Mist of... not so much

[Mack]

Was glancing over the Air Warlock spell Mist of Death (BoM p64) when I realized just how bad of a spell this is. The math really doesn't support it.

Problem 1) It inflicts 4D6 to Hit Points, but only if the victim has bare skin or breathes it. So right from the start there's a lot of folks who'll be unaffected.

Problem 2) It has a standard savings throw. So prior to any bonuses (for either the caster or the victim) there's a 45% chance of the victim taking no damage.

Problem 3) It doesn't do enough damage to really cause "death." Even a first level character will have 4D6 hit points prior to any bonuses. So the attack will need to have an above average damage roll.

Ignoring the first problem and applying some math to the second and third, a first level human victim will have a 70% chance of surviving the attack. A third level will have a 93% chance, and a fifth a 99% chance.

Before I looked over it was already a spell I'd skip if the situation ever came up. Now it's one that I question why anyone would take it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's a spell that was way more effective when it was first made, Mack. Remember Air Warlorks are a Palladium fantasy OCC in the conversion book. that dosn't make them automatically as well suited to Rifts however.

1: In Palladium fantasy, Enviromental Armor does not exist, period. even full plate mail is porous and has gaps. so it basically worked on everyone and everything.
3: 4d6 damage to HP is plenty when the average HP of a first level character was 13. there were no OCC's with a bonus to PE, like, at all, and nothing like juicers or such, nothing but a few physical skills. so take an average PE roll, add 1d6, and if you took a physical skill or two add the PE bonus from that. it had a roughly 46% chance of killing an average first level character, and when your HP for any character is between 20-40 or maybe 50 or so for high level characters, 4d6 is fatal in only a few castings.

and 2, well, a lot of good spells don't work at all if they save. Dominate turns any enemy into a friend if they fail the save. And in Palladium Fantasy, it was pretty good enogh to warrent it

[dragonfett]

It still has a much better shot at one shotting a character than most other spells because the damage is done directly to hit points and also affects supernatural creatures as well. It would be nice if the damage at least scaled with the level of the caster (+1d6/two levels of the caster sounds reasonable to me), but still it is a spell that should scare anyone not in EBA because it by passes armor and SDC.

[ShadowLogan]

@Mack
1) I would say the majority of folks in the world are vulnerable if you use it correctly. This seems more useful as a "terror" spell than a "combat" spell because of the ways to protect one self. You'd use this on "peasants" and "off-duty soliders"(who are likely aren't sealed up tight) or "cheaply equipped ready-action soliders" (ex Dogboys in non-EBA) and not "ready-action soliders" (ie sealed up).

2. That can be a problem, but only if the victim has a high PE or training. The Average PE isn't going to give a bonus, nor are Character Classes. IINM Warlocks can't pick this at 1st level either and would need to be Level 6, which could mean their saving throw is higher due to better spell strength (+2 Spell Strength for Level 6 per RCB1r Warlock OCC on pg 68). So you math might be off due to faulty assumptions as a 1st Level character isn't going to be able to cast this, nor is a RAW Rune Weapon (they'd be equal to 6th Level spell strength).

3. "Death", no it likely isn't going to push anyone into the necessary negative hit points for death but it can leave them in a coma, which without proper care w/n the time window is the same as death. Now MDC creatures still take damage. At least without a house rule that the damage is per action spent inside the mist/cloud it isn't likely to be as "deadly" as it could be. Though compared to "Cloud of Steam", this is positively deadly because you are starting with HP and not SDC (and can even attack MDC creatures), granted both spells have similar vulnerability requirements.

Relating to all of them really: It is also an area effect attack (small as it is), meaning for 40 PPE you can attack multiple targets. Which means per person it might be "cheaper" and "faster" than casting another spell multiple times depending on how vulnerable the targets might be.

It is also one of the few spells IINM that are not over kill to attack SDC/HP creatures as in Rifts there are a lot of options for dealing MD, but few for SDC/HP, especially for an Air Warlock.

[Mack]

Other thoughts...

1: In Palladium fantasy,

Yes, it was a PF spell but it's lineage doesn't matter. It's not effective in Rifts.

...and when your HP for any character is between 20-40 or maybe 50 or so for high level characters, 4d6 is fatal in only a few castings.

At 40 PPE per use, there plenty of better ways for an Air Warlock to kill someone.

1) I would say the majority of folks in the world are vulnerable if you use it correctly...

I agree that there niche uses for this spell, but given the limited spell selection of a Warlock I can't see any of them making this spell a higher priority than others available.

2. That can be a problem, but only if the victim has a high PE or training. The Average PE isn't going to give a bonus, nor are Character Classes. IINM Warlocks can't pick this at 1st level either and would need to be Level 6, which could mean their saving throw is higher due to better spell strength (+2 Spell Strength for Level 6 per RCB1r Warlock OCC on pg 68). So you math might be off due to faulty assumptions as a 1st Level character isn't going to be able to cast this, nor is a RAW Rune Weapon (they'd be equal to 6th Level spell strength).

I never claimed a 1st level character could cast it. I listed the odds "prior to any bonuses (for either the caster or the victim)." Yes, a 6th level Warlock has a +2 to spell strength, but that does not materially affect the outcome for this spell. Against a first level human, the victim survives 65% of the time. A third level survives 92% of the time, and a fifth 99%. And that's without any save vs magic bonuses.

It is also an area effect attack (small as it is), meaning for 40 PPE you can attack multiple targets.

Agreed! The AoE is the one positive part of this spell. It just doesn't outweigh all the negatives.

.................

Let me put it this way: If we sat down to build a Level 6 (or higher) Air Warlock, how many of us would pick this spell as part of our limited repertoire?

[Svartalf]

And AoE can as easily be a liability as an advantage... I remember the time when I had to switch characters because my fire warlock only had AoE spells, and my party mates did not mind me at all and rushed to melee ASAP so the character was basically useless because he could not act without harming his comrades.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Mack: True, but being poorly designed for Rifts dosn't seem to me to be an issue when it wasn't designed to be designed for rifts, so prehaps i'm not seeing the problem.

Mind, this is really just a nitpick. Air Warlock is one of the most useful for Rifts overall, Electro-magnatism, breath of life, globe of true daylight...it's true, most air warlocks have better things to take than Mist of Death. in fact, they have so many Better options that even if it had no saving throw and worked through armor, it still likely wouldn't be worth taking

[ShadowLogan]

I agree that there niche uses for this spell, but given the limited spell selection of a Warlock I can't see any of them making this spell a higher priority than others available.

Except I think its more of niche objection to rate the spell against those clad in EBA (or EBA-level or better protection) given the members of the population who would actually have EBA+ protection. As I said this is more of a "terror" spell than a "combat" spell, so it requires using it against the right type of opponents or waiting for the right time.

I think for a player/GM to make any spell(s) (or even Psychic powers) a priority over others for their character(s) means they have an idea of how they want to employ the spell(s). So while a typical Warlock might pass X-spell over, that doesn't mean there aren't atypical Warlocks who have a use for it.

I never claimed a 1st level character could cast it. I listed the odds "prior to any bonuses (for either the caster or the victim)." Yes, a 6th level Warlock has a +2 to spell strength, but that does not materially affect the outcome for this spell. Against a first level human, the victim survives 65% of the time. A third level survives 92% of the time, and a fifth 99%. And that's without any save vs magic bonuses.

No, but you assumed a 1st Level Character was casting it if you ignore bonuses for the caster. Warlock's can not take this spell until 6th Level, a non-warlock might (I don't know off hand, Fusionists can't even take the spell), and if the caster is essentially a Rune Weapon it will be of a specified strength.

There are two rolls that determine how lethality here: the save vs Magic and the damage to Hit Points. Save vs Magic situation isn't influenced by level for the defender in most cases, just the caster.

Surviving Hit Point damage favors higher level characters yes, but taking any type of Hit Point damage should be a concern (and it is in the text for all practical purposes). There are Optional Rules about taking significant Hit Point Damage causing side effects. Rifts Main Book pg11 had optional rules for this (printed in other Main books too IINM). RCB1r sort of has something similar pg21. RUE is absent something like the two previous but on pg288 could be seen as requiring a victim of the spell to seek medical care (or take additional damage of 1HP per minute) and pg354 doesn't dispute this (though it allows upto 10 HP to be "non-critical").

Let me put it this way: If we sat down to build a Level 6 (or higher) Air Warlock, how many of us would pick this spell as part of our limited repertoire?

Personally it would come down to if it was a PC or NPC, and what I wanted to do with said character.

[Killer Cyborg]

The spell should be more powerful on Rifts Earth.
If the damage isn't boosted by 100, then the range, duration, or some other aspect should be.

[Shark_Force]

i think you're looking at it the wrong way.

it isn't necessarily going to instantly kill people the first time you cast it. but this spell is a devastating spell for hit and run.

cast it (especially into tight quarters) and run. rest a bit. come back later. unless they have some pretty major healing capabilities, they probably haven't recovered much of it. hit them again. or even if they move out, and you hit them on their next action.

damage direct to HP is pretty handy. add on top of that the potential to turn friendly fire off (if your own group have environmental armour, for example) and while it might not be amazing, i could definitely see myself choosing it in some scenarios. i don't know if i'd consider it to be top 3 for a level 6 warlock... there are a couple that i would say definitely take priority, and then it's a bit of a toss-up... but i could definitely see it in the right situation.

edit: oh, and don't forget about ley lines and nexuses. it could be a one-shot in the right situation...

[Axelmania]

You could go with its original Rifts state in page 67 of the Conversion Book, used to be a static 30 points of damage direct to hit points (no dice) before Book of Magic needed it for whatever reason.

4D6 is the amount it does on PF page 226 so an increase to 30 in Rifts seems reasonable.

First edition Palladium RPG had it do a static 20 points on page 85 so Rifts was a 50% increase in damage. Given that if we are going go switch from static to variable then doing 6D6 instead of 4D6 seems entirely reasonable.

First edition is still better though. 20 flat beats 14 average.

[eliakon]

And for what its worth, HP damage is not trivial to heal. Once you cause that damage it takes a bit of time to get them back. More than a few things only heal SDC for instance.

[Blue_Lion]

Well as the spell was converted in the age of the old rifts rpg book (some call the rifts main book) lets see what people had for hp.
HP was PE(base)+1d6. That makes it 4d6 for non exceptional charters. I would say that will be fairly high risk of killing some one. Quite simply it is a fairly significant amount of hp to loose from a single attack. It is also a AOE so draining that much HP in most PB sdc games would be a signficant blow.

Note we can see from death blow that attacks straight to hp are considered to be able to have the deadly tittle. Deadly might just be a qualifier for attacks straight to hp in this case.

Loosing 14 hp is fairly significant for an attack to do regardless of your sdc. SDC damage is minor wounds while hit points are significant critical wounds. Recovery without a doc takes 1 week. If bleeding rules are in place the attack can cause charters to bleed out. Deepening on the type of toxic mist this could be bleeding in the lungs.

[Axelmania]

I think HP has to go below 30% before internal bleeding sets in, 4D6 could easily get you there.

[kaid]

Was glancing over the Air Warlock spell Mist of Death (BoM p64) when I realized just how bad of a spell this is. The math really doesn't support it.

Problem 1) It inflicts 4D6 to Hit Points, but only if the victim has bare skin or breathes it. So right from the start there's a lot of folks who'll be unaffected.

Problem 2) It has a standard savings throw. So prior to any bonuses (for either the caster or the victim) there's a 45% chance of the victim taking no damage.

Problem 3) It doesn't do enough damage to really cause "death." Even a first level character will have 4D6 hit points prior to any bonuses. So the attack will need to have an above average damage roll.

Ignoring the first problem and applying some math to the second and third, a first level human victim will have a 70% chance of surviving the attack. A third level will have a 93% chance, and a fifth a 99% chance.

Before I looked over it was already a spell I'd skip if the situation ever came up. Now it's one that I question why anyone would take it.

Also note stuff like this could wind up being decent vs non environmental hodgepodge armors. If your armor is not sealed tight there is going to be bare skin for it to effect. Still it is a spell more designed for non advanced worlds EBA armor pretty much negates it but also shows why EBA armor is really really nice.

One other use for it is the old silent but deadly kill. Cast it on a camp/barracks no big booms/blasts to alert people until people start getting wrecked and then try to figure out what is doing it to you fast enough not to die from it.

Also note that most magic users do NOT use fully sealed armor and large swaths of even north america you have people using things like fetish armor/dino armor like the native americans and most of the inhabitants of the dinosaur swamp.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Points out that a person can't be in their armor all the time and a smart warlock would just be using this spell when it would affect the targets. Thus, very useful verses men in barracks or in a bar/tavern. Or….riding animals.
Yes, the 40 PPE cost seams high, if you are only considering the damage it does to ONE target. But if there are 3 or more targets then the damage will be greater then what most spells will deliver.

But if you also note that it does MD to MDC beings. Thus, useful verses groups of SN beings.

The complaint is made from a PoV that only concerned about pitched battles/firefights, and not concerned about thinking sneaky/smart.

I see no reason for the spell to be modified to an M's standards.

[Axelmania]

Originally in the Conversion Book, an Air Elemental Intelligence (Major) could throw the mist 9000 feet away and affect a 1000 foot area and it did 15 MD to mega-damage creatures (as opposed to 4D6 MD to supernatural creatures or creatures of magic). I'm not sure if the new version in Book of Magic would do anything to MDC creatures who were not supernatural or a creature of magic, they might be immune to it.

I never like the 'area' use in spells though, diameter/radius is easier to understand... a whole thread could probably be dedicated to trying to consolidate examples of what 'area' refers to. Usually you'd think that would be square feet or something but for all I know the author meant radius or diameter.

This spell never used to get through Armor of Ithan either, that's a new benefit from PF2 which BoM inherited.

[kaid]

Originally in the Conversion Book, an Air Elemental Intelligence (Major) could throw the mist 9000 feet away and affect a 1000 foot area and it did 15 MD to mega-damage creatures (as opposed to 4D6 MD to supernatural creatures or creatures of magic). I'm not sure if the new version in Book of Magic would do anything to MDC creatures who were not supernatural or a creature of magic, they might be immune to it.

I never like the 'area' use in spells though, diameter/radius is easier to understand... a whole thread could probably be dedicated to trying to consolidate examples of what 'area' refers to. Usually you'd think that would be square feet or something but for all I know the author meant radius or diameter.

This spell never used to get through Armor of Ithan either, that's a new benefit from PF2 which BoM inherited.

I think they that was also a change due to all the various armor spells some of the higher level ones now give you some environmental protection.

And this mist is pretty nasty because a simple respirator is not enough like the standard leyline walker armor would not protect you against it even if you had your mask on because there would still be areas of exposed skin for it to effect. Given that it works as long as it can come into contact with bare skin short of full environmental armor it would take effect.

Plus side for an AOE spell if your own party IS in EBA armor you can drop this right on their head in combat without danger of friendly fire.

[Blue_Lion]

I think HP has to go below 30% before internal bleeding sets in, 4D6 could easily get you there.

It is actually if you loose half or more of your hp. So yea the spell can easily trigger that for a charter.

[Axelmania]

It could actually be both, there have been a variety of interesting blood loss rules that kick in at different times, since they're all optional it's also an option to stack them up for really bloody games.

RUE 354's loss of 1 HP per minute at 1/2 HP...
and Conversion Book Revised page 21's loss of 1 SDC (HP if SDC is gone) per minute per wound if stabbed/cut/shot...
and Conversion Book Revised page 22's loss of 1 HP per minute if below 15% of HP...
all three help to make injuries scary and first aid necessary. First/Third combined mean a total of 2 HP per minute below 15, even more if you got to that state by things which make open wounds.

CBRp21-2 stuff is also on GMGp36. I think HU and PF also have some other rules which, since it's all optional, we could also stack on.

[Blue_Lion]

As I understand it Third was over written by the first. They do not stack it was changing the % if they stacked that defiantly would have been worth mentioning in RUE.

[Axelmania]

Not necessarily since its all optional so commission does no harm.

[Mack]

I appreciate all the inputs on this topic, even if I don't agree with them all. (I've been on the road all week and am just now getting back to this.)

If time permits, I may run some more analysis on the spell's effectivity.

[kaid]

It's not an every day useful spell but it situationally is pretty handy although more of an NPC mustasch twirling terror tool.