Cyber-Knight Zen Combat Question

[Mlp7029]

When cyber-knight faces an opponent using power armor does the opponent lose the benefits from his Robots and Power Armor Elite skill or just the bonuses the specifically listed in the armor's description? If you interpret the text literally I think the skill bonuses would be lost.

Negates any bonuses provided by the weapon/machine.

[SpiritInterface]

When cyber-knight faces an opponent using power armor does the opponent lose the benefits from his Robots and Power Armor Elite skill or just the bonuses the specifically listed in the armor's description? If you interpret the text literally I think the skill bonuses would be lost.

Negates any bonuses provided by the weapon/machine.

Any bonuses from skill are not lost since they are just interfering with the tech. If it comes from the Person they don't loose it, if it comes from the hardware they loose it.

[Mack]

I agree with Spirit.

If the equipment provides a +2 Strike, and the user has a +3 Strike, then the result would be a +3 Strike as the CK's ability negates the equipment's +2.

[dragonfett]

According to the text, the Zen Combat abilities also extend to guns held by the PC/NPC. My question is does it negate the bonuses that the shooter gets from the gun that are described as being inherent (such as a Wilk's Laser Pistol's superior balance giving it a +1)?

[eliakon]

According to the text, the Zen Combat abilities also extend to guns held by the PC/NPC. My question is does it negate the bonuses that the shooter gets from the gun that are described as being inherent (such as a Wilk's Laser Pistol's superior balance giving it a +1)?

Yes. Also for example you get a +3 initiative against an opponent using tech, and can get an automatic dodge against technology.
So if my person pulls a gun on a 5th level CK, they will get +3 on initiative and are +3 to strike and parry me and can autododge. Meanwhile I am at -3 to dodge, and lose 2 apm, and can not use the guns strike bonus if the source is technological (custom fitted, wilks, scopes, laser sights, better balance....what ever it is, if its a tech sourced bonus it doesn't apply)

[Alrik Vas]

I think you could even lose the elite bonuses, it can be interpreted that the bonus comes from applied use of the technology, but without it's advantages, you still would lose those bonuses when fighting a cyberknight.

[eliakon]

I think you could even lose the elite bonuses, it can be interpreted that the bonus comes from applied use of the technology, but without it's advantages, you still would lose those bonuses when fighting a cyberknight.

Why? Its a skill, and you have to have special training to get it.
Its not like its a hardware function....just training to use that hardware at its best.
I would say that you keep the elite bonuses....though most of them will only help to offset the CKs abilities. I mean this isn't like Karmic Power where the opponent is supposed to be helpless. And it makes it really annoying if I have to go through and recalculate what my skill is with the basic skill instead of elite. And even WORSE if you lose elite and don't get to use basic to replace it as it makes that for some reason aces are easier to kill than scrubs.....

[Alrik Vas]

I agree really, but if the hardware is useless, why would your skill with handling it still benefit you? It's not like it's a WP.

All I meant was that it could be looked on that way.

[eliakon]

I agree really, but if the hardware is useless, why would your skill with handling it still benefit you? It's not like it's a WP.

All I meant was that it could be looked on that way.

The hardware isn't useless, it just doesn't give any bonus in and of itself.
If it was supposed to be totally useless I would think it would be labeled like Karmic Power that explicitly says that the opponent only gets to use natural rolls.

[Tor]

The APM penalty is particularly interesting because instead of being maneuver-specific, it affects something inter-maneuver, the action total...

So if 2 Cyber-Knights teamed up on a SAMAS, would it be -4 actions? Or -6 from 3 knights?

[Alrik Vas]

I agree really, but if the hardware is useless, why would your skill with handling it still benefit you? It's not like it's a WP.

All I meant was that it could be looked on that way.

The hardware isn't useless, it just doesn't give any bonus in and of itself.
If it was supposed to be totally useless I would think it would be labeled like Karmic Power that explicitly says that the opponent only gets to use natural rolls.

How is it still useful in the case of the knight being effectively invisible? How does your targeting computer help you in that case? I guess that's the issue I'm seeing. Where is the bonus ACTUALLY coming from? Is it a WP? Is the bonus just "because?" (which i'll accept as an answer, because so much of Rifts works that way) or is it supposed to reflect better training with the assisted targeting systems? (which means they'd get negated because it can't help you vs a cyberknight).

[eliakon]

I agree really, but if the hardware is useless, why would your skill with handling it still benefit you? It's not like it's a WP.

All I meant was that it could be looked on that way.

The hardware isn't useless, it just doesn't give any bonus in and of itself.
If it was supposed to be totally useless I would think it would be labeled like Karmic Power that explicitly says that the opponent only gets to use natural rolls.

How is it still useful in the case of the knight being effectively invisible? How does your targeting computer help you in that case? I guess that's the issue I'm seeing. Where is the bonus ACTUALLY coming from? Is it a WP? Is the bonus just "because?" (which i'll accept as an answer, because so much of Rifts works that way) or is it supposed to reflect better training with the assisted targeting systems? (which means they'd get negated because it can't help you vs a cyberknight).

It seems to be that your better skilled at getting the most out of your gear.
Since the bonuses are stuff like +x strike (implying your better at lining up the shots) or +y dodge (so your more able to dodge) it seems that it is your personal skill.
Like I said, if it was supposed to negate all skill bonuses of tech people it would say that. Since it just says you lose the bonuses of the tech then I think you should do exactly what it says and remove all bonuses that come directly from technological sources
(and yes this does mean that cyborgs fighting CKs are screwed)

[Alrik Vas]

The dodging thing I have no argument with as the cyberknight can't actually slow you down with his zen com...bat...wait, you lose 2APM vs them.

tch.

[eliakon]

The dodging thing I have no argument with as the cyberknight can't actually slow you down with his zen com...bat...wait, you lose 2APM vs them.

tch.

And it even explicitly says why you lose them. Its not that your slowed down in any way, its that your having trouble adjusting to them.
(basically its a style familiarity penalty)

And like the strike rolls would imply that your more skilled at lining up a shot without using the computers (since anyone can use the computers with just basic)....which seems to me to be a good indication that it is 'skill and talent' and not 'better button pushing'

[Alrik Vas]

How are you a better shot without using the computers? How do the bonuses apply only in the power armor if you're not using the computers?

[eliakon]

How are you a better shot without using the computers? How do the bonuses apply only in the power armor if you're not using the computers?

Because you have trained enough with that specific system that you know how they work. You already know how to adjust for the fall of the round or the recharge cycle of your weapon.

Now the bonus from the Weapons System roll I would say is gone, since that is using the tech systems.

But if we are arguing that you cant use training at all, then we might as well say "All foes of a CK who use technology must fight with the following penalties, in addition they may only use straight natural rolls with the possible exception of stat and OCC bonuses if your GM is nice, as anything else is simply really the tech and not the person"

[Alrik Vas]

But...WP still applies, as that's just using your body, it's considered non-assisted ability. That's how I see it, anyhow.

I also think superior balance and sights, basically anything that uses physical, non-electronic benefits would still work.

[eliakon]

But...WP still applies, as that's just using your body, it's considered non-assisted ability. That's how I see it, anyhow.

I also think superior balance and sights, basically anything that uses physical, non-electronic benefits would still work.

So....basically way I see it would be Elite piloting is more or less W.P. Power Armor as opposed to Basic which is 'I can use this, more or less, but I don't know exactly what I am doing."

[Alrik Vas]

And I saw that early on, but WP is WP. Meh, we don't agree on it. That's fine. I don't rob my players of every bonus when they shoot at a cyberknight, especially if they're using open sights. Point is that I don't believe power armor training counts as a WP, because it increases bonuses that can come from WP. It's clear technological augmentation that's coming from optics and targeting systems. The dodging thing stands (kind of, hard to dodge something you can't see, as you wouldn't see a cyberknight through your multi-optics, but that is aside the point). I think the bonus APM and dodge modifiers wouldn't be negated per se (not beyond the listed -2 APM penalty, anyhow), because the cyberknight doesn't get rid of your reflexes...

I mean, I could see you losing dodge bonuses if you're getting strike prediction data from your combat computer, because it no longer sees the knight, but there's nothing indicating this is the case.