheon as "gods"

Yes, we have had several characters who could not use a symbol as a deterrent, but we felt it was a better RP effect than just holding a generic symbol up to ward them off.

And my dragon, being a dragon could not use one, though he has other defenses.

[Grell]

I like your idea, but how do you define that belief beyond a player saying "I believe in the power of this cross"?

[X'Zanthar]

Makes sense, but like someone else says how would one know if that person has belief in that symbol.

I would also like to know why your dragon could not use one?

Most of it is roleplay. Our GM has us write up a background on the character, in which we answer several questions, one is do you believe in a higher power. Most of the characters did, though one dwarf gladiator ("All thems types will git ya killed") who had a odd all gods were out to take the place of the old ones, the warlocks (they were not considered to be worshippers of gods), and a mind mage. All were non-believers, and it had the advantage of not being messed with by the powers that be, like being the priestess (gnome mind you), of Isis being the target of Set.

As for my dragon, all dragons are powers unto themselves and consider no power to be above them. Actually I remembered reading something about dragons feeling that way and it has been the way we have played it. Kind of odd, as I remember running into a priest like dragon in the old pfrpg, and I think they did have abilities like priests, but I do not think any of the new dragons do.

[Killer Cyborg]

Doesn't compute.
-All undead are vulnerable to holy symbols.
-Vampires are undead.
Ergo, vampires are vulnerable to holy symbols.

In order to avoid this vulnerability, the description of vampires would have to specifically exclude holy symbols as a weakness. As far as I know, they describe no such exclusion.

Most undead have some unique abilities, but having unique abilities doesn't negate common traits among a type, not unless it is specifically stated.

If there are different types of supernatural beings, all with their various types of weaknesses, and different types of humans and their various types of characteristics and abilities, then the undead are no different in having a bunch of different types as well.

There are indeed a bunch of different types of undead.
But they're all still undead, so if the rulebook say "All undead _______," then that includes ALL UNDEAD.
Unless there is a specific type of undead that is described as being an exception to that particular rule.

Vampires are not in the same level as the "Endless Undead", who are vulnerable to holy symbols. Vampires are undead, but a different type of undead, thus they have their own book.

Was the phrase "All Endless Undead ______?"
Or "All Undead ______?"

If it only states that the crucifix, then it's only the crucifix. Nothing more needs to be said, in my opinion.

Your opinion is wrong.
If it states that the crucifix has a certain effect, then the crucifix has that effect, but that doesn't mean that nothing else could have that same effect.
I, for example, can be killed by .45 caliber bullets to the head.
This does not mean that only .45 bullets to the head can kill me.
Other calibers could kill me, bullets at other body locations can kill me, and all sorts of non-bullet stuff can kill me.
There is nothing in the initial statement that precludes any of the other possibilities from existing.

In order for it to be definitely only the crucifix that effects them that way, the book would have to say that ONLY the crucifix affects them that way.
But it doesn't, so future books are free to add other things to the list of objects/substances/whatever that affect vampires that way.
And they did.

[Jorel]

Jesus was a carpenter, any type of hammer will do, just not MC...Don't hurt us.

[cornholioprime]

They don't have to say "Vampire" when they say "ALL Undead." They also say in the same Dark Conversions Book that ALL Undead are affected by Silver and Wood, but by your specious reasoning, since the phrase 'ALL Undead' apparently doesn't include Vampires, then Vampires must be immune to Silver and Wood, right? And no, a Hammer does NOT look like a crucifix.......something that SHOULD have been obvious to you not only on its face, but also when bolstered by the statement in the same book that says "..........LIKE a cross......" as in, the Hammer is not a crucifix.

Vampires are a different type of undead in the undead category. They have specific abilities that is quite unique from the other undead types in the game. Hence, there are different ways to dispatch them, in which they are specific stated in the vampires world book. The book states that the shadow of a crucifix can damage a vampire, this leads us to assume that any object shaped like the crucifix (a.k.a. the Cross) can and does affect vampires.

crucifix
noun
a representation of a cross with a figure of Jesus Christ on it.

That argument doesn't fly, either.

While the entries in LoD II: Land of the Damned and Rifts: Dark Conversions tell the reader to go to Rifts: Vampire Kingdoms for more detailed information, the series of paragraphs in the former Books EXPLICITLY lay out which types of capabilities and weaknesses apply to which types of Undead -at one point even alerting the reader that Sunlight isn't fatal to most dead besides Vampires (it only weakens them), unless otherwise stated.

The series of paragraphs in that section speak of both 'run-of-the-mill' Undead as well as Vampires.

"Thus, like the traditional Vampire...weapons made of wood, silver, or magic..."

"Against Vampires, rain does....and holding a Vampire under running water does......damage..."

"Unless stated otherwise, ordinary water has NO ill effect on the other types of Undead...."

"Driving a wooden stake into the vampire's heart........staking other undead often has no such effect..."

For those of us who, for whatever reason, think that "all" somehow doesn't mean "all," the list of comparisons of various Undead in the Article, including Vampires, and the fact that they are presented side-by-side means that the Authors were dealing with all of the different types of Undead all at once, including Vampires.

[Prysus]

According to World Book 1, a T-shaped cross will cause the vampire to recoil. Since the hammer is shaped like so, it works on vampires. Same symbol to me.

The book states that the shadow of a crucifix can damage a vampire, this leads us to assume that any object shaped like the crucifix (a.k.a. the Cross) can and does affect vampires.

Greetings and Salutations. I know I shouldn't, but I just have to ask ...

If any symbol/object shaped like a cross (lower case "t") hurts vampires (this is why the hammer works) then ... ... (wait for it) ... ... does that mean that vampires are illiterate (or effectively so) in your games?

Seriously, think about it. Just about any sentence you're going to see will have the lower case "t" in it. Poor vampires!

"It's been a long night fighting the humans, drinking the blood, escaping from some vampire hunters, and now all I want to do is sit down and read a good book." *Opens the book to the first page.* "Gah! Look at all those little baby crosses! The horror!" And that's when all the secondary vampires start laughing at the master vampire as he ran screaming from the house like a little girl. Behold the power of a literature.

Anyways, just my being curious. I probably shouldn't have asked, but I just had to know. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



P.S. If anyone is curious, there are ninety-nine (99) 't' shaped symbols in my post (including the quotes and this note). Have fun.

[Jorel]

Whoa.

[Killer Cyborg]

Was the phrase "All Endless Undead ______?" Or "All Undead ______?" If it states that the crucifix has a certain effect, then the crucifix has that effect, but that doesn't mean that nothing else could have that same effect. I, for example, can be killed by .45 caliber bullets to the head. This does not mean that only .45 bullets to the head can kill me. Other calibers could kill me, bullets at other body locations can kill me, and all sorts of non-bullet stuff can kill me. There is nothing in the initial statement that precludes any of the other possibilities from existing.

In order for it to be definitely only the crucifix that effects them that way, the book would have to say that ONLY the crucifix affects them that way.
But it doesn't, so future books are free to add other things to the list of objects/substances/whatever that affect vampires that way.
And they did.

It states in the Rifts: Dark Conversion Book, on page 45, . . .

Sometimes a specific undead will have a specific, special or additional vulnerability, but unless it says otherwise in the description, the usual wood, silver and magic vulnerability applies.

If the vampire book does not state, and/or mention other holy symbols, then it means these other holy symbols does not apply to vampires.

You got things exactly backwards.
IF all undead are vulnerable to x, THEN unless it says otherwise in the description, x applies.
Vampires don't say otherwise, therefor x applies.
(Where x= either vulnerability to wood/silver/magic, or to holy symbols)

It doesn't necessarily have to state/mention them in the book to be an exclusion.

Yeah, it does. That's the point of the passage you just quoted.

[Killer Cyborg]

Thank you, Prysus.

[Shark_Force]

you know, at some point, you really should stop repeating yourself and stop paying attention to the person who never listens to anything anyone says.

i'm going to propose that said point has been reached. you've all repeatedly presented the rules, and they are repeatedly being refused as valid with no basis other than someone doesn't want them to be valid. you can't disprove that the person doesn't want them to be valid, and any time spent attempting to do so is wasted. by this point, anyone else reading this thread is going to realise that one person has their head in the sand (like the proverbial ostrich, but not at all like the actual ostrich which doesn't actually bury its head in the sand. so really, it's a lot more like a person who has buried their head in the sand than anything, i guess) and that everyone else is right... or is simply beyond the possibility of convincing anyways.

those who can be convinced by such minor details as evidence, logic, and reasoning, have already been convinced. those who are immune to such petty concerns are not going to be affected anyways. you may as well give the reason for your position that the moon is actually a cube, but is distorted by the atmosphere to appear round, and not bother to provide any evidence for your (false) reasoning or information, because it would not be any less persuasive to any people who are not already persuaded.

[cornholioprime]

you know, at some point, you really should stop repeating yourself and stop paying attention to the person who never listens to anything anyone says.

i'm going to propose that said point has been reached. you've all repeatedly presented the rules, and they are repeatedly being refused as valid with no basis other than someone doesn't want them to be valid. you can't disprove that the person doesn't want them to be valid, and any time spent attempting to do so is wasted. by this point, anyone else reading this thread is going to realise that one person has their head in the sand (like the proverbial ostrich, but not at all like the actual ostrich which doesn't actually bury its head in the sand. so really, it's a lot more like a person who has buried their head in the sand than anything, i guess) and that everyone else is right... or is simply beyond the possibility of convincing anyways.

those who can be convinced by such minor details as evidence, logic, and reasoning, have already been convinced. those who are immune to such petty concerns are not going to be affected anyways. you may as well give the reason for your position that the moon is actually a cube, but is distorted by the atmosphere to appear round, and not bother to provide any evidence for your (false) reasoning or information, because it would not be any less persuasive to any people who are not already persuaded.

If any symbol/object shaped like a cross (lower case "t") hurts vampires (this is why the hammer works) then ... ... (wait for it) ... ... does that mean that vampires are illiterate (or effectively so) in your games?

Seriously, think about it. Just about any sentence you're going to see will have the lower case "t" in it. Poor vampires!

"It's been a long night fighting the humans, drinking the blood, escaping from some vampire hunters, and now all I want to do is sit down and read a good book." *Opens the book to the first page.* "Gah! Look at all those little baby crosses! The horror!" And that's when all the secondary vampires start laughing at the master vampire as he ran screaming from the house like a little girl. Behold the power of a literature.

Anyways, just my being curious. I probably shouldn't have asked, but I just had to know. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



P.S. If anyone is curious, there are ninety-nine (99) 't' shaped symbols in my post (including the quotes and this note). Have fun.[/justify]

Thank you both for your posts.

Well said.

[Jorel]

you know, at some point, you really should stop repeating yourself and stop paying attention to the person who never listens to anything anyone says.

i'm going to propose that said point has been reached. you've all repeatedly presented the rules, and they are repeatedly being refused as valid with no basis other than someone doesn't want them to be valid. you can't disprove that the person doesn't want them to be valid, and any time spent attempting to do so is wasted. by this point, anyone else reading this thread is going to realise that one person has their head in the sand (like the proverbial ostrich, but not at all like the actual ostrich which doesn't actually bury its head in the sand. so really, it's a lot more like a person who has buried their head in the sand than anything, i guess) and that everyone else is right... or is simply beyond the possibility of convincing anyways.

those who can be convinced by such minor details as evidence, logic, and reasoning, have already been convinced. those who are immune to such petty concerns are not going to be affected anyways. you may as well give the reason for your position that the moon is actually a cube, but is distorted by the atmosphere to appear round, and not bother to provide any evidence for your (false) reasoning or information, because it would not be any less persuasive to any people who are not already persuaded.

If any symbol/object shaped like a cross (lower case "t") hurts vampires (this is why the hammer works) then ... ... (wait for it) ... ... does that mean that vampires are illiterate (or effectively so) in your games?

Seriously, think about it. Just about any sentence you're going to see will have the lower case "t" in it. Poor vampires!

"It's been a long night fighting the humans, drinking the blood, escaping from some vampire hunters, and now all I want to do is sit down and read a good book." *Opens the book to the first page.* "Gah! Look at all those little baby crosses! The horror!" And that's when all the secondary vampires start laughing at the master vampire as he ran screaming from the house like a little girl. Behold the power of a literature.

Anyways, just my being curious. I probably shouldn't have asked, but I just had to know. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



P.S. If anyone is curious, there are ninety-nine (99) 't' shaped symbols in my post (including the quotes and this note). Have fun.[/justify]

Thank you both for your posts.

Well said.

Agreed and seconded. I wish I were that good with words.

[Killer Cyborg]

If the vampire book does not state, and/or mention other holy symbols, then it means these other holy symbols does not apply to vampires.

Exactly. It doesn't state other holy symbols affects vampires, otherwise anything not stated in the book could be considered as possible weapon against vampires, just because it's not stated, by your interpretations.

I didn't actually say that. You're quoting your own words, and ascribing them to me.

IF all undead are vulnerable to x, THEN unless it says otherwise in the description, x applies.

Exactly. Holy Symbols includes the crucifix. The crucifix is given an addition detail not specified in the Vampires Book. The Vampire Book doesn't specify other Holy Symbols, therefore doesn't apply to them.

Holy Symbols includes the crucifix, yes. So the rule governing undead overall does not change the fact that crucifixes affect vampires. Likewise, there is nothing about crucifixes affecting vampires that precludes other holy symbols from likewise affecting them. No specification is needed in the Vampire Kingdoms book.

Yeah, it does. That's the point of the passage you just quoted.

Stating the exclusion in the book is your point, and my point is if it's not stated in the book it's already excluded.

The point of the passage you just quoted is that an exclusion has to be directly stated.
No such statement is made regarding vampires.

[Killer Cyborg]

I didn't actually say that. You're quoting your own words, and ascribing them to me.

But applying your interpretation as such in this discussion, would key a player to undertake such a perception into that very context.

You're hallucinating.

Holy Symbols includes the crucifix, yes. So the rule governing undead overall does not change the fact that crucifixes affect vampires. Likewise, there is nothing about crucifixes affecting vampires that precludes other holy symbols from likewise affecting them. No specification is needed in the Vampire Kingdoms book.

If the book doesn't mention the other Holy Symbols, they are already excluded.

Incorrect. As the passage you quoted points out, they need to be specifically excluded; there needs to be a statement saying that vampires are an exception to the rule, otherwise they are NOT.

The exact nature of this powerful symbol is not known, but its influence is world renowned.

Then why state this, and then suddenly include other Holy Symbols? It doesn't make any sense by your interpretations.

What part of that quote do you see as excluding other holy symbols?

The point of the passage you just quoted is that an exclusion has to be directly stated.
No such statement is made regarding vampires.

In your argument, you stated that the vampire books did not specifically state that the crucifix is the only symbol to affect vampires. Henceforth, your argument is taking the position of an exclusionary side. My argument is based on the quote specifying the vampires as a special case in the category of the undead, where the crucifix has been already determined by their own book, to be the only symbol to affect them.

Your argument has no validity or soundness.
The point of the passage you just quoted is that an exclusion has to be directly stated.
No such statement is made regarding vampires.
Whether vampires are special in some other ways is irrelevant.

[cornholioprime]

The point of the quote states to refer to the vampires book.

If the Authors didn't want you to take ANYTHING at all from the other books (Land of the Damned II: Eternal Torment and Rifts: Dark Conversions), then they wouldn't gone into a series of paragraphs in those same books listing a side-by-side comparison of the various Undead 'species' including the Vampire.

Therefore, your claim that Rifts: Vampire Kingdoms is the ONLY source of information on Vampire vulnerabilities that can be looked at, is a specious claim, at best, or an intellectually dishonest attempt on your part to avoid/ignore evidence that proves you wrong at worst.

Rather, the Authors' mention of the Rifts: Vampire Kingdoms book is evidence of nothing more than the publishers' time-honored practice of cross-mentioning other Gaming materials for advertising purposes.

[cornholioprime]

If the Authors didn't want you to take ANYTHING at all from the other books (Land of the Damned II: Eternal Torment and Rifts: Dark Conversions), then they wouldn't gone into a series of paragraphs in those same books listing a side-by-side comparison of the various Undead 'species' including the Vampire. Rather, the Authors' mention of the Rifts: Vampire Kingdoms book is evidence of nothing more than the publishers' time-honored practice of cross-mentioning other Gaming materials for advertising purposes.

You can do what fits best in your games. There is nothing wrong with that, simply because it's an RPG. You are most welcome to play it the way you want to. However, there are other people in the RPG realm that interprets and plays it differently from you, including myself and my group, back in our days.

You can discard that crappy dodge as well as the "new information in new Books doesn't override old information" excuse.

Neither the OP nor the general train of thought of the last several Posts ask for a House Rule answer.

[cornholioprime]

If an RPG can be flexible in both interpretations and game play, I see nothing wrong here.

Again, you're dodging.

If someone asks me whether or not sunlight damages Vampires, and they are not asking me what rules I follow in my own Games, then I don't get to "interpret" Pudding as a deadly substance to vampires; if I choose to answer a question that asks for an official ruling, then I am bound to provide them with the Book's official answer.

[Dustin Fireblade]

In the vampires book, it states, only the crucifix affects vampires

Well that's not quite true -

On page 81 of Vampire Kingdoms, under Steve's Gags and Gifts, the "Mayan Luck Stones" will hold vampires at bay just like a crucifix. (These are just small round stones with magic symbols on them).

Players used these extensively back in the day in my game.

[Killer Cyborg]

Incorrect. As the passage you quoted points out, they need to be specifically excluded; there needs to be a statement saying that vampires are an exception to the rule, otherwise they are NOT.

That quote specifics the vampires book. And in that book, there is no mentioning of the other Holy Symbols. Ergo, they do not apply to the vampires. Only the crucifix.

What part of that quote do you see as excluding other holy symbols?

That it specifically states this crucifix affects the vampires.

The point of the passage you just quoted is that an exclusion has to be directly stated. No such statement is made regarding vampires. Whether vampires are special in some other ways is irrelevant.

The point of the quote states to refer to the vampires book. Thus negating the so-called new books override the original books house rule. The crucifix is the only symbol that affects vampires as stated in their book. This additional detail to the crucifix affecting vampires, in the Rifts: Dark Conversions Book, which includes the other holy symbols having similar affects to the undead in general. The crucifix is still the only symbol to affect vampires. No other holy symbol affects the vampires.

At this point, you've looped around and are simply repeating yourself, saying things that I (and others) already sufficiently addressed.
If you come up with any new information or new angles, I'll address them.
Until then, ciao ciao.

[Killer Cyborg]

The point is, the crucifix is a holy symbol. In the vampires book, it states, only the crucifix affects vampires.

One last time, for now at lest, the vampire book does not state that.
It states that the crucifix affects vampires, NOT that ONLY the crucifix affects vampires.

Enough said already.

On that, at least, we can agree.