Initiative bonuses?

[barna10]

Why does a Mystic Knight (atleast from Madhaven) get initiative bonuses as they level and Gunslingers (and the variations) do not?

[rat_bastard]

Why does a Mystic Knight (atleast from Madhaven) get initiative bonuses as they level and Gunslingers (and the variations) do not?

because the Mystic Knight selected a OCC with a level based initiative bonus and the Gunslinger selected an OCC that was more bottom heavy.

[barna10]

Why does a Mystic Knight (atleast from Madhaven) get initiative bonuses as they level and Gunslingers (and the variations) do not?

If you examine the OCC's you'll notice that gunslingers bonus can be far greater than a MK. The gunslinger's bonus is based on natural prowess (P.P.) where as, in my understanding, the MK's bonus is based on training. i.e. the higher the level, the better trained, the more bonuses to initiative

I agree with your take on the rules as written, but does that make sense? Think of real gunslingers from the old west. Did you ever hear or read a description that went something like "The grizzled old gunslinger walked into the bar with the grace of a ballet dancer. His movements were like that of a leaf blowing in a gentle breeze." This is what I think of someone with a 20+ P.P. Are you telling me that Billie the kid became one of the quickest draws in the old west because he had a high P.P.? I think he did because he sat for hours upon hours drawing his gun out of his holster. He figured out the best and quickest way to make someone dead. It wasn't because he was "born to be a gunslinger."

I think the Gunslinger variants and the sharpshooting skill should be re-written to take P.P. out of the mix. There are plenty of examples in Palladium where initiative and shooting bonuses come from skill and experience instead of high stats.

Besides, what "normal" PC commonly has stats high-enough to even benefit from the Gunslinger and sharpshooting bonuses? A gunslinger should not be outdrawn by anyone. With the book stats, an "average" gunslinger will be out-drawn by any other OCC that gets an initiative bonus (like a mystic Knight).

The initiative bonus should be based in skill so that being a gunslinger is the reason you are quick. It shouldn't be because your an olympic gymnast that decided to pick up a gun.

[The Galactus Kid]

Why does a Mystic Knight (atleast from Madhaven) get initiative bonuses as they level and Gunslingers (and the variations) do not?

If you examine the OCC's you'll notice that gunslingers bonus can be far greater than a MK. The gunslinger's bonus is based on natural prowess (P.P.) where as, in my understanding, the MK's bonus is based on training. i.e. the higher the level, the better trained, the more bonuses to initiative

I agree with your take on the rules as written, but does that make sense? Think of real gunslingers from the old west. Did you ever hear or read a description that went something like "The grizzled old gunslinger walked into the bar with the grace of a ballet dancer. His movements were like that of a leaf blowing in a gentle breeze." This is what I think of someone with a 20+ P.P. Are you telling me that Billie the kid became one of the quickest draws in the old west because he had a high P.P.? I think he did because he sat for hours upon hours drawing his gun out of his holster. He figured out the best and quickest way to make someone dead. It wasn't because he was "born to be a gunslinger."

I think the Gunslinger variants and the sharpshooting skill should be re-written to take P.P. out of the mix. There are plenty of examples in Palladium where initiative and shooting bonuses come from skill and experience instead of high stats.

Besides, what "normal" PC commonly has stats high-enough to even benefit from the Gunslinger and sharpshooting bonuses? A gunslinger should not be outdrawn by anyone. With the book stats, an "average" gunslinger will be out-drawn by any other OCC that gets an initiative bonus (like a mystic Knight).

The initiative bonus should be based in skill so that being a gunslinger is the reason you are quick. It shouldn't be because your an olympic gymnast that decided to pick up a gun.

1) If you don't like it, change it.
2) If you are a gunsligner, you have quickdraw pistols. Any other O.C.C. that doesn't have quickdraw has to spend an action to draw their weapon. In a dual between a gunslinger and a mystic knight, even if the MK wins initiative it would go like this.

MK: I draw my pistol
GS: I draw my pistol and shoot the MK in the eyeball. (rolls. Makes his called shot even with the -3...and this is disregarding the whole called shots take 2 actions because that is a stupid rule that shouldn't apply to gunslingers anyway since they were written before the rule...I digress)
MK: My brain explodes. I'll roll up a new character and see you next week.
GS: I loot the body.

If the GS gets initiative it would go like this:

GS: I draw both my pistols and shoot the MK in both eyeballs just to show how much more badass I am in this exampe than in the last one. (rolls. Makes his called shot)
MK: I try to...
GS: (interupts) Dead men can't talk. Badass gunslinger is badass...I loot the body.

[barna10]

Why does a Mystic Knight (atleast from Madhaven) get initiative bonuses as they level and Gunslingers (and the variations) do not?

If you examine the OCC's you'll notice that gunslingers bonus can be far greater than a MK. The gunslinger's bonus is based on natural prowess (P.P.) where as, in my understanding, the MK's bonus is based on training. i.e. the higher the level, the better trained, the more bonuses to initiative

I agree with your take on the rules as written, but does that make sense? Think of real gunslingers from the old west. Did you ever hear or read a description that went something like "The grizzled old gunslinger walked into the bar with the grace of a ballet dancer. His movements were like that of a leaf blowing in a gentle breeze." This is what I think of someone with a 20+ P.P. Are you telling me that Billie the kid became one of the quickest draws in the old west because he had a high P.P.? I think he did because he sat for hours upon hours drawing his gun out of his holster. He figured out the best and quickest way to make someone dead. It wasn't because he was "born to be a gunslinger."

I think the Gunslinger variants and the sharpshooting skill should be re-written to take P.P. out of the mix. There are plenty of examples in Palladium where initiative and shooting bonuses come from skill and experience instead of high stats.

Besides, what "normal" PC commonly has stats high-enough to even benefit from the Gunslinger and sharpshooting bonuses? A gunslinger should not be outdrawn by anyone. With the book stats, an "average" gunslinger will be out-drawn by any other OCC that gets an initiative bonus (like a mystic Knight).

The initiative bonus should be based in skill so that being a gunslinger is the reason you are quick. It shouldn't be because your an olympic gymnast that decided to pick up a gun.

1) If you don't like it, change it.
2) If you are a gunsligner, you have quickdraw pistols. Any other O.C.C. that doesn't have quickdraw has to spend an action to draw their weapon. In a dual between a gunslinger and a mystic knight, even if the MK wins initiative it would go like this.

MK: I draw my pistol
GS: I draw my pistol and shoot the MK in the eyeball. (rolls. Makes his called shot even with the -3...and this is disregarding the whole called shots take 2 actions because that is a stupid rule that shouldn't apply to gunslingers anyway since they were written before the rule...I digress)
MK: My brain explodes. I'll roll up a new character and see you next week.
GS: I loot the body.

If the GS gets initiative it would go like this:

GS: I draw both my pistols and shoot the MK in both eyeballs just to show how much more badass I am in this exampe than in the last one. (rolls. Makes his called shot)
MK: I try to...
GS: (interupts) Dead men can't talk. Badass gunslinger is badass...I loot the body.

Forgive me for being a bit rusty (and slow), bu where are you seeing that a Gunslinger gets to draw and fire in a single action?

[The Galactus Kid]

Yes. Quickdraw means that you don't take an action to draw your weapon.

[Balabanto]

Why, yes, it does.

[The Galactus Kid]

Why, yes, it does.

Wait...are you agreeing with me by saying that it means what I said it meants? Or are you disagreeing with me by saying that it does require an action to draw a weapon?

[Balabanto]

Of course I agree with you. I'm just feeling smug because this proves Battle Magus beats Mystic Knight. (When is that thread going to end?)

[The Galactus Kid]

Of course I agree with you. I'm just feeling smug because this proves Battle Magus beats Mystic Knight. (When is that thread going to end?)

Ah ok. Just clarifying.

[barna10]

Of course I agree with you. I'm just feeling smug because this proves Battle Magus beats Mystic Knight. (When is that thread going to end?)

Ah ok. Just clarifying.

Great that you two guys agree, but where does it state this in the text?

[barna10]

Of course I agree with you. I'm just feeling smug because this proves Battle Magus beats Mystic Knight. (When is that thread going to end?)

Ah ok. Just clarifying.

Great that you two guys agree, but where does it state this in the text?

If you are referring to the text under "Paired Weapons" then it comes down to interpretation. The text under "paired weapons" states (retyped from the text) "The Gunfighter and Gunslinger can draw and shoot two handguns (or throw two knives) simultaneously at the same target, inflicting full damage from both weapons, but counts as one melee attack!". If this is the text then this is nothing special for the Gunslinger. ANYONE with paired weapons can do the same thing. This was covered years ago by Kevin. Doesn't it seem strange to you guys that under your interpretation, the Gunslinger can ONLY draw TWO weapons and fire at once and CANNOT do the same with ONE gun? Also, ANYONE can attempt this maneuver (with one gun or two) as a wild shot.

[barna10]

Actually, here's a challenge for you. Find where it says that drawing a weapon, in the Palladium system, actually takes an action.

[The Galactus Kid]

Check W.P. Quickdraw in Splicers or R:UE.

[barna10]

Check W.P. Quickdraw in Splicers or R:UE.

This only covers Initiative bonuses. It does not state either way about drawing taking an action!

[The Galactus Kid]

I am away from my books. I will post when I get home. In the mean time, if anyone has page numbers it would be appreciated.

[barna10]

I am away from my books. I will post when I get home. In the mean time, if anyone has page numbers it would be appreciated.

R:UE page 327 W.P. Quickdraw

"A practiced move in which the character gets an initiative bonus to draw and fire or throw his weapon much faster at first sign of danger. Note that characters with a high P.P. benefit most from this skill. Bonus:..... P.P. of 31 or above. [end of skill description]"

No mention of actions or drawing itself. It just says that you do "it" faster.

[The Galactus Kid]

I am away from my books. I will post when I get home. In the mean time, if anyone has page numbers it would be appreciated.

R:UE page 327 W.P. Quickdraw

"A practiced move in which the character gets an initiative bonus to draw and fire or throw his weapon much faster at first sign of danger. Note that characters with a high P.P. benefit most from this skill. Bonus:..... P.P. of 31 or above. [end of skill description]"

No mention of actions or drawing itself. It just says that you do "it" faster.

I was trying to help you out with someone with page numbers referring to my point. I will try to dig it up and post the page numbers when I get home unless someone else points them out before I do.

[rat_bastard]

I cannot find anything that supports the rule that drawing a weapon is a action in itself other than personal assumptions. There are a few classes that make the claim that drawing weapons is instant as an ability, (Cyber knights psi-sword, gunslingers pistols or rifles) but nothing that suggests that there is an actual cost to draw weapons.

[Razzinold]

IMO if there are certain classes that state drawing is instant, then logically, that must mean that the classes not mentioned are not instant. My GM made drawing your weapon an action, his reason being, unless you specifically train at drawing a weapon quickly then it would take one action to draw, one action to fire. This way there was an ACTUAL point to picking the occ like gunfighter, or else why not pick something that was tougher or had more skills, or whatever, if anyone with a gun could draw just as quick as a PROFESSIONAL gunfighter. You are telling me that a rogue scholar can draw as fast as a gunslinger ? No it would take him time to draw and steady himself enough to be able to get a shot off.
That's the way we played it, but the beauty about Rifts is you can change whatever you don't like.
Happy Gaming!

edit:
on a small side note, personally I wonder why people even bother picking occ's anymore. It was bad enough when apparently EVERY SINGLE PERSON on Rifts Earth knows boxing, but now EVERYONE is a expert marksman, and every third person seems to have the abilities of a L.L.W. even if their O.C.C. is a city rat. It's like everything has become one big melting pot, people don't seem to be happy with just playing their o.c.c. as stated. Good example is another thread on here, a demi-god gypsy seer and they want to be an apok on top of that? But once again that's just my opinion.

[rat_bastard]

IMO if there are certain classes that state drawing is instant, then logically, that must mean that the classes not mentioned are not instant. My GM made drawing your weapon an action, his reason being, unless you specifically train at drawing a weapon quickly then it would take one action to draw, one action to fire. This way there was an ACTUAL point to picking the occ like gunfighter, or else why not pick something that was tougher or had more skills, or whatever, if anyone with a gun could draw just as quick as a PROFESSIONAL gunfighter. You are telling me that a rogue scholar can draw as fast as a gunslinger ? No it would take him time to draw and steady himself enough to be able to get a shot off.
That's the way we played it, but the beauty about Rifts is you can change whatever you don't like.
Happy Gaming!

while the RAW seems to not feature that bit of common sense, palladium rules are make them up as you go along and having drawing take an action for most classes just makes sense to me.

[Wildfire]

Why does a Mystic Knight (atleast from Madhaven) get initiative bonuses as they level and Gunslingers (and the variations) do not?

because the Mystic Knight selected a OCC with a level based initiative bonus and the Gunslinger selected an OCC that was more bottom heavy.

hey man your going to upset all the women slingers by saying they all have heavy bottoms

[rat_bastard]

Why does a Mystic Knight (atleast from Madhaven) get initiative bonuses as they level and Gunslingers (and the variations) do not?

because the Mystic Knight selected a OCC with a level based initiative bonus and the Gunslinger selected an OCC that was more bottom heavy.

hey man your going to upset all the women slingers by saying they all have heavy bottoms

honestly I kinda expect the women who have accomplished the difficult prerequisites of becoming a gunslinger to be more confident and self assured. The cutthroat world of gun-slinging lends itself to a certain level of personal confidence that encourages finding other things to worry about beside the relative size of one's posterior. besides...

[Hannibal]

Because Palladium has not done a good job over the years maintaining consistency in classes. It's a degree of editing and detail that, as much as I love this system, Palladium has never had. You compare earlier OCCs to more recent OCCs, you can see it pretty clearly. But, it's too late for our intrepid book-writers to fix it, so I'd either make the house-rule adjustments or, well, find peace with the chaos/

[barna10]

Wether drawing a weapon is an action or not is diverging from the stated topic. Besides, if we follow the train of thought that drawing weapon is an action, and it is inferred that a gunslinger has a special ability makes drawing a weapon take no actions, then one must logically conclude that anyone that takes the W.P. Quickdraw skill also has the ability as well. In other words, one skill negates an entire family of O.C.C.s' uniqueness.

Back on topic, why shouldn't a Gunslinger get quicker with experience? Using my Billy the Kid analogy, a Gunslinger would spend years perfecting his art. But not according to the "officail version", unless he was out doing backflips or working a pummel horse, his P.P. would not improve, therefore his inititiave bonus would be the same as it is at first level for the rest of his career. This is totally illogical and doesn't even make sense within the "reality" of the game. Again, there are plenty of examples of other classes that benefit from an initiative bonus that increases with experience. Is anyone here trying to say that this same increase in initiative bonus should not be awarded to an O.C.C. who's primary goal is to be quicker than the next guy?

[The Galactus Kid]

I am away from my books. I will post when I get home. In the mean time, if anyone has page numbers it would be appreciated.

R:UE page 327 W.P. Quickdraw

"A practiced move in which the character gets an initiative bonus to draw and fire or throw his weapon much faster at first sign of danger. Note that characters with a high P.P. benefit most from this skill. Bonus:..... P.P. of 31 or above. [end of skill description]"

No mention of actions or drawing itself. It just says that you do "it" faster.

Rifts Game Masters Guide Pg. 32. Left hand column, second to last question.

"Drawing a sword is one action and striking is a second action."

I would allow the quick draw ability to eliminate that, but I would also allow the gunslinger to also take quick draw and have thos bonuses stack with his from the O.C.C. still making him better.

ALSO: Quickdraw in Rifts Ultimate Edition is an ANCIENT W.P. so one could say that it could only be used with ancient weapons (draw and fire in the description would imply bows). No such skill exists for modern W.P.s except W.P. sharpshooting in the Rifts Game Master Guide which has a host of limitations and penalties as to who can take it. I'm pretty sure the reputation of the gunslinger being badass is still strongly intact.

[barna10]

I am away from my books. I will post when I get home. In the mean time, if anyone has page numbers it would be appreciated.

R:UE page 327 W.P. Quickdraw

"A practiced move in which the character gets an initiative bonus to draw and fire or throw his weapon much faster at first sign of danger. Note that characters with a high P.P. benefit most from this skill. Bonus:..... P.P. of 31 or above. [end of skill description]"

No mention of actions or drawing itself. It just says that you do "it" faster.

Rifts Game Masters Guide Pg. 32. Left hand column, second to last question.

"Drawing a sword is one action and striking is a second action."

I would allow the quick draw ability to eliminate that, but I would also allow the gunslinger to also take quick draw and have thos bonuses stack with his from the O.C.C. still making him better.

ALSO: Quickdraw in Rifts Ultimate Edition is an ANCIENT W.P. so one could say that it could only be used with ancient weapons (draw and fire in the description would imply bows). No such skill exists for modern W.P.s except W.P. sharpshooting in the Rifts Game Master Guide which has a host of limitations and penalties as to who can take it. I'm pretty sure the reputation of the gunslinger being badass is still strongly intact.

Still, these bonuses are P.P. based and do not get better with experience.

(Thank you for clearing up the drawing costing an action debate.)

[The Galactus Kid]

I am away from my books. I will post when I get home. In the mean time, if anyone has page numbers it would be appreciated.

R:UE page 327 W.P. Quickdraw

"A practiced move in which the character gets an initiative bonus to draw and fire or throw his weapon much faster at first sign of danger. Note that characters with a high P.P. benefit most from this skill. Bonus:..... P.P. of 31 or above. [end of skill description]"

No mention of actions or drawing itself. It just says that you do "it" faster.

Rifts Game Masters Guide Pg. 32. Left hand column, second to last question.

"Drawing a sword is one action and striking is a second action."

I would allow the quick draw ability to eliminate that, but I would also allow the gunslinger to also take quick draw and have thos bonuses stack with his from the O.C.C. still making him better.

ALSO: Quickdraw in Rifts Ultimate Edition is an ANCIENT W.P. so one could say that it could only be used with ancient weapons (draw and fire in the description would imply bows). No such skill exists for modern W.P.s except W.P. sharpshooting in the Rifts Game Master Guide which has a host of limitations and penalties as to who can take it. I'm pretty sure the reputation of the gunslinger being badass is still strongly intact.

Still, these bonuses are P.P. based and do not get better with experience.

(Thank you for clearing up the drawing costing an action debate.)

If that is something you want to do in game, I don't see any reason why you couldn't do it. There are no real rules for it, other than the aforementioned badass gunslinger being badass.

[barna10]

I would not allow a Gunslinger to take the W.P. Quickdraw. I would say his O.C.C. abilities trumped the skill as a superior version. I would compare this to someone with the "Boxing" martial art (from Rifter 7 I believe) taking the "Boxing" skill. If you allow it, more power to you.

[The Galactus Kid]

I would not allow a Gunslinger to take the W.P. Quickdraw. I would say his O.C.C. abilities trumped the skill as a superior version. I would compare this to someone with the "Boxing" martial art (from Rifter 7 I believe) taking the "Boxing" skill. If you allow it, more power to you.

In my opinion it illustrates a progression of the gunslingers training.

[barna10]

I would not allow a Gunslinger to take the W.P. Quickdraw. I would say his O.C.C. abilities trumped the skill as a superior version. I would compare this to someone with the "Boxing" martial art (from Rifter 7 I believe) taking the "Boxing" skill. If you allow it, more power to you.

In my opinion it illustrates a progression of the gunslingers training.

...that is useless unless the Gunslinger has a high P.P.

[The Galactus Kid]

Reroll your stats until you have a high P.P. Regardless, I think this all comes down to personal play preference. If you want to change it, feel free. I'm just stating my position that I've never had a problem with any gunslinger as they are written.

[rat_bastard]

I would not allow a Gunslinger to take the W.P. Quickdraw. I would say his O.C.C. abilities trumped the skill as a superior version. I would compare this to someone with the "Boxing" martial art (from Rifter 7 I believe) taking the "Boxing" skill. If you allow it, more power to you.

In my opinion it illustrates a progression of the gunslingers training.

...that is useless unless the Gunslinger has a high P.P.

well, the minimum PP for a gunslinger is 19, so even if you rolled a 3 you'd end up with a 19.

[barna10]

I would not allow a Gunslinger to take the W.P. Quickdraw. I would say his O.C.C. abilities trumped the skill as a superior version. I would compare this to someone with the "Boxing" martial art (from Rifter 7 I believe) taking the "Boxing" skill. If you allow it, more power to you.

In my opinion it illustrates a progression of the gunslingers training.

...that is useless unless the Gunslinger has a high P.P.

well, the minimum PP for a gunslinger is 19, so even if you rolled a 3 you'd end up with a 19.

Actually, minimum P.P. is 17. Initiative Bonuses start at 18...

Doesn't change the fact that it doesn't get better with experience.

[barna10]

Reroll your stats until you have a high P.P. Regardless, I think this all comes down to personal play preference. If you want to change it, feel free. I'm just stating my position that I've never had a problem with any gunslinger as they are written.

Ahhh..thanks. I really wasn't looking for your permission to do what I want in any game I play. I was more looking to have a discussion over something I thought didn't make sense. I could just play a Gunslinger with a 30 P.P. and be done with it if all I was concerned with is having a high initiative bonus, but that is not the problem. I am concerned with the mechanics behind the class.

[The Galactus Kid]

Reroll your stats until you have a high P.P. Regardless, I think this all comes down to personal play preference. If you want to change it, feel free. I'm just stating my position that I've never had a problem with any gunslinger as they are written.

Ahhh..thanks. I really wasn't looking for your permission to do what I want in any game I play. I was more looking to have a discussion over something I thought didn't make sense. I could just play a Gunslinger with a 30 P.P. and be done with it if all I was concerned with is having a high initiative bonus, but that is not the problem. I am concerned with the mechanics behind the class.

I've already stated the fact that I don't have a problem with the mechanics behind the class. I think its symbolic of the years of training that it takes to become a gunslinger and there is a limit to how fast you can EVER learn to draw based on your P.P. The gunslinger is still the undisputed champ of quickdraw and sharphooting, and as you can see by my combat example above, he totally schools mystic knights. Don't view it as me giving you permission. View it as me re-stating my position that I don't see anything wrong with the class as it is written.