cs citizenship for "d-bees"

[say652]

Kind of an offshoot from the xiticik thread.

Would or could a mage/mutant/d-bee get citizenship with enough money or "heroic" deeds??

I Say(652) Yes, with rights similiar to a Dogboy or other Psychic.

[Library Ogre]

No. Never knowingly on the part of the CS as it currently exists.

They might win local, revocable, tolerance (i.e. the leader of this one town convinces the garrison that "this one is alright" and they don't shoot him), but that could change with a change of leadership at the garrison, and it isn't going to extend to the rest of the CS, or anyone else.

[say652]

So a wolfen for example that sold out his party, thus resulting in the deaths of a few hundred enemies and seizure of contraband wouldn't be considered an "undercover Dogboy operative"??

[Glistam]

I don't believe Dogboy's who go Feral are welcome back, and the Wolfen in that example would at best be considered a Feral Dogboy.

The CS can't knowingly offer citizenship to a D-Bee or Mage without violating everything the CS is about. Conditional Tolerance, as already stated, is probably the best they could expect. The caveat here of course is knowingly. A human-looking D-Bee may very well be able to pull it off.

[say652]

So tolerance is the way to go.
You can stay here and only here.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't believe Dogboy's who go Feral are welcome back, and the Wolfen in that example would at best be considered a Feral Dogboy.

The CS can't knowingly offer citizenship to a D-Bee or Mage without violating everything the CS is about. Conditional Tolerance, as already stated, is probably the best they could expect. The caveat here of course is knowingly. A human-looking D-Bee may very well be able to pull it off.

As per the dog boys, it depends on the situation. If they run off but don't actively engage the CS, Don't start shooting humans or what not (and the CS know about it) and can come up with a decent reason/story as to why they left, they can indeed be allowed back.

Pg 38 Lone Star:

"Just because a Dog Boy wanders away from his group or goes missing for a few days, or even a few weeks, does not automatically brand the soldier as a runaway. The CS will listen and often accept stories from loyal Psi-Hounds who claim to have gotten separated from their squad, lost, injured (and forced to find sanctuary until healed), or captured and escaped, especially if the Dog Boy is the one who makes an effort to rejoin the ranks of the CS military. Depending on how plausible the story is, and the animal's previous record (i.e. no disappearances or behavioral problems in the past) the canine soldier may be accepted back with open arms or placed on probation and watched.
Similarly, exuberant young Dog Boys in training are sometimes lured away or run off in search of adventure, which is a bit different than running away from the Coalition. These scamps are rounded up, dragged back, humiliated in front of the troops, punished (usually KP duty, scrubbing latrines, digging ditches, etc.) and put back into training.
However, it is made clear to them that while this one incident may be forgiven, future problems will lead to expulsion from the program — which means being experimented upon or terminated!"

[Pepsi Jedi]

As to the OP there are a few very small instances in the books where it mentions that high ranking/Rich members of the CS could have a few Dbee servants/slaves. You don't see it often. Once or twice and it's in chunks of text almost as a throw away sentence, but it's out there.

Now servants/slaves aren't full citizens. I don't think the CS -currently- has a program like the NGR where you put in 20 years as front line cannon fodder then are a second class citizen.

They COULD implement such a thing. The new Disavowed book looks to touch on it. If you read the write up, it has a bullet point to the effect of "what happens to the Dbee members of the team once the missions are done" sort of thing.

It shows that Emp Jr there is much more open minded than his dad. He works with the Vanguard (Magic) and now has the Disavowed (Dbees, dimensional hopping) Once the Emp dies, there could be radical sweeping change in the CS. Wouldn't be over night but it very easily could happen. And remember, Jr is the head of PR. He'd know how to 'sell' it to the CS populace.

[say652]

Soo at best a d-bee/magic user/mutant could achieve property status.
I.e. not even dogboy rights.
Wow

[Library Ogre]

Yep. A Wolfen *might* be able to pass as a dog boy for a while, but since he lacks a dog boy's senses, he'd be a bit suspect... and he'd be found out pretty much as soon as any major medical event happened. I'd also lay good odds that he's going to smell substantially different from even a wolf-based psi-hound.

[say652]

So even a human looking mutant could at best be considered property. "You're Lt. Danzigs pet, you must be lost. Let's get you home" the cs soldier stated shouldering his rifle and readying a leash.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't think a wolfen could 'pass' for a dog boy. Not for real. Dog boys, being created and put through the dog boy program are on record in a number of places. Wolves are rarely used, so their numbers are going to be small. It's not like you could just walk up to a CS base and go "Yeah I'm a dog boy. I'm coming home" You gotta have a name and your unit name etc. military number, what have you. If noone knows you and they can't find records that say "There's a wolf Dog boy named Tatertot, in unit Gamma Omega out of Ironheart" it's not like they'll just shrug and let you roll on in anyway.

Dog boys are also very customized genetic creations. A wolfen's dna is going to be radically different. While your average CS troop isn't going to be able to gene sequence stuff, the medical professionals sure can. they can slap on bionic parts in a routine fashion. A drop of blood run is goign to come back "ALIEN".

That's before you even get to the literal life long training and such that dog boys get from 'puppyhood' till deployment that the wolfen wouldn't be privy to.

In some frontier town, a wolfen might be able to fool some towns folk he's a dog boy, but not the cs/cs military itself.

[say652]

A human looking mutant. With the cs barcode tattoos.
A "pet"

[boxee]

The answer is no.

[ShadowLogan]

Yep. A Wolfen *might* be able to pass as a dog boy for a while, but since he lacks a dog boy's senses, he'd be a bit suspect... and he'd be found out pretty much as soon as any major medical event happened. I'd also lay good odds that he's going to smell substantially different from even a wolf-based psi-hound.

lacking the senses wouldn't make him suspect automatically. There is a gene fluke that results in Dog Boys losing all their sensitive powers 4% of the time (see mutation table for Dog Boys in RMB and/or RUE), granted they are all replaced w/physical psionic powers, which a Wolfen could possibly duplicate (not a guarantee I admit).

Now you are right a major medical event would certainly cause issue. Though anyone capable of using the information about the Identification Coding systems Dog Boys are subject to should also see through the ruse. RCB1r does mention several points that make them distinct (pg77-8, size and design of the legs being most noticeable, temperament and skills being another), and a Dog Boy is said to be able to tell the difference (though smell isn't identified), but your average human won't (unless they are genetic engineers)

[H.P. Hovercraft]

Soo at best a d-bee/magic user/mutant could achieve property status.
I.e. not even dogboy rights.
Wow

At best.

Other books have mentioned killing off or abandoning their own soldiers in cases of "irreversible contamination to outside sources."

The CS does not even consider humans from other time-lines/realities to be humans, but rather as "Dimensional Beings," and subject for extermination.

As the upcoming "Disavowed" book will likely shed some further light on this subject, if the CS is actively letting go of it's own soldiers/heroes who have given all for the sake of "humanity" then no...........a D-Bee/magic user/mutant could only HOPE to achieve property status.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................at best.

[boxee]

However CS allow deebees in the burbs it would seem.

[H.P. Hovercraft]

However CS allow deebees in the burbs it would seem.

True, but those aren't actual citizens.

[boxee]

Agreed, but its a start.

[Library Ogre]

However CS allow deebees in the burbs it would seem.

I get the feeling that the CS response to this would be "much like you allow cockroaches in your home."

[H.P. Hovercraft]

However CS allow deebees in the burbs it would seem.

I get the feeling that the CS response to this would be "much like you allow cockroaches in your home."

Exactly!

[dragonfett]

Just how big can Dog Boys get, because isn't the average Wolfen about the same height as many power armors?

[guardiandashi]

Just how big can Dog Boys get, because isn't the average Wolfen about the same height as many power armors?

if they get the "unusually large" they are ~7ft tall I mean for the dog boys

[boxee]

Dog boy 5-7 feet tall.

Wolfen 7-9 feet tall.

Coyles 6-8 feet tall.

Kankoran 4-5 feet +1d6 inches.

Alu 12 feet tall. (demon).

[SolCannibal]

So, shortish wolfen and coyles might try pulling the "large mutant dog boy" card but are kind of stretching it, while kankorans might have a much easier time and Alu are too big to pull off wolfen, what to say of dog boys... that said they might try playing god/ancestor spirit/totem for savage bands of either group, in Palladium, Rifts Earth or a bunch of other places.

MAYBE people in Lone Star might try something along those lines in the day Carl Prosek dies, if the divide between Bradford and Joseph II keeps widening, it could certainly serve to get a bigger chunk of Pecos on Bredford's side at least, i guess...

[say652]

Ok real question.
Could my Immortal Godling PowerSurge become a coalition citizen??
Or at least a Generals Pet??

[SolCannibal]

Ok real question.
Could my Immortal Godling PowerSurge become a coalition citizen??
Or at least a Generals Pet??

The CS is corrupt like hell - as long as the PC looks fairly human, is discret and serves well its highly-placed patrons, yeah, i would say most certainly possible.
But a dirty secret at best for you and your bosses and not a "true citizen" overall, to most probably be discarded and/or eliminated at the first sign of trouble.

[say652]

The characters focus is, punching jumping, blasting, stomping, clapping, lightning Charge, and is damn near indestructible. Also has The abilities to slow time, teleport short distances and pull Temporal Selves from time. No penalty if killed and only one needs to survive.
The character is designed to fight Armies or Supernatural Intelligences.
In an sdc environment he is more vulnerable but in an Mdc environment the characters full power is truly unlocked.

[The Beast]

Ok real question.
Could my Immortal Godling PowerSurge become a coalition citizen??
Or at least a Generals Pet??

At best he'd be given a quick death.

[say652]

So even though this one soldier is capable of fighting a few hundred soldiers at once, is completely niave, rather stupid and easily manipulated Is not coalition matetial.

Let my Hero destroy d-bees and magic.
Since he has no psionic or magic powers, doesn't use equipment. And seldom expects to get paid.
His abilities are super powers he is a mutant.
Yes he is a supernatural creature as a megahero.
A costumed Superhero.
It would be amazing for a "Superhero" could be misled by the coalition into using his powers for humanity.
In his dimension he is a champion for humans, magic isn't common psionics even rarer.
Imma try to post an updated
So an easy mislead would put an incredibly destructive force in the coalitions control.

[Nekira Sudacne]

So even though this one soldier is capable of fighting a few hundred soldiers at once, is completely niave, rather stupid and easily manipulated Is not coalition matetial.

Let my Hero destroy d-bees and magic.
Since he has no psionic or magic powers, doesn't use equipment. And seldom expects to get paid.
His abilities are super powers he is a mutant.
Yes he is a supernatural creature as a megahero.
A costumed Superhero.
It would be amazing for a "Superhero" could be misled by the coalition into using his powers for humanity.
In his dimension he is a champion for humans, magic isn't common psionics even rarer.
Imma try to post an updated
So an easy mislead would put an incredibly destructive force in the coalitions control.

Your GM can do whatever he wants in his game, but the offical rule is they would turn him away at best and try to shoot him at worst. while some, INDIVIDUAL CS guys might think they are wasting a lot of potential good, plenty of others, including the proseks, would be of the mind that it's not worth the risk to deal with ANY supernatural being, ESPECIALLY one of such devistating power who might turn on them later on.

Think of it--they can manipulate him today, but will that always be true? the fear that he might decide he dosn't like how the Proseks run things would more or less garentee that they would shut him out, or more likely try to kill him.

[SolCannibal]

So... you expect the Coalition to consider changing their policy on dealing with non-humans, for the sake of your character, while definitely fitting their "dangerously powerful human-seeming D-bee" because of how awesome he is (as a tool)? Honestly?

On your own words "Immortal Godling PowerSurge" - the CS might not have very detailed or effective power/origin classification methodologies, but just from that i can guess your character would have human looks, a power set that might or not be identified as supernatural by their Psi-Stalkers & Dog-boys psychic senses (because while it's certainly open to debate and doesn't have to be literal, the terms "immortal" and "godling" do offer themselves mightly to a supernatural interpretation of your power source) and a power level somewhere between dragon hatchling, gargoyle lord or greater demon.

So, should a CS grunt or officer trust this being that can outfight a SAMAS pilot while going commando because it looks human, sounds sincere and the Psi-Stalkers & Dog-boys (apparently) did not detect any whiff of magic or dishonesty from it, ignoring the possibility one might possess some special power that masks those features or be the misinformed tool of a greater (and possibly dangerous) power? Know what fits reasonably well into that description?

A Young-Dragonmage (from Psyscape) - see how many beings will trust them, even though individuals may technically be pretty good.

It's the Coalition we are speaking of "benefit of doubt" is not their usual deal, one might have much better luck with Manistique or Ishpeming, maybe the NGR or the Republic of Japan in other lands, but really goes against the grain of the CS methodology - though as i said before, circunstances like a less clear idea of the PC's actual power level, a self-serving corrupt CS patron and others might make it possible for such a PC to exist as a underground black ops agent of the CS, in a completely "plausible denial, will abandon like a hot, toxic potato at the first sign of trouble/exposure" basis.

Also, how long would the CS be able to "mislead" this character? What kind of society was it a hero upon? If anything like a western democratic society from the 50s to the present, many of it ideals would be classified as "dangerously subversive" by CS social standards - social standards that are admitedly somewhere between south african apartheid and nazi germany.

Now do tell, me what kind of superhero do you see being misled in supporting that as a "good cause" for long?

And I'm not even going into the fascist to morbid to cartoon villain iconography or their "educational segregation policies for the sake of security" policies...

[Svartalf]

Ok real question.
Could my Immortal Godling PowerSurge become a coalition citizen??
Or at least a Generals Pet??

The CS is corrupt like hell - as long as the PC looks fairly human, is discret and serves well its highly-placed patrons, yeah, i would say most certainly possible.
But a dirty secret at best for you and your bosses and not a "true citizen" overall, to most probably be discarded and/or eliminated at the first sign of trouble.

Nope, he could be a general's pet, sure, Lyboc and Desmond Bradford have done worse... but become a real citizen, never, he's a soupie and under constant death sentence, the best he can get is having it suspended for eminent service...

[Library Ogre]

Really, it works quite well if you think of many supernatural beings as Superman, and the Coalition as Lex Luthor. Superman has shown, time and again, that he's fighting for humanity, that he's doing his best to protect people. But Lex Luthor will never accept that he doesn't have an ulterior motive, that he isn't somehow dragging humanity down with his "help."

It doesn't how many dbees you kill if you're still an alien.

[SolCannibal]

Really, it works quite well if you think of many supernatural beings as Superman, and the Coalition as Lex Luthor. Superman has shown, time and again, that he's fighting for humanity, that he's doing his best to protect people. But Lex Luthor will never accept that he doesn't have an ulterior motive, that he isn't somehow dragging humanity down with his "help."

It doesn't how many dbees you kill if you're still an alien.

A good way of looking at it indeed, considering how Luthor's hatred/envy of Superman has slowly evolved/bloomed into a general anti-metahuman "you diminish humanity's accomplishments, so you must go" - a pretty hypocritical one too, as Luthor might have enough resources in his business to equip/sponsor a superteam or two of hardware-based heroes to do as much or more "for the common people" if he sincerely cared...

There's also the fact the CS uses these lingering anti-human/anti-magic/alien invaders prejudice and fears to fan the fires of war and conquest. Preserving this climate of hatred and paranoia harkening to the Time of the Rifts serves to justify its militaristic expansionist agenda through a "earth for earth natives, unification of humanity for the world's liberation/salvation" discourse. So you can bet talks of a change for tolerance won't be coming anytime soon without major changes in their power elite.

Remember, they were already paranoid about non-humans and magic before the Proseks, when their rejection of amicable diplomatic contact offended Noustrous and Federation of Magic's leaders and sparked the original war between the two groups, or the Coalition's disassembling and expulsion of their own spellcaster units , that lead to the making of the Vanguard (instead of a group of much more vengeful, resentful or disgruntled vets, because the CS are just that damn lucky).

[say652]

So... you expect the Coalition to consider changing their policy on dealing with non-humans, for the sake of your character, while definitely fitting their "dangerously powerful human-seeming D-bee" because of how awesome he is (as a tool)? Honestly?

On your own words "Immortal Godling PowerSurge" - the CS might not have very detailed or effective power/origin classification methodologies, but just from that i can guess your character would have human looks, a power set that might or not be identified as supernatural by their Psi-Stalkers & Dog-boys psychic senses (because while it's certainly open to debate and doesn't have to be literal, the terms "immortal" and "godling" do offer themselves mightly to a supernatural interpretation of your power source) and a power level somewhere between dragon hatchling, gargoyle lord or greater demon.

So, should a CS grunt or officer trust this being that can outfight a SAMAS pilot while going commando because it looks human, sounds sincere and the Psi-Stalkers & Dog-boys (apparently) did not detect any whiff of magic or dishonesty from it, ignoring the possibility one might possess some special power that masks those features or be the misinformed tool of a greater (and possibly dangerous) power? Know what fits reasonably well into that description?

A Young-Dragonmage (from Psyscape) - see how many beings will trust them, even though individuals may technically be pretty good.

It's the Coalition we are speaking of "benefit of doubt" is not their usual deal, one might have much better luck with Manistique or Ishpeming, maybe the NGR or the Republic of Japan in other lands, but really goes against the grain of the CS methodology - though as i said before, circunstances like a less clear idea of the PC's actual power level, a self-serving corrupt CS patron and others might make it possible for such a PC to exist as a underground black ops agent of the CS, in a completely "plausible denial, will abandon like a hot, toxic potato at the first sign of trouble/exposure" basis.

Also, how long would the CS be able to "mislead" this character? What kind of society was it a hero upon? If anything like a western democratic society from the 50s to the present, many of it ideals would be classified as "dangerously subversive" by CS social standards - social standards that are admitedly somewhere between south african apartheid and nazi germany.

Now do tell, me what kind of superhero do you see being misled in supporting that as a "good cause" for long?

And I'm not even going into the fascist to morbid to cartoon villain iconography or their "educational segregation policies for the sake of security" policies...

Truth betold the character xares very little for mortal races. He shows off and plays to the crowd for cheers and highfives.
As a son of Thor he is full well aware he will never be a greater gero than him.
He also is often approached by Apollo Eros and Artemis. His power set makes him more like Zues than Thor.

[taalismn]

Worse, overt displays of prowess just underline and emphasize how potentially DANGEROUS the character is.
Destroy a Xiticix hive all on your own?
The CS sees a destroyed CS town in the future.
And this guy has an interest in the Coalition States?
Bad news. How can we counter this eminent threat?

[say652]

So then it boils down to a discussion of terms.

1). Free housing and food for him and his pet mini-horse Nordstrom.
2).Free spandex replacement. And other things an expense account.
3). Two pitbull Dogboys to drive and do other menial tasks.Actually can I get a few more dogs.
All of them MUST let me pet them.

In return 300 years of loyal Law abiding Coalition Operative.
A strong empire grows, in this harsh world this is Humanities only hope for survival. What kind of hero lets the Humans die off?
Not really wanting to quibble over J walking or Trespassing penalties.
And won last thing, when directed at a target I prefer to lead the charge. The other units provide sniper cover and worst case a laser lock to send in missiles.

Let's save Humanity. You lead I smash things and don't ask questions.

[SolCannibal]

Truth betold the character cares very little for mortal races. He shows off and plays to the crowd for cheers and highfives.
As a son of Thor he is full well aware he will never be a greater hero than him.
He also is often approached by Apollo, Eros and Artemis. His power set makes him more like Zeus than Thor.

Well, with that kind of family background and contacts, i would say it's pretty certain the CS wouldn't want you even gift-wrapped in goldfoil with diamond studs. Even though not built with standard spells it's a pretty safe bet the guy reeks of supernatural and his associates paint him as strongly involved with the agendas of supernatural intelligences. Damn, even some magic-friendly countries might keep a close eye on you, in case you start cults or try to turn a nation toward the agenda of some pantheon or another. Not saying they wouldn't work with you, quite the contrary, but might give you all the attenttion of a foreign general doing some (unknown) business in one's country.

But back on track, so he's in it for the show and glory - sounds like him associating with Lazlo, Manistique, Ishpeming (Northern Gun) or Kingsdale would be much more probable. Those are places where he can really show off safe in generating more awe than fear, the last two in particular having arenas and spectacles that might be pretty amenable to "performances" on his part.

That said, mostly the same also applies to the Splugorth's Atlantis, as it can be a hell of a place for a godling to make a name playing on their arenas for personal enjoyment, Commodus-style.

So then it boils down to a discussion of terms.

1). Free housing and food for him and his pet mini-horse Nordstrom.
2). Free spandex replacement. And other things an expense account.
3). Two pitbull Dogboys to drive and do other menial tasks.Actually can I get a few more dogs.
All of them MUST let me pet them.

In return 300 years of loyal Law abiding Coalition Operative.
A strong empire grows, in this harsh world this is Humanities only hope for survival. What kind of hero lets the Humans die off?
Not really wanting to quibble over J walking or Trespassing penalties.
And one last thing, when directed at a target I prefer to lead the charge. The other units provide sniper cover and worst case a laser lock to send in missiles.

Let's save Humanity. You lead I smash things and don't ask questions.

No deal, simply put guy is way too much for almost anyone in the CS to actually trust as it currently stands. Not to mention the whole "i'm in charge" vibe dripping in every line of these "terms".

[say652]

I did the Atlantis Arena sports. Fun.
Also got him fired from service in Greenbrook, he was only reinstated because of the dragon horde attack. His further actions earned him the pony.

[say652]

So an embassy then.
All I want to do is kill nonhumans in human lands.
I need a place to stay and I have a pet Mini-Horse and no problem assisting the Coalition in any and all goals as requested.
I am here for 300 years to learn war and being a Hero for Humanity.

[Nekira Sudacne]

So an embassy then.
All I want to do is kill nonhumans in human lands.
I need a place to stay and I have a pet Mini-Horse and no problem assisting the Coalition in any and all goals as requested.
I am here for 300 years to learn war and being a Hero for Humanity.

All the CS wants is for all supernatural beings, including him, to either leave earth or die--there is no common ground to make a deal on. he is WAY too powerful for them to trust. After all, with 300 years to learn how the CS operates, he could just spend that time plotting to take over, assuming he keeps his word (and what filthy D-Bee would EVER keep their word?) and waits that long to enact his master plan to enslave humanity?

the fact he dosn't want to do that is irrelevent, they will beleive that's what he wants, because that's what they beleive ALL supernatural beings want. why would they think he's an exception?

[Mack]

So an embassy then.
All I want to do is kill nonhumans in human lands.
I need a place to stay and I have a pet Mini-Horse and no problem assisting the Coalition in any and all goals as requested.
I am here for 300 years to learn war and being a Hero for Humanity.

Notable reference (bold and italics are in the original text):

Super-powered and inhuman looking human mutants are considered to be inhuman monsters or D-bees and are NEVER knowingly alled into the cities for any reason. They may even be "purged" from CS territory (a CS euphemism for "exterminated").

Best bet would be to find a sympathetic field commander who's willing to hire your character as an S-Spec. S-Spec details are on CWC p53.

[say652]

With enough negotiations this could take place.
Maybe not in chi-town but possible.

[SolCannibal]

With enough negotiations this could take place.
Maybe not in chi-town but possible.

Most probably Lone Star, due to relative distance from Chi-Town, high number of mutant animals at disposal and Bradford's godhood and megalomania issues.

[say652]

A research facility..... not quite the front line stuff they make action figures for but, its a start.
Be even better if Bradford tried to pass him off as one of his "Genetic Experiments" lol

[Nekira Sudacne]

With enough negotiations this could take place.
Maybe not in chi-town but possible.

How do you negotiate with people who refuse to negotiate?

[SolCannibal]

With enough negotiations this could take place.
Maybe not in chi-town but possible.

How do you negotiate with people who refuse to negotiate?

I think he might be thinking more on a "particular malleable bigwig" level than a "CS government/typical officer" level.

That said, if all he wants is masses to applaud his badassness, a set of dog-boy pets and a state behind his back, a bunch of other places where one might find feral/rogue dog-boys in action could be far more viable alternatives. Damn, a bunch of cities in the Vampire Kingdoms might have rulers quite amenable to that.

[say652]

Chibola most likely.
Hmmmm.
Lots of Vampires, Lycanthropes, and a rogue city of human hating cats.

[say652]

So if I build a large enough legend in South America a transfer stateside might just happen.

[taalismn]

[

That said, if all he wants is masses to applaud his badassness, a set of dog-boy pets and a state behind his back, a bunch of other places where one might find feral/rogue dog-boys in action could be far more viable alternatives. Damn, a bunch of cities in the Vampire Kingdoms might have rulers quite amenable to that.

Or Pecos Raiders. They're pretty liberal.