Siege weapons

[Tags]

Do any of the Palladium Fantasy books cover siege weapons? I only have a few books so far, so I am not sure.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Western Empire was going to have rules for siege weaponry, but the material was cut from the book. Fortunately, it's available online.

The Compendium of Weapons, Armor & Castles also has some information on the history and use of siege weapons, but doesn't really provide any rules or game stats.

EDIT: After someone else mentioned it, I realized that Library of Bletherad also has a section on siege warfare starting on page 156.

[Tags]

Hmmm, thanx for the link that will do for what I need, thank you. Don't have a copy of The Compendium of Weapons, Armor & Castles, may have to pick a copy up... Least I can get an idea of the damage range. Going to have to make a few up to account for different weapons not listed.

[kiralon]

The most fun I have had doing sea combat was using modified battletech rules, but here is a link to a few others.
http://www.navalwargamessociety.org/rulesonline.html

[Killer Cyborg]

Western Empire was going to have rules for siege weaponry, but the material was cut from the book. Fortunately, it's available online.

The Compendium of Weapons, Armor & Castles also has some information on the history and use of siege weapons, but doesn't really provide any rules or game stats.

This is one reason why you're always good to have around, Tinker.
You save the rest of us a LOT of time.

[Tor]

Looking at the stats for the Siege weapons at the back of Bletherad I can't actually figure out any possible reason to use anything but Heavy Arbalest in a siege.

Can someone explain to me what benefits other weapons offer compared to a heavy arbalest?

It seems to have the best range, lowest cost, easiest to operate, best damage over time, etc.

If there was something like optional damage soak rules then I could see the point of the higher damage weapons but unless you implement them... like wut is the point? Unless you're catapulting an invading invulnerable dwarf that is.

[pblackcrow]

Then again, this is a would of magic...One can forget that it is possible to use a high enough wizard as a trebuchet. Simply cast weightlessness to reduce the item to 50lbs or less, then before it goes off simply cast teleport simple on whatever...line of site teleport has a 99% chance.

Trebuchets counter weights can be manipulated by magic as well. Weightlessness and increase weight. I have had to use wild sheep dipped in rubbing alcohol and set a flame to win in one military campaign. Then again, how was I to know that the king's alchemist had discovered gun powder...Or that he was storing it in the tent one of the sheep hit. It's not as if I have network of faeries working as informants, spies, and saboteurs...Oh wait, I DO! But still that happen in 1999, the network of faeries is about a year or two old.

Also, if you can locate and convince they to assist...cyclopes make dang good allies. And can be commissioned to make lightning bolts for ballista bolts.

Speaking of ballistas, here's one for you guys. http://maplestory.wikia.com/wiki/Mega_B ... a_Ballista

Anyway, I am not going to mention every fun thing I do.

[pblackcrow]

Oh, the siege tower with the 4 repeating cross bow certainly proved useful too.

[Veknironth]

Well, if we're going to talk about magic and laying siege, let's just go with Warlocks. Things like River of Lava, Tornado, Hurricane, etc are pretty useful. Then there are all the transmute spells that turn the castle walls into malleable materials.

-Vek
"But, that link from Tinker is probably the best."

[glitterboy2098]

Looking at the stats for the Siege weapons at the back of Bletherad I can't actually figure out any possible reason to use anything but Heavy Arbalest in a siege.

Can someone explain to me what benefits other weapons offer compared to a heavy arbalest?

It seems to have the best range, lowest cost, easiest to operate, best damage over time, etc.

If there was something like optional damage soak rules then I could see the point of the higher damage weapons but unless you implement them... like wut is the point? Unless you're catapulting an invading invulnerable dwarf that is.

keep in mind siege weapons have different roles.

weapons like the arbalests and ballistas are more anti-personnel weapons.. used by defenders to attack troops far from the walls, and by attackers to keep the defenders hunkered down behind walls so troops can get closer to the walls for various missions.

Catapults, Onagers, and trebuchets are meant more for hurling stones at walls to bring them down (if the walls are wood or thinner stone) as well as for hurling objects into the fortifications (pots of flaming materials to start fires, dead bodies/carcasses to spread illness, in a few cases even beehives!)
but these weapons are far to inaccurate and hard to aim for use against people. (didn't stop defenders from using their own against attackers, but that tended to be more "hurl big rocks to make troops run away from where it might hit" and sometimes dropping stones on enemy seige engines.)

generally though battering rams and seige towers were preferred, if only for the fact that knocking down walls to get inside a fortress means that the fortress is harder to defend once you've taken it.

of course, most sieges in history ended through either treachery (the attackers bribing someone to open the gates or to allow some troops in to open the gates) or through surrender when supplies ran low.

[Tor]

keep in mind siege weapons have different roles. weapons like the arbalests and ballistas are more anti-personnel weapons.. used by defenders to attack troops far from the walls, and by attackers to keep the defenders hunkered down behind walls so troops can get closer to the walls for various missions. Catapults, Onagers, and trebuchets are meant more for hurling stones at walls to bring them down (if the walls are wood or thinner stone) as well as for hurling objects into the fortifications (pots of flaming materials to start fires, dead bodies/carcasses to spread illness, in a few cases even beehives!) but these weapons are far to inaccurate and hard to aim for use against people. (didn't stop defenders from using their own against attackers, but that tended to be more "hurl big rocks to make troops run away from where it might hit" and sometimes dropping stones on enemy seige engines.) generally though battering rams and seige towers were preferred, if only for the fact that knocking down walls to get inside a fortress means that the fortress is harder to defend once you've taken it. of course, most sieges in history ended through either treachery (the attackers bribing someone to open the gates or to allow some troops in to open the gates) or through surrender when supplies ran low.

I'm aware of the IRL tactical benefits of the other siege weapons.

I'm just talking about statistically, as PB writes weapons and armor/durability, I don't see any advantage to using anything besides the long-range arbalest.

Going purely from the stats they're given in Bletherad, what benefit (statwise) am I offered by something else? What is the disadvantage to the heavy arbalest compared to any other siege weapon?

[eliakon]

The same reason that there is no benefit to using a giant robot weapon in Rifts rather than a smaller weapons.....
Damage in Palladium does not scale well, and after a certain point it is rarely worth getting the larger unit.....

[ShadowHawk]

this is just me, but I have found it works better if you use mass & velocity verses target rules to determine the overall damage. I've forgot how they work, at the moment. Sorry, I HATE being on painkillers, I hate feeling drugged.

[Tags]

The most fun I have had doing sea combat was using modified battletech rules, but here is a link to a few others.
http://www.navalwargamessociety.org/rulesonline.html

Well... it's fitting. I want to use the Spelljammer setting with my PFRPG, so I need to adapt the weapons, billastae and such...

[pblackcrow]

this is just me, but I have found it works better if you use mass & velocity verses target rules to determine the overall damage. I've forgot how they work, at the moment. Sorry, I HATE being on painkillers, I hate feeling drugged.

What happened, Mate? And would you like me to send you distant reiki? You know the usual questions apply.

[ShadowHawk]

this is just me, but I have found it works better if you use mass & velocity verses target rules to determine the overall damage. I've forgot how they work, at the moment. Sorry, I HATE being on painkillers, I hate feeling drugged.

What happened, Mate? And would you like me to send you distant reiki? You know the usual questions apply.

YES, PLEASE...Shannon you have not idea the pain I am in...I have kidney stones. 12:00 my time, which would be 3:00 you time, do a crystal grid for me too please.

[pblackcrow]

Okay Mate. You've got it!

[ShadowHawk]

THANK YOU, SHANNON!!!

[ShadowLogan]

this is just me, but I have found it works better if you use mass & velocity verses target rules to determine the overall damage. I've forgot how they work, at the moment. Sorry, I HATE being on painkillers, I hate feeling drugged.

Sorry to hear about the painkillers.

Where are these rules found in PF2E? I know where to look in Rifts/HU2E and RT, but I don't think I've ever seen anything like them in PF2E's mainbook. Telekenisis power/spell has rules for mass, but that's about it.

[ShadowHawk]

use the ones in HU2E. and thanks.

Shannon, thank you SO MUCH. last night and today I actually got some sleep. also thank you for that concoction recipe. that has helped.

[ShadowLogan]

Okay, so cross setting to do it. Gotcha. Thank you.

Just for fun I once used those rules to determine the damage modern guns would have by those rules... lets just say M.D. level and leave it at that.

[pblackcrow]

Okay, so cross setting to do it. Gotcha. Thank you.

Just for fun I once used those rules to determine the damage modern guns would have by those rules... lets just say M.D. level and leave it at that.

Eh, I simply figured up the math for a cow falling from low planet orbit. I had a munchkin and a rules lawyer to destroy! LOL! They shouldn't have defiled a temple by peeing on the offerings, crapping on alter, stealing the treasury, killing the high priestess', kidnapping the seer, and then burning the temple. They almost started a war between Isis and Juggernaut! If he didn't turn their whereabouts over to her, it wouldn't have been enough of him left to identify. I rolled to see how ticked she was...100%. Eh, Teenagers! What can I say?

[ShadowHawk]

Okay, so cross setting to do it. Gotcha. Thank you.

Just for fun I once used those rules to determine the damage modern guns would have by those rules... lets just say M.D. level and leave it at that.

Eh, I simply figured up the math for a cow falling from low planet orbit. I had a munchkin and a rules lawyer to destroy! LOL! They shouldn't have defiled a temple by peeing on the offerings, crapping on alter, stealing the treasury, killing the high priestess', kidnapping the seer, and then burning the temple. They almost started a war between Isis and Juggernaut! If he didn't turn their whereabouts over to her, it wouldn't have been enough of him left to identify. I rolled to see how ticked she was...100%. Eh, Teenagers! What can I say?

I REMEMBER THAT...LOL.

[Tor]

The same reason that there is no benefit to using a giant robot weapon in Rifts rather than a smaller weapons.....

The benefit there is usually an unlimited payload or having longer ranges. Plus fan theories about weapon systems allowing you to ignore speed-based strike penalties in RUE.

Pondering though, one advantage did occur to me, and that's the ability to instantly kill something which heals very quickly. Someone who might be able to regenerate faster than your arbalests can inflict damage, but might have damage capacity low enough to be killed in a single blow by the top-tier damage.

In that sense, surprise attacks could be another one. You only get one attack people can't defend gainst, then they throw up tehir armors of Ithan or teleport away to safety or whatever.

It's just hard to conceive of heavy siege weapons being used as surprise attacks. I guess it's possible with a lot of invisibility and camouflage spells and killing scouts though.

[kiralon]

Pondering though, one advantage did occur to me, and that's the ability to instantly kill something which heals very quickly. Someone who might be able to regenerate faster than your arbalests can inflict damage, but might have damage capacity low enough to be killed in a single blow by the top-tier damage.

Only really possible with the trebuchet, as the catapults down to arbalests don't do very much damage.
I play siege weapons as instantly fatal, if the strike roll is 17+ goodnight irene, if its 5-17 its a glancing blow and does the damage listed. It also ignores non-magical armour (except arbalests).