Question on Cyber-Knight Cyber Armor

[zombietots]

Is the point of CK cyber armor just to add that little something extra for when he is out of his regular Body Armor, or does it add extra protection for when the, say main body get punched through? (Using the original Rulebook Crusader Armor 55 M.D.C. main body is finally destroyed. The next shot does 6 MD to the main body. Does this now go to the cyber armor, and if so, does it need to beat the A.R.? what if it does beat the A.R.? will that insta-kill the CK even though the exposed areas are actually still covered by Crusader Armor?


Or should I just use my own judgment?

[Grazzik]

The original point was, I'm guessing, an attempt to partly justify the "Cyber" in "Cyber-Knight"...

Yes, it adds protection after any overlying body armor is no longer effective.

Yes, beating AR with a 6 MD shot would ordinarily be an insta-kill to most SDC squishies.

This is why all Cyber-Knights wear exterior suits of M.D. armor.

If you stare too deeply into the player's sad puppy dog eyes as they realize their PC is insta-killed, you may be compelled to contemplate the nature of the damage and simply have them lose a shoulder or blast away their kidney, appendix and most of their intestines, but have the blast cauterize the wound just enough for them to be shoved into a MAU-500 they find lying around (WB34 pg 235).

[zombietots]

Just so I completely understand. If all the main body MDC is gone and the next shot hits the main body and goes over the A.R. it will insta-kill the CK even though the squishy parts are actually still covered (Such as the head still in Crusader helmet) by the Crusader armor?

[Grazzik]

Just so I completely understand. If all the main body MDC is gone and the next shot hits the main body and goes over the A.R. it will insta-kill the CK even though the squishy parts are actually still covered (Such as the head still in Crusader helmet) by the Crusader armor?

Yes.

It is usually assumed that AR doesn't apply to MDC armor, so it can be easy to overlook the AR game mechanic for the exceptions. However, AR applies where the body is partially exposed - such as cyber-armor and the TacVest (MercOps pg 109).

To put it simply, rolling over the AR of MDC armor (where applicable) means that the shot found that spot that either had no plating or hit the gap between spaced plates. The PC/NPC could be wearing a helmet, armored boots, greaves, vambraces... everything other than the main body part, and all those other pieces of armor would simply be loot for scavengers after the insta-kill.

To hit the helmet or any part of the armor other than the main body requires a called shot.

However, if the target is curled up in a ball using their armored forearms and shins to provide cover for their unprotected main body, I'd use some common sense and grant them at least that little bit of grace and say the damage hits the remaining armor. But, if they are standing upright relying solely on their cyber-armor, that rolled 19 is gonna sting bad...

[zombietots]

Thanks for the help

[Grazzik]

Thanks for the help

You're welcome!

[ShadowLogan]

I agree the Cyber-Armor is an underlayer of armor for added protection.

However, the AR is really only applicable to SDC combat. Combat assumes strikes automatically go to the "main body" (except in common sense situations like stepping on a land mine would go to the legs) and to hit anything else requires making a called shot. So even if you rolled a Nat 20 with a MD attack, the attack still hits the Cyber-Armor (or TacVest or Triax Plain Clothes) and ignores the AR. The AR works normally for an SDC attack.

[Grazzik]

However, the AR is really only applicable to SDC combat. Combat assumes strikes automatically go to the "main body" (except in common sense situations like stepping on a land mine would go to the legs) and to hit anything else requires making a called shot. So even if you rolled a Nat 20 with a MD attack, the attack still hits the Cyber-Armor (or TacVest or Triax Plain Clothes) and ignores the AR. The AR works normally for an SDC attack.

Not according to WB5 pg 37...

Armor Rating (A.R.): The "plain clothes" armor does not protect the entire body...Any roll above the armor rating will penetrate the armor and hit the character's body. Mega-damage weapons will kill most humans instantly or destroy a limb and send that character into shock.

6 MD = 600 SD, so insta-kill.

[rem1093]

However, the AR is really only applicable to SDC combat. Combat assumes strikes automatically go to the "main body" (except in common sense situations like stepping on a land mine would go to the legs) and to hit anything else requires making a called shot. So even if you rolled a Nat 20 with a MD attack, the attack still hits the Cyber-Armor (or TacVest or Triax Plain Clothes) and ignores the AR. The AR works normally for an SDC attack.

Not according to WB5 pg 37...

Armor Rating (A.R.): The "plain clothes" armor does not protect the entire body...Any roll above the armor rating will penetrate the armor and hit the character's body. Mega-damage weapons will kill most humans instantly or destroy a limb and send that character into shock.

6 MD = 600 SD, so insta-kill.

This is why I always wear a MDC uni-suit under my body armor. As for the cyber knights. An easy fix is just have that when the armor goes bio armor, it fills the gaps so no AR.

[Grazzik]

This is why I always wear a MDC uni-suit under my body armor.

Yup, standard practice.

As for the cyber knights. An easy fix is just have that when the armor goes bio armor, it fills the gaps so no AR.

Yeah, that would be a good house rule. The armor already mystically fuses with the knight and deteriorates when they die... might as well have it encase the knight in combat to avoid the AR rules.

[ShadowLogan]

Not according to WB5 pg 37...

Which appears to be an exception to the regular rules for the Plain Clothes Armor, not in general. There are other MDC clothing that don't function with an AR (Altaran Bodysuits being the most prominent that comes to mind).

"Armor Ratings to not apply to combat robot, bionics, power armor, or any Mega-Damage Capacity (M.D.C) structures. Either you strike and do damage, or you miss."-RMB pg39 (Hardcover)

Spoiler:

if we go back to the MDC progenitor, 1E Robotech book 1 pg35 "Armor Ratings do not aply to Mecha or Mega-Damage Capacity (M.D.C). Either you strike and do damage, or you miss." There is also a bullet list that states "Armor Ratings do not apply when up against a weapon that inflicts mega-damage. This is always true!"

Interestingly there are Mecha with an AR rating in that book that are stated as MDC on pg71 (x1 of 2), pg72-3 (x4 of 4), pg75-6 (has x3 with AR and a mix of MDC and SDC), and pg66 (Spartan Destroid, dated designation but in 2E/current this would be the Phalanx Destroid)

"An Armor Rating (A.R) only applies to S.D.C. armor and combat. Mega-Damage armor, robots, monsters and animals with M.D.C hides don't get an A.R (Armor Rating) and any damage inflicted by a successful strike (hit) inflicts damage to the M.D.C)."-RUE pg339 (this book is a mess in terms of organization)

"And Armor Rating (A.R) does not apply to M.D.C. structures or armor unless the armor does not cover the entire body. Even then, however, the attacker has to take careful aim and make a Called Shot]/i] to hit an unprotected part of the body."-RUE pg355 (as this is newer than WB5...).

The 2nd bit from RUE can be explained given that attacks always strike the main body unless a Called Shot is made, which is where the MDC protection is in terms of Cyber-Armor or PCA-style. You can take aim for an exposed limb, BUT it will cost x2 attacks (x3 if Aimed) as you must do a Called Shot.

[Grazzik]

Why does the cyber-armor have AR in the first place?... it's because (like the TacVest and plain clothes) it doesn't cover the entire main body.

Cyber-Armor is only grafted to the chest, shoulders, shoulder blades, and thighs

That leaves the main body below the chest exposed. The AR is to function as a determinant of whether that unexposed section of the main body is hit. The description goes on to confirm it is an exception to the normal handling of MDC armor, with no mention of called shots added by RUE.

this is one of the few Mega-Damage armors that has an Armor Rating: A.R. 16 . A roll above the A.R. 16 means an unprotected portion of the body has been hit and damaged

One could argue that the Cyber-Knight version is different, but RUE pg 65 also explicitly indicates that main body is just a chest plate. No mention of articulated plates or strips over the Knight's likely chiseled abs. Also, I'd point out that with time, the AR goes up with experience levels and I've always read that as the armor becoming more form fitting and spreading out over the main body giving better protection.

For the TacVest and plain clothes armor, the selective placement of strips/plates leaves portions of the main body exposed too. Altaran bodysuits don't have AR as they cover the entire main body portion. Sure, in the art they are skimpy looking, but the point is that the entire main body is covered and as such there is no part of the main body at risk.

RMB pg39 (Hardcover), RUE pg339, and RUE pg355

Agreed, this is canon for normal MDC things that don't have SDC bits exposed - though as quoted above, cyber-armor is an exception and hence the use of AR. Doubly agreed re messy organization! Let's hope it gets better in Rifts: MegaUltimate Edition...

The 2nd bit from RUE can be explained given that attacks always strike the main body unless a Called Shot is made

No argument there, as this called shot rule deals with the unprotected limbs and head. However, when it comes to the unprotected parts of the main body (the non-chest part, that in my personal instance is a larger target), I'd compromise by saying the shooter has two options - specifically target the unprotected part of the main body with a called shot (at the cost of the extra action, but lower strike roll), or use the AR rule and just shoot center mass maybe hitting the chest, maybe hitting the gut (at the cost of the higher strike roll, but in one action).

Of course, some folks might like to keep it simple and avoid the extra math by just ignoring AR with anything MDC, and I'd fully support that. No one likes to spend a ton of credits on cyber implants or dedicate years to perfecting one's martial art philosophy, only to have a one shot kill from a Wilk's 210 Pocket Pistol.

[Plane]

Not according to WB5 pg 37...

Which appears to be an exception to the regular rules for the Plain Clothes Armor, not in general. There are other MDC clothing that don't function with an AR (Altaran Bodysuits being the most prominent that comes to mind).

"Armor Ratings to not apply to combat robot, bionics, power armor, or any Mega-Damage Capacity (M.D.C) structures. Either you strike and do damage, or you miss."-RMB pg39 (Hardcover)

Spoiler:

if we go back to the MDC progenitor, 1E Robotech book 1 pg35 "Armor Ratings do not aply to Mecha or Mega-Damage Capacity (M.D.C). Either you strike and do damage, or you miss." There is also a bullet list that states "Armor Ratings do not apply when up against a weapon that inflicts mega-damage. This is always true!"

Interestingly there are Mecha with an AR rating in that book that are stated as MDC on pg71 (x1 of 2), pg72-3 (x4 of 4), pg75-6 (has x3 with AR and a mix of MDC and SDC), and pg66 (Spartan Destroid, dated designation but in 2E/current this would be the Phalanx Destroid)

"An Armor Rating (A.R) only applies to S.D.C. armor and combat. Mega-Damage armor, robots, monsters and animals with M.D.C hides don't get an A.R (Armor Rating) and any damage inflicted by a successful strike (hit) inflicts damage to the M.D.C)."-RUE pg339 (this book is a mess in terms of organization)

"And Armor Rating (A.R) does not apply to M.D.C. structures or armor unless the armor does not cover the entire body. Even then, however, the attacker has to take careful aim and make a Called Shot]/i] to hit an unprotected part of the body."-RUE pg355 (as this is newer than WB5...).

The 2nd bit from RUE can be explained given that attacks always strike the main body unless a Called Shot is made, which is where the MDC protection is in terms of Cyber-Armor or PCA-style. You can take aim for an exposed limb, BUT it will cost x2 attacks (x3 if Aimed) as you must do a Called Shot.

SDC settings had two kinds of AR - the "exposure type" (ie hit the jointsi n the platemail) and what we term "natural AR" like where you had to strike above the AR of a dragon in the Palladium RPG to damage it.

I took the 'no AR for MDC' to refer to "no natural AR" and not "no exposure AR" because the idea of exposure-AR not existing for MDC suits has no logic behind it.

[Grazzik]

SDC settings had two kinds of AR - the "exposure type" (ie hit the jointsi n the platemail) and what we term "natural AR" like where you had to strike above the AR of a dragon in the Palladium RPG to damage it.

I took the 'no AR for MDC' to refer to "no natural AR" and not "no exposure AR" because the idea of exposure-AR not existing for MDC suits has no logic behind it.

That's a good way of putting it, since there are multiple types of AR and the books aren't always clear. Rifts games I run are house ruled as SDC @ 1:10 and all MDC armor has AR to add some gritty reality, rather than comic book fantasy. However, I still like being clear on what is RAW because not everyone shares the same house rules.

[Mlp7029]

Yes it provides protection after the other armor is gone. Yes the to hit roll needed to exceed the cyber armor’s AR but it is MD armor and MD armor can’t be bypassed by AR roll so despite what Palladium May have said about cyber armor you could go either way and have a rule to back you up. We play the unmodified to hit roll must exceed because we think that is cannon but that is not what many feel. Given the Palladium system does not have a mechanic for what body part is hit unless you do a call shot and even then negative modifiers would seem to be in order but what they would be is left to GM discretion. I am assuming you think 6 MD would go through the cyber armor which it might if the armor was already damaged. Anyway if a PC gets hit with an instant kill of any kind I commute their death to a limb getting blown off. My version of the GI Joe rule from RUE. Sorry if I rambled I am retired and these forensic are my only chance to talk about gaming so I ramble.

[Plane]

Yes it provides protection after the other armor is gone. Yes the to hit roll needed to exceed the cyber armor’s AR but it is MD armor and MD armor can’t be bypassed by AR roll so despite what Palladium May have said about cyber armor you could go either way and have a rule to back you up. We play the unmodified to hit roll must exceed because we think that is cannon but that is not what many feel.

There is zero reason for them to apply AR to cyber-armor (plus I believe the partial MDC armor in Triax+NGR book) if they didn't intend for that to be used.

That's just an artifact of Robotech's introduction of MDC when in the past (like HU2) superpowers and robots had "natural AR" to represent toughness.