Anybody think its weird that the Naruni's "Stealth" PA...

[anarchclown]

Not going to look it up right now but it sounds kind of strange yes.

[Dog_O_War]

Why would it need the inferior system employed by the variable camouflage armour?

The Variable suit shows up on radar; the Stealth only has a 20% chance to.

The Variable has a set 21% chance to be detected by thermo-optics; the Stealth gives a -70% chance to detect it. So, barring bonuses from class or IQ, you'd have to be atleast 9th level to have even a 5% chance of detecting the Stealth.

The Variable offers a +5% bonus to prowl (which is promptly stripped away ), while the Stealth gives +15%; clearly whatever the Stealth employs for a camo system is far superior the the Variables' "15-60 seconds crappy camo-pattern" system. Basically the Variable armours' camouflage skin is an auto-paint job for the environment your in.

You can already get camouflage bonuses via paint; the Variable system is actually terrible at doing what it does.
Take a look at Merc Ops pg.109 at the Northern Gun produced Stealth ghillie suit. This suit provides a better bonuses in all environments over the Variable armour, and it only costs 3,500 credits - and can be worn over standard body armour! So you could pay 75-100,000 credits for an armour that's hard to find outside of Merctown and illegal in the CS. OR you could buy an armour attachment for any and every body armour you own for better bonuses at less than 1/20th the price.




Also, I've always hated the variable camouflage armour; that stupid "+5% to prowl with a -5% prowl mobility penalty" always rubbed me the wrong way.

[Hannibal]

@ Dog:

But that "prowl bonus offset by mobility penalty" problem won't be just for the Variable Camo Armor but also for whoever wears the Ghillie suit over any heavier armor. In other words, the Ghillie suit's bonus is still gonna be negated by the penalty to physical skills that most armor suits over 50 or 60 MDC have. Actually, having only a -5% mobility issue for a 80MDC armor (ie the Naruni suit) is not bad at all, and the fact that it basically breaks even is a pretty good deal. I agree with you that the price on the Ghillie is nice, but it's one a one-environment-at-a-time kind of suit, whereas with the variable armor it'll blend into any environment. You pay for the flexibility, but I think it's worth it.

[Shark_Force]

@ Dog:

But that "prowl bonus offset by mobility penalty" problem won't be just for the Variable Camo Armor but also for whoever wears the Ghillie suit over any heavier armor. In other words, the Ghillie suit's bonus is still gonna be negated by the penalty to physical skills that most armor suits over 50 or 60 MDC have. Actually, having only a -5% mobility issue for a 80MDC armor (ie the Naruni suit) is not bad at all, and the fact that it basically breaks even is a pretty good deal. I agree with you that the price on the Ghillie is nice, but it's one a one-environment-at-a-time kind of suit, whereas with the variable armor it'll blend into any environment. You pay for the flexibility, but I think it's worth it.

his cancelling out issue was not with the ghillie suit. it's with the variable camo armor, which doesn't incorporate the ghillie suit at all, and in fact has nothing whatsoever to do with the ghillie suit.

[Hannibal]

@ Dog:

But that "prowl bonus offset by mobility penalty" problem won't be just for the Variable Camo Armor but also for whoever wears the Ghillie suit over any heavier armor. In other words, the Ghillie suit's bonus is still gonna be negated by the penalty to physical skills that most armor suits over 50 or 60 MDC have. Actually, having only a -5% mobility issue for a 80MDC armor (ie the Naruni suit) is not bad at all, and the fact that it basically breaks even is a pretty good deal. I agree with you that the price on the Ghillie is nice, but it's one a one-environment-at-a-time kind of suit, whereas with the variable armor it'll blend into any environment. You pay for the flexibility, but I think it's worth it.

his cancelling out issue was not with the ghillie suit. it's with the variable camo armor, which doesn't incorporate the ghillie suit at all, and in fact has nothing whatsoever to do with the ghillie suit.

Oh I'm well aware, and frankly I don't think you read what my post correctly. He wrote that, "Also, I've always hated the variable camouflage armour; that stupid "+5% to prowl with a -5% prowl mobility penalty" always rubbed me the wrong way." My point is that the problem wouldn't be unique to the variable armor. Any moderate to heavy armor he puts the ghillie suit on is going to have the bonus negated by the fact that there's a penalty to mobility. If anything, it's a good that the camo bonus negates some/all of a penalty to prowl from the armor.

[Shark_Force]

@ Dog:

But that "prowl bonus offset by mobility penalty" problem won't be just for the Variable Camo Armor but also for whoever wears the Ghillie suit over any heavier armor. In other words, the Ghillie suit's bonus is still gonna be negated by the penalty to physical skills that most armor suits over 50 or 60 MDC have. Actually, having only a -5% mobility issue for a 80MDC armor (ie the Naruni suit) is not bad at all, and the fact that it basically breaks even is a pretty good deal. I agree with you that the price on the Ghillie is nice, but it's one a one-environment-at-a-time kind of suit, whereas with the variable armor it'll blend into any environment. You pay for the flexibility, but I think it's worth it.

his cancelling out issue was not with the ghillie suit. it's with the variable camo armor, which doesn't incorporate the ghillie suit at all, and in fact has nothing whatsoever to do with the ghillie suit.

Oh I'm well aware, and frankly I don't think you read what my post correctly. He wrote that, "Also, I've always hated the variable camouflage armour; that stupid "+5% to prowl with a -5% prowl mobility penalty" always rubbed me the wrong way." My point is that the problem wouldn't be unique to the variable armor. Any moderate to heavy armor he puts the ghillie suit on is going to have the bonus negated by the fact that there's a penalty to mobility. If anything, it's a good that the camo bonus negates some/all of a penalty to prowl from the armor.

ok... so you don't see it as being potentially annoying if i was to offer you 5 dollars plus 3 dollars minus 25 cents minus 4 dollars plus 73 cents for something instead of just straight up offering you 4.48 for something, and i have no real reason for doing so? the ghillie suit is separate from the armor. it needs to have it's bonus listed separately from the penalty of the armor. the stealth armor is, unsurprisingly, part of the stealth armor. there is no need to list the bonus and the penalty when they cancel each other out.

[Hannibal]

@ Dog:

But that "prowl bonus offset by mobility penalty" problem won't be just for the Variable Camo Armor but also for whoever wears the Ghillie suit over any heavier armor. In other words, the Ghillie suit's bonus is still gonna be negated by the penalty to physical skills that most armor suits over 50 or 60 MDC have. Actually, having only a -5% mobility issue for a 80MDC armor (ie the Naruni suit) is not bad at all, and the fact that it basically breaks even is a pretty good deal. I agree with you that the price on the Ghillie is nice, but it's one a one-environment-at-a-time kind of suit, whereas with the variable armor it'll blend into any environment. You pay for the flexibility, but I think it's worth it.

his cancelling out issue was not with the ghillie suit. it's with the variable camo armor, which doesn't incorporate the ghillie suit at all, and in fact has nothing whatsoever to do with the ghillie suit.

Oh I'm well aware, and frankly I don't think you read what my post correctly. He wrote that, "Also, I've always hated the variable camouflage armour; that stupid "+5% to prowl with a -5% prowl mobility penalty" always rubbed me the wrong way." My point is that the problem wouldn't be unique to the variable armor. Any moderate to heavy armor he puts the ghillie suit on is going to have the bonus negated by the fact that there's a penalty to mobility. If anything, it's a good that the camo bonus negates some/all of a penalty to prowl from the armor.

ok... so you don't see it as being potentially annoying if i was to offer you 5 dollars plus 3 dollars minus 25 cents minus 4 dollars plus 73 cents for something instead of just straight up offering you 4.48 for something, and i have no real reason for doing so? the ghillie suit is separate from the armor. it needs to have it's bonus listed separately from the penalty of the armor. the stealth armor is, unsurprisingly, part of the stealth armor. there is no need to list the bonus and the penalty when they cancel each other out.

Dude, unlike your (no offense) awful money analogy, Palladium has very good reasons to list both the prowl bonus and mobility penalty: first, the mobility penalty affects more than just prowl, so they don't just "cancel" each other out entirely. Second, people would be up in arms wondering why there wasn't a prowl bonus for the armor (the armor generates the expectation, afterall) if there wasn't one listed, even if it gets offset later.

THAT SAID, to be fair, the book does only say "Fair Mobility: -5% prowl." I am, of course, assuming that they meant -5% as a general mobility penalty that would affect other physical skills as well, like they list out for numerous other armors with a mobility penalty. If, however, you stick 100% with the letter of the book and think it applies to only prowl and no other physical skills (your prerogative, of course), then it certainly negates the first reason listed above as to why they need it listed.

But let me note, Dog said he hated the armor itself, not just the way both the +/- were written out. But again, hating the armor itself for the reason that they bonus/penalties offset is kinda' weird, b/c any heavy armor is going to have a mobility/prowl penalty, and slapping the ghillie suit on may negate some of that penalty, but is not going to give you an overall + to prowl.

[TechnoGothic]

The Variable Camo-Effect can be turned off. Leaving you with the normal Prowl Penality of -5%.
When turned On, The Variable Camo-Effect give you a +5% Prowl (Visual Prowl). Your less likely to to be seen of course. But you might still be heard.

This really needs to be explained better with Suits of Armor. The Differences between Visual Prowl and Audio Prowl is completely different and important.