Ley Line Walker vs Juicer, who won? Check it out

[Grinning Demon]

Ok so I'm making a character for my friends campaign and finally decided on either a Juicer or a Ley Line Walker. I was so torn between both of them so I decided to make up character sheets for both of them then compare them that way. After doing this I was still torn so I decided the best way was to pit them in combat against each other to see a) which one was more powerful and b) which one was more fun to play. Both characters are 4th level and I'll list them below:

4th level Human Juicer Assassin
8 attacks per round (9 with rifle)
TX-J50 EBA 90 MDC
JA-12 Laser Rifle 1d6x10+10 on a pulse
Grenades 4D6
FIWS 1d6x10 per dual blast
Vibro Claws (2) 3D6 MD per arm

4th level True Atlantean Ley Line Walker
6 attacks per melee
309 PPE
Combat Mage Armor 50 MDC plus 50 MDC from Armor of Ithan
MR-10 MageFire Bolt TW Rifle 1d6x10+10

I played it gladiator style with opponents starting roughly 1000ft from each other. The whole fight lasted 4 melee rounds. First round the LLW got initiative and cast invisibility which was in his favor but I was rolling very well for the Juicer (3 crits!) Even with the crits the LLW was holding his own, and managed to get the Juicer at death's door with several castings of Sub-Particle Acceleration. The Juicer just refused to die, made every save vs other magic spells (Befuddle, Blinding Flash). By the 3rd melee round the LLW was invisible, impervious to energy, and flying 400ft in the air. The only thing the Juicer had that could damage the LLW at that point was the grenade launcher on the JA-12. Again he was rolling high and hit several times but it wasn't enough, on the 5 attack of the 4th melee the Juicer finally fell (while reloading his grenades). At the end the fight LLW had 49 PPE left out of 307, his combat Mage Armor had been destroyed, he'd gone through one casting of Armor of Ithan (40 MDC), one Invulnerability Tattoo (300!! MDC) and was on his 3rd casting of Armor of Ithan. He had hit the Juicer with 4 castings of Sub Particle Acceleration (3 brought down his armor, last one killed the Juicer), fired one shot of his rifle (which was dodged), cast Blinding Flash twice and Befuddle once all three of which the Juicer saved against. I'd also like to note despite having a -9 to strike the Juicer managed several times to hit the LLW disrupting his spells.

In conclusion what made the Juicer good were his awesome rolls and his diverse equipment, take those away from him and the fight would have been much more in favor of the LLW. Now I know this is strictly situational and in terms of game play there are things that could have definitely tipped the scales in either direction. I'm also aware that the mage was spending PPE like it was going out of style which in terms of real game play isn't always the case. Nonetheless I think that the LLW is equally at home being a supporting PC in the party as well as being the damage dealer. So to me the answer to both of the above questions are now without a doubt the LLW. Hope this gave anyone who read this a tiny bit of insight into these two O.C.C.'s

[TechnoGothic]

LLW Kickasss big time. Always have.

I still use RMB rules for Magics btw. And the LLW can still pull this off with the right spells against a Juicer.

Carpet of Adhesion can stop the Juicer in place once cast. Making it impossible for the Juicer to Dodge, Move, etc...

Magic however annoys alot of GMs i have found. Who did not think a spell would be useful in creative ways but turned out to be even more useful and disrups the GM "plan" aka "Story".

[Grinning Demon]

LLW Kickasss big time. Always have.

I still use RMB rules for Magics btw. And the LLW can still pull this off with the right spells against a Juicer.

Carpet of Adhesion can stop the Juicer in place once cast. Making it impossible for the Juicer to Dodge, Move, etc...

Magic however annoys alot of GMs i have found. Who did not think a spell would be useful in creative ways but turned out to be even more useful and disrups the GM "plan" aka "Story".

Man the LLW had Carpet of Adhesion and didn't even use it! Forgot about those trapping spells like that one and Magic Net. I agree with you Techno Goth that many many GM's think magic is lame and underpowered and thus never allow contingencies for the PC's creative use of spells. Are the RMB rules for magic that different from the RUE? I have the RMB lying around somewhere but never thought there was that big a difference between the two.

[Grinning Demon]

If it came down to a raw power match, the LLW wins hands down. I don't need a gladiator match to tell me that.

I have always seen juicers (along with Cyber-knights, cyber-docs, rogue scholars and vagabonds, among others) as more role playing characters than anything else. Yes juicers get a lot of nifty abilities, but unless you are real creative, they just can't hold stick to the other classes, especially the mages and psychics.

Well I would put Juicers (power-wise) above all the other classes you mentioned. Auto-dodge against all attacks even from surprise/behind and +2 two attacks per melee is pretty powerful any way you cut it; but you are right in the sense that they are fun to role-play the ADD type character though.

[Lenwen]

Ok so I'm making a character for my friends campaign and finally decided on either a Juicer or a Ley Line Walker. I was so torn between both of them so I decided to make up character sheets for both of them then compare them that way. After doing this I was still torn so I decided the best way was to pit them in combat against each other to see a) which one was more powerful and b) which one was more fun to play. Both characters are 4th level and I'll list them below:

4th level Human Juicer Assassin
8 attacks per round (9 with rifle)
TX-J50 EBA 90 MDC
JA-12 Laser Rifle 1d6x10+10 on a pulse
Grenades 4D6
FIWS 1d6x10 per dual blast
Vibro Claws (2) 3D6 MD per arm

4th level True Atlantean Ley Line Walker
6 attacks per melee
309 PPE
Combat Mage Armor 50 MDC plus 50 MDC from Armor of Ithan
MR-10 MageFire Bolt TW Rifle 1d6x10+10

I played it gladiator style with opponents starting roughly 1000ft from each other. The whole fight lasted 4 melee rounds. First round the LLW got initiative and cast invisibility which was in his favor but I was rolling very well for the Juicer (3 crits!) Even with the crits the LLW was holding his own, and managed to get the Juicer at death's door with several castings of Sub-Particle Acceleration. The Juicer just refused to die, made every save vs other magic spells (Befuddle, Blinding Flash). By the 3rd melee round the LLW was invisible, impervious to energy, and flying 400ft in the air. The only thing the Juicer had that could damage the LLW at that point was the grenade launcher on the JA-12. Again he was rolling high and hit several times but it wasn't enough, on the 5 attack of the 4th melee the Juicer finally fell (while reloading his grenades). At the end the fight LLW had 49 PPE left out of 307, his combat Mage Armor had been destroyed, he'd gone through one casting of Armor of Ithan (40 MDC), one Invulnerability Tattoo (300!! MDC) and was on his 3rd casting of Armor of Ithan. He had hit the Juicer with 4 castings of Sub Particle Acceleration (3 brought down his armor, last one killed the Juicer), fired one shot of his rifle (which was dodged), cast Blinding Flash twice and Befuddle once all three of which the Juicer saved against. I'd also like to note despite having a -9 to strike the Juicer managed several times to hit the LLW disrupting his spells.

In conclusion what made the Juicer good were his awesome rolls and his diverse equipment, take those away from him and the fight would have been much more in favor of the LLW. Now I know this is strictly situational and in terms of game play there are things that could have definitely tipped the scales in either direction. I'm also aware that the mage was spending PPE like it was going out of style which in terms of real game play isn't always the case. Nonetheless I think that the LLW is equally at home being a supporting PC in the party as well as being the damage dealer. So to me the answer to both of the above questions are now without a doubt the LLW. Hope this gave anyone who read this a tiny bit of insight into these two O.C.C.'s

Had I played the Ley Line Walker, I would have downed that Juicer inside of 1 melee round rather easily ..
Carpet of Adhesion ..
Take a hit from their weaponry ..
Magic Net .. (Now the Juicer is not only stuck to the ground , but has no actions to defend or go on the offensive)
And "Meteor" the defensless Juicer three times .. (Can not autododge while in Magic Net)

Thats a total of CoA = 10PPE, Magic Net = 7PPE, Meteor = 75PPE,(x3)

Total PPE spent = 242 PPE. (Leaving me with 67 PPE.)

One dead Juicer. And I only took 1 hit from the Juicer.

[Supergyro]

First round the LLW got initiative and cast invisibility which was in his favor but I was rolling very well for the Juicer (3 crits!)

So, for starters that lets you know exactly how useful the juicer's initiative bonus is, when a ley line walker gets the drop on him. Palladium has a 'the numbers don't matter' problem. When you do the math, you find out that the bonuses that look large (like a +6 on initiative) really aren't.

309 PPE
one Invulnerability Tattoo (300!! MDC) and

Now hold the phone a second.... I call shenanigans here. This is not a representative ley-line walker in any way shape and or form.

[Shark_Force]

First round the LLW got initiative and cast invisibility which was in his favor but I was rolling very well for the Juicer (3 crits!)

So, for starters that lets you know exactly how useful the juicer's initiative bonus is, when a ley line walker gets the drop on him. Palladium has a 'the numbers don't matter' problem. When you do the math, you find out that the bonuses that look large (like a +6 on initiative) really aren't.

309 PPE
one Invulnerability Tattoo (300!! MDC) and

Now hold the phone a second.... I call shenanigans here. This is not a representative ley-line walker in any way shape and or form.

it is a true atlantean ley-line walker though.

regardless, i have to admit i'm a bit surprised. personally, i would have actually expected a well-equipped juicer to win barring the use of a few specific spells. i would probably have expected to see more spells designed to almost end the fight in one shot (like carpet of adhesion, which others mentioned, followed by a wind rush)

[Grinning Demon]

309 PPE
one Invulnerability Tattoo (300!! MDC) and

Now hold the phone a second.... I call shenanigans here. This is not a representative ley-line walker in any way shape and or form.

Well I did state that the LLW was a True-Atlantean, True-Atlanteans can have up to 6 tattoos. It's an RCC ability in conjunction with the LLW's PPE, but then again LLW have no racial requirements. I could have gone bonkers with a Rahu-Man, Demi-God etc, but I didn't. The fight would have lasted maybe a little longer, I didn't have the LLW dodge some of the blasts since the invulnerability tattoo was up, had he cast armor of ithan he probably would have dodged. The main point is that it really wasn't a big point in the fight.

[rat_bastard]

309 PPE
one Invulnerability Tattoo (300!! MDC) and

Now hold the phone a second.... I call shenanigans here. This is not a representative ley-line walker in any way shape and or form.

Agreed 100%

[jaymz]

309 PPE
one Invulnerability Tattoo (300!! MDC) and

Now hold the phone a second.... I call shenanigans here. This is not a representative ley-line walker in any way shape and or form.

Agreed 100%

Also how did he get Sub-particle acceleration? Thats a mid to high level spell?

[rat_bastard]

309 PPE
one Invulnerability Tattoo (300!! MDC) and

Now hold the phone a second.... I call shenanigans here. This is not a representative ley-line walker in any way shape and or form.

Agreed 100%

Also how did he get Sub-particle acceleration? Thats a mid to high level spell?

at least he did not slap him with a purge other...

[jaymz]

309 PPE
one Invulnerability Tattoo (300!! MDC) and

Now hold the phone a second.... I call shenanigans here. This is not a representative ley-line walker in any way shape and or form.

Agreed 100%

Also how did he get Sub-particle acceleration? Thats a mid to high level spell?

at least he did not slap him with a purge other...

or annihilation....

[rat_bastard]

at least he did not slap him with a purge other...

or annihilation....

Trust me, the Juicer would prefer that fate.

[jaymz]

at least he did not slap him with a purge other...

or annihilation....

Trust me, the Juicer would prefer that fate.

The above LLW had enough PPE to cast it too since iirc LLWs can cast it at half cost....yeah here ya go auto dodge a 40ft blast radius that hits period and if you dont get hit you STILL take 4d6x10 md (i think)

[Grinning Demon]

309 PPE
one Invulnerability Tattoo (300!! MDC) and

Now hold the phone a second.... I call shenanigans here. This is not a representative ley-line walker in any way shape and or form.

Agreed 100%

Also how did he get Sub-particle acceleration? Thats a mid to high level spell?

that's a 7th level spell, considering he's 4th level and can basically purchase or learn any spell in the entire game at 1st level it's not a stretch at all; also it's one of the several spells the GM allowed me to start with.

Also will you guys get over the invulnerability tattoo haha! True it really doesn't have anything to do with the LLW (other than most non-magic, non t-man classes wouldn't have the PPE to cast it) but it had almost no effect on the fight at all. It's less efficient than Armor of Ithan at 4th level (8 castings of Armor of Ithan 4th level = 320 MDC, Tattoo = 300 MDC) Again it's nice to get the MDC all at once from the tat but the juicer was doing 30-40 average with his gun so it's not like the LLW was taking massive damage all at once in which case the tat would have been better. Also mentioned in the previous post I didn't have the LLW dodge 3 or 4 attacks from the juicer since I had that tat up, if there was no tat I would have armor of ithan up and dodging. The TA's get roughly 46 PPE from base and magic tattoos, considering I had 49 PPE left again that wasn't an issue.

Again I'm not trying to get into hypothetical spells or why a tattoo isn't indicative of a LLW, these are simply two characters I had made and couldn't decide which one to play, so take what you will from it

[jaymz]

Ah but a LLW cannot just TAKE any spell he wants. Unless the gM gave you money or allowed you to take any spells you wanted the LLW is restricted to 12 spells to start at 1st (3 per level fomr levels 1-4) then +1 per level of advancement equal to or lower than his new level.

Again unless the GM lets you pick ANY spell you want you cant just HAVE a 7th level spell since you, as far as I can tell, create these 4th level characters from scrath and they havent actually been roleplayed yet.

[Grinning Demon]

Ah but a LLW cannot just TAKE any spell he wants. Unless the gM gave you money or allowed you to take any spells you wanted the LLW is restricted to 12 spells to start at 1st (3 per level fomr levels 1-4) then +1 per level of advancement equal to or lower than his new level.

Again unless the GM lets you pick ANY spell you want you cant just HAVE a 7th level spell since you, as far as I can tell, create these 4th level characters from scrath and they havent actually been roleplayed yet.

Again I'm not trying to get into hypothetical spells or why a tattoo isn't indicative of a LLW, these are simply two characters I had made and couldn't decide which one to play, so take what you will from it

[rat_bastard]

OK so a Ley line walker with a serious sugar daddy and extremely rare exclusive magic can beat a juicer...

check.

next we will hear about the Cyborg shock trooper with the greater rune ax versus the chipwell piloting schoolgirl.

[jaymz]

Ah but a LLW cannot just TAKE any spell he wants. Unless the gM gave you money or allowed you to take any spells you wanted the LLW is restricted to 12 spells to start at 1st (3 per level fomr levels 1-4) then +1 per level of advancement equal to or lower than his new level.

Again unless the GM lets you pick ANY spell you want you cant just HAVE a 7th level spell since you, as far as I can tell, create these 4th level characters from scrath and they havent actually been roleplayed yet.

Again I'm not trying to get into hypothetical spells or why a tattoo isn't indicative of a LLW, these are simply two characters I had made and couldn't decide which one to play, so take what you will from it

Ah but see I would declare your character as illiegal as out of the box/from scrath he couldn't have that spell. I am not discussing hypothetical spells or the tatooes, he is an atlantean thus he gets them, there is no issue there.

[Grinning Demon]

Ah but a LLW cannot just TAKE any spell he wants. Unless the gM gave you money or allowed you to take any spells you wanted the LLW is restricted to 12 spells to start at 1st (3 per level fomr levels 1-4) then +1 per level of advancement equal to or lower than his new level.

Again unless the GM lets you pick ANY spell you want you cant just HAVE a 7th level spell since you, as far as I can tell, create these 4th level characters from scrath and they havent actually been roleplayed yet.

Above are the automatic spells the LLW starts with (hence why they are listed under the section Initial Spell Knowledge), that is if the LLW never went out of his way to learn or purchase other spells (which would almost never happen) then those are all the spells he'd ever have. Under the next section of Learning New Spells it states: Additional spells or rituals of any magic level can be learned or purchased at any time regardless of the character's experience level.

P.12-13 of Book of Magic are your friends KS himself and BoM author specifically outline that you shouldn't restrict spells and KS even lets 1st level LLW's start with extra spells in his games! They basically say the ability to learn any spells at any time is one of the only things a LLW has going for it so don't take it away or restrict it. Shifter's start with the highest level spell in the game and can cast it at half the PPE, the Lord Magus at 4th level can select 4-7 spells all from level 7 if he wanted to. So the GM letting a 4th level LLW start with a 7th level spell would be totally 100% acceptable according to everything KS and the author of BoM have said. Thank you come again

[jaymz]

Ah but a LLW cannot just TAKE any spell he wants. Unless the gM gave you money or allowed you to take any spells you wanted the LLW is restricted to 12 spells to start at 1st (3 per level fomr levels 1-4) then +1 per level of advancement equal to or lower than his new level.

Again unless the GM lets you pick ANY spell you want you cant just HAVE a 7th level spell since you, as far as I can tell, create these 4th level characters from scrath and they havent actually been roleplayed yet.

Above are the automatic spells the LLW starts with (hence why they are listed under the section Initial Spell Knowledge), that is if the LLW never went out of his way to learn or purchase other spells (which would almost never happen) then those are all the spells he'd ever have. Under the next section of Learning New Spells it states: Additional spells or rituals of any magic level can be learned or purchased at any time regardless of the character's experience level.

P.12-13 of Book of Magic are your friends KS himself and BoM author specifically outline that you shouldn't restrict spells and KS even lets 1st level LLW's start with extra spells in his games! They basically say the ability to learn any spells at any time is one of the only things a LLW has going for it so don't take it away or restrict it. Shifter's start with the highest level spell in the game and can cast it at half the PPE, the Lord Magus at 4th level can select 4-7 spells all from level 7 if he wanted to. So the GM letting a 4th level LLW start with a 7th level spell would be totally 100% acceptable according to everything KS and the author of BoM have said. Thank you come again

Problem is he has to have access to said spell. Agian out of the box/from scrath he hasnt had that access to LEARN that spell. By the book the LLW can only learn 1 new spell per level of experience equal to or lower than his current level. Anythig else must be pruchased or learned another way ala a teacher or magic shop. So AGAIN unless the GM gave you free reign to pcik ANY spell or gave you the funs to purchase that spell I declare the character illegal since by the OCC itself he cannot learn it on his own as it is too high a level.

[rat_bastard]

the spell is so not the issue compared to the single most powerful tattoo in the game.

[jaymz]

the spell is so not the issue compared to the single most powerful tattoo in the game.

Ther we disagree, the character is true atlantean and unless htere is some restrictin as to what tatooes the character can take...well then he can take it. Is the tatoee boroek? Probably, but the fact he can legally take it out of hte box like that is fine. A spell he cannot take is not so fine....

[Grinning Demon]

OK so a Ley line walker with a serious sugar daddy and extremely rare exclusive magic can beat a juicer...

check.

next we will hear about the Cyborg shock trooper with the greater rune ax versus the chipwell piloting schoolgirl.

LOL. The Juicer was equally well-equipped and took the Juicer Assassin O.C.C. which is notably better than the standard Juicer O.C.C. I think you may have a learning disability of some sort so let me spell it out for you. If the LLW was human instead of a True Atlantean the fight would have gone exactly the same.

Juicer equipment 80,000+ credits for armor; 24,000 credits for FIWS; 50,000 credit for the JA-12 Rifle = 154,000 credits.
LLW: 120,000 for Combat Armor; 56,000 for Magefire gun = 176,000 credits.

Wow a difference of a whopping 22,000 credits. Hardly an uneven match up.

[rat_bastard]

OK so a Ley line walker with a serious sugar daddy and extremely rare exclusive magic can beat a juicer...

check.

next we will hear about the Cyborg shock trooper with the greater rune ax versus the chipwell piloting schoolgirl.

LOL. The Juicer was equally well-equipped and took the Juicer Assassin O.C.C. which is notably better than the standard Juicer O.C.C. I think you may have a learning disability of some sort so let me spell it out for you. If the LLW was human instead of a True Atlantean the fight would have gone exactly the same.

Juicer equipment 80,000+ credits for armor; 24,000 credits for FIWS; 50,000 credit for the JA-12 Rifle = 154,000 credits.
LLW: 120,000 for Combat Armor; 56,000 for Magefire gun = 176,000 credits.

Wow a difference of a whopping 22,000 credits. Hardly an uneven match up.

not including the price of the extra spells are we? and I can do wonderful things with that 22000.

[keir451]

the spell is so not the issue compared to the single most powerful tattoo in the game.

I'd say it's both. I can understand that as a Ture Atlatean the LLW gets tattoos, but I would never allow a 4th level LLW to have access to a 7th level spell, no matter what the books say.
What were the Juicers dodge bonuses? I ran a PA pilot against a Juicer and basically got my but handed to me, I couldn't hit him 75% of the timeand ahd a heck of a time avoiding his attacks even tho' I had a really high PP.

[Grinning Demon]

So AGAIN unless the GM gave you free reign to pcik ANY spell or gave you the funs to purchase that spell I declare the character illegal since by the OCC itself he cannot learn it on his own as it is too high a level.

Um again look at my previous post. Sub Particle Acceleration was just one of the additional spells my GM approved for the character to start with. A 4th level character (by virtue of him being 4th level) is not a newbie or "out of the box." He had to have actually gone adventuring in order to gain those 4 levels, and with the experience system in Rifts the way it is that could have taken him a while. Regardless, it doesn't matter what you think lol it matters what my GM thinks. Since KS is on my side I'm inclined to say that the character is "legal"....whatever that means lol

[Grinning Demon]

OK so a Ley line walker with a serious sugar daddy and extremely rare exclusive magic can beat a juicer...

check.

next we will hear about the Cyborg shock trooper with the greater rune ax versus the chipwell piloting schoolgirl.

LOL. The Juicer was equally well-equipped and took the Juicer Assassin O.C.C. which is notably better than the standard Juicer O.C.C. I think you may have a learning disability of some sort so let me spell it out for you. If the LLW was human instead of a True Atlantean the fight would have gone exactly the same.

Juicer equipment 80,000+ credits for armor; 24,000 credits for FIWS; 50,000 credit for the JA-12 Rifle = 154,000 credits.
LLW: 120,000 for Combat Armor; 56,000 for Magefire gun = 176,000 credits.

Wow a difference of a whopping 22,000 credits. Hardly an uneven match up.

not including the price of the extra spells are we? and I can do wonderful things with that 22000.

like?

[rat_bastard]

the spell is so not the issue compared to the single most powerful tattoo in the game.

I'd say it's both. I can understand that as a Ture Atlatean the LLW gets tattoos, but I would never allow a 4th level LLW to have access to a 7th level spell, no matter what the books say.
What were the Juicers dodge bonuses? I ran a PA pilot against a Juicer and basically got my but handed to me, I couldn't hit him 75% of the timeand ahd a heck of a time avoiding his attacks even tho' I had a really high PP.

you let the bastard get in close, don't do that.

[Grinning Demon]

I'd say it's both. I can understand that as a Ture Atlatean the LLW gets tattoos, but I would never allow a 4th level LLW to have access to a 7th level spell, no matter what the books say.

That's your choice of course! It just so happens it's not an issue since KS, my GM, and I all disagree with you

What were the Juicers dodge bonuses? I ran a PA pilot against a Juicer and basically got my but handed to me, I couldn't hit him 75% of the timeand ahd a heck of a time avoiding his attacks even tho' I had a really high PP.

Remember a Juicer's auto dodge is not as high as his normal dodge, tho it was still +9 or +10 I believe. Sub-Particle Acceleration cannot be dodged however.

[jaymz]

So AGAIN unless the GM gave you free reign to pcik ANY spell or gave you the funs to purchase that spell I declare the character illegal since by the OCC itself he cannot learn it on his own as it is too high a level.

Um again look at my previous post. Sub Particle Acceleration was just one of the additional spells my GM approved for the character to start with. A 4th level character (by virtue of him being 4th level) is not a newbie or "out of the box." He had to have actually gone adventuring in order to gain those 4 levels, and with the experience system in Rifts the way it is that could have taken him a while. Regardless, it doesn't matter what you think lol it matters what my GM thinks. Since KS is on my side I'm inclined to say that the character is "legal"....whatever that means lol

Ok I missed hte line about your GM allowing the spell so that is my bad . I had said however UNLESS YOUR GM LET YOU HAVE THE SPELL then I woudl declare it illegal as by the BOOK you cannot have that spell unless it is purchased or learned from someone. Whetehr KS allows extra spells or not is irrelevant since he is wearing his GM hat in that respect and EVERY GM will have a different take on it.

If your GM allowed hte spell tehn that is fine.

[Lenwen]

This is not a representative ley-line walker in any way shape and or form.

He never said it was a "representative ley line walker .. he said its what he was allowed to start with.

Also how did he get Sub-particle acceleration? Thats a mid to high level spell?

LLW canonly can learn any spell in the game .. at literally any time .. this is not even debatable ..

Ah but a LLW cannot just TAKE any spell he wants.

Yet its flat out ok by you to simply hand the juicer any equipment (Which spells are for casters) and not have an issue with it ?

he spell is so not the issue compared to the single most powerful tattoo in the game.

The LLW would not even need it to take out a juicer ..

A spell he cannot take is not so fine....

LLW can learn any spell literally at any time .. with out restriction .. and being 4th lvl means the character has done its share of travelling an exploring who knows if he was taught it or if he purchased it .. THATS .. not that hard of a stretch to think when considering which Caster class this is about .. the Ley Line Walker ..

The best way to beat a Juicer is two fold ..
1- Do not let them close the range .. period .. end of discussion, this happens an your dead 9 outta 10x ..

2- Area effect .. something they can not "dodge" auto or either .. which means Carpet of Adhesion, then magic net combined with Meteor = Dead Juicer .. and whats more is he only gets 1 attack off at you while you do that ..

LLW with or with out that Invulnerability Tat .. would mop the floor with the Juicer if played smart ..

[keir451]

I'd say it's both. I can understand that as a True Atlatean the LLW gets tattoos, but I would never allow a 4th level LLW to have access to a 7th level spell, no matter what the books say.

That's your choice of course! It just so happens it's not an issue since KS, my GM, and I all disagree with you

What were the Juicers dodge bonuses? I ran a PA pilot against a Juicer and basically got my but handed to me, I couldn't hit him 75% of the timeand ahd a heck of a time avoiding his attacks even tho' I had a really high PP.

Remember a Juicer's auto dodge is not as high as his normal dodge, tho it was still +9 or +10 I believe. Sub-Particle Acceleration cannot be dodged however.

I can respect the fact that your GM allowed for those spells. As for KS, well, I love the game but sometimes, just sometimes I wanna go . My argument against magic things in Rifts is a loooong one (isn't it Lenwen ), but I'll respect your results until I can prove them wrong .
Fair winds and Fun Gaming.

[Lenwen]

I can respect the fact that your GM allowed for those spells. As for KS, well, I love the game but sometimes, just sometimes I wanna go . My argument against magic things in Rifts is a loooong one (isn't it Lenwen ), but I'll respect your results until I can prove them wrong .
Fair winds and Fun Gaming.

hehe ..

[Dustin Fireblade]

Sub-Particle Acceleration cannot be dodged however.

Since when?

[Lenwen]

Meteor can not be dodged ..


40ft Blast radius .. "Carpet of Adhesion" and "Magic Net" on the juicer .. and at most .. 3 Meteor's .. thats one "splatted" Juicer ..

Juicer's can not Dodge .. if they are rooted to the ground .. and netted .. and shot with a blast radius of 40ft area ..

[Lenwen]

If we're talking just AoEing the juicer to death with whatever spell we please, why not just hit him with Annihilate? He may dodge the direct effect of the spell, but he is still going to be blown out of existence from the blast radius.

"Juicer? What juicer? I saw a spider, I swear! I hate spiders..."

Because its more acceptable for a 4th lvl line walker to have the spells .. "Carpet of adhesion" and "Magic Net" as well as "Meteor" ..

Then it is for that same LLW to have the spell "Annihilate" ..

[Dustin Fireblade]

Meteor can not be dodged ..


40ft Blast radius .. "Carpet of Adhesion" and "Magic Net" on the juicer .. and at most .. 3 Meteor's .. thats one "splatted" Juicer ..

Juicer's can not Dodge .. if they are rooted to the ground .. and netted .. and shot with a blast radius of 40ft area ..

That's all fine and great...

Too bad the OP didn't use any of those spells though, which is what I'm talking about here, not what you would do.

[Lenwen]

Meteor can not be dodged ..


40ft Blast radius .. "Carpet of Adhesion" and "Magic Net" on the juicer .. and at most .. 3 Meteor's .. thats one "splatted" Juicer ..

Juicer's can not Dodge .. if they are rooted to the ground .. and netted .. and shot with a blast radius of 40ft area ..

That's all fine and great...

Too bad the OP didn't use any of those spells though, which is what I'm talking about here, not what you would do.

The OP geared each combatent as he saw fit .. not according to how "you" would have .. ergo .. in this very instance .. the OP was the GM of the situation .. and he deemed it was ok for his LLW to have that spell ..

And that "IS" fine an great .. for His situation .. would you not agree ?

[Grinning Demon]

Sub-Particle Acceleration cannot be dodged however.

Since when?

Since always?

Saving Throw: Not applicable.

If they were able to dodge it'd say either under the saving throw or the spell description (it says it neither place). There are several other spells that cannot be dodged that are similiar (i.e Call Lightning)

[Lenwen]

Sub-Particle Acceleration cannot be dodged however.

Since when?

Since always?

Saving Throw: Not applicable.

If they were able to dodge it'd say either under the saving throw or the spell description (it says it neither place). There are several other spells that cannot be dodged that are similiar (i.e Call Lightning)

There is a presidence for what Grinning Demon has just said ..

So I am apt to agree with him on that ..

[Grinning Demon]

Meteor can not be dodged ..


40ft Blast radius .. "Carpet of Adhesion" and "Magic Net" on the juicer .. and at most .. 3 Meteor's .. thats one "splatted" Juicer ..

Juicer's can not Dodge .. if they are rooted to the ground .. and netted .. and shot with a blast radius of 40ft area ..

That's all fine and great...

Too bad the OP didn't use any of those spells though, which is what I'm talking about here, not what you would do.

Yes it's true I didn't optimize the spells of the LLW in combat, years of GMing Rifts have by extension made me a less than optimized PC. FWIW the LLW had both Carpet of Adhesion and Magic Net. I guess it even further proves the LLW's power since even using less than optimized spells against the Juicer the he was still able to win.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Sub-Particle Acceleration cannot be dodged however.

Since when?

Since always?

Saving Throw: Not applicable.

If they were able to dodge it'd say either under the saving throw or the spell description (it says it neither place). There are several other spells that cannot be dodged that are similiar (i.e Call Lightning)

There is a presidence for what Grinning Demon has just said ..

So I am apt to agree with him on that ..

Then you are both wrong.

Since the Rifts Main Book came out in 1990...

Physical magical attacks such as energy bolt, fire bolt (etc) and similar attacks in which a visible, real physical force is being used, can not be avoided by rolling a saving throw. In those instances, the saving throw does not apply. However the physical attacks can be dodged like any physical attack.

Federation of Magic, unrevised, page 127 says the same exact thing.

RUE, page 188 pretty much says the same as well

[Dustin Fireblade]

Meteor can not be dodged ..


40ft Blast radius .. "Carpet of Adhesion" and "Magic Net" on the juicer .. and at most .. 3 Meteor's .. thats one "splatted" Juicer ..

Juicer's can not Dodge .. if they are rooted to the ground .. and netted .. and shot with a blast radius of 40ft area ..

That's all fine and great...

Too bad the OP didn't use any of those spells though, which is what I'm talking about here, not what you would do.

The OP geared each combatent as he saw fit .. not according to how "you" would have .. ergo .. in this very instance .. the OP was the GM of the situation .. and he deemed it was ok for his LLW to have that spell ..

And that "IS" fine an great .. for His situation .. would you not agree ?

Do you see anywhere in his description he used those spells? The only one who talked about using those spells was you, and has no bearing on the OP's (and yours) statement that Sub-Particle Acceleration cannot be dodged. Which was the point I was making if you missed it.

[Lenwen]

However the physical attacks can be dodged like any physical attack.

Federation of Magic, unrevised, page 127 says the same exact thing.

RUE, page 188 pretty much says the same as well

Wrong .. Pg188 of Rue states ..

The spell description will indicate if a character can roll to save, dodge, or is automatically struck with no chance to do either.

Which is not even close to being what you just tried to imply it stated ..

[Lenwen]

Meteor can not be dodged ..


40ft Blast radius .. "Carpet of Adhesion" and "Magic Net" on the juicer .. and at most .. 3 Meteor's .. thats one "splatted" Juicer ..

Juicer's can not Dodge .. if they are rooted to the ground .. and netted .. and shot with a blast radius of 40ft area ..

That's all fine and great...

Too bad the OP didn't use any of those spells though, which is what I'm talking about here, not what you would do.

The OP geared each combatent as he saw fit .. not according to how "you" would have .. ergo .. in this very instance .. the OP was the GM of the situation .. and he deemed it was ok for his LLW to have that spell ..

And that "IS" fine an great .. for His situation .. would you not agree ?

Do you see anywhere in his description he used those spells? The only one who talked about using those spells was you, and has no bearing on the OP's (and yours) statement that Sub-Particle Acceleration cannot be dodged. Which was the point I was making if you missed it.

And the point I am trying to make which is being ignored ..

a 4th lvl Line Walker can in fact learn ANY SPELL IN THE GAME .. AT ANY TIME !!

Period .. end of discussion its not a debat .. thats canon .. if he said his Line Walker has it .. guess what ..

He has it .. like it or not .. dodge it or not ..

Ta.

[Dustin Fireblade]

However the physical attacks can be dodged like any physical attack.

Federation of Magic, unrevised, page 127 says the same exact thing.

RUE, page 188 pretty much says the same as well

Wrong .. Pg188 of Rue states ..

The spell description will indicate if a character can roll to save, dodge, or is automatically struck with no chance to do either.

Which is not even close to being what you just tried to imply it stated ..

Yes?

Do you think that somehow means that the Sub-Particle spell isn't a physical force? S

[Dustin Fireblade]

Meteor can not be dodged ..


40ft Blast radius .. "Carpet of Adhesion" and "Magic Net" on the juicer .. and at most .. 3 Meteor's .. thats one "splatted" Juicer ..

Juicer's can not Dodge .. if they are rooted to the ground .. and netted .. and shot with a blast radius of 40ft area ..

That's all fine and great...

Too bad the OP didn't use any of those spells though, which is what I'm talking about here, not what you would do.

The OP geared each combatent as he saw fit .. not according to how "you" would have .. ergo .. in this very instance .. the OP was the GM of the situation .. and he deemed it was ok for his LLW to have that spell ..

And that "IS" fine an great .. for His situation .. would you not agree ?

Do you see anywhere in his description he used those spells? The only one who talked about using those spells was you, and has no bearing on the OP's (and yours) statement that Sub-Particle Acceleration cannot be dodged. Which was the point I was making if you missed it.

And the point I am trying to make which is being ignored ..

a 4th lvl Line Walker can in fact learn ANY SPELL IN THE GAME .. AT ANY TIME !!

Period .. end of discussion its not a debat .. thats canon .. if he said his Line Walker has it .. guess what ..

He has it .. like it or not .. dodge it or not ..

Ta.

If it had some bearing on the discussion Lenwen it might be more relevant. I don't recall stating anything about the LLW leaning any spell. I do recall only seeing you talk about those spells on how you would defeat the Juicer, not the OP. The OP only stated he had the spells later anyway and chose not to use them.

That's all great. For some reason you felt the need to bring it up about using those spells and dodging, after I asked the OP about the Sub-Particle spell. In which it had no relevance to that particular part of the discussion.

[Lenwen]

Dustin .. its only too easy .. for a Ley Line Walker to abuse a Juicer ..

If the Juicer does not down that Ley Line Walker in the first action/attack .. that Line Walker will win rather easily ..

That's not even debatable .. and it only gets more apparent as they level up ..

[Dustin Fireblade]

Dustin .. its only too easy .. for a Ley Line Walker to abuse a Juicer ..

If the Juicer does not down that Ley Line Walker in the first action/attack .. that Line Walker will win rather easily ..

That's not even debatable .. and it only gets more apparent as they level up ..

Which isn't part of the debate. I'm not challenging that.

Personally I hate Juicers and thought it pretty funny with your combo to kill them. Only I'd use less damaging spells to embarrass them first.