Sniper Teams.

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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by Mack »

Alrik Vas wrote:That's all fine, but how much do you need to aim up? I could be taking it all wrong, but it sounds like you're saying you have to aim up a great deal, even with the speed it's traveling at. And I could be taking it all wrong, but it sounds like you're saying the speed will decrease to such an extent it putters out almost immediately.

If you can explain exactly how much, it would help a great deal. I realize velocity decreases because of atmospheric conditions like wind, temperature and the simple fact that air exists at all, but if something leaves the barrel going 3300 meters per second, how slow is it going when it hits 3300 meters? When it hits 4000 meters? If it's fired from a height of 11ft, when does it hit the ground because of drop?

If I understood that (assuming all conditions are perfect) and could see it, grasp it, then I doubt I'd have anything else to say on the matter and be a bit more educated as a result.


I'll attempt to step in here, since Natasha won't be back until Monday. I'm not going to address the loss in velocity due to drag simply because that requires too many other variables, most notably the drag coefficient of the bullet based on it's aerodynamics. (If you wish to toy around with some of that, there's some online ballistics calcuators.

Fired from 11 feet, the projectile would hit the ground in 0.82 seconds. With a velocity of 3300 meters per second, it would travel 2706 meters (8878 feet, or 1.68 miles) before hitting the ground. (By the way, 3300 meters per second is about Mach 10, so this example is twice the speed of a Boomgun round.)
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

I realize it is, but I'm working with what I accept as a boomgun, not the book stats. You can forget "boomgun" and insert "other."
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by eliakon »

Mack wrote:
Alrik Vas wrote:That's all fine, but how much do you need to aim up? I could be taking it all wrong, but it sounds like you're saying you have to aim up a great deal, even with the speed it's traveling at. And I could be taking it all wrong, but it sounds like you're saying the speed will decrease to such an extent it putters out almost immediately.

If you can explain exactly how much, it would help a great deal. I realize velocity decreases because of atmospheric conditions like wind, temperature and the simple fact that air exists at all, but if something leaves the barrel going 3300 meters per second, how slow is it going when it hits 3300 meters? When it hits 4000 meters? If it's fired from a height of 11ft, when does it hit the ground because of drop?

If I understood that (assuming all conditions are perfect) and could see it, grasp it, then I doubt I'd have anything else to say on the matter and be a bit more educated as a result.


I'll attempt to step in here, since Natasha won't be back until Monday. I'm not going to address the loss in velocity due to drag simply because that requires too many other variables, most notably the drag coefficient of the bullet based on it's aerodynamics. (If you wish to toy around with some of that, there's some online ballistics calcuators.

Fired from 11 feet, the projectile would hit the ground in 0.82 seconds. With a velocity of 3300 meters per second, it would travel 2706 meters (8878 feet, or 1.68 miles) before hitting the ground. (By the way, 3300 meters per second is about Mach 10, so this example is twice the speed of a Boomgun round.)

So firing straight out with almost no raise a boomgun can hit something ~.8 miles away?
If they arc the shot a bit then they would get that 2mile range yes?
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

give or take, it would seem. The effective range is 11000ft...so the range you could get out of it with skill, math and a little luck is probably close to 3. That's just me babblin' though.
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by eliakon »

Alrik Vas wrote:give or take, it would seem. The effective range is 11000ft...so the range you could get out of it with skill, math and a little luck is probably close to 3. That's just me babblin' though.

well the official 30% would give us 14,300'. So yah, I will say that 2.7 miles is 'close to 3' (especially if your the one being shot from what you thought was a safe distance)
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by Mack »

If we toss in some real world aerodynamics (which I excluded in the above math) where the projectile decelerates as it flies, then you get an arc like this.

The projectile falls at a constant rate, regardless of it's horizontal speed. As it slows horizontally, you get the arc in that link.
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by Natasha »

Well it looks like the questions have been answered. I'll take it a step further for those who are open to the idea that these guns will perform differently on other planets and moons (that is, in other gravity fields). If you are curious about how to go about that, read on. Ask any question at all if you want to work out the differences of guns on Earth and some other place such as the Moon, but then get stuck or even can't get started. English isn't my first language and I'm not a teacher so if there's a problem it's almost certainly with my assumptions and explanations.

It's lengthy and with apparently with limited interest; so I'll just put it in a spoiler tag....

Spoiler:
Consider some abstract cases of pure mathematics. Begin with definitions. Velocity is the rate of change of position and acceleration is the rate of change of velocity. So velocity is meters per second and acceleration is velocity per second (or meters per second per second). Suppose constant acceleration. Using calculus you can derive some equations to describe one-dimensional motion:
  • v = v_i + at
  • x = x_i + v_i t + 1/2 at^2
The first equation gives you the object's velocity at any time. The second gives you its position. The _i means some initial condition. Here the object can only go back and forth on a single axis graph, and we try to set up so that x_i is equal to zero (the origin) to make things even simpler.

Note that according to Newton's laws of motion only forces create accelerations. This means the net external forces on the object result in only the acceleration in the kinematic equations of motion just listed. It will either speed up or slow down the object.

Suppose that the direction of an object launched from some fixed surface is said to be up and up is said to be positive; which means down is negative. Suppose that acceleration is -10 meters per second per second and that initial velocity is 3300 meters per second. The object is going to slow to a complete stop at some peak height during some interval of time, and then speed up in the reverse direction and return to the surface in the very same interval of time. Clearly where v = 0 meters per second is a special position. In fact, it's precisely half of the object's motion under consideration. Indeed, this is the point of symmetry for the motion. The rate of acceleration and the time interval for each half of the motion are precisely the same except the direction has flipped. If an object takes 2 seconds to reach the peak, it will take 2 seconds to fall back down.

This is how bullet drop is determined. Say that the source of acceleration is that of a gravity field. A bullet fired from a height of 11 feet or dropped from 11 feet will strike the ground at precisely the same time according to the equations. This has been experimentally verified. It's not all that difficult to test by oneself with some marbles and a table.

Now forces exert themselves in just one direction. Newton's third law tells us that all real forces come in pairs; each force is the same size but point in opposite directions. This is why there is no such things as centrifugal forces; it has no force pair. What is really happening when you go in circles is that Newton's first law is being proven. Anyways, the force of gravity, therefore, is in just one direction. On planets and moons that's down; it's attracting objects to the centre of the body. The force pair means the object is attracting the body towards its centre with the same size force, just in the opposite direction.

Sticking with our bullet, suppose that it's fired horizontally. This is gives the bullet's motion a second dimension. On a Cartesian graph we would like for the initial x and initial y values to be zero (the graph's origin) for simplicity; that's not always possible.

We can analyse its vertical motion; in fact, we have already said how long it will take to strike the ground. There are no forces exerting horizontally upon the bullet in this scenario because gravity is only vertical. Therefore, for this component of the bullet's motion, acceleration is zero. Newton's first law tells us that the bullet will continue in this way until some net external forces changes its motion (such as slamming into a target or intersecting with the ground). The point is that we use the same equations. They become significantly simplified when a = 0.

But what happens when the bullet is fired at some angle above the horizontal? We can still treat this two-dimensional motion as two one-dimensional analyses: one for the vertical and one for the horizontal. Clearly we must know the initial/muzzle velocity and the angle. In order to separate the two dimensions, we make use of right triangles. If we use the initial velocity as the hypotenuse, then we may multiply initial velocity by the cosine of the launch angle to know the horizontal velocity and we may multiply the initial velocity by the sine of the launch angle to know the vertical velocity. Using zero acceleration for the horizontal dimension we plug in the new initial velocity and solve the equations. We repeat the same for the vertical using the acceleration of gravity. If we need to recombine them, we may use the Theorem of Pythagoras.

In other words. For horizontal motion, use v_i cos(θ) instead of just v_i. For vertical motion, use v_i sin(θ) instead of just v_i. It is helpful to rewrite the equations for each dimension. Note that the angle θ is given in degrees not radians; be sure to set your calculator accordingly if you're using one.

In this way we can describe the most important elements of a trajectory for a given gravity field.

Whether through experimentation or familiarity with maths, some angles have noteworthy properties. At 45 degrees for a given muzzle velocity, the trajectory has the greatest range. At 30 and 60 degrees for a given muzzle velocity, the range of the trajectory is the same but shape is quite different (in fact, this is true of any complimentary angles). One way to see this is to get a calculator (or do it by hand, but calculators are faster -- see the monster at the end of this post for a link) and look at the boundary conditions: 0, 1, 29, 30, 31, 44, 45, 46, 59, 60, 61, 89, and 90 degrees.

How long would it take for our bullet dropped from 11 feet to fall to the surface of the Moon? We want to solve for time. We know its initial velocity (which is 0 m/s) and we know its acceleration (which is 1.667 m/s/s). We know it's initial x is 3.35 meters and its final x (the left side of the position equation) is 0 meters. We can plug all this into the equation, simplify, and solve for t. We may calculate the velocity of the bullet as it lands, too. If we fire the bullet at an angle, we can describe its trajectory in the same way as we did on Earth. In the case of the Moon where there is practically no atmosphere the results are going to be quite accurate. Indeed, an Apollo astronaut dropped a feather and a hammer while walking on the Moon and they fell at the same acceleration and landed at the same time.

One final comment for long range shots: the curvature of the planet or the moon has been completely ignored.

Are there other forces in reality? On Earth and other places where there is an atmosphere, the shape of the trajectory (which is a parabola in the pure case) can be deformed by other forces creating accelerations on the bullet. These forces are impossible to calculate outside of tightly controlled conditions and so their effect is impossible to calculate. But some general remarks should give some idea of what they can do to trajectories. Wind will exert force on the bullet and can come from many directions. Drag force for fast moving objects in atmosphere such as a bullet on Earth has several factors that go into its calculation; although the direction is always opposed to the motion of the bullet. The terms are the drag coefficient (which is close to .5 for spheres and for oddly shaped things it can get as high as 2); the air density which is determined by things like altitude, humidity, and air temperature; the cross-sectional surface area of the object the drag force exerts against; and the object's velocity squared. Friction is another force that will oppose the bullet's motion. It comes from contact with the bullet and atmosphere. In the case of larger objects, this can be a problem. Airplane designers slim down the vehicle to reduce drag but this elongates the vehicle which can increase friction (more surface area, more friction). Well, we can see the general overall effect in Mack's graphic where horizontal velocity compresses as we've added a negative acceleration into the system.

The following website has some useful trajectory calculators with some explanations of what is being calculated. It makes things easier. Trajectories can get quite tedious as there are often several steps to complete before arriving at the final answer. Calculators do the hard work. Although after some practice doing them by hand, they do become easier.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/traj.html
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by eliakon »

Interestingly the Babyboom gun in the Black Market sourcebook comes with a laser sight that adds +1 to strike on aimed shots.
Since the weapon has a range of 5000' and there is no limitation that the sight can not be used at full range....
This establishes that by the book, you can use the sight to make an aimed shot at 5000'
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by Natasha »

Rifts.. where nothing and everything is possible.
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by eliakon »

Natasha wrote:Rifts.. where nothing and everything is possible.

Pretty much.
Good thing its a game, because it doesn't make a very good physics simulator. (of course anything that has as a valid premise "A wizard did it" tends to not make good physics.....)
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by eliakon »

If we need a separate sight
GMG Page 189
x10 scope: Range 2,000-6,000' and can have cross sight hairs (+1 strike on aimed shots)

I would assume that if you get a higher multiple (like a x16 or x20) that you could see even longer.
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by Tor »

*pays closer attention to BM sourcebook due to BBG*

*notices the "Black Market Benefits" mods*

What's to stop people from associating with more than 1 of the 5 factions for more benefits? Like couldn't a changeling do it by assuming different identities so they wouldn't become aware he was two-timing them?
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by FatherMorpheus »

To go back to the original idea of a CS Sniper Team in Rifts Earth with CS equipment. I've been pondering this idea for a while.

Take a group of 6 CS Special Forces Soldiers.
At 1st level Prowl of 40%.
Each with WP Energy Rifle and WP Heavy and Sniper. (In addition to their normal skills.)

As they are Spec Ops, they could easily use whatever weapons they want to use.
I would equip them with JA-12 Laser Rifles (triple-pulse 1D6x10+10MD). JU p76
Add Wilk's Integrated Optics Gun-Site units for a +3 strike on aimed shots. (Merc Ops p104)

Now, two of these Spec Ops individuals would be spotters and security detail. 4 would perform a synchronized strike on a count, led by one of the 4 on a count.

This is a technique used today by riflemen to damage hard targets. If you get enough people shooting at the same spot at the same time you will penetrate armor plate with light weaponry. It just takes everyone aiming at the same exact spot.

That ends up becoming 4D6x10+40 hitting the same spot at the same time. With at least a +4 bonus, odds are these guys wouldn't be 1st level. They also will be from cover and concealment from anywhere from 2000 to 3000 ft range. That is 600 to 1000 yards.

They would also have grenades they could launch from those rifles, just in case they needed some cover while retreating.

If all of them fire at the same time from 1000 yards, most opponents could be shot twice before they even knew what hit them. If concealed correctly, say with Camouflage: Stealth Ghillie Suits they would have another +10% to prowl and blend in. Now they are at a base of 50% at 1st level. Back down to 30% if they are wearing the CA-7 armor, but still from distance most opponents wouldn't even know what hit them. And nothing is saying that all 6 couldn't take aim in groups of 3. That would would be 2 targets taking 3D6x10+30 per salvo.

This way a 6 man sniper squad could eliminate threats well before anyone would come close to discovering them, let alone taking them out.
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by Tor »

Rules for coordinating surprise attacks so that all shooters get that benefit of a first indefensible strike would be pretty cool. One gets the impression that after the 1st the others can't cash in, but until you actually fire a shot they don't know you're there so even if you waited until the 2nd melee it'd still be surprise right?

In fact, unless they had tools to pinpoint your position, couldn't you get multiple surprise attacks?
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by FatherMorpheus »

Tor wrote:Rules for coordinating surprise attacks so that all shooters get that benefit of a first indefensible strike would be pretty cool. One gets the impression that after the 1st the others can't cash in, but until you actually fire a shot they don't know you're there so even if you waited until the 2nd melee it'd still be surprise right?

In fact, unless they had tools to pinpoint your position, couldn't you get multiple surprise attacks?


I don't have my books handy, but aren't there official rules for Surprise somewhere in the book? Maybe I miss read it, but I thought those with surprise all get a free round or free actions or something.
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by say652 »

Ja 11 powered by a Bionic weaponlink. Great range for an energy rifle.
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by Tor »

Surprise attacks win initiative, although I'm a bit unsure if the first attack counts as part of the melee round or if you get a free attack and then begin it.

It also can't be defended against except in weird cases like Juicers.

I'm just not sure when attacks stop surprising. If nobody knows where the shot is coming from and can't see the attacker then you'd think it'd be surprise forever.

If not, would like to know how longyou need to stop attacking before it resets and you can surprise again.
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by FatherMorpheus »

In ambush scenarios I usually allow people to make Detect Ambush and/or Perception rolls to try and notice prior to the attack. There usually are penalties or bonuses added into those rolls. If the ambushers (IE Snipers) are really really hidden, I wouldn't require a successful roll before they figured out where the snipers were located. Though, after the first round I would most likely cancel the surprise effect.

But it would be very dependent on the specific situation.
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Re: Sniper Teams.

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

Tor wrote:Surprise attacks win initiative, although I'm a bit unsure if the first attack counts as part of the melee round or if you get a free attack and then begin it.

It also can't be defended against except in weird cases like Juicers.

I'm just not sure when attacks stop surprising. If nobody knows where the shot is coming from and can't see the attacker then you'd think it'd be surprise forever.

If not, would like to know how longyou need to stop attacking before it resets and you can surprise again.


Detect Ambush and Detect Concealment both are helpful here. Both skills give you knowledge on where and how attackers and equipment may hide. A successful skill check can tell you much about the surrounding area, knowing the weapons used against you helps too. Compiling the facts, it's possible you may not be surprised at all when the shooting starts.

The interpretation is up to your group, but those skills exist to resist the ambush situation.
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Talk from the Edge: Operation Dead Lift, Operation Reload, Operation Human Devil, Operation Handshake, Operation Windfall 1, Operation Windfall 2, Operation Sniper Wolf, Operation Natural 20
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