Enchanted Weapon question: PPE?

[Regularguy]

Plenty of the Enchanted Weapon's powers don't burn up PPE: flying, nightvision, animating the dead, returning to the wielder when thrown, and et cetera. What about the "invisible" effect? "Identical to the Wizard spell Invisibility: Superior", it says -- and likewise for "Cloud of Smoke: Same as the spell". And so on. Are those supposed to include the need for PPE like spells, or are they supposed to be as free of charge as the lightning bolts and the superhuman strength?

[eliakon]

Free of PPE.
Their effects are the same, but they just 'work'.

[Severus Snape]

Effects that are innate to the object do not use PPE.

[Regularguy]

Good to know, thanks. (And, man, does that make Enchanted Object look even worse by comparison.)

[eliakon]

Good to know, thanks. (And, man, does that make Enchanted Object look even worse by comparison.)

yes, the Enchanted Weapons got a HUGE buff in 2e

[Axelmania]

"identical to the Wizard spell Invisibility: Superior"
"speak any language at will, same as the spell"
"Words of Truth: same as the Wizard spell"
"Cloud of Smoke: Same as the spell"

Terms like "identical" and "same" would mean you have to pay the PPE cost unless told otherwise.

Are we told otherwise in a later supplement or FAQ?

[eliakon]

"identical to the Wizard spell Invisibility: Superior"
"speak any language at will, same as the spell"
"Words of Truth: same as the Wizard spell"
"Cloud of Smoke: Same as the spell"

Terms like "identical" and "same" would mean you have to pay the PPE cost unless told otherwise.

Are we told otherwise in a later supplement or FAQ?

"Unless otherwise stated, there is no lime to how often a power can be used by its champion, and it is presumed to be in force as needed."

These are not granted spells that you cast. They are magical effects that are either always on, or can be invoked at will.
This is especially important since the weapons do not always have a PPE score to draw upon, and even if they did it would not be sufficient to allow an unlimited number of castings of a spell. The reason they are described as being same as the spell is that there is only one effect in the game that compels people to tell the truth...the Words Of Truth spell. So if you need to know what its effects are you go look up that spell and note that this ability is identical to that one. Now if it said 'grants the ability to cast the Words of Truth spell' it would be different. But instead it is granting a magical ability that is invoked at will that mimics the spell in question.

Example If it was granting the ability to cast Words of Truth 10 times per day then it would have to have a PPE pool of exactly 150 PPE. No more, no less....and it could only regenerate its PPE in one day blocks instead of the usual rates. Otherwise you can't have the ability to use the effect 10x daily. Where as if it simply invokes an identical effect then yah, the ability to be invoked ten times a day works, and can be totally independent of PPE pool size, or regeneration.

[Axelmania]

That part you quoted could refer to the per-day limit, like what Words of Truth has.

PPE costs aren't a limit to how often you can do something, just what is required to do it. Kind of like how costing a melee attack limits how often you can do an ability.

Or if you view PPE as 'how often', then the "identical to" / "same as" statements are an otherwise indication.

[eliakon]

That part you quoted could refer to the per-day limit, like what Words of Truth has.

PPE costs aren't a limit to how often you can do something, just what is required to do it. Kind of like how costing a melee attack limits how often you can do an ability.

Or if you view PPE as 'how often', then the "identical to" / "same as" statements are an otherwise indication.

If you can do something at will an unlimited number of times that is exactly a 'how often'
Or put it more simply
Two thirds of all magic weapons have no PPE (01-66 results give powers not spells)
But there are six selections of abilities that provide a power 'the same as a spell'
Either that means that either those powers are not selectable (three for each type of weapon)

So either you are putting in a new, unstated limitation stating that there are really only 12 powers and not 15 powers to pick from for 2/3 of weapons, and that the remaining third do not actually have the power listed, but instead provide the ability to cast a spell....
OR
The powers as listed function exactly like the text says, and they are powers that function identically to spells.

Especially telling since the power description explicitly says that "they are presumed to be in force as needed" which if you are saying that, for instance the Tongues power is not really in effect as needed, but must be cast (even if you don't have spell casting) and then burns up a (potentially significant chunk of the weapons PPE...assuming that there is any) for five minutes per level.....

Hmmmmm
I am going to have to say that it is pretty clear that these do not cost PPE anymore than the fireball does, or flight, or levitation or any of the other abilities.

[Nightmask]

"identical to the Wizard spell Invisibility: Superior"
"speak any language at will, same as the spell"
"Words of Truth: same as the Wizard spell"
"Cloud of Smoke: Same as the spell"

Terms like "identical" and "same" would mean you have to pay the PPE cost unless told otherwise.

Are we told otherwise in a later supplement or FAQ?

Actually no that's not what that would mean, it would mean that the ability FUNCTIONS in all ways as listed for the spell, NOT that it requires PPE to be expended in order for it to function.

[Axelmania]

You are inserting the word function where it is absent. It is "identical to" and "same as". This includes activation time and activation cost.

This is not me adding anything unstated, the words identical and same are statements which assign the usual PPE cost and slow spellcasting times.

If you think these operate faster (like in a melee attack) or cheaper (like costing less or 0 PPE) that needs text to support.

[Nightmask]

You are inserting the word function where it is absent. It is "identical to" and "same as". This includes activation time and activation cost.

This is not me adding anything unstated, the words identical and same are statements which assign the usual PPE cost and slow spellcasting times.

If you think these operate faster (like in a melee attack) or cheaper (like costing less or 0 PPE) that needs text to support.

Yes you are indeed adding things, because it does not in fact mean it includes activation time or activation cost. The text already covers that they do not in fact require PPE to function as has already been pointed out since they couldn't be used as frequently as stated if they required PPE and if they required PPE they'd certainly provide a boost to PPE to cover the need for it. As spell-like powers provided by the Enchanted Weapon they cost no PPE unless you see an explicit note that something indeed requires PPE and we see no such notes.

[eliakon]

You are inserting the word function where it is absent. It is "identical to" and "same as". This includes activation time and activation cost.

This is not me adding anything unstated, the words identical and same are statements which assign the usual PPE cost and slow spellcasting times.

If you think these operate faster (like in a melee attack) or cheaper (like costing less or 0 PPE) that needs text to support.

Yes, it grants an ability that operates the same as the ability provided by the spell.
It does not grant the ability to cast the spell.
The ability has the same effects as the spell it emulates but it is not the spell itself.

[Axelmania]

Yes you are indeed adding things, because it does not in fact mean it includes activation time or activation cost. The text already covers that they do not in fact require PPE to function as has already been pointed out since they couldn't be used as frequently as stated if they required PPE and if they required PPE they'd certainly provide a boost to PPE to cover the need for it. As spell-like powers provided by the Enchanted Weapon they cost no PPE unless you see an explicit note that something indeed requires PPE and we see no such notes.

It does mean it includes that, that's what words like same/identical mean. If it worked almost the same, that would be similar, not same.

Which text says they don't need PPE to function?

If you want a PPE boost then you can get that by taking the ability to cast spells yourself instead of the 2 minor or 1 major. Even then it's not all that impressive. You can select up to spells from level 8 this way, which can cost up to 40 PPE. That means at 1st level, to be able to cast one of those once, a Weapon of Chaos holder (who get more PPE per level than Weapon of Order holders) would need at least PE 10.

Since it is possible to have PE that is too low to support your spellcasting even when you get a wider range of spellcasting, it is believable that it can also be the case where a weapon gives you the power to cast a spell and you can't cast it.

Keep in mind though that according to page 316 that in the world of HU, teenagers have PPE of 6D6+PE. This is nearly as much PPE as you get if you select the magic spells option, it just doesn't benefit as much from PE bonuses you might get from powers... but as someone who selects powers you CAN actually get a PE-boosting superpower while someone who only gets magic spells would not have that option.

These spells also cost less:

Level 2 Cloud of Smoke costs 2
Level 6 Tongues costs 12
Level 6 Words of Truth costs 15
Level 7 Invisibility Superior costs 20

This is cheaper than the 30-40 PPE costs you can come across with the available level 8 spells as a caster.

I don't see anything stopping someone with a magic weapon from sleeping or meditating to get their PPE back. In fact, since they are part of the magic category, they could probably draw PPE from ley lines and other people just like the Wizard can.

The low PPE of adults would be a big limitation, which could explain incentive to pass down the magic weapon to a teenager with attitude once got too old to activate your Superior Invisibility and Truth Words.

Yes, it grants an ability that operates the same as the ability provided by the spell.
It does not grant the ability to cast the spell.
The ability has the same effects as the spell it emulates but it is not the spell itself.

The descriptions do not only talk about the effects being the same, it doesn't mention effects at all. It says "same as" or "identical to", this means it's the same and indentical in EVERY aspect unless otherwise indicated.

Words of Truth does operate differently: it has a 10/day limit, which is a limit on how often it can be used.

The requirements of activating an ability are not an 'often' limit. You can throw as many fireballs as you have melee attacks, so it's effectively unlimited, except by its activation cost. Lightning bolt is different though, since it does have a 1/15 second limit.

I do get why you want these to be unlimited though, since lightning/fire resemble spells, it only seems fair.

This is probably why there is likely some Rifter Errata out there waiting to be re-located which does state they don't require any PPE to use. But until we find that I still think they do.

[eliakon]

Just looking at Words of Truth we can already see it can't be giving you the spell (and since the sword does not grant spell casting it can't be)
That spell costs 15 PPE. This means you would need 150 PPE to cast it

Since you start as an adult, the maximum you can have is 12+PE Assuming for a minute that they have a reasonably decent PE of 18 this gives us a total of 30 PPE

If we spend that right away we need to get 120 PPE back to cast the remaining 8 castings
Since weapons users are explicitly said to not be able to use ley lines they will have to use rest at 5 PPE per hour.
Thus if we start at midnight
1:00:15 Cast twice
4:00:15 Cast third time
7:00:15 Cast fourth time
10:00:15 Fifth
13:00:15 sixth
16:00:15 Seventh
19:00:15 Eigth
21:00:15 ninth
And we run out of time before we get our tenth casting. So right there we are now seeing that we have just been denied the use of the power as written.
If we have two of the 'spells' the situation gets worse and if you have all of the 'spells' as powers it becomes ludicrous.

Never mind the fact that if you need PPE then you do not have the power 'as needed' but only a couple uses.


Which would allow seven castings before we have now crossed over the 24hr mark

[Nightmask]

Yes you are indeed adding things, because it does not in fact mean it includes activation time or activation cost. The text already covers that they do not in fact require PPE to function as has already been pointed out since they couldn't be used as frequently as stated if they required PPE and if they required PPE they'd certainly provide a boost to PPE to cover the need for it. As spell-like powers provided by the Enchanted Weapon they cost no PPE unless you see an explicit note that something indeed requires PPE and we see no such notes.

It does mean it includes that, that's what words like same/identical mean. If it worked almost the same, that would be similar, not same.

Which text says they don't need PPE to function?

If you want a PPE boost then you can get that by taking the ability to cast spells yourself instead of the 2 minor or 1 major. Even then it's not all that impressive. You can select up to spells from level 8 this way, which can cost up to 40 PPE. That means at 1st level, to be able to cast one of those once, a Weapon of Chaos holder (who get more PPE per level than Weapon of Order holders) would need at least PE 10.

Since it is possible to have PE that is too low to support your spellcasting even when you get a wider range of spellcasting, it is believable that it can also be the case where a weapon gives you the power to cast a spell and you can't cast it.

Keep in mind though that according to page 316 that in the world of HU, teenagers have PPE of 6D6+PE. This is nearly as much PPE as you get if you select the magic spells option, it just doesn't benefit as much from PE bonuses you might get from powers... but as someone who selects powers you CAN actually get a PE-boosting superpower while someone who only gets magic spells would not have that option.

These spells also cost less:

Level 2 Cloud of Smoke costs 2
Level 6 Tongues costs 12
Level 6 Words of Truth costs 15
Level 7 Invisibility Superior costs 20

This is cheaper than the 30-40 PPE costs you can come across with the available level 8 spells as a caster.

I don't see anything stopping someone with a magic weapon from sleeping or meditating to get their PPE back. In fact, since they are part of the magic category, they could probably draw PPE from ley lines and other people just like the Wizard can.

The low PPE of adults would be a big limitation, which could explain incentive to pass down the magic weapon to a teenager with attitude once got too old to activate your Superior Invisibility and Truth Words.

You really just keep ignoring the fact that they are not in fact spells and are not in fact being cast and do not in fact require PPE because they are not in fact spells they are powers that function like the spells in question but do not in fact require PPE or the rest since they again are not spells. Since as eliakon points out they cannot be both spells that require PPE and also meet the requirement of always being available then logically they cannot in actual fact be spells that are cast but powers that FUNCTION like the spells but do not require PPE because they aren't spells that are being cast.

[Axelmania]

Nightmask if it says identical to / same as a spell, that includes every aspect, including PPE cost.

Just looking at Words of Truth we can already see it can't be giving you the spell (and since the sword does not grant spell casting it can't be) That spell costs 15 PPE. This means you would need 150 PPE to cast it. Since you start as an adult, the maximum you can have is 12+PE Assuming for a minute that they have a reasonably decent PE of 18 this gives us a total of 30 PPE

To cast it enough to be impeded by the 10/day limit, you would need 150, right. I don't understand the first part. Whether you call it spellcasting or something works the same as spellcasting doesn't make a difference.

You're already making a 'since you start as an adult' assumption. Page 25 says you can generally assume late teens to mid-20s. "Late teens" would have more PPE than at any stage of life. It says to use education as a guideline, so obviously Mr. PhD would have 2D6 but a Street-Schooled/High-School character would be perfect for this. It's actually game-balancing, there's a plus for having lower education.

If we spend that right away we need to get 120 PPE back to cast the remaining 8 castings
Since weapons users are explicitly said to not be able to use ley lines they will have to use rest at 5 PPE per hour.

If you are referring to page 317's "ley lines have no effect on enchanted weapons, enchanted objects, and mystically bestowed characters" that in no way restricts the WIELDER of an enchanted object/weapon from drawing on ley line PPE, which they would be able to do, since they are in the Magic Superbeing Category, which makes them practitioners of magic. This would also make them capable of drawing on other people's PPE or meditating.

Page 149 also elaborates on how an Enchanted Object wielding character is unaffected by ley lines. That's clearly just reminding you that no, ley lines don't double your super abilities like they double spells. Drawing PPE from a ley line isn't being affected by the ley line, it's you affecting the ley line and sucking goo out of it. Also, excepted from "object, powers and character" in that statement is spells, so the spells you can cast on 34-00 from an Enchanted Objects would still benefit.

However you take this, there is no 'ley lines don't affect you' disclaimer under Magic Weapons.

if you need PPE then you do not have the power 'as needed' but only a couple uses.

Page 152 under "Other Magic Abiltiies of the Wizard" (Mystic Study) says "can be used as often as desired".

That doesn't actually mean that the requirements of using them won't prohibit this, they still have PPE costs.

Page 298 says "regenerate as often as once every other minute".

Statements like these do not automatically override everything else like point costs, which will interfere with these promises if not fulfilled.

The sentence you quoted from begins with 'unless stated otherwise', and working identically as a spell comes with all the fixins, including PPE cost. You need an otherwise statement to have it work differently than a spell (not costing PPE) to over-ride this, which would be a subsequent rules change, one which wouldn't be bad.

[eliakon]

Nightmask if it says identical to / same as a spell, that includes every aspect, including PPE cost.

No. You keep insisting that. But it is not how that is used in Palladium. In Palladium (and in every other game I am aware of) the statement that something grants a power identical to a different kind of power means that you use the effects. This is why when the skill Dream Time Lore grants 'sense evil identical to the psionic power' it does something....because with out granting psionics (which can not be done via skill training in Palladium) it would not be possible to work....no ISP etc...

Just looking at Words of Truth we can already see it can't be giving you the spell (and since the sword does not grant spell casting it can't be) That spell costs 15 PPE. This means you would need 150 PPE to cast it. Since you start as an adult, the maximum you can have is 12+PE Assuming for a minute that they have a reasonably decent PE of 18 this gives us a total of 30 PPE

To cast it enough to be impeded by the 10/day limit, you would need 150, right. I don't understand the first part. Whether you call it spellcasting or something works the same as spellcasting doesn't make a difference.

You're already making a 'since you start as an adult' assumption. Page 25 says you can generally assume late teens to mid-20s. "Late teens" would have more PPE than at any stage of life. It says to use education as a guideline, so obviously Mr. PhD would have 2D6 but a Street-Schooled/High-School character would be perfect for this. It's actually game-balancing, there's a plus for having lower education.

So....what your claiming is that the sword has the secret, unlisted limitation that they only work if you pick one of them (even though it explicitly says you can pick multiple). AND that they only work for kids.....
Hmmm, lets see....or we can go with what they actually wrote and just say they grant you spell like powers.....
I wonder which one is more likely?

If we spend that right away we need to get 120 PPE back to cast the remaining 8 castings
Since weapons users are explicitly said to not be able to use ley lines they will have to use rest at 5 PPE per hour.

If you are referring to page 317's "ley lines have no effect on enchanted weapons, enchanted objects, and mystically bestowed characters" that in no way restricts the WIELDER of an enchanted object/weapon from drawing on ley line PPE, which they would be able to do, since they are in the Magic Superbeing Category, which makes them practitioners of magic. This would also make them capable of drawing on other people's PPE or meditating.

The wielder is the character. If a ley line has no effect on them, then they can not use the effect that says you can tap it for PPE.
Period.
Only the Mystic Study class is allowed to tap it for PPE.
And no, they are not a "man of magic" since it also explicitly says that they do not become one.
Again you can only use the abilities of your own class, not other classes.

Page 149 also elaborates on how an Enchanted Object wielding character is unaffected by ley lines. That's clearly just reminding you that no, ley lines don't double your super abilities like they double spells. Drawing PPE from a ley line isn't being affected by the ley line, it's you affecting the ley line and sucking goo out of it. Also, excepted from "object, powers and character" in that statement is spells, so the spells you can cast on 34-00 from an Enchanted Objects would still benefit.

In HU, it is clearly and explicitly listed as one of the 'effects of a ley line'
If you do not get the effects of a ley line, you can not then go and use one of those effects.
That is what the 'no effects' limit means.

However you take this, there is no 'ley lines don't affect you' disclaimer under Magic Weapons.

You mean other than the statement that ley lines have no effect on them?

if you need PPE then you do not have the power 'as needed' but only a couple uses.

Page 152 under "Other Magic Abiltiies of the Wizard" (Mystic Study) says "can be used as often as desired".

That doesn't actually mean that the requirements of using them won't prohibit this, they still have PPE costs.

Page 298 says "regenerate as often as once every other minute".

Statements like these do not automatically override everything else like point costs, which will interfere with these promises if not fulfilled.

The sentence you quoted from begins with 'unless stated otherwise', and working identically as a spell comes with all the fixins, including PPE cost. You need an otherwise statement to have it work differently than a spell (not costing PPE) to over-ride this, which would be a subsequent rules change, one which wouldn't be bad.

Except that you are making the (false) assumption that this is granting the ability to cast a spell. That is not what the text says. Period.
There is no text saying you gain spell casting. If you do not have spell casting you can not cast spells. Period. Thus they can not have spells to cast as they do not have the ability.
Your welcome to implement this nerf as a house rule to limit the power of magic weapons in your personal game if you like. But it is, by no stretch, canon.

[Axelmania]

I would like to consult this Dream Time Lore you're talking about, what page is it on?

Page 297 does talk about Sense Evil amongst other psionics as abilities that some animals have. It doesn't specify no ISP cost here but I think it might have in other books which talk about animal psionics.

The limitation is not unlisted, by saying it works like the spell you are saying it works with the same limitations as a spell, even it is a power that duplicates the spell. About the only difference in function I can see here is that you couldn't teach it to someone who can learn spells.

If a ley line has no effect on them, then they can not use the effect that says you can tap it for PPE. Period.

You are confused about what the subject and object of a sentence means.

If I have no effect on Thoth, that does not mean Thoth has no effect on me.

Taking PPE from a ley line is not the ley line affecting you. You are affecting the ley line by taking something from it.

If I am unaffected by energy weapons, that doesn't mean I can't affect energy weapons by stealing them, damaging them, or turning them off, or redirecting them on others.

Where doesi it talk about the other magic classes in HU not being able to draw on PPE from other people?

"the following effects" .. "lines have no affect" not sure we can draw any conclusions from that babble.

Palladium often deviates from an original stated premise in the course of describing things. For example, number 4 "Periods of increased energy" also talks about the chance of random rifts opening, which is clearly not talking about things specific to a mage, as that is an influence on the world in general. This disproves the idea that this list of criteria is solely about effects.

I am not assuming it grants spell-casting ability: it is granting a power that is identical to a spell in every respect, which would mean it costs PPE.

[Nightmask]

I would like to consult this Dream Time Lore you're talking about, what page is it on?

Page 297 does talk about Sense Evil amongst other psionics as abilities that some animals have. It doesn't specify no ISP cost here but I think it might have in other books which talk about animal psionics.

The limitation is not unlisted, by saying it works like the spell you are saying it works with the same limitations as a spell, even it is a power that duplicates the spell. About the only difference in function I can see here is that you couldn't teach it to someone who can learn spells.

Working like a spell does not mean it actually is a spell and operates in all ways as a spell including using PPE. If it cast fireballs like the spell it wouldn't mean that you're actually casting the fireball spell and need PPE to function, it just means that things like range and damage are like the spell.

If a ley line has no effect on them, then they can not use the effect that says you can tap it for PPE. Period.

You are confused about what the subject and object of a sentence means.

If I have no effect on Thoth, that does not mean Thoth has no effect on me.

Taking PPE from a ley line is not the ley line affecting you. You are affecting the ley line by taking something from it.

If I am unaffected by energy weapons, that doesn't mean I can't affect energy weapons by stealing them, damaging them, or turning them off, or redirecting them on others.

Where doesi it talk about the other magic classes in HU not being able to draw on PPE from other people?

"the following effects" .. "lines have no affect" not sure we can draw any conclusions from that babble.

Palladium often deviates from an original stated premise in the course of describing things. For example, number 4 "Periods of increased energy" also talks about the chance of random rifts opening, which is clearly not talking about things specific to a mage, as that is an influence on the world in general. This disproves the idea that this list of criteria is solely about effects.

I am not assuming it grants spell-casting ability: it is granting a power that is identical to a spell in every respect, which would mean it costs PPE.

Given you need to be a spellcaster to make use of drawing PPE from ley lines you can't as you've started insisting that the non-spellcasting enchanted item person somehow can use one anyway. But seriously you're REALLY reading things into the material that's not there and it's baffling how you're making those leaps of illogic. You're trying to claim that the abilities are actually spells that require PPE to be cast but aren't actually spells that are being cast, which are mutually exclusive things. You're ignoring that as a granted power they AREN'T spells but a POWER and powers don't use PPE to function, which is why while the power works like the spell since it's not actually a spell that's being cast it requires no PPE to function. I don't know how long you've been gaming but you should have learned a long time ago that in a case like this where you've dialogue like 'functions like this spell here' that it doesn't mean that you act as if it's actually a spell being cast and requiring PPE to function but that the parameters and features of the power are the same as the spell. So for example if a power says 'identical to the Fly spell' then it means things like flight speed, max height, bonuses in flight, ect. NOT that it's a spell and you need to expend PPE for it anytime you use it and that it only has a duration as long as the spell.

[Sir_Spirit]

I would like to consult this Dream Time Lore you're talking about, what page is it on?

I would like to consult the page that says "identical to/same as" means actually you now cast that spell despite us not just saying "you can cast that spell" also you get the mystic study abilities despite that being nowhere written.

Hmm?


Perhaps you could find that first?

[Axelmania]

Working like a spell does not mean it actually is a spell

Why are you bolding this term? It doesn't appear in the book in relation to what we are discussing.

"Identical to" and "same as" are much more assertive than "working like".

If it cast fireballs like the spell it wouldn't mean that you're actually casting the fireball spell and need PPE to function, it just means that things like range and damage are like the spell.

Actually it would mean it needs PPE to function, unless you had a PPE-free version of the spell you wanted to base it on instead, which could be done from first-edition Palladium RPG or HU. Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition uses PPE though, so we can safely assume it is referring to the spell as printed there.

The fire/lightning attacks from the Magic Weapons don't specify acting same-as/identical-to the spells though (and they don't, as we see in their damage) so it's a moot comparison.

Given you need to be a spellcaster to make use of drawing PPE from ley lines you can't as you've started insisting that the non-spellcasting enchanted item person somehow can use one anyway.

Magic Weapon and Enchanted Item users can cast spells so they can be considered spellcasters.

But seriously you're REALLY reading things into the material that's not there and it's baffling how you're making those leaps of illogic. You're trying to claim that the abilities are actually spells that require PPE to be cast but aren't actually spells that are being cast, which are mutually exclusive things.

No, I'm saying they're powers which are identical to (the same as) spells, which would mean matching in every respect, including PPE cost and activation time.

You're ignoring that as a granted power they AREN'T spells but a POWER and powers don't use PPE to function

I have never ignored that they are powers, I am following the text that says they are identical/same, which would mean using PPE unless otherwise indicated.

If you can find some text elsewhere saying that spells from magic items/weapons don't use PPE, that could resolve this. There are other examples of things which do need it though.

Library of Bletherad page 94's Phiscode uses PPE to cast it's built-in spells, for example. The difference is that this rune weapon has a PPE pool to rely on, whereas Magic Weapons in HU do not, so they need to rely on some other source, logically the user.

while the power works like the spell since it's not actually a spell that's being cast it requires no PPE to function.

It doesn't work "like the spell" it works "identical to" or "same as" the spell.

Spells aren't the only things which can use PPE. For example, Magic Items use PPE to fuel super abilities. So, not being a spell doesn't automatically remove PPE costs.

I don't know how long you've been gaming but you should have learned a long time ago that in a case like this where you've dialogue like 'functions like this spell here' that it doesn't mean that you act as if it's actually a spell being cast and requiring PPE to function but that the parameters and features of the power are the same as the spell.

There is no dialogue like "functions like this spell" here.

There is "identical to" and "same as".

If it actually was "like" (aka "similar") then there would be more flexibility here for your argument to hold weight.

So for example if a power says 'identical to the Fly spell' then it means things like flight speed, max height, bonuses in flight, ect. NOT that it's a spell and you need to expend PPE for it anytime you use it and that it only has a duration as long as the spell.

It would not be a spell, but in working identical to the spell it would mean you would have to spend PPE.

I would like to consult the page that says "identical to/same as" means actually you now cast that spell despite us not just saying "you can cast that spell" also you get the mystic study abilities despite that being nowhere written. Hmm? Perhaps you could find that first?

"identical to the Wizard spell Invisibility: Superior" is ability 6 on page 147 left column for Order and 148 right column for Chaos
"speak any language at will, same as the spell" is ability 14 on page 147 right column for Order and 149 left column for Chaos
"Words of Truth: same as the Wizard spell" is ability 15 on page 147 right column for Order
"Cloud of Smoke: Same as the spell" is ability 15 on page 148 left column for Chaos

I'm not sure what else you're asking, dictionaries do a good job of explaining what words like "identical" and "same" mean. I believe they are synonyms to each other, but not to words like similar/alike which only mean things share some traits in common rather than all traits in common.

None of these are spells, they are powers/abilities which work the same as spells.

[Sir_Spirit]

I would like to consult the page that says "identical to/same as" means actually you now cast that spell despite us not just saying "you can cast that spell" also you get the mystic study abilities despite that being nowhere written. Hmm? Perhaps you could find that first?

I'm not sure what else you're asking,

Obviously, you haven't answered my question, if it works identical to a spell, then it's not the spell, as that would be "you can cast the spell"...

[Nightmask]

Working like a spell does not mean it actually is a spell

Why are you bolding this term? It doesn't appear in the book in relation to what we are discussing.

"Identical to" and "same as" are much more assertive than "working like".

Ooookay, so you're saying you don't understand the purpose behind bolding something, which is to provide emphasis to a particular point.

If it cast fireballs like the spell it wouldn't mean that you're actually casting the fireball spell and need PPE to function, it just means that things like range and damage are like the spell.

Actually it would mean it needs PPE to function, unless you had a PPE-free version of the spell you wanted to base it on instead, which could be done from first-edition Palladium RPG or HU. Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition uses PPE though, so we can safely assume it is referring to the spell as printed there.

The fire/lightning attacks from the Magic Weapons don't specify acting same-as/identical-to the spells though (and they don't, as we see in their damage) so it's a moot comparison.

No. Seriously, no. It does NOT mean it needs PPE to function because it is NOT a spell and neither the magic weapon NOR the wielder are casting it they're activating it which does not require PPE since it's NOT a spell.

Given you need to be a spellcaster to make use of drawing PPE from ley lines you can't as you've started insisting that the non-spellcasting enchanted item person somehow can use one anyway.

Magic Weapon and Enchanted Item users can cast spells so they can be considered spellcasters.

Again, no. Just no. Just because they have the potential to do so does not make them actually spellcasters, and neither the enchanted weapon/item nor the wielder are considered spellcasters. You have to actually BE a spellcaster to qualify as one.

But seriously you're REALLY reading things into the material that's not there and it's baffling how you're making those leaps of illogic. You're trying to claim that the abilities are actually spells that require PPE to be cast but aren't actually spells that are being cast, which are mutually exclusive things.

No, I'm saying they're powers which are identical to (the same as) spells, which would mean matching in every respect, including PPE cost and activation time.

No, that's not what that means and repeatedly saying that is not ever going to make it right. That simply is not an acceptable/valid interpretation of that.

You're ignoring that as a granted power they AREN'T spells but a POWER and powers don't use PPE to function

I have never ignored that they are powers, I am following the text that says they are identical/same, which would mean using PPE unless otherwise indicated.

If you can find some text elsewhere saying that spells from magic items/weapons don't use PPE, that could resolve this. There are other examples of things which do need it though.

Library of Bletherad page 94's Phiscode uses PPE to cast it's built-in spells, for example. The difference is that this rune weapon has a PPE pool to rely on, whereas Magic Weapons in HU do not, so they need to rely on some other source, logically the user.

Every time you say they require PPE and are spells you're ignoring that they're powers which require no PPE, and no you are not arriving at a logical conclusion at any point here. For one you're using a magic item that explicitly casts spells and uses PPE which makes it an EXCEPTION to the rule, which would mean using actual logic that magic items do not in actual fact use PPE because they clearly do NOT have any such costs associated with them. Seriously, the exception you point out explicitly proves your entire argument to be wrong by demonstrating by them going out of the way to list a PPE use for that item that the others DON'T use PPE. You've actually provided evidence that actually undercuts your position.

while the power works like the spell since it's not actually a spell that's being cast it requires no PPE to function.

It doesn't work "like the spell" it works "identical to" or "same as" the spell.

Spells aren't the only things which can use PPE. For example, Magic Items use PPE to fuel super abilities. So, not being a spell doesn't automatically remove PPE costs.

In your house rules magic items use PPE to fuel super-abilities, in the actual book no they do not, and well of COURSE not being a spell removes the PPE cost since IT'S NOT A SPELL.

I don't know how long you've been gaming but you should have learned a long time ago that in a case like this where you've dialogue like 'functions like this spell here' that it doesn't mean that you act as if it's actually a spell being cast and requiring PPE to function but that the parameters and features of the power are the same as the spell.

There is no dialogue like "functions like this spell" here.

There is "identical to" and "same as".

If it actually was "like" (aka "similar") then there would be more flexibility here for your argument to hold weight.

My argument has all the weight there is, it's yours that has no weight to it. But hey if you're totally unwilling to accept that you're wrong and keep insisting on something that's totally contrary to the actual facts I'll certainly stop wasting my time trying to find some way to get you to see the falseness of your position since you're too invested in it to accept that it's wrong.

So for example if a power says 'identical to the Fly spell' then it means things like flight speed, max height, bonuses in flight, ect. NOT that it's a spell and you need to expend PPE for it anytime you use it and that it only has a duration as long as the spell.

It would not be a spell, but in working identical to the spell it would mean you would have to spend PPE.

No that's NOT what it would mean, ever. Only spells use PPE, it's not a spell therefor it does not use PPE. Period.

[eliakon]

Let me make this more clear....

If the claim is that all features of the spell are copied down to PPE....then all features are copied. Which makes it 'you are now casting a spell'
If any part of that is not duplicated, any part what so ever, then we have already diverged from the claim that it is truly identical to the spell in question.

So the question becomes. Are we claiming that the weapon grants spell casting, or not?
Because either it has spells that can be cast, or it has a power that is only similar in some respects to the mimicked spell.

One or the other, and that state is the same answer at all times. It is not possible to have 'the best of both worlds' and get to claim its a copy when convenient, and claim it is not a copy when inconvenient.

[Sir_Spirit]

Let me make this more clear....

If the claim is that all features of the spell are copied down to PPE....

No, it isn't.
Nowhere does it say that. And you can't[well haven't, and I am assuming you would have already if you could have, but feel free to disprove me] show where it states that stating a power is "identical to" spell X means "you can now cast spell X" when there is nothing hinting at that.

[Nightmask]

Let me make this more clear....

If the claim is that all features of the spell are copied down to PPE....

No, it isn't.
Nowhere does it say that. And you can't[well haven't, and I am assuming you would have already if you could have, but feel free to disprove me] show where it states that stating a power is "identical to" spell X means "you can now cast spell X" when there is nothing hinting at that.

You might want to reread his post, because it looks like you've confused him with Axelmania who is the one who's claiming that everything about the spell is copied including PPE expenditure, because the entirety of eliaon's post is a refutation of said claims by pointing out how wrong they are.

[Axelmania]

Obviously, you haven't answered my question, if it works identical to a spell, then it's not the spell, as that would be "you can cast the spell"...

A power identical to a spell would only be different in name alone, and by the nature of it not being learnable by a "spell" learner since it is a power.

you're saying you don't understand the purpose behind bolding something, which is to provide emphasis to a particular point.

Rephrasing: why are you using the bolded term when the term isn't use in the text? By bolding it, you have singled it out and shown you're paying attention to the term, but didn't bother to verify it was there to begin with?

It does NOT mean it needs PPE to function because it is NOT a spell

Spells are not the only things that use PPE, powers can use PPE (see Magic Items, paying PPE to active a super ability) so a power that works identically to a spell would be activated with a PPE cost like the spell unless indicated otherwise.

neither the magic weapon NOR the wielder are casting it they're activating it which does not require PPE since it's NOT a spell.

Activating powers can also cost PPE, that it's semantically activated rather than cast does not matter.

Just because they have the potential to do so does not make them actually spellcasters, and neither the enchanted weapon/item nor the wielder are considered spellcasters. You have to actually BE a spellcaster to qualify as one.

I said "can" be a spellcaster, and if you gain the ability to cast spells whether it's via Weapon (67-00)/Object (34-00)/Bestowed (51-00) that does make you a spellcaster.

You're not a "learned" spellcaster like the Mystic Study, more like you have fixed abilities like a Mystic who doesn't level up.

Now obviously not everyone who gets a powers-identical-to-spell power from their weapon will be a spellcaster from the abilities table (that's roughly 1/3). That means if adults they won't have much PPE to work with. If they're teens, they'll still have a useful enough amount.

Now, and this is getting a bit technical though: you don't need to be a "spell" caster to draw PPE from people or ley lines. You merely need to be a "practitioner of magic". This is the term 316 uses. Practitioners of magic do not necessarily cast spells, examlpes would include only those who use rituals, summoners, diabolists, etc.

I would posit to you that while someone who only has a magic "power" they use from their weapon, while they are not a 'spell' caster, ARE a magic PRACTITIONER because they are still practicing the use of magic, through a power rather than a spell, just as a Diabolist practises magic through Wards instead of a spell. This makes them a mage, if not a spellcaster.

No, that's not what that means and repeatedly saying that is not ever going to make it right. That simply is not an acceptable/valid interpretation of that.

Is "that" referring to the terms identical/same? If you think you know what these terms mean better than I do, please present the definition you hold as an authority here.

Every time you say they require PPE and are spells you're ignoring that they're powers which require no PPE

Being a power does not mean something cannot require PPE. I have not said they are spells: they are powers that require PPE because they are identical to spells (which require PPE)

you're using a magic item that explicitly casts spells and uses PPE which makes it an EXCEPTION to the rule, which would mean using actual logic that magic items do not in actual fact use PPE because they clearly do NOT have any such costs associated with them.

Items which cast spells and do not use PPE are exceptions to the rule: the ability to create magical effects without requiring PPE is a special ability.

In your house rules magic items use PPE to fuel super-abilities, in the actual book no they do not, and well of COURSE not being a spell removes the PPE cost since IT'S NOT A SPELL.

Reread HU2 page 149, the Enchanted Object spends 15 PPE to active a super ability for 24 hours. This proves that "powers" can have PPE costs.

This is only an example though, it is not required, because there is no such rule as "powers can't have point costs" or whatever you think exists.

Only spells use PPE, it's not a spell therefor it does not use PPE. Period.

If you think this is a rule then you're not presently considering Between the Supernatural/Nightbane/Palladium Fantasy/Rifts where there's all kinds of non-spells which use PPE as a fuel source.

Even looking solely at HU2 we clearly know otherwise. As pointed out above, Enchanted Objects: PPE to activate a super ability. Also within Mystic Study: rituals are not spells, they are another way of casting magic outside of 'spell' casting.

[eliakon]

Obviously, you haven't answered my question, if it works identical to a spell, then it's not the spell, as that would be "you can cast the spell"...

A power identical to a spell would only be different in name alone, and by the nature of it not being learnable by a "spell" learner since it is a power.

you're saying you don't understand the purpose behind bolding something, which is to provide emphasis to a particular point.

Rephrasing: why are you using the bolded term when the term isn't use in the text? By bolding it, you have singled it out and shown you're paying attention to the term, but didn't bother to verify it was there to begin with?

It does NOT mean it needs PPE to function because it is NOT a spell

Spells are not the only things that use PPE, powers can use PPE (see Magic Items, paying PPE to active a super ability) so a power that works identically to a spell would be activated with a PPE cost like the spell unless indicated otherwise.

So, to be perfectly clear hear.
You are claiming that this is identical in all respects. Except for the respects that it is not identical in.
Because it sounds like you are claiming that it copies all features you want it to copy and does not copy any feature you do not want it to copy.
How can 'identical to' mean it needs PPE, but not mean that it takes magic words, or casting time, or any of the other conditionals?
Because your argument that "since it is a power it can be different" undercuts the premise. If you are saying that being a power changes any one part of the ability, what is your support for claiming that you get to pick and choose which parts are changed?

[eliakon]

Only spells use PPE, it's not a spell therefor it does not use PPE. Period.

If you think this is a rule then you're not presently considering Between the Supernatural/Nightbane/Palladium Fantasy/Rifts where there's all kinds of non-spells which use PPE as a fuel source.

Even looking solely at HU2 we clearly know otherwise. As pointed out above, Enchanted Objects: PPE to activate a super ability. Also within Mystic Study: rituals are not spells, they are another way of casting magic outside of 'spell' casting.

Ummm rituals are spells. You do realize that yes?
A "spell" casting of Invisibility and a "ritual" casting of Invisibility is still casting the same spell.
It isn't using two separate totally unrelated magic's.

And to be fair, there are a tiny handful of non caster abilities (spells/wards/circles/line drawings/etc) that use PPE but are not magic....and every single one of them explicitly mentions that they do, because it is so rare as to require explicit statements of this fact.

Basically, its a hold over from the HU1r where there wasn't PPE at all anyway. So if something had a spell like power at will.....it was fully understood to truly be at will. Since there is no text anywhere suggesting that they have suddenly added a massive nerf to these abilities and made them unusable except by the most lucky of individual.....Individuals who will need a new, hither to unheard of change to the magic rules for ley-lines as well......
Simplicity suggests that the power operates the way it has for decades with no changes

[Axelmania]

You are claiming that this is identical in all respects. Except for the respects that it is not identical in.

Book says identical, identical does mean in all respect, unless it's phrased like "identical in this respect" to reduce the impact of the word.

You could view it as a power which is also a spell, I don't see why it couldn't be both.

Because it sounds like you are claiming that it copies all features you want it to copy and does not copy any feature you do not want it to copy.
How can 'identical to' mean it needs PPE, but not mean that it takes magic words, or casting time, or any of the other conditionals?

A good point: it may also require magic words and casting time. I'm not sure if that's as strict a rule as in PF though. HU2 page 319 says "usually invocations taking the form of a chant or mantra" so 'usually' gives flexibility for other requirements.

Of course, there's also to consider: who is actually doing the casting?

After all we have stuff like "Turns itself and its wielder" which can make it sound like the word-saying and casting-time are done by the weapon rather than the wielder.

rituals are spells. You do realize that yes?
A "spell" casting of Invisibility and a "ritual" casting of Invisibility is still casting the same spell.
It isn't using two separate totally unrelated magic's.

That tends to vary based on where you look. The encompassing label is often 'invocation'.

Page 319 under Ceremonial/Ritual Magic's "Note" says for example "Knowing the spell version of an invocation does not mean the mage also knows the ritual" for example, clearly showing them as different things. "Spell" strength not applying to rituals is also a glaring issue. Under "Canceling Magic" it talks about 'interrupting a spell caster' and then in a separate paragraph distinguishes Ritual/Ceremonial differently.

And to be fair, there are a tiny handful of non caster abilities (spells/wards/circles/line drawings/etc) that use PPE but are not magic....and every single one of them explicitly mentions that they do, because it is so rare as to require explicit statements of this fact.

The fact remains that the argument "it's not a spell so it doesn't need PPE" is a flawed one.

Come to think of it: being a power doesn't inherently mean something is not also a spell, I'm surprised I let that go on unconfronted for so long.

Basically, its a hold over from the HU1r where there wasn't PPE at all anyway. So if something had a spell like power at will.....it was fully understood to truly be at will. Since there is no text anywhere suggesting that they have suddenly added a massive nerf to these abilities and made them unusable except by the most lucky of individual.....Individuals who will need a new, hither to unheard of change to the magic rules for ley-lines as well......
Simplicity suggests that the power operates the way it has for decades with no changes

Not every change that affects power has a note to go with it. The PPE system from 'spells per day' allows a big boost in casting many low-level spells and a big nerf in casting many high-level ones, but that isn't elaborated on, so why should this be?

I don't see where you get this "except by the most lucky" thing. High PPE would give incentive for weapons with spell-casting powers to seek out teenage wielders...

Or for adult wielders of these weapons to LEND it to teenagers, who could then use their PPE to fuel the power-spell.

[RockJock]

Axelmania,

Based on your reading magic potions only work if the character pumps PPE into them.
"Invisibility: Same as spell magic and costs 800 gold." from page 253 of Fantasy. This means only a spell caster could use a potion due to the enough PPE, and an ability to tap it being a limiting factor for most other characters. In your version scrolls are really the only viable option for a non-spellcaster. Not potions, enchanted weapons, armor, or rings. Not even most Rune weapons. Sorry, but I just can't buy that as a viable interpretation.

I know HU isn't PF, but the magic is pretty close.

If that is how you want to read it go for it. It won't work on any table I've ever played at.

[SittingBull]

So if your enchanted item is casting these spells through you (because a weapon couldn't cast a spell), are you ready and prepared to have 'casting interrupted' be heard a lot? No dodging, no parrying, take a hit, get interrupted.

[Axelmania]

Axelmania,
Based on your reading magic potions only work if the character pumps PPE into them.
"Invisibility: Same as spell magic and costs 800 gold." from page 253 of Fantasy. This means only a spell caster could use a potion due to the enough PPE, and an ability to tap it being a limiting factor for most other characters.

Considering these are limited-use items, this can easily be explained by the Alchemist who created the potion having spent the PPE ahead of time, much like you would when creating a talisman or scroll to store a spell.

So if your enchanted item is casting these spells through you (because a weapon couldn't cast a spell), are you ready and prepared to have 'casting interrupted' be heard a lot? No dodging, no parrying, take a hit, get interrupted.

Sure, what's the problem with this.

Look at the spell-powers which actually have the same-identical text, they're not exactly "I'm doing this in the middle of combat" stuff for the most part.

Tongues and Words of Truth are generally stuff you'll be preparing out of combat for RP situations.

Cloud of Smoke and Invisibility have some mid-combat applications for quick escapes, but I don't see any problem with needing prep time for using them and having them be interrupt-able.

[RockJock]

And you don't see PPE being put into an enchanted weapon? Anything from a PF sword firing a fireball three times a day to Rune Weapon has PPE put into it. Either as the regenerating pool labeled as PPE, or as a times per day fixed amount.

Your interpretation nerfs the class, and makes no sense to me. Your assumption is based on your reading of cut and pasted text from spells. If you want to play it that way go for it, but it wouldn't work with any game I've ever played, including those on Palladium run tables.

[Axelmania]

Reading the rules-as-written is not a nerf. Ignoring the text and giving it undescribed abilities (not requiring PPE to use a spell or thing which works like a spell) would be boosting the class.

Yes it is based on reading cut and pasted text from spells: because that is exactly what Magic Weapons tells us to do, identicality/sameness.

Why do you think the weapons were given a PPE pool when ported from 1st edition to Rifts Conversion Book?

Seems like it was something which got overlooked when upgrading the category to HU2.

[SittingBull]

Axel, many of this people have talked to the people who have written the rules or talked to these game people. These same people are also sticklers for knowing what they talk about.

Yes, if you don't like it you can change it for your games, but the way you intend to have it work was not the way the game designers intended, that's all.

Do not think this is about side, or 'that's silly', or 'my way's better'.

I hope this helps a little. I know that debates on here can get heated.

[Nightmask]

Reading the rules-as-written is not a nerf. Ignoring the text and giving it undescribed abilities (not requiring PPE to use a spell or thing which works like a spell) would be boosting the class.

Yes it is based on reading cut and pasted text from spells: because that is exactly what Magic Weapons tells us to do, identicality/sameness.

Why do you think the weapons were given a PPE pool when ported from 1st edition to Rifts Conversion Book?

Seems like it was something which got overlooked when upgrading the category to HU2.

Except you aren't reading the rules as written, nor do the rules for Magic Weapons tell you that the abilities are spells or that they require PPE to function because they don't. That's something you're inserting based on your own flawed reading of things.

It's also irrelevant if in some other book from some other setting gave magic weapons a separate PPE pool because that doesn't have any bearing on THIS setting. So no it was not something that was overlooked it was something that never applied to Heroes Unlimited in the first place. Magic weapons and the special abilities they have don't use PPE, period.

[SittingBull]

There goes my attempts at niceties here.

[RockJock]

Not being able to use weapon abilities like Tongues, or Invisibility because a character is not a spell caster, thus does not have the required PPE would be a nerf in my book.

We are not going to convince each other, so enjoy your gaming.

[NMI]

Let's agree to disagree and move on.

[Axelmania]

many of this people have talked to the people who have written the rules or talked to these game people. These same people are also sticklers for knowing what they talk about.

Knowing what you're talking about would lead to familiarity allowing one to back one's argument from the text.

Yes, if you don't like it you can change it for your games, but the way you intend to have it work was not the way the game designers intended, that's all.

Intentions can be communicated through text in the books, that's where I look for it. If you have some other non-print medium by which we discern intent such as audio statements I will listen to them.

Except you aren't reading the rules as written, nor do the rules for Magic Weapons tell you that the abilities are spells or that they require PPE to function because they don't.

They don't because... why, you said so?

If these spell-abilities can be used without spending PPE on them, that would mean they are different from the spells. That would make them NOT the "same as" or "identical to". That interpretation cannot stand since it ignores these precepts.

It's also irrelevant if in some other book from some other setting gave magic weapons a separate PPE pool because that doesn't have any bearing on THIS setting.

True, it's just a nice house-rule if GMs/Players are sad they don't have enough PPE to fuel the powers. You are free to use the 2D6 for adults / 6D6 for teens if you consider that adequate, per the RAW in HU2.

Magic weapons and the special abilities they have don't use PPE, period.

Unsupported by text, in conflict with text which states they work the same a spells, spells work by converting PPE into effects.

Not being able to use weapon abilities like Tongues, or Invisibility because a character is not a spell caster, thus does not have the required PPE would be a nerf in my book.

Not having initial access to the PPE required to use something you start out with is not a nerf.

Mystic Study can begin with 10th level spells, such as summoning a Shadow Beast for 140 PPE, but can roll PPE as low as 45. Is it a 'nerf' to allow them to start with this spell and too little PPE to cast it?

Even if you are playing an adult Magic Weapon wielder with a paltry 2D6 PPE instead of a teen with 6D6+PE (a logical choice for a magic weapon with same-as-spell powers) not being able to fuel the power with your own PPE doesn't mean it can't be used.

If you willingly give your weapon to someone else, they too can draw upon the 6 powers and use them while the character relies on the other abilities give to them which they rolled previously.

So if you're an adult with a Magic Weapon that allows Tongues or Invisibility Superior, you can lend it to your teen sidekick who has more PPE than you and let them use it instead.

That's potentially a lot more useful anyway, and something that would happen RP-wise. As a powerful champion, superior invisibility wouldn't be too useful if you were in the middle of fighting a monster since it would de-activate with every attack you made, but it would be great for protecting an innocent bystander to prevent them from being targeted.

An easy solve for PPE dilemmas is to give Weapons the same PPE pool which Objects have, since grammatically all weapons are objects but not all objects are weapons.

[Nightmask]

Except you aren't reading the rules as written, nor do the rules for Magic Weapons tell you that the abilities are spells or that they require PPE to function because they don't.

They don't because... why, you said so?

If these spell-abilities can be used without spending PPE on them, that would mean they are different from the spells. That would make them NOT the "same as" or "identical to". That interpretation cannot stand since it ignores these precepts.

No, they don't require PPE because the BOOK says so and no amount of your refusing to accept that they don't will change that.

It's also irrelevant if in some other book from some other setting gave magic weapons a separate PPE pool because that doesn't have any bearing on THIS setting.

True, it's just a nice house-rule if GMs/Players are sad they don't have enough PPE to fuel the powers. You are free to use the 2D6 for adults / 6D6 for teens if you consider that adequate, per the RAW in HU2.

No, it's YOUR house rule that the special abilities of the weapons require PPE, the CANON is that they do not.

Magic weapons and the special abilities they have don't use PPE, period.

Unsupported by text, in conflict with text which states they work the same a spells, spells work by converting PPE into effects.

Look, seriously, you're wrong. Totally and utterly wrong. The text does NOT support that position, in fact that position completely contradicts the text. No matter how much you want to render the abilities worthless and unavailable to anyone using an enchanted weapon in your game (because that's what your HOUSE RULE does, in direct contradiction to the text that makes it clear they can be used at will) and try and go 'sorry guys but that's what the books say' that's not in the books at all.

[eliakon]

Didn't NMI ask that this be dropped more than two weeks ago?

[NMI]

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