Armor Repair Cost

[drakinn]

Unless I missed it and my math was off the repair costs are wierd. Last night I GMed and a guy with a mountaineer ATV took 86 points of damage and I used the game shield for repair costs and it came to more than 300000 credits so I gave them a break down to 160000 and that is still three times the cost of a gas engine ATV. I have noticed the same problem with body armor. does someone have a better system to figure out repair costs that is reasonable? as I figure it out the vehicle costs 64,000 base gas and repair at 8,000 per 10 MDC would cost 720000. I figure 10 credits per MD for raw material is more reasonable then add an hourly repair rate of 175-250 per MD

what do you all think?

[drakinn]

I guess I am saying the costs don't fit supply and demand laws and they aren't realistic

[Dustin Fireblade]

Unless I missed it and my math was off the repair costs are wierd. Last night I GMed and a guy with a mountaineer ATV took 86 points of damage and I used the game shield for repair costs and it came to more than 300000 credits so I gave them a break down to 160000 and that is still three times the cost of a gas engine ATV. I have noticed the same problem with body armor. does someone have a better system to figure out repair costs that is reasonable? as I figure it out the vehicle costs 64,000 base gas and repair at 8,000 per 10 MDC would cost 720000. I figure 10 credits per MD for raw material is more reasonable then add an hourly repair rate of 175-250 per MD

what do you all think?

Repair costs are totally made up without any thought put into them.


I slashed the prices by taking the last zero off. (so instead of 7000 credits to repair 10 MDC for plate armor, it was only 750)

[SkyeFyre]

That's the way it is in the books and that's how I play it. The materials are hard to come by and it's unlikely that you're going to find these vehicles and equipment for brand new.

The game is supposed to be gritty. I know you wouldn't think it by the number of MDC things in the books but if you look at the average income for characters vs the cost of repairs and equipment it paints a pretty clear picture. The world of Rifts is a very dangerous place. Life is hard.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't have my book OR my game shield handy at the moment.
Are the repair costs on the Game Shield the same as in SB1?

[drakinn]

My point is that how can you sell a complete new vehicle for 64000 and the charge 740000 just to repair the armor if the supplies are so rare?

[drakinn]

I don't have my book OR my game shield handy at the moment.
Are the repair costs on the Game Shield the same as in SB1?

they are the same

[Killer Cyborg]

My point is that how can you sell a complete new vehicle for 64000 and the charge 740000 just to repair the armor if the supplies are so rare?

Because it's not always a matter of supplies.
MDC materials aren't just normal metals only stronger; they're bizarre ceramics, non-ferrous metal alloys, ceramic/metal compounds, and/ or high-tech plastics.
You can't just spackle in some MDC Bondo and fill in holes in the armor.
You can't just weld a plate over a hole.

Depending on what equipment and techniques are required to construct MDC armor, and what equipment and techniques are necessary to repair it, I can see it actually being cheaper to buy new than to repair old.

[Dustin Fireblade]

That's the way it is in the books and that's how I play it. The materials are hard to come by and it's unlikely that you're going to find these vehicles and equipment for brand new.

The game is supposed to be gritty. I know you wouldn't think it by the number of MDC things in the books but if you look at the average income for characters vs the cost of repairs and equipment it paints a pretty clear picture. The world of Rifts is a very dangerous place. Life is hard.

If it was really gritty, there wouldn't be an economy in the first place, or cities that have dry cleaners (like in MercTown). Everything would be salvaged and patch worked together. Manufacturing and production would be done out of someone's garage vs large factories, etc.

Yes Rifts Earth is a dangerous place, but it hasn't been "gritty" for years.


Adjusting the prices down to more manageable levels, you can then more easily increase the cost if players happen to be in an area that either can't spare the resources without suitable compensation or whatever.

[SkyeFyre]

Sure it's still gritty. Just around the larger cities it's a bit better off, but for the vast majority of Rifts Earth life is tough.

[dante144]

I agree with this statement by SkyeFyre:

Sure it's still gritty. Just around the larger cities it's a bit better off, but for the vast majority of Rifts Earth life is tough.

Some super rich areas and beyond 3rd World poor areas, like parts of the Burbs.

I just finished an encounter and most of my guys lost, or just about lost their MDC armor defending a reasonably well off town. I ended the session with the town repairing their armor.

I think I may make it more difficult for them later. Although, they do have an operator in their group.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Sure it's still gritty. Just around the larger cities it's a bit better off, but for the vast majority of Rifts Earth life is tough.

When we have multiple nations and city-states, all with strong and stable governments, issuing currency and maintaining trade networks, vast manufacturing ability and millions of people doing a 9-5 job, producing all sorts of stuff like furniture and washing machines along with all kinds of war equipment, all just in North America alone, I'm sorry I just can't call the setting gritty or even post-apocalyptic anymore. There was a discussion years ago on the message boards here that described Rifts as a "post" post-apocalyptic setting, something I generally agree with.

[drakinn]

That's the way it is in the books and that's how I play it. The materials are hard to come by and it's unlikely that you're going to find these vehicles and equipment for brand new.

The game is supposed to be gritty. I know you wouldn't think it by the number of MDC things in the books but if you look at the average income for characters vs the cost of repairs and equipment it paints a pretty clear picture. The world of Rifts is a very dangerous place. Life is hard.

you are right I had hoped that Chaos Earth would fit that bill

[Dustin Fireblade]

There was a discussion years ago on the message boards here that described Rifts as a "post" post-apocalyptic setting, something I generally agree with.

Intriguing. Can you tell us more about this?

It took place before I joined the community here, and I believe the posts have since been long purged from the boards, but the gist of it was that since humankind has re-established itself in the form of working governments, issuing currency, conducting research, promoting trade and manufacturing, etc, that Rifts Earth was not (and should not) be considered a post-apocalyptic setting. It had moved past that.

I believe the argument was that a post-apocalypse setting should not have those things, at least not in the quantity that Rifts Earth, and especially North America has. And let's face it, North America has a lot of manufacturing for a supposed post-apocalypse setting.

Sure Ron the farmer that doesn't live anywhere near those places can have it pretty rough, however as people like to correctly point out, dangerous MD creatures and things are suppose to be rare. So Ron could spend his entire life down on the farm and never face danger greater than the cows not coming home on time. He might have to use 18th century technology, but that's a life of hard work, not gritty danger.

[Dustin Fireblade]

That's the way it is in the books and that's how I play it. The materials are hard to come by and it's unlikely that you're going to find these vehicles and equipment for brand new.

The game is supposed to be gritty. I know you wouldn't think it by the number of MDC things in the books but if you look at the average income for characters vs the cost of repairs and equipment it paints a pretty clear picture. The world of Rifts is a very dangerous place. Life is hard.

you are right I had hoped that Chaos Earth would fit that bill

I still have hope - unless Jason advances the time line with his books, it technically hasn't been a year yet since the apocalypse. I also believe he'll include more info about things such as bartering, jury-rigging and salvage. At least I'll keep my fingers crossed.

[drakinn]

If I run a chaos earth it would be far away from human zones

[Killer Cyborg]

Rifts Earth is a dangerous place, but it hasn't been "gritty" for years.

Rifts is what you make it.
For some, a war-torn, demon-infested land that's mostly wilderness seems ripe for grittiness.
For others, it can be sparkly and happy.
It's all about tone.

As for the "post-post apocalypse," you probably remember where I stand on that.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Rifts Earth is a dangerous place, but it hasn't been "gritty" for years.

Rifts is what you make it.
For some, a war-torn, demon-infested land that's mostly wilderness seems ripe for grittiness.
For others, it can be sparkly and happy.
It's all about tone.

I agree. IMHO though the books portray something closer to the "sparkly and happy" world rather than the "war-torn demon-infested wilderness" world.

I'd like to see more bartering, salvaging and jury-rigging, along with weapon & armor deterioration. An expansion of the barbarians from Dino Swamp (to other area's). More older technology (18th and 19th century), beasts of burden, etc.

(Yes, I can well imagine a group of players using a mule+wagon to haul in the remains of a enemy power armor in the hopes to use it's nuke power cell to recharge their spent e-clips. Their armor all shot up, weapons broke, bodies all banged up and little to no medical supplies, hardly any food or water left, and they have to prepare for the bad guys to come back in a few days...)

[Armorlord]

I run with the prices as is, though this is often off-set by trading in salvage and doing some work themselves.
I keep the high cost of MD living in mind as one of the big reasons for the vast disparity between city-states and hapless villages. Hell, it costs a thousand credits just to have an e-clip recharged for you.
Also the difference between 'adventurer' humans and regular ones, the adventurers have managed to scrape together that starting equipment list with MD gear.

As for the post-post thing:
The Cataclysm/Chaos Earth - Apocalypse
The Dark Age - Post Apocalypse
Rifts - Some areas are crawling out of devastation, others are just as bad as ever.
Some regions the tone is certainly post-apocalyptic, in and around major powers the feel in more post-post-apocalyptic- but the beast is still at the door. Things are still fragile enough, even in the Coalition States, that things could take a turn for the worst once again. The world is indeed still a very dangerous place.

[Noon]

How much do you want the repairs to cost?

I mean, it doesn't matter - you'll just end up giving them, via the proxy of an NPC, the amount of money needed whether you lower the cost or keep it as is.

[Armorlord]

I mean, it doesn't matter - you'll just end up giving them, via the proxy of an NPC, the amount of money needed whether you lower the cost or keep it as is.

That is a good point, the more serious mercenary types and employers will tend to acknowledge the expected 'expenses' of the work. Ranging from demanding <blah> plus recharge and repair, to the employer offering X amount to cover projected expenses, and if they go over that's their own problem.
Less mercenary characters need to scrimp and save a bit more though.

[SkyeFyre]

I run with the prices as is, though this is often off-set by trading in salvage and doing some work themselves.
I keep the high cost of MD living in mind as one of the big reasons for the vast disparity between city-states and hapless villages. Hell, it costs a thousand credits just to have an e-clip recharged for you.
Also the difference between 'adventurer' humans and regular ones, the adventurers have managed to scrape together that starting equipment list with MD gear.

As for the post-post thing:
The Cataclysm/Chaos Earth - Apocalypse
The Dark Age - Post Apocalypse
Rifts - Some areas are crawling out of devastation, others are just as bad as ever.
Some regions the tone is certainly post-apocalyptic, in and around major powers the feel in more post-post-apocalyptic- but the beast is still at the door. Things are still fragile enough, even in the Coalition States, that things could take a turn for the worst once again. The world is indeed still a very dangerous place.

Mirrors my views pretty well. That's how I see it.

[drakinn]

I think part of the point is being missed. how do you say you can buy the vehicle gas engine version for 64000 with 100 percent of the mdc and then charge 350000 to repair just half that mdc. 80 points of damage will total the vehicle and make it so you should just buy a new one

[Killer Cyborg]

I think part of the point is being missed. how do you say you can buy the vehicle gas engine version for 64000 with 100 percent of the mdc and then charge 350000 to repair just half that mdc. 80 points of damage will total the vehicle and make it so you should just buy a new one

I already addressed how it could cost more to repair something than to make it.

But now that I'm near my books, and can look at the repair tables, I feel that I should point out that I don't think your numbers are right.

Your original post:

a guy with a mountaineer ATV took 86 points of damage and I used the game shield for repair costs and it came to more than 300000 credits so I gave them a break down to 160000 and that is still three times the cost of a gas engine ATV.

First of all, the Mountaineer ATV has a price listed for armor: CR 10,000 per 30 MDC.
All that you need to do in order to repair 86 lost MDC, if all that's damaged is the vehicle's armor, is to pay CR 30,000 in order to have 90 MDC added to the vehicle.
That's not a price worth complaining about.

Second of all, you seem to have used the highest possible repair cost from the tables listed, the repair cost for robot vehicles.
Unless your ATV is very, very heavily modded, it isn't a Robot vehicle.
You picked a category of repair with an unnecessarily high cost, the highest cost in fact, then came to us to ask if the cost wasn't absurdly high.
Yes, the price you came to IS absurdly high, but that's not a problem with the rules.

[drakinn]

First of all, the Mountaineer ATV has a price listed for armor: CR 10,000 per 30 MDC.

where did you find this?

[drakinn]

First of all, the Mountaineer ATV has a price listed for armor: CR 10,000 per 30 MDC.

where did you find this?

found it main book the cost for adding armor to the atv

[Dustin Fireblade]

First of all, the Mountaineer ATV has a price listed for armor: CR 10,000 per 30 MDC.

where did you find this?

It's in the write-up for the Mountaineer ATV, listed in RUE.

[Display-Name-Alpha]

Rule of thumb: Repair should never cost more than buying new. Other than that for non magical armors (obviously restoring magical armors even physical magical armors will regenerate the lost materials because in my head thats how magic works)... but on like MD Ceramics and MD metals, Say a suit of 100MDC armor took 40 points of damage, it's only repairable by d% of dice, so if player rolls 50%, only 20MDC can be repaired, the other 20 are lost to structural integrity.

[drakinn]

Rule of thumb: Repair should never cost more than buying new. Other than that for non magical armors (obviously restoring magical armors even physical magical armors will regenerate the lost materials because in my head thats how magic works)... but on like MD Ceramics and MD metals, Say a suit of 100MDC armor took 40 points of damage, it's only repairable by d% of dice, so if player rolls 50%, only 20MDC can be repaired, the other 20 are lost to structural integrity.

do you allow the spell mend broken to repair the structural damage

[Killer Cyborg]

First of all, the Mountaineer ATV has a price listed for armor: CR 10,000 per 30 MDC.

where did you find this?

In the description of the vehicle.
It's not a repair cost, mind you: it's the cost for adding more armor onto the ATV.
Which nets out about the same, since there's no limit for adding armor to the vehicle. You could just add the new armor over the old armor, or you could strip the old armor off first, if you like.

[drakinn]

I took that adding armor section for the ATV and made that the stats for regular vehicles.

Body Armor seems to be throw away because most suits that take 6-12 MDC cost more to repair than to buy new. This makes sense to me because vests today are throw away if they take damage.

I also checked out the robots and power armor and it makes sense; the numbers work out.

[Proseksword]

I use the same fix as Dustin Fireblade - divide the cost of all armor repairs, ammo, & e-clip recharging by 10. Armor is so bleeping expensive that replacing it when damaged or destroyed isn't an available option to most adventurers, who live hand-to-mouth. Far better to let them take care of their gear than have to constantly replace it. If armor repairs and ammo truly cost as much as the rules indicate, I can't see how any independent mercenaries would be able to survive on RIFTs Earth, let alone spawn a whole city dedicated to providing them goods and services.

[Display-Name-Alpha]

Rule of thumb: Repair should never cost more than buying new. Other than that for non magical armors (obviously restoring magical armors even physical magical armors will regenerate the lost materials because in my head thats how magic works)... but on like MD Ceramics and MD metals, Say a suit of 100MDC armor took 40 points of damage, it's only repairable by d% of dice, so if player rolls 50%, only 20MDC can be repaired, the other 20 are lost to structural integrity.

do you allow the spell mend broken to repair the structural damage

Mend Broken is magic, not repairs, but yes.

[Killer Cyborg]

I use the same fix as Dustin Fireblade - divide the cost of all armor repairs, ammo, & e-clip recharging by 10. Armor is so bleeping expensive that replacing it when damaged or destroyed isn't an available option to most adventurers, who live hand-to-mouth. Far better to let them take care of their gear than have to constantly replace it. If armor repairs and ammo truly cost as much as the rules indicate, I can't see how any independent mercenaries would be able to survive on RIFTs Earth, let alone spawn a whole city dedicated to providing them goods and services.

Armor can last a long time, if you take care not to get shot and stabbed.
Ammo can last a lot longer if you use it as sparingly as possible.
Repair and recharge costs are easier to bear if you think before you rush into battle; sometimes the fight just isn't worth it.

[Display-Name-Alpha]

I use the same fix as Dustin Fireblade - divide the cost of all armor repairs, ammo, & e-clip recharging by 10. Armor is so bleeping expensive that replacing it when damaged or destroyed isn't an available option to most adventurers, who live hand-to-mouth. Far better to let them take care of their gear than have to constantly replace it. If armor repairs and ammo truly cost as much as the rules indicate, I can't see how any independent mercenaries would be able to survive on RIFTs Earth, let alone spawn a whole city dedicated to providing them goods and services.

Armor can last a long time, if you take care not to get shot and stabbed.
Ammo can last a lot longer if you use it as sparingly as possible.
Repair and recharge costs are easier to bear if you think before you rush into battle; sometimes the fight just isn't worth it.

I've also got custom cover rules since there are none.

There are varying disparages of cover, 10% to 90%, 100% is completely hidden. It is treated like an actual "miss" chance like, "Yeah, it would have landed had they not been in cover". Basically roll to strike, if its a hit, player rolls %. If they succeed in their "cover check" cover absorbs the blow, MD weapons blow right through SDC structures, so some cover is not as good as one might think.

If you are firing back at an opponent, with a two-handed weapon you can have a maximum of 50% cover (rifle) or 75% with a pistol.

[Proseksword]

Armor can last a long time, if you take care not to get shot and stabbed.
Ammo can last a lot longer if you use it as sparingly as possible.
Repair and recharge costs are easier to bear if you think before you rush into battle; sometimes the fight just isn't worth it.

Of course, this depends on how things are GMed, but overall, I'd say that the rules in RIFTs, where weapons hit on an 8+ unless you dodge, and where it takes multiple hits to drop just about any target, favor extended engagements where everyone involved can expect to take a couple of hits. I have a real hard time imagining a game of RIFTs where hundreds of MDC isn't blasted off of a player character, at least where combat with any measurable threat is concerned.

[Killer Cyborg]

Armor can last a long time, if you take care not to get shot and stabbed.
Ammo can last a lot longer if you use it as sparingly as possible.
Repair and recharge costs are easier to bear if you think before you rush into battle; sometimes the fight just isn't worth it.

Of course, this depends on how things are GMed, but overall, I'd say that the rules in RIFTs, where weapons hit on an 8+ unless you dodge, and where it takes multiple hits to drop just about any target, favor extended engagements where everyone involved can expect to take a couple of hits. I have a real hard time imagining a game of RIFTs where hundreds of MDC isn't blasted off of a player character, at least where combat with any measurable threat is concerned.

You're measuring wrong, then.
Look at what you're saying:
1. It's too expensive to repair armor, which means that people die due to lack of armor repair.
2. If a character doesn't lose hundreds of MDC in combat, then there is no measurable threat.

The first claim negates the second.

If you lose 25% of your MDC in a battle, that's a very big threat, because 3 more fights like that will KILL you if you don't have the time and money to get your armor repaired by then.
If you're out in the middle of the wilderness, losing 10%, or even 5% of your total MDC can be a deadly threat, because you're probably weeks away from anybody who can repair your armor. Sure, that one battle might have been easy, but if you keep fighting that way you're going to be dead.
If you fight a demon or monster that doesn't have any loot, losing any MDC at all will mean that you net out behind financially; the battle's profit isn't enough to keep your armor repaired and your weapon charged, so you're going to die if you keep doing things that way.

Any battle where you can't afford to repair or recharge your ammo afterward is a very measurable threat.

So players have to do what soldiers have to do in real life: use tactics, use overwhelming force, use cover, set up ambushes, retreat, and even surrender if you have to.

No soldier in the real world ever goes into battle with the intention of getting shot, not unless he/she also intends to die.
Why should it be any different in a the game?

Sure, PCs have more leeway because getting shot once or twice probably won't kill them, but that's a good thing (unless you like having lots of PC deaths); you get to make the occasional mistake and live through it.

Ultimately, of course, it comes down to playing style and what your group enjoys.
If you and yours prefer playing where you just run into battle and try to heal/repair faster than the enemy can damage you, ala Final Fantasy or something, that's cool; go right ahead.

But don't complain about the rules or setting just because it's geared toward something more realistic than your specific style of play; some of us enjoy having to think before we shoot.

[Proseksword]

Thanks for sidestepping my point with a strawman, but you really don't have anything to say about the fact that any extended fight in RIFTS will result in you taking damage. Sure, you and your friends can skulk around for months on the outskirts of Ispheming ganking individual Vagabonds & Headhunters at odds of 6 to 1 to sell their stuff and avoid the risk of damage, but that isn't a very heroic or interesting game, and it still does nothing for you if you are the one to be attacked, a very real likelihood adventuring from point A to point B on RIFTs Earth. Avoiding damage while adventuring in RIFTs is basically an exercise in futility. Sure, everyone will do their best to minimize the amount of damage taken, but when every fight is likely to be at least a couple of melee rounds long, and hitting a target is exceedingly easy, your almost always going to wind up taking some expensive damage unless you do nothing but gank individual weak mooks for loot. Highwayman the RPG isn't anything I'm interested in.

[Display-Name-Alpha]

Thanks for sidestepping my point with a strawman, but you really don't have anything to say about the fact that any extended fight in RIFTS will result in you taking damage. Sure, you and your friends can skulk around for months on the outskirts of Ispheming ganking individual Vagabonds & Headhunters at odds of 6 to 1 to sell their stuff and avoid the risk of damage, but that isn't a very heroic or interesting game, and it still does nothing for you if you are the one to be attacked, a very real likelihood adventuring from point A to point B on RIFTs Earth. Avoiding damage while adventuring in RIFTs is basically an exercise in futility. Sure, everyone will do their best to minimize the amount of damage taken, but when every fight is likely to be at least a couple of melee rounds long, and hitting a target is exceedingly easy, your almost always going to wind up taking some expensive damage unless you do nothing but gank individual weak mooks for loot. Highwayman the RPG isn't anything I'm interested in.

Its not just RIFTS... it's the whole system. Its designed to be damage intake heavy, you are -10 to dodge incoming modern weapons... 9.99~/10 you are going to get shot even with the base bonuses a +1 to strike will take you FAR in the realm of only needing to roll a 4 or better, and your enemy is -10 off the bat. So on a worst outcome scenario, you need to roll a 9+1 to strike for a 10, to beat your opponents roll of a 19 with no bonuses -10 = 9.

Its mechanics, and its unfair in terms of defense, especially involving mega-damage weapons where there is no AR to bypass, you get hit, you take damage regardless.

[Killer Cyborg]

Thanks for sidestepping my point with a strawman, but you really don't have anything to say about the fact that any extended fight in RIFTS will result in you taking damage.

Uh, yeah... remember that whole bit I said about thinking and using strategy?
Part of basic strategy is to avoid extended fights whenever possible.

Sure, you and your friends can skulk around for months on the outskirts of Ispheming ganking individual Vagabonds & Headhunters at odds of 6 to 1 to sell their stuff and avoid the risk of damage, but that isn't a very heroic or interesting game, and it still does nothing for you if you are the one to be attacked, a very real likelihood adventuring from point A to point B on RIFTs Earth.

a) Depending on what the party has to bring to the table, you don't need 6 to 1 odds.
b) Yes, it's possible to get attacked. It's also possible to do your best to avoid getting ambushed, to minimize the possibility. Again, this is how real combat works; why shouldn't the game replicate it?
c) I'd say that it's pretty unheroic to change the rules to slant the odds in the PCs' favor, just so they don't have to think.

Avoiding damage while adventuring in RIFTs is basically an exercise in futility.

That depends.
If you have a GM who throws encounters at you by saying, "Okay, you walk for a while, then some bandits attack. They're about 100' away. Roll for initiative.", then yeah, it's pretty impossible.
If you have a GM who lets you have a good point-man, set up a good marching order, make good use of cover and concealment, and who gives you opportunities to use all the resources at your disposal, and you have a well-balanced party, then it's not as hard as you seem to think.
Detect Ambush lets you try to predict where an ambush might come from. Detect Concealment lets you try to spot camouflaged opponents. Thermal sensors let you find heat signatures. Amplified hearing lets you hear people moving through the underbrush. Enhanced vision (borgs, crazies, or whatever) lets you read a stop sign at 2 miles, so that's going to provide some good bonuses for spotting enemies and/or picking up clues that there might be an ambush ahead. Invisibility allows you to range ahead of the rest of the party and watch for trouble. Dog Pack and Psi-Stalkers can detect supernatural menaces lurking in the dark. See Invisible lets you detect invisible creatures.
And so on.
Sure, you're going to get hit sometimes; that's what the armor is there for, to save your life when you screw up.

Sure, everyone will do their best to minimize the amount of damage taken, but when every fight is likely to be at least a couple of melee rounds long, and hitting a target is exceedingly easy, your almost always going to wind up taking some expensive damage unless you do nothing but gank individual weak mooks for loot. Highwayman the RPG isn't anything I'm interested in.

It might shock you to know this, but if you have the right strategy, you can swiftly take out superior numbers and/or better armed opponents.
It doesn't all have to be a gang of people jumping one guy, or two gangs of people standing in the open shooting each other until one side is dead.
If your side has cover and the other side doesn't, their effectiveness is cut at least in half because they have to take a minimum of two attacks if they want to shoot you.
If your side is ambushing a convoy or group of enemies, you can set traps that give you the edge.
What starts off as 3:1 odds against you can change really fast in your favor if you have some prep time and forethought.

The point of tactics and strategy isn't so you can take on smaller numbers with less firepower, it's so you can do the opposite.

It's why John McClane was able to take out a large group of terrorists.
It's why Paul Kersey was able to ambush and kill so many criminals that crime in Chicago took a significant drop.
It's why Dutch was able to finally kill the invisible monster that killed his comrades, and it's why the monster was able to kill a team of well-armed, well-trained commandos.
It's why Ghost Dog was able to take a good bite out of the local mafia.
You might not like it, but a heck of a lot of action movies revolve around a small group of heroes using tactics and strategy to out a much larger and/or better equipped force.
And believe it or not, they're not all highwaymen.

[Killer Cyborg]

Its not just RIFTS... it's the whole system. Its designed to be damage intake heavy, you are -10 to dodge incoming modern weapons... 9.99~/10 you are going to get shot even with the base bonuses a +1 to strike will take you FAR in the realm of only needing to roll a 4 or better, and your enemy is -10 off the bat. So on a worst outcome scenario, you need to roll a 9+1 to strike for a 10, to beat your opponents roll of a 19 with no bonuses -10 = 9.

Its mechanics, and its unfair in terms of defense, especially involving mega-damage weapons where there is no AR to bypass, you get hit, you take damage regardless.

You might remember that in the beginning there was no such penalty for dodging gunfire, but so many people complained that it was unrealistic to dodge gunfire, so Palladium changed the rules.
Then people complained about the burst/spray rules being too effective, so they ditched those.
Then people complained that their characters were dying too often when they were shot, so we got the GI-Joe rule.

Basically, IMO, most of the problems in Rifts stem from people wanting the game to change to match them instead of actually adapting to how the game works.

Anyway, the -10 to dodge rule currently only applies if you're within 10 feet of the person you're shooting at.
If you're 11'-50' away, the dodge penalty is only -5, and after 50', it disappears.

[Display-Name-Alpha]

Its not just RIFTS... it's the whole system. Its designed to be damage intake heavy, you are -10 to dodge incoming modern weapons... 9.99~/10 you are going to get shot even with the base bonuses a +1 to strike will take you FAR in the realm of only needing to roll a 4 or better, and your enemy is -10 off the bat. So on a worst outcome scenario, you need to roll a 9+1 to strike for a 10, to beat your opponents roll of a 19 with no bonuses -10 = 9.

Its mechanics, and its unfair in terms of defense, especially involving mega-damage weapons where there is no AR to bypass, you get hit, you take damage regardless.

You might remember that in the beginning there was no such penalty for dodging gunfire, but so many people complained that it was unrealistic to dodge gunfire, so Palladium changed the rules.
Then people complained about the burst/spray rules being too effective, so they ditched those.
Then people complained that their characters were dying too often when they were shot, so we got the GI-Joe rule.

Basically, IMO, most of the problems in Rifts stem from people wanting the game to change to match them instead of actually adapting to how the game works.

Anyway, the -10 to dodge rule currently only applies if you're within 10 feet of the person you're shooting at.
If you're 11'-50' away, the dodge penalty is only -5, and after 50', it disappears.

Yeah, kinda tossed most of palladium's combat "rules" other than attacks per melee and the fact it uses a d20.

[Proseksword]

Thanks for sidestepping my point with a strawman, but you really don't have anything to say about the fact that any extended fight in RIFTS will result in you taking damage.

Uh, yeah... remember that whole bit I said about thinking and using strategy?
Part of basic strategy is to avoid extended fights whenever possible.

And once again, here's the point - the heaviest damaging personal weapons in RIFTs deal 1D6x10 MD damage, with more being in the 6D6-1D4x10 MD range. The average suit of Heavy EBA Body Armor has 80-100 MDC. Assuming average die rolls, it'll take approximately three-to-four successful hits from the largest guns in the game to kill a single man dead. Chances are, unless you outnumber him significantly, he or his allies will be able to return fire, and with only an 8+ required to do so, 13+ or so if you are in cover and require a called shot, chances are, you'll take damage, because he'll survive your initial attack to return fire.

If you'll take damage in every encounter, repairing it to the tune listed is pretty darn impossible unless your GM is very liberal about handing out cash.

b) Yes, it's possible to get attacked. It's also possible to do your best to avoid getting ambushed, to minimize the possibility. Again, this is how real combat works; why shouldn't the game replicate it?

Anyone with half a brain will seek an advantageous means of attacking, and avoid dangerous situations to the best of their ability. Irregardless, your opponents, if they are a challenge at all, will get one over on you. I'd rather not cripple my party just because they took a couple of laser rifle shots.

c) I'd say that it's pretty unheroic to change the rules to slant the odds in the PCs' favor, just so they don't have to think.

Considering it means easier repairs for my NPCs as well, I don't see how I'm slanting anything in favor of PCs.

If your side has cover and the other side doesn't, their effectiveness is cut at least in half because they have to take a minimum of two attacks if they want to shoot you.

Sure, but that ignores the basic reality that somewhere in such a fire fight someone in the party is going to take damage, unless the party just extremely outclasses the targets(victims).

You might not like it, but a heck of a lot of action movies revolve around a small group of heroes using tactics and strategy to out a much larger and/or better equipped force.
And believe it or not, they're not all highwaymen.

Sure, but the difference is the mechanics of reality don't make hitting with a weapon as easy as it is in RIFTs. The reality of the RIFTs die mechanic means you're going to get hit at least half the time, unless you have mad auto-dodge or some other gimmick.

[Bood Samel]

Rifts Earth is a dangerous place, but it hasn't been "gritty" for years.

Rifts is what you make it.
For some, a war-torn, demon-infested land that's mostly wilderness seems ripe for grittiness.
For others, it can be sparkly and happy.
It's all about tone.

I agree. IMHO though the books portray something closer to the "sparkly and happy" world rather than the "war-torn demon-infested wilderness" world.

I'd like to see more bartering, salvaging and jury-rigging, along with weapon & armor deterioration. An expansion of the barbarians from Dino Swamp (to other area's). More older technology (18th and 19th century), beasts of burden, etc.

(Yes, I can well imagine a group of players using a mule+wagon to haul in the remains of a enemy power armor in the hopes to use it's nuke power cell to recharge their spent e-clips. Their armor all shot up, weapons broke, bodies all banged up and little to no medical supplies, hardly any food or water left, and they have to prepare for the bad guys to come back in a few days...)

I myself aim more for that as a rifts gm. I think for rifts to work with all of its flaws and what not, the gm in question has to have a very specific interpretation of the setting that they stick to. If not if falls apart easily. With all of its elements rifts is kinda like a Rorschach and as such everyone is going to see something different.

[Killer Cyborg]

With all of its elements rifts is kinda like a Rorschach and as such everyone is going to see something different.

I have made much the same comparison myself.
It's one of Palladium's greatest strengths, and one of their greatest weaknesses.

[Shark_Force]

so perhaps you need to come up with a solution that doesn't always amount to "shoot it with lasers until it is dead".

for example, let's suppose you find out there's an ambush ahead of you. you could:

a) walk into the ambush, guns blazing.
b) sneak up behind the ambushers, guns blazing
c) walk around the ambush, and be guaranteed to not take damage from the ensuing firefight.
d) intimidate or negotiate with the people ambushing you. persuade them that while they might hit your armor a few times, you have enough firepower that one way or another you're going to win, and they are all going to die if you get in a fight. if successful, no shots are fired and no damage to your armor is taken.

simply put, your NPCs should not be willing to fight to the death. if they think they are going to die, most of them should respond by surrendering or running away, *not* by deciding to empty their clip on the person who is going to kill them. there will be exceptions, of course, but most of the time the reason the PCs are getting shot is because they have an attitude of no quarter offered or requested, and because sometimes the GM has the same attitude for the other side, when in reality neither side should be thinking like that most likely.

[Proseksword]

Depends on the type of enemy. I don't really see Demons, Death Cultists and Supernatural predators as the types you can talk things through with, yet these are the very sorts of beings that oppose a wide number of RIFTs parties.

[Killer Cyborg]

Depends on the type of enemy. I don't really see Demons, Death Cultists and Supernatural predators as the types you can talk things through with, yet these are the very sorts of beings that oppose a wide number of RIFTs parties.

You can talk to anything that has intelligence and a language. Legends and lore are full of people talking to demons, and Shifters and Summoners do it all the time, for a living.
Death Cultists can be negotiated with as well; they're people. Depending on their agenda and your own, you could come to some sort of truce or agreement, or you could pretend to and betray them later (depending on alignment).
I played in a Rifts adventure, in fact, where I infiltrated a death cult in order to assassinate the leader. And in a recent D&D campaign my character disguised himself as a member of a death cult in order to sneak aboard their ship, and make my way to their island sanctuary. The others in the party chartered their own ship, then fought their way through the wilderness to reach the enemy base. We all got there, but I got there with full hit points and without using up any spells or one-time-use items like potions.

Supernatural predators are harder to talk to, because they're not generally very intelligent.
But you (and your GM) should keep in mind that they are predators; predators are looking for food, not a fight.
Just because they're supernatural doesn't mean that they're any more likely to fight to the death than any other predator would; damage them, and they're likely to run off.
Real life example: When a pack of feral dogs tried to get after the donkey, my dad shot one of them in the head with a .38.
If the dogs had all made a berserker charge at him, he might have been wounded or even killed (whether or not he killed some more of them).
But they didn't do that; they ran the hell out of there.
Because predators are looking for an easy kill, not something that fights back.

Up until that stingray rolled a nat 20, The Crocadile Hunter made a living facing off against deadly predators, usually completely unarmed. He couldn't talk to them, but that didn't mean he wasn't able to negotiate or communicate.

[drakinn]

in the end you can encourage all you like but the characters have to be willing to think outside the box and negotiate or plan ahead I just think that those types of players are few and far between. and as I said I reworked the numbers and for the most part they work out. If you look at supply and demand there just might not be any demand for body armor repair and it also may have a higher cost due to the complexities of movement and other factors.

[Saitou Hajime]

Depends on the type of enemy. I don't really see Demons, Death Cultists and Supernatural predators as the types you can talk things through with, yet these are the very sorts of beings that oppose a wide number of RIFTs parties.

Yes but they are largely groups of people that will run to hassle the players another day.