Chi, PPE, and ISP oh my.

[Blue_Lion]

In PB system there are 3 deferent types of special resource attributes. Each is different but there is in the rules to an attempt to remove one of them. Chi the easiest of the three to generate but linked to only one game has been the subject of attempts to be converted into one of the others.

In my mind this seams wrong and fails for several reason. But to look at it you need to look at the idea as a whole and see what does not work. The steps of this would be to look at the nature of Chi and how its rules work. The nature of ISP compared to chi. The nature PPE and how it compares to chi. And how changing some power don’t make sense.

Chi is in every thing and every one every place has at least 3 chi negative or positive depending on the location. Chi is easiest of the resources to generate it is equal to PE + any marital arts modifier no rolling needed. A person without chi, chi that has disrupted or the wrong chi, can not heal naturally. Positive chi is life healing and growth, negative chi is attached to death decay and forces of evil.

Converting Chi/ISP missies the fact that every one has it as most people do not have ISP. ISP is rolled with a ME modifier while chi is attached to the body. There is no negative ISP so it causes issues with some martial arts abilities. If the rule for Chi combat is applied to ISP every one without at least 1 ISP will not be able to heal and slowly die.

Converting Chi/PPE makes a little more sense. They both are PE based and every living thing has PPE. The main issue with it is the lack of negative PPE and of some chi moves and the existence of chi magic. Chi magic is set up to use a different resource pool than chi abilities. Can convert PPE to chi and vice versa so this converting would make chi magic uses have several flaws in them as they are all mystic marital artist.

Issues with converting chi powers and marital arts techniques to other systems. (I recently got the new conversion book 1)

Variable chi abilities such as soft chi, and chi combat. These powers are set to do X for 1 chi, in conversion book 1 they have a flat cost witch does not seam to account for scaling them and at the lowest level not quite use full most the time.

Dragon chi- in conversion book 1 cost 20 ISP but says it works normal, it is a chi drawing skill so if it cost ISP and draws ISP can easily be either broken or useless skill depending on ISP gain rate and duration.

Negative chi control- from N&SS source book Mystic china. If it is ISP/Chi then they gain control of any one with ISP/Chi. Witch can lead to be easily broken ability.

Cost to activate always on powers such as martial arts awareness witch is active even when the charter is distracted makes no sense. Most of the martial arts techniques that are always on are intended as a flat bonus. A few are activated for an action and the art of breaking uses all attacks. This may be an attempt to balance the powers to what is in rifts if applied to classes without them conserved part of the class.

Atemi abilities- The cost to use them may be do to the really powerful nature of them. And I can understand the idea. Using chi instead of ISP/PPE might make a greater restriction with most people only having CHI=PE.

Body Harding- I admit I don’t like the charter is flat out MDC all the time I would favor a activation cost more on line with rifts Japan than the ISP system. If used off of CHI 2 or 1 chi for most martial artist with it will be usable but not over powering. Plus most the time they are SDC/HP

[glitterboy2098]

you might find this site to be useful. Kuseru was one of the moderators on the boards some years back, and pretty much the N&SS guru.. he idn't like the way the two editions of conversion book 1 handled things either. mostly the same reasons too.

[Colt47]

Yup I use his site for pretty much everything.

[Nightmask]

I think this makes me glad I didn't get the China books or the revised Conversion book, too much trying to fit Chi to something else instead of leaving it distinct as it should be.

[Chronicle]

Personally i think the 3 should be merged in some way.

[Colt47]

Chi just works a lot better for the few areas of specialty it has compared to the magic and psionics. There is some logic with trying to merge it with inner strength, since technically Chi could be called inner strength or vitality, but the ISP system as built can't support Chi without modification to how it operates and exists. It's actually easier to convert psionics to Chi Based powers.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Personally, I think Chi should just be an ancient way to describe P.P.E., and a way that didn't describe it accurately either due to limited understanding.

~ Josh

[Colt47]

Personally, I think Chi should just be an ancient way to describe P.P.E., and a way that didn't describe it accurately either due to limited understanding.

~ Josh

It's not impossible to make Chi "magic based", but there are aspects of the system that have to be properly accounted for: Negative / Positive Polarity, Chi Magic, power use, and chi infection. All of these things can be accounted for in PPE, but starting PPE for living beings would have to be altered a bit. The part that needs the most work is the Chi attack and defense mechanic and the Chi Magic, which makes use of dual power sources. Also, Chi users are far better at drawing power than a typical magic user, since they generally can get a recharge at any location using dragon chi or dark chi. Actually, another thing that needs to be handled is a way to simplify all the hand to hand skills present in Ninja's and Super Spies. Ideally, having a creation table that lets the player pick aspects of his hand to hand style would be the best, such as picking "Internal" and "Soft" giving him something like Tai Chi, whose open palm strike could be converted to a hand to hand power selection.

Someone could probably write a sizable Martial arts and Chi sourcebook for Rifts.

[Blue_Lion]

Actualy chi users have a greater understanding of chi than magic users do of PPE.
The mystics of chi have devoted life times to understanding and defining it, while most mages are not as well trained on the nature of magic. I whould think with the lessor taping abilty and needing more of it that PPE whould be primitive compared to chi. Most chi users have less than 40 chi while any PPE user has much much higher.

[Nightmask]

Actualy chi users have a greater understanding of chi than magic users do of PPE.
The mystics of chi have devoted life times to understanding and defining it, while most mages are not as well trained on the nature of magic. I whould think with the lessor taping abilty and needing more of it that PPE whould be primitive compared to chi. Most chi users have less than 40 chi while any PPE user has much much higher.

That has more to do with a really ridiculous restriction when it comes to their MA being locked at 3rd level (unlike nearly every other character class in the entire Palladium multiverse) than indicative of some kind of greater insight on the part of Chi masters into chi than spellcasters have into PPE. If anything it's the other way around, with the supposed chi masters having little chi to work with and a serious lack in PPE (which all but one of their spells require) whereas the standard mage has developed massive amounts of PPE to work far grander magicks.

[Damian Magecraft]

In PB system there are 3 deferent types of special resource attributes. Each is different but there is in the rules to an attempt to remove one of them. Chi the easiest of the three to generate but linked to only one game has been the subject of attempts to be converted into one of the others.

In my mind this seams wrong and fails for several reason. But to look at it you need to look at the idea as a whole and see what does not work. The steps of this would be to look at the nature of Chi and how its rules work. The nature of ISP compared to chi. The nature PPE and how it compares to chi. And how changing some power don’t make sense.

Chi is in every thing and every one every place has at least 3 chi negative or positive depending on the location. Chi is easiest of the resources to generate it is equal to PE + any marital arts modifier no rolling needed. A person without chi, chi that has disrupted or the wrong chi, can not heal naturally. Positive chi is life healing and growth, negative chi is attached to death decay and forces of evil.

Converting Chi/ISP missies the fact that every one has it as most people do not have ISP. ISP is rolled with a ME modifier while chi is attached to the body. There is no negative ISP so it causes issues with some martial arts abilities. If the rule for Chi combat is applied to ISP every one without at least 1 ISP will not be able to heal and slowly die.

Converting Chi/PPE makes a little more sense. They both are PE based and every living thing has PPE. The main issue with it is the lack of negative PPE and of some chi moves and the existence of chi magic. Chi magic is set up to use a different resource pool than chi abilities. Can convert PPE to chi and vice versa so this converting would make chi magic uses have several flaws in them as they are all mystic marital artist.

Issues with converting chi powers and marital arts techniques to other systems. (I recently got the new conversion book 1)

Variable chi abilities such as soft chi, and chi combat. These powers are set to do X for 1 chi, in conversion book 1 they have a flat cost witch does not seam to account for scaling them and at the lowest level not quite use full most the time.

Dragon chi- in conversion book 1 cost 20 ISP but says it works normal, it is a chi drawing skill so if it cost ISP and draws ISP can easily be either broken or useless skill depending on ISP gain rate and duration.

Negative chi control- from N&SS source book Mystic china. If it is ISP/Chi then they gain control of any one with ISP/Chi. Witch can lead to be easily broken ability.

Cost to activate always on powers such as martial arts awareness witch is active even when the charter is distracted makes no sense. Most of the martial arts techniques that are always on are intended as a flat bonus. A few are activated for an action and the art of breaking uses all attacks. This may be an attempt to balance the powers to what is in rifts if applied to classes without them conserved part of the class.

Atemi abilities- The cost to use them may be do to the really powerful nature of them. And I can understand the idea. Using chi instead of ISP/PPE might make a greater restriction with most people only having CHI=PE.

Body Harding- I admit I don’t like the charter is flat out MDC all the time I would favor a activation cost more on line with rifts Japan than the ISP system. If used off of CHI 2 or 1 chi for most martial artist with it will be usable but not over powering. Plus most the time they are SDC/HP

I toyed with a standard conversion for PPE to ISP to CHI a long while back...
Basing it on extrapolations from references found in various spells, both N&SS books, and the original BTS books I came up with the following...
1 PPE is equal to 2 ISP which is equal to 3 positive and 3 negative CHI
BTS 1 established that 1 ppe point would buy you 2 isp for you isp pool.
the spell convert CHI to PPE establishes that 6 chi equals 1 ppe.
but since the CHI magic does not require the chi to be either positive or negative; in the interest of sane design I opted to go with PPE being a raw mix of the two...
In game terms it boils down to a 1:2:3 ratio with the type of chi determined by the individual.
Where things get get funky is not the conversion itself but the interactions of the abilities themselves.
For example how does see the invisible interact with chi invisibility?
how does it interact with Psi invisibility?
How does Awareness (Martial Art Technique) inter act with Psi invisibility, and the magic spells?
and so on...
Before allowing the N&S MAs and their respective MAPs into your games you will need to address those questions for your self. (I have my answers but they may not be suitable for your game style.)
Another series of questions that will occure (especially if you tie the three pools together) is how will Chi Combat affect mages and psis?
can a chi attack damage the other pools?
etc...

[Mercdog]

I've always viewed chi as something of a bastard child between PPE and ISP. A simplistic analogy that I use is that of a sword making process.

PPE represents the raw materials of fire and metal,
ISP represents the will of the forgemaster beating the metal into shape,
and Chi is the metal made stronger and given functional form to be used effectively.

That said, for my N&S revamp notes, I changed the way Chi is determined by making the base Chi the average of PE and ME. (PE+ME divided by 2= Base Chi.

[Colt47]

I've always found it easiest to just use Chi as is and apply the following modifiers in Rifts to make sure it isn't broken against certain monsters:

Minor Supernatural being or creature of magic: x2 PE in Chi
Major Supernatural being (or a dragon that isn't a hatchling): x10 PE in Chi
Alien Intelligences, Gods, Demon Lords, etc: x20 PE in Chi and must have at least a Chi infection of 10 to no longer be able to regenerate Chi.

Characters with negative chi infection can recover if exposed to a place of strong positive chi (6 points or greater). All Ley Lines are considered strong places of positive chi and Ley line nexus have especially high levels of chi (usually 12 points). The justification for Leylines is that they are a natural phenomena much like a river or stream, and the increase in magic flow has likewise strengthened the amount of ambient positive chi nearby.

Also capped body chi so that a player can't use more than 3 points of positive chi per single attribute per level of experience.

[Damian Magecraft]

I've always found it easiest to just use Chi as is and apply the following modifiers in Rifts to make sure it isn't broken against certain monsters:

Minor Supernatural being or creature of magic: x2 PE in Chi
Major Supernatural being (or a dragon that isn't a hatchling): x10 PE in Chi
Alien Intelligences, Gods, Demon Lords, etc: x20 PE in Chi and must have at least a Chi infection of 10 to no longer be able to regenerate Chi.

Characters with negative chi infection can recover if exposed to a place of strong positive chi (6 points or greater). All Ley Lines are considered strong places of positive chi and Ley line nexus have especially high levels of chi (usually 12 points). The justification for Leylines is that they are a natural phenomena much like a river or stream, and the increase in magic flow has likewise strengthened the amount of ambient positive chi nearby.

Also capped body chi so that a player can't use more than 3 points of positive chi per single attribute per level of experience.

I like the multipliers but I would not call Ley lines and nexi, sources of "just" positive chi but thats me...
But even that brings up questions on how devastating is a spirit burst to the undead? or non oni demons? since SB does damage to those filled with the opposite chi...
also which creatures outside of asia would be neg chi critters?
the full ramifications of introducing N&SS into other palladium settings is not just a plug go affair here folks.

[Colt47]

I've always found it easiest to just use Chi as is and apply the following modifiers in Rifts to make sure it isn't broken against certain monsters:

Minor Supernatural being or creature of magic: x2 PE in Chi
Major Supernatural being (or a dragon that isn't a hatchling): x10 PE in Chi
Alien Intelligences, Gods, Demon Lords, etc: x20 PE in Chi and must have at least a Chi infection of 10 to no longer be able to regenerate Chi.

Characters with negative chi infection can recover if exposed to a place of strong positive chi (6 points or greater). All Ley Lines are considered strong places of positive chi and Ley line nexus have especially high levels of chi (usually 12 points). The justification for Leylines is that they are a natural phenomena much like a river or stream, and the increase in magic flow has likewise strengthened the amount of ambient positive chi nearby.

Also capped body chi so that a player can't use more than 3 points of positive chi per single attribute per level of experience.

I like the multipliers but I would not call Ley lines and nexi, sources of "just" positive chi but thats me...
But even that brings up questions on how devastating is a spirit burst to the undead? or non oni demons? since SB does damage to those filled with the opposite chi...
also which creatures outside of asia would be neg chi critters?
the full ramifications of introducing N&SS into other palladium settings is not just a plug go affair here folks.

Yeah I didn't go that far as most people tend to swing one way or the other with the supernatural. I go with Kuseru on the subject of what is negative chi and what isn't.

[Damian Magecraft]

I've always found it easiest to just use Chi as is and apply the following modifiers in Rifts to make sure it isn't broken against certain monsters:

Minor Supernatural being or creature of magic: x2 PE in Chi
Major Supernatural being (or a dragon that isn't a hatchling): x10 PE in Chi
Alien Intelligences, Gods, Demon Lords, etc: x20 PE in Chi and must have at least a Chi infection of 10 to no longer be able to regenerate Chi.

Characters with negative chi infection can recover if exposed to a place of strong positive chi (6 points or greater). All Ley Lines are considered strong places of positive chi and Ley line nexus have especially high levels of chi (usually 12 points). The justification for Leylines is that they are a natural phenomena much like a river or stream, and the increase in magic flow has likewise strengthened the amount of ambient positive chi nearby.

Also capped body chi so that a player can't use more than 3 points of positive chi per single attribute per level of experience.

I like the multipliers but I would not call Ley lines and nexi, sources of "just" positive chi but thats me...
But even that brings up questions on how devastating is a spirit burst to the undead? or non oni demons? since SB does damage to those filled with the opposite chi...
also which creatures outside of asia would be neg chi critters?
the full ramifications of introducing N&SS into other palladium settings is not just a plug go affair here folks.

Yeah I didn't go that far as most people tend to swing one way or the other with the supernatural. I go with Kuseru on the subject of what is negative chi and what isn't.

yeah that was not a subject I agreed with him on at all... his definitions were a tad too narrow if you ask me.

[Blue_Lion]

Actualy chi users have a greater understanding of chi than magic users do of PPE.
The mystics of chi have devoted life times to understanding and defining it, while most mages are not as well trained on the nature of magic. I whould think with the lessor taping abilty and needing more of it that PPE whould be primitive compared to chi. Most chi users have less than 40 chi while any PPE user has much much higher.

That has more to do with a really ridiculous restriction when it comes to their MA being locked at 3rd level (unlike nearly every other character class in the entire Palladium multiverse) than indicative of some kind of greater insight on the part of Chi masters into chi than spellcasters have into PPE. If anything it's the other way around, with the supposed chi masters having little chi to work with and a serious lack in PPE (which all but one of their spells require) whereas the standard mage has developed massive amounts of PPE to work far grander magicks.

I don't think that has anything to do with what I said. I may have the word mystic but was refering to chi users not chi mages. And not all chi mages have there Martial arts locked 1 has a set one that levels with him. My point was that people that use chi have it more well defined than mages, two mages will may not look at magic the same way. To use chi abilties takes less than spells so they do not need to build a pool as high. With dragon chi they usaly get all the chi they need.

Note on ley lines-they whould carry both positive and negitve chi so whould not harm either type of chi creature. I whould think that ley lines whould not be pure chi in either direction to restore disrupted chi. But a water fall or peacefull wilderness lake whould for positive chi, and a underground of a cemetory or place of ritural sacerfice whould for negitive chi.

[Colt47]

Actualy chi users have a greater understanding of chi than magic users do of PPE.
The mystics of chi have devoted life times to understanding and defining it, while most mages are not as well trained on the nature of magic. I whould think with the lessor taping abilty and needing more of it that PPE whould be primitive compared to chi. Most chi users have less than 40 chi while any PPE user has much much higher.

That has more to do with a really ridiculous restriction when it comes to their MA being locked at 3rd level (unlike nearly every other character class in the entire Palladium multiverse) than indicative of some kind of greater insight on the part of Chi masters into chi than spellcasters have into PPE. If anything it's the other way around, with the supposed chi masters having little chi to work with and a serious lack in PPE (which all but one of their spells require) whereas the standard mage has developed massive amounts of PPE to work far grander magicks.

I don't think that has anything to do with what I said. I may have the word mystic but was refering to chi users not chi mages. And not all chi mages have there Martial arts locked 1 has a set one that levels with him. My point was that people that use chi have it more well defined than mages, two mages will may not look at magic the same way. To use chi abilties takes less than spells so they do not need to build a pool as high. With dragon chi they usaly get all the chi they need.

Note on ley lines-they whould carry both positive and negitve chi so whould not harm either type of chi creature. I whould think that ley lines whould not be pure chi in either direction to restore disrupted chi. But a water fall or peacefull wilderness lake whould for positive chi, and a underground of a cemetory or place of ritural sacerfice whould for negitive chi.

The only reason I mention ley lines removing negative chi infection is that otherwise most players would have no recourse in certain settings. What exactly would a person do out west in the badlands for example if he had negative chi infection?

[Killer Cyborg]

Personally, I think Chi should just be an ancient way to describe P.P.E., and a way that didn't describe it accurately either due to limited understanding.

~ Josh

Why?

[Nightmask]

Actualy chi users have a greater understanding of chi than magic users do of PPE.
The mystics of chi have devoted life times to understanding and defining it, while most mages are not as well trained on the nature of magic. I whould think with the lessor taping abilty and needing more of it that PPE whould be primitive compared to chi. Most chi users have less than 40 chi while any PPE user has much much higher.

That has more to do with a really ridiculous restriction when it comes to their MA being locked at 3rd level (unlike nearly every other character class in the entire Palladium multiverse) than indicative of some kind of greater insight on the part of Chi masters into chi than spellcasters have into PPE. If anything it's the other way around, with the supposed chi masters having little chi to work with and a serious lack in PPE (which all but one of their spells require) whereas the standard mage has developed massive amounts of PPE to work far grander magicks.

I don't think that has anything to do with what I said. I may have the word mystic but was refering to chi users not chi mages. And not all chi mages have there Martial arts locked 1 has a set one that levels with him. My point was that people that use chi have it more well defined than mages, two mages will may not look at magic the same way. To use chi abilties takes less than spells so they do not need to build a pool as high. With dragon chi they usaly get all the chi they need.

Note on ley lines-they whould carry both positive and negitve chi so whould not harm either type of chi creature. I whould think that ley lines whould not be pure chi in either direction to restore disrupted chi. But a water fall or peacefull wilderness lake whould for positive chi, and a underground of a cemetory or place of ritural sacerfice whould for negitive chi.

The only reason I mention ley lines removing negative chi infection is that otherwise most players would have no recourse in certain settings. What exactly would a person do out west in the badlands for example if he had negative chi infection?

Even the Badlands should have places of high positive chi, while they may be called that it doesn't mean that they're a horrible place of negative chi (although some places would of course qualify). But Ley lines should provide a good range of positive chi given they arise and are more tightly linked with positive chi/life than death.