Full Conversion Borgs vs Power Armor

[GlitterKnight]

Before I start a flame war, allow me to clarify. I'm not asking "which is better?" (well, not necessarily), I'm asking why a military would choose one over the other?

Obviously not all technology bases are equal, so some powers possess more advanced technology in one or the other; the Russian preference for bionics is because their country invested heavily into it during the Golden Age and they've inherited and improved upon that since then. Others have access to highly advanced technology for both, but chose one over the other for ideological reasons, like the Coalition States; they view human enhancement as a pollution of the "pure" human form, and are against transhumanist technologies in general, but have begun to include some cyborg troops into their armies since the preparation for war on Tolkeen. But both full conversion 'borgs and power armor seem to fulfill the same role on the battlefield, that of heavy, armored infantry with the option of making them air-mobile as well with flight systems or jet packs.

Other powers, like the Germans and Japanese, possess advanced capabilities in both fields and field a diverse array of both types of technology. I'm not sure why, however. A power armor requires much of the same resources but allows for a pilot to live a normal life away from the battlefield. A cyborg makes a life altering decision which is nearly always permanent, to become a living engine of war. This is accepted and even lauded in some places, like Russia, as a brave sacrifice for the good of their people, but it is still a terrible burden to bear. In Japan, it is reversible, but the best that most 'borgs can hope for is to be transferred to something like a light machine body or a cyberoid frame. You'll never get your flesh and blood body back. Most 'borgs are likely happy or accepting of their choice, but societally, they may become disruptive. They can't really integrate into normal society with bodies like theirs, as they are walking tanks, even if their armaments are removed.

Personally, I love 'borgs, but I can't see the military reason for it. I'm sure there are cyborg systems that you can't include in a power armor, but is it that those are impossible or just haven't been written in as power armor features? Are 'borgs cheaper in general?

[ShadowLogan]

While the books mention some screening going on for 'borgs. The available candidate pool can start with a much wider selection, since it can include a population with deformities/injuries that would normally preclude them from being a PA pilot, but aren't much of an issue for a 'borg (granted you can fix these to some extent with cybernetics for a PA pilot).

A 'borg force also offers an always ready response force if needed (PA pilots have to suitup, 'bogs can just go). So if response time is a consideration for your force, 'borgs have some advantage over pilots.

'borgs can also recover faster than a PA pilot. The 'borg is likely wearing Cyborg BA giving them an added layer of protection that would be much easier to fix than on a PA. Plus if the 'borg loses or damages a limb, it should be possible to restore the solider to fighting condition much quicker, than a PA pilot who may suffer extreme damage to the same personal limb and has to wait for natural healing.

[rat_bastard]

The two technologies are developed for different reasons and and are value for different reasons. One is a medical technology that has combat applications and the other is a Military technology that has civilian applications. Even if you invested solely in Power armor tech you would still want Cybernetics because you would still have paraplegics and amputees a long with people with genetic or alien diseases. Even if you invested solely in cybernetic tech you would still have people who wanted power armor because they are turned off by the prospect of having metal replace their flesh.

[Killer Cyborg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzgGTTtR0kc

[GlitterKnight]

The two technologies are developed for different reasons and and are value for different reasons. One is a medical technology that has combat applications and the other is a Military technology that has civilian applications. Even if you invested solely in Power armor tech you would still want Cybernetics because you would still have paraplegics and amputees a long with people with genetic or alien diseases. Even if you invested solely in cybernetic tech you would still have people who wanted power armor because they are turned off by the prospect of having metal replace their flesh.

I don't mean that you wouldn't invest in cybernetics at all if you had power armor technology, as obviously they have more applications than just creating super soldiers. I mean, why plow the massive resources that producing either full conversion 'borgs for combat and or building power armor and training pilots would require? This is solely from a standpoint of military planning and budgeting. Which is more cost effective, useful, has less drawbacks, etc.

Even in Rifts Earth, with Mega Damage weapons vaporizing people's limbs off left and right, the need for full body conversion for medical reasons, is going to be pretty rare. Anyone who needs full conversion is probably going to die on the spot from the wound that did it. As for those who are medically unfit for military service volunteering, that I could see, but then they would also need to be screened and conditioned so they don't go cyber-psycho, further shrinking that pool of candidates for conversion. It seems like if you keep the bionics program for soldiers crippled in battle and medically unfit volunteers who are cleared by the psychologists, you'd end up with a lot of money invested in a program that produces only a handful of combat 'borgs a year.

[flatline]

Pilots are dirt cheap to train (for instance, ALL CS grunts are trained to use power armor for some reason). If a particular pilot turns out to be a dud, just give the suit to another pilot and hope for the best.

Borgs require fairly significant investment in a particular soldier. If he turns out to be a dud, it's harder to salvage your investment.

However, borgs are more durable, cheaper to repair, they can be small enough to be useful indoors (read: urban combat), and they can often be disguised to look like normal humans.

On the downside from the perspective of the military, you can't disarm a borg when he comes off duty so he's always a potential liability. The pilot is just a regular human outside his armor. Trying to integrate borgs with regular soldiers will always suffer from this issue.

--flatline

[Slight001]

The most obvious advantage PA has over Bionics is that at the end of the day their is a frail pilot within that suit of PA. Unless the Borg has a 'security' system installed for the event of it going rogue there isn't much that can be done short of removing/transferring the brain to a secondary location body when not actively in use.

[flatline]

I think that a suit of power armor is cheaper than a FCB. Can anyone confirm?

--flatline

[kaid]

Before I start a flame war, allow me to clarify. I'm not asking "which is better?" (well, not necessarily), I'm asking why a military would choose one over the other?

Obviously not all technology bases are equal, so some powers possess more advanced technology in one or the other; the Russian preference for bionics is because their country invested heavily into it during the Golden Age and they've inherited and improved upon that since then. Others have access to highly advanced technology for both, but chose one over the other for ideological reasons, like the Coalition States; they view human enhancement as a pollution of the "pure" human form, and are against transhumanist technologies in general, but have begun to include some cyborg troops into their armies since the preparation for war on Tolkeen. But both full conversion 'borgs and power armor seem to fulfill the same role on the battlefield, that of heavy, armored infantry with the option of making them air-mobile as well with flight systems or jet packs.

Other powers, like the Germans and Japanese, possess advanced capabilities in both fields and field a diverse array of both types of technology. I'm not sure why, however. A power armor requires much of the same resources but allows for a pilot to live a normal life away from the battlefield. A cyborg makes a life altering decision which is nearly always permanent, to become a living engine of war. This is accepted and even lauded in some places, like Russia, as a brave sacrifice for the good of their people, but it is still a terrible burden to bear. In Japan, it is reversible, but the best that most 'borgs can hope for is to be transferred to something like a light machine body or a cyberoid frame. You'll never get your flesh and blood body back. Most 'borgs are likely happy or accepting of their choice, but societally, they may become disruptive. They can't really integrate into normal society with bodies like theirs, as they are walking tanks, even if their armaments are removed.

Personally, I love 'borgs, but I can't see the military reason for it. I'm sure there are cyborg systems that you can't include in a power armor, but is it that those are impossible or just haven't been written in as power armor features? Are 'borgs cheaper in general?

I think for most military forces borgs would work like they do in the CS you are not turning healthy soldiers into borgs for the most part you are converting loyal troops who were heavily injured in combat. Being able to turn critically injured/crippled troops into MDC juggernauts is a really good way to save all the knowledge and experience those troops have acquired into a new and even more powerful body. For the CS and the NGR they have been fighting near constant low grade/high grade warfare vs supernatural/magical beings and this would leave a large amount of crippled and seriously injured soldiers. They have the tech to repair those injuries and you have to assume a large percentage of people who got hurt by those forces would if offered the chance jump at the option to be able to upgrade into a body that can walk and move and be able to fight again.

It may sound scary to basically be turned into a walking tank with limited sense of touch but if a person is paralyzed or seriously burned or permanently crippled even that could be a huge improvement of what they otherwise would have. Also most militaries seem to offer long time borg soldiers the option for eventual bio systems coversion or switching to a light cyberhumanoid type body which while not normal is human enough not to raise to many eyebrows in normal society.

I think if you have the tech for it most forces are going to be more prone to going power armor even if it was less powerful simply because most societies would not have a big enough pool of volunteers for major bionic enhancements.

The two really major borg heavy military forces are new japan and the warlords of russia. New japan uses both borgs and power armor their borg force is bigger just due to cultural reasons of long term admiration for cybernetic enhancement and cyborgs. The other is the warlords for them it is some bit societal but also has a tech component in that it looks like they lack the ability to make the higher output nuke plants needed for power armor. I think if they really chose to do so they could develop that ability but their society has revolved around massive combat borgs that power armor would not really offer enough combat advantages to really make them bother trying to develop them.


Power wise power armor and cyborgs are really pretty close. Power armor in general tends to have a bit more potent weapon systems and cyborgs tend to be more densely armored. The fact that cyborgs can wear the cyborg infantry armor which gives them a huge layer often as much or more than a power armors main body MDC in the form of a totally disposable ablative armor is a pretty big advantage for cyborgs.

With things like the warlords shocktroopers you see borgs that can fill the samas role, samson role and with the one sovietski massive cyborg up to even mid sized robot vehicle roles.

[kaid]

I think that a suit of power armor is cheaper than a FCB. Can anyone confirm?

--flatline

I think that depends. A light full conversion borg I believe is a bit cheaper than the average power armor mainly because whatever power system they have is not a full fledged nuke plant and the power supply is from all that we have seen one of the bigger ticket items in power armor.

I think on average though a medium/heavy borg probably is as expensive and possibly a bit more expensive. But a medium/heavy conversion borg with medium heavy cyborg armor has probably double the durability of any power armor other than maybe glitterboys. Fully stacked shock troopers and heavy borgs can hit 600-700 MDC about half of which is totally disposable ablative armor. So basically you have a slightly bigger than man sized unit with heavy combat robot vehicle level of durability.

[kaid]

Just for curiosity I just glanced at my NGR book it looks like the costs are roughly equal. Note though that power armor varies between units by insane amounts so it is really rough.

In the NGR book the light conversion premade borgs cost 2-4 million creds depending on how heavily upgraded they are and the heaviest full borg is 7-8 million credits.

Power armor you go from terrain hopper at like 500k but is power armor thats barely more armor than normal body armor and no real weapons to the NGR glitterboy thats 60 million credits which shows how hard it is to really say for sure but if you look at things like the predator/super trooper which are similiar size/roles to the borg the prices are around 2 million which makes them pretty much the same price as an entry light cyborg up to the jaeger which is power armor/robot vehicle at around 12 million credits.

So it would vary depending on what model of which you were trying to build but overall the costs appear to be pretty similar.

[Chronicle]

Bio system replacements can help with transition back to civilian life

[FluidicAztec]

Cool thread...Borgs also have +5 vs possession, +3 vs magic, can't be affected by bio-manipulation, any telemechanics, see aura or anything that attacks HP directly (RUE pg 47). I've played a Psi-Tech. They can be pretty nasty against robots and PA using Telemechanic Possession or Paralysis. Using pilots vs the converted is much simpler and doesn't carry a large strain on the individuals mental state. However, I think borgs are far more combat versatile. The CS doesn't really mod their PA or robots but I'm sure they have a large operation set up for customizing Borgs for a variety of situations.

[The Baron of chaos]

I've thought about this particular dilemma over years and i come with few answers that worled for me:

1)Juicers are the chepest form of augmentations, reliable, easy to reply, and once you know the "recipe" no harder to come up, in a realtively high tech environment, than a meth lab. Still is adrug and there is limits on how you can augment a human(oid) body in such way. At some point you should go for genetic engineering
2) Crazies are tad more expensive, but mostly are MORE complicated, as is a very fined, tuned and complex brain cybernetic augmentations. Need more time to recover than Juicers, and well, there are notorious drawbacks
3)Power Armor. The average. In the sense that is the form of augmentation favored by armies. For all the reason already pointed out in this thread so far. Training is cheap and fast, they are reliable, is no more harder to integrate in the army than any vehicular or armored troops, also they offer a standardized output of field results, making easy to plan strategy with
4 Bionics. Now at first make little sense. That's it till you move a lil' bit away from the context of the RULES of the game ain itself and go toward the logic behind it. Bionics is part of the body. Literally. Is much more advanced than we could imagine, more close to Tetsu-ro biomechanical abominations than Robocop actually. The time of reaction is FASTER than human power armor pilot and training is limited to just learn what your body can do now, faster than you could think thank to the build in computer(one of the few things i liked of the new robocop movie is how the explained that is hard to say what was an human decision and what instead a computer decision that trick the brain in believing it was his own decision). You've lot of built in system and the main advantage, other than never being that vulnerable anymore, is that NO ONE but you and the technician that build you, know exactly what weapong you have. Even Standard cyborg model, tend to be personalized enough that is anybody guess. This means that most borg, eventually, LITERALLY become their job! In fact the mining borg, suggest that is desiderable augmentaion if one expect very prolonged periods in VERY hostile environment(there is limit about how much you can pass in a power armor before going nuts. And if you pass 24/7 in a PA...what's the differenc e from being a cyborg then?). Underground, underwater, in space, in whatever hellish hole Rifts Earth decide to shift into at any given time.... Borg alos require less maintenance, as the borg themselves know enough to take care of the basics, leaving tech support only for the most serious and hardest parts(and some borgs have a modular structure making replacemtne super fast, at the point one Borg could carry spare parts in backpack in combat). Also they can still use vehicles AND power Armors(the Borg pilots of NGR are an AWESOME exmple of it). Of course this sort of augmentation leav eone pondering due the extreme de-humanizing aspects. That's it till you realize that in Rifts Earth there is , in no metaphoric way, for true, hell on earth. Actually multiple Hells. With the weakeste demons/monsters tough enough to be comparable to a small tank. The sense of vulnerability and paranoia is such that short of burying 24/7 into a power armor only becoming one would make you sleep at night finally.

[GlitterKnight]

Some great discussion and points in the thread!

From a military planning standpoint, the most important variable is usually cost for a weapons system, and the numbers we have are only the Black Market cost for most of the power armor and bionics, which is definitely inflated as it's contraband. What would be awesome to know is how much it costs the governments that field these things to make them. I dearly wanna know how much the Coalition pays per Skelebot.

It's also nearly impossible to price a full conversion 'borg, as the OCC doesn't say how much they've spent to this point and just gives you the left over customization cash. The Black Market prices a player is charged also don't reflect what a government's military would pay for the same systems and parts. They have huge buying power, they buy in massive bulk and most of it is probably produced by state owned enterprises solely for the military (in the Coalition, at least; even after reading Triax 2 I'm still not sure how Triax and the NGR fit together, where one ends and the other begins, but I guess it's supposed to be like that). The closest I can get to pricing a full conversion 'borg chassis is the NGR's cyborg bodies from WB 5. Each of those is listed around 2-4 million credits. That's a lot of money, but again, that's Black Market prices. A Samson suit can be had for around 900,000 credits (and you don't have to go to the Black Market to buy one, you can buy direct from NG!). Compare that to, say, the VX-340 Slasher, "Gold", which goes for 5 mil. The Slasher isn't as tough, but it can wear the light infantry cyborg armor, which provides better protection than the Samson does to it's pilot. It's not as strong as the Samson is by RAW, but the RUE states the full conversion 'borgs now receive Robot PS, so it should be as strong now. The Slasher has equivalent mini-missile launchers, and it's Vibro-Swords vs the Samson's knuckle spikes + punch damage, they seem even in hand to hand damage dealing, though the cybernetic PP gives the Slasher +5 to strike and parry. The Slasher does have a leg laser rod, but you could buy crate loads of more effective sidearms for the Samson for the price difference. The Samson can also run faster and jump higher and further, but the Slasher will never tire.

Not that I think of it, the two aren't a very fair comparison, but I chose the Samson as the default ground power armor, as it's the oldest in the game and is in the core book, which keeps a lot of the power creep out. The Slasher is from an old and early book, and is an iconic 'borg, but it's pretty clearly a very high end model, vs the Samson which is essentially the Model T of power armor. The Slasher wins, but it's 5 times as expensive, and I don't think the purchase price includes the body armor. I do believe it includes the TX-500 railgun, as the Black Market price says it includes "all standard features and weapons", and the Samson does come with it's NG-202 railgun and a full drum!

So the Slasher is superior in stats, but it's cost is prohibitive. You can field 5 Samsons for the same price as a standard Slasher, and have around 500k left over to equip them with additional and substitute weapons. Much like the US Sherman vs the German Panzer in WW2; yes our tanks may be cheap and crap when compared to your machine, but the five of us will swarm you. You can kill 4 of us but the 5th will get you in the rear while you do. Even that analogy isn't that apt; while the Slasher in 'borg armor may be tougher, without additional weapons it doesn't deal the damage to bust a Samson that quickly. In an even fight, It would likely account for one or two Samsons before the rest bring it down. I know such thought experiments are mostly useless, as no battles take place 5 v 1 in tabula rasa, but damage vs MDC points doesn't favor the Slasher.

Something I have also considered is the power of being able to adjust PP as well as PS for 'borgs, which suddenly boosts your strike in melee, your dodge and your parry bonuses. I know RPA combat gives bonuses like that and each suit has it's own, but I've never played a RPA pilot so I don't know them as well. I've played a 'borg once and it's easier to adjust your stats and accrue bonuses, as you're essentially just supercharging your starting human character. A pilot has to PILOT, so you have to look at your stats and bonuses, your piloting skills bonuses, and what bonuses that particular armor provides. I guess it might be more complicated, but one may be better just by numbers. I'm afraid I don't know the piloting stuff well enough to hazard a guess at what an RPA pilot would have in a Samson.

As for magic and psionics, it's true that 'borgs get bonuses to saves due to their mostly mechanical nature, but they are still vulnerable to them. A whole slew of powers and spells cannot affect the person inside a power armor, but could affect a 'borg. The pilot is hermetically sealed inside his armor, cut off from the outside world, so the magic or power cannot 'reach' them. A 'borg IS the metal body, so they can be targeted directly.

[kaid]

Yes pricing full conversion borgs is hard that is why I was using the listed price of the stock triax models as they are some of the few borg types that actually lists a price for the package which gives us at least a rough guide line for costs. Going by those and the few other full borg packages like the ones from new west and free quebec in general their listed costs are at least in the same ball park as power armor. But both tend to vary wildly depending what one you are looking at.

Really when doing comparisons with things like the samson you are probably looking more of a match with one of the light triax borg models which would be in the 1-2 mill range. Similar speed both in the 120+ range similar amounts of armor and weaponry.

Really where the borgs shine compared to most power armor though is at the high end for the heavy full conversion borgs. When you look at the triax red borg the manslaughter or whatever its real name is you have a cyborg that for 8-9 mil has 700 MDC main body armor while still being pretty fast and heavily armed. That borg has more armor than most robot vehicles let alone power armor for a fraction of the price of a robot vehicle and comparable price to higher grade power armors. The only power armors that come close to that armor wise are glitterboys and those are in the 20+ mil range.

So while at the low end power armor and light borgs are pretty similar with power armor probably having a bit of an edge cost wise at the high end cyborgs tend be better heavy assault units than any but the best power armor and tend to be much less pricey than those so very effective bang for the buck for that kind of usage.

The warlords of russia shock troopers is pretty much the ideal full conversion borg role. Heavy assault shock troopers who can just punch their way through incredible amounts of fire to break up and route their opponents.


Edit

One thing to note also when looking at the triax cyborgs is it is probably best to compare them to other triax power armors for the most consistent black market pricing. The predator and the jaeger and super trooper are the three common power armors used by the triax military. The predator and super trooper are both listed at around the 2 million credit mark and the jaeger I think is at the 12 million credit mark. Compared to those the comparable triax borg models are all right in that price range the light conversions are around 2-4 million and the heavy assaults models are 7-8 million.

[Greyaxe]

I think that a suit of power armor is cheaper than a FCB. Can anyone confirm?

--flatline

Samas 1.2 million FCB 8 million for Traix Manhunter.

[kaid]

I think that a suit of power armor is cheaper than a FCB. Can anyone confirm?

--flatline

Samas 1.2 million FCB 8 million for Traix Manhunter.

Well if you are comparing power armor a samas would likely compare to a light borg so if you look at one of the two light full conversion borgs in Triax it would be about 2 million creds for the borg. The Manhunter is the heaviest of the full conversion borgs and about 3 times the armor of a samas.

And if you look at the new model samas like the super samas the manhunter is still close to double the armor and costs about the same.

[Dog_O_War]

Before I start a flame war, allow me to clarify. I'm not asking "which is better?" (well, not necessarily), I'm asking why a military would choose one over the other?

A decent military wouldn't choose one over the other; you'll note that all the decent militaries of Rifts Earth use both because both have advantages and strengths.

As a defining line though, powered armour is cheaper; you can get a suit for less than 90,000 credits (yay Chipwell!) whereas you cannot get a Borg body (that's an MDC body) for under a million.

To the factor of the Borg though, you can literally stick any country bumpkin into a Borg and you've got an instant soldier because your average Borg, even with no hand-to-hand skill can still beat to death a half-dozen grunts, whom all took (at minimum) weeks to train.

Additionally, there is the factor that you can put a Borg into a suit of PA. Basically, the two technologies are synergistic. The NGR uses Borgs to pilot their aircraft because of that possible synergy.

So to answer your question, if given the choice, no military worth its salt would choose one technology over the other. What that leaves us with is when choices are taken from them; a military with almost no budget will choose the cheapest option; powered armour. Meanwhile, a military with the funding but without time to train troops would be more than willing to toss Borgs into a meat-grinder.

[Shark_Force]

i think the main difference is repair costs. the 'borgs all have removable armour that you can pretty much just throw away once it gets heavily damaged. that armour is generally providing more protection than actually wearing a suit of power armour, and costs a heck of a lot less to replace.

now, if you get through that extra armour, sure, the 'borg will be just as expensive (if not more so) to repair, but by that time you would have chewed through 1.5 power armour suits anyways as far as heavy armour is concerned (so you'd have already lost a suit, probably the person inside the suit, and another suit is halfway destroyed).

as far as armaments, 'borg weapons may not be that amazing but in rifts small arms really aren't that far behind what the robot vehicles are carrying, except when it comes to missiles... and most power armour suits aren't really carrying many of those either. so you just give a 'borg one (or more) of the heavier and stronger infantry weapons (like a JA-12 or the WI fully automatic grenade launcher) and go to town.

[Killer Cyborg]

i think the main difference is repair costs. the 'borgs all have removable armour that you can pretty much just throw away once it gets heavily damaged. that armour is generally providing more protection than actually wearing a suit of power armour, and costs a heck of a lot less to replace.

now, if you get through that extra armour, sure, the 'borg will be just as expensive (if not more so) to repair, but by that time you would have chewed through 1.5 power armour suits anyways as far as heavy armour is concerned (so you'd have already lost a suit, probably the person inside the suit, and another suit is halfway destroyed).

Excellent point.

[kaid]

Yes one of the borgs biggest bonuses is the extra ablative layer of armor they can wear. The heaviest I think is 420 MDC worth of protection. For borgs who can sport that you are basically wearing a samas and a half of extra armor protection of armor that can simply be ejected if it becomes to damaged and armor that has to be penetrated to even begin to actually hurt the borg.

Initial costs borgs are probably a hair more expensive but not much than similar levels of power armor and over time costs borgs due to the ease of repairing their extra armor or replacing it probably wind up being cheaper over time for long term costs.

Borgs tend to be more heavily armored but less heavily armed but as mentioned rifts small arms on the high end is pretty similar to what power armor uses. Finding weapons that do 1d4x10 or 1d6x10 has hand weapons for borgs is pretty straight forward.

The original borgs were a bit more limited but when you start getting into things like the triax models and the free quebec models that have built in mini missile launchers/grenade launchers and what not they pack an offensive punch about the same as you would find from a power armor.

As others have said borgs and power armor are not an either or issue. Typically an military force is going to have both in it power armor is going to be more common simply because more people can use them and no major medical procedures are required. But MDC combat being what it is any sizable military is going to have more than enough volunteers for partial conversions and light and full bionic conversions.

[guardiandashi]

I think in an ideal situation any "smart" military is going to have as many options open as possible and use both.

the "reality" is a little different I would actually argue that power armor and cybernetics in a lot of ways use many of the same technologies just in different ways.

if you have a society that has a culture or sub culture that is heavy into "body modification" like in rifts japan they you are going to have a lot of borg options and not necessarily a huge stigma for doing those conversions.

the Russia book pointed out that they had a slightly different take on it, and actually look at it as a positive, in a way IE not many really WANT the conversion in the general population but anyone who does it gets major thanks for their sacrifice.

on the other end of the spectrum is "human supremacists" like the coalition who have issues with the whole dehumanizing aspects of the tech. doesn't mean they don't use it but people who make the conversion are somewhat shunned feared or pitied

[Library Ogre]

I tend to be on the side that the military will prefer power armor (cheaper, easier to return to civilian life, easier to switch between individuals), but will use Borgs as necessary.

It's worth noting that, assuming one only has cybernetics, not bionics, power-armor is still completely viable. Someone with bio-system replacements in power armor isn't significantly different than the same person with natural limbs in the same.

[kaid]

I tend to be on the side that the military will prefer power armor (cheaper, easier to return to civilian life, easier to switch between individuals), but will use Borgs as necessary.

It's worth noting that, assuming one only has cybernetics, not bionics, power-armor is still completely viable. Someone with bio-system replacements in power armor isn't significantly different than the same person with natural limbs in the same.

Partial conversion borgs such as head hunters who actually are potentially near full MDC and light full conversion borg like the cyber humanoid would be fully capable of wearing power armor as well. Really the only ones who could not are the bigger medium/heavy assault borgs who are significantly taller and heavier than normal humans.

[Library Ogre]

I tend to be on the side that the military will prefer power armor (cheaper, easier to return to civilian life, easier to switch between individuals), but will use Borgs as necessary.

It's worth noting that, assuming one only has cybernetics, not bionics, power-armor is still completely viable. Someone with bio-system replacements in power armor isn't significantly different than the same person with natural limbs in the same.

Partial conversion borgs such as head hunters who actually are potentially near full MDC and light full conversion borg like the cyber humanoid would be fully capable of wearing power armor as well. Really the only ones who could not are the bigger medium/heavy assault borgs who are significantly taller and heavier than normal humans.

Sure, but it then goes back to cost. Power armor is cheaper.

[kaid]

I tend to be on the side that the military will prefer power armor (cheaper, easier to return to civilian life, easier to switch between individuals), but will use Borgs as necessary.

It's worth noting that, assuming one only has cybernetics, not bionics, power-armor is still completely viable. Someone with bio-system replacements in power armor isn't significantly different than the same person with natural limbs in the same.

Partial conversion borgs such as head hunters who actually are potentially near full MDC and light full conversion borg like the cyber humanoid would be fully capable of wearing power armor as well. Really the only ones who could not are the bigger medium/heavy assault borgs who are significantly taller and heavier than normal humans.

Sure, but it then goes back to cost. Power armor is cheaper.

Well for every power armor that is cheaper than the few borgs we know the full price for I could point out another set of power armor that is more expensive. Power armor prices vary wildly which makes any generalizations as to what is cheaper or more expensive problematic. You go from chipwell power armor that is 100k or so all the way up to things like the NGR glitterboy that is 60+ million creds.

Take triax the most common power armor in their military is the jaeger and that costs 12 million a pop which is more expensive than any of the triax borg options.

[Dog_O_War]

I tend to be on the side that the military will prefer power armor (cheaper, easier to return to civilian life, easier to switch between individuals), but will use Borgs as necessary.

It's worth noting that, assuming one only has cybernetics, not bionics, power-armor is still completely viable. Someone with bio-system replacements in power armor isn't significantly different than the same person with natural limbs in the same.

Partial conversion borgs such as head hunters who actually are potentially near full MDC and light full conversion borg like the cyber humanoid would be fully capable of wearing power armor as well. Really the only ones who could not are the bigger medium/heavy assault borgs who are significantly taller and heavier than normal humans.

Sure, but it then goes back to cost. Power armor is cheaper.

Well for every power armor that is cheaper than the few borgs we know the full price for I could point out another set of power armor that is more expensive. Power armor prices vary wildly which makes any generalizations as to what is cheaper or more expensive problematic. You go from chipwell power armor that is 100k or so all the way up to things like the NGR glitterboy that is 60+ million creds.

Take triax the most common power armor in their military is the jaeger and that costs 12 million a pop which is more expensive than any of the triax borg options.

So excluding Chipwell, and instead taking the three lowest-costing powered armours, and then comparing them to the lowest-costing Borg you can find, is powered armour cheaper or more expensive than Borgs?

[kaid]

I tend to be on the side that the military will prefer power armor (cheaper, easier to return to civilian life, easier to switch between individuals), but will use Borgs as necessary.

It's worth noting that, assuming one only has cybernetics, not bionics, power-armor is still completely viable. Someone with bio-system replacements in power armor isn't significantly different than the same person with natural limbs in the same.

Partial conversion borgs such as head hunters who actually are potentially near full MDC and light full conversion borg like the cyber humanoid would be fully capable of wearing power armor as well. Really the only ones who could not are the bigger medium/heavy assault borgs who are significantly taller and heavier than normal humans.

Sure, but it then goes back to cost. Power armor is cheaper.

Well for every power armor that is cheaper than the few borgs we know the full price for I could point out another set of power armor that is more expensive. Power armor prices vary wildly which makes any generalizations as to what is cheaper or more expensive problematic. You go from chipwell power armor that is 100k or so all the way up to things like the NGR glitterboy that is 60+ million creds.

Take triax the most common power armor in their military is the jaeger and that costs 12 million a pop which is more expensive than any of the triax borg options.

So excluding Chipwell, and instead taking the three lowest-costing powered armours, and then comparing them to the lowest-costing Borg you can find, is powered armour cheaper or more expensive than Borgs?

How about lets do the reverse pick the three most expensive cyborgs and then pick the three most expensive power armors and I will guarantee the power armor will be the more expensive one.


Edit

Bah its not worth arguing about there are not a good enough sample of borgs that we actually know the entire cost of and there is way to much variability in price in power armors and then you get things into the mix like cyberhumanoids and partial borgs which still probably have more MDC than some of the lighter inexpensive power armors .

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

i think the main difference is repair costs. the 'borgs all have removable armour that you can pretty much just throw away once it gets heavily damaged. that armour is generally providing more protection than actually wearing a suit of power armour, and costs a heck of a lot less to replace.

now, if you get through that extra armour, sure, the 'borg will be just as expensive (if not more so) to repair, but by that time you would have chewed through 1.5 power armour suits anyways as far as heavy armour is concerned (so you'd have already lost a suit, probably the person inside the suit, and another suit is halfway destroyed).

as far as armaments, 'borg weapons may not be that amazing but in rifts small arms really aren't that far behind what the robot vehicles are carrying, except when it comes to missiles... and most power armour suits aren't really carrying many of those either. so you just give a 'borg one (or more) of the heavier and stronger infantry weapons (like a JA-12 or the WI fully automatic grenade launcher) and go to town.

All of this, plus Borgs serve a different role; most Power Armors that are anywhere near man-sized will have significantly less MDC than a heavy borg. Ones that have a lot more MDC and better weapon options are usually quite a bit bigger than people.

Borgs, even heavy borgs, are man-sized, or just a tiny bit bigger (the VX-500 is 8ft tall) - by comparison, even the Samson is 12 or 13ft (busy with dinner, dont have time to look it up) and needs a lot of room to move in. It wouldn't be terribly great in tight spaces or in tight urban combat - but a Borg is just as good in these spaces as any infantryman. And Borgs can easily do the same damage Power Armors can - hell, the NG particle beam in RUE/RMB does 1d4x10 per shot, and in the role we're talking about (close assault/CQB) the range difference is meaningless. Pulse rifles that do 1d6x10 are available, as are plasma cannons and railguns that are borg portable that do 6d6 to great ranges.

Even the best close-assault PA is going to be not as good at the role as a Borg, because of size, weight, and lack of armor compared to a borg (a VX-500 rolls in at 700 combined, 420 of which is easily swappable if damage).

It isnt either/or. You use both. Yes, power armor will be more common, particuarly because it is easier to have different PAs for multiple roles and to fill roles that Borgs arent good at, but at the things borgs are good at (powerhouses in tight spaces, infantry combat, and as heavy support for infantry (such as carrying weapons the other soldiers cant), a PA isn't going to be better and in a lot of cases will be significantly worse.

And on top of that, a Borg can still do a lot of things that at PA suited guy simply cant - like drive a vehicle (including some PAs if they are large enough and the borg is small enough, but im primariy thinking Tank/APC, Skycycle/Hovercraft and Robots), have a physical sense of touch (however degraded, he can still use skills that require a sense of touch that a guy in PA would have to remove his hand armor for, etc).

So, Borgs bring a versatility that PA doesn't, necessarily - in addition to basically being equivalent to a PA himself, he can also do just about everything another infantryman can as well

[kaid]

I must have never really bothered looking before but the warlords of russia book actually does give pricing for the basic partial/light/full conversion options.

55% conversion low end head hunter conversion is 300k for warlords or 850k for NGR

70-80% conversion high end head hunter layout 500k for warlords 1.1 for NGR/cs. Note this is actually a build comparable to most light power armor 65 MDC main body but wears light cyborg armor which is 140 MDC.

light full conversion 95-99% conversion warlords cost 1.4 mil and 2.6 for NGR/CS

heavy machines main assault full conversion borgs warlord cost 2.1 mil and 3.2 for ngr/cs

Shocktroopers vary a bit low end is 2.6 mil warlord cost to around 5 mil on the top end.


For NGR and other faction premade cyborg builds you are looking at around 2 mil for a light borg body and about 5-8 for a heavy. This is pretty consistent across NGR/free quebec/new west/japan from looking at them. I honestly was pretty surprised that the big honking japanese dragon borgs are actually pretty reasonably priced most are less than 8 mil.

With those pricing to help fill things in for the CS military

mauler PA 3.4 mil
terror trooper 4.1 mil
GBK 12.6 mil
old samas 1.6 mil
smiling jack samas 1.8 mil
super samas 5.8 mil
striker samas 2.6 mil


ng units
terrain hopper 500k
super trooper 1.8 mil
t 550 glitterboy 60 mil haha snort
predator 1.9 mil
jaeger 12 mil
super jaeger 16 mil
ulti max 22 mil



So as you can see power armor prices are all over the darn place but cyborgs other than one weird outlier I found the NGR special ops borg which is like 50 mil are generally in the 1-8 million range most being 2-4 million. Power armor is way less constant pricing wise but it averages around the same range and actually if you look at the balance of forces listed for the NGR and CS they likely are actually spending more on power armor per unit than cyborgs as their militaries are a bit slanted towards the bigger ticket items like super samas/jaegers/glitterboy killers.

From the pricing in the warlord book I can see why they don't bother with power armor. If your culture is supportive of cybernetics their borg costs are overall very reasonably priced for the combat effectiveness of them and tend to be overall less expensive than power armor. I am guessing their costs are also lower due to more cyborg mass production than the other factions.

[kaid]

As a random aside the jaegers after really looking at the numbers are a very dubious mech in my eyes. They are clearly power armor as shown by the image in the field mechanic OCC they are expensive at 12 million credits and if you actually get one of the modular weapon mounts each of those mounts is on average 8 million credits. It is a fast unit with similar armor/speed as something like samson PA but with almost no integrated weaponry and all its main weapons are basically borg weapons other than the expensive modular weapon mounts.

From the text the jaeger is the most common power armor in the NG military forces but from the cost perspective I really do not understand why. If cost is not an objective I can sort of understand a fast agile mech with the extra configuration the modular mounts add but dang for a merc unit these things would be a big thanks but no thanks. I would take 12 samsons for the price of the jaeger and another 8 for the cost of the weapon.

[Nightmask]

Something that blurs things is that you can convert those power armor and robots into cyborg shells, rather than going for conventional cyborg conversion, although I don't think I've ever seen any cost given for what it takes to convert say a Glitter Boy to a cyborg body.

[rat_bastard]

Has anyone touched on the fact that Power Armor pilots of even moderate skill (4th-7th) have more attacks than cyborgs of the same level?

[Killer Cyborg]

Has anyone touched on the fact that Power Armor pilots of even moderate skill (4th-7th) have more attacks than cyborgs of the same level?

Not that I've noticed.
Nor that borgs with multiple arms and a tail can have extra attacks as well (for extra cost).

[kaid]

Has anyone touched on the fact that Power Armor pilots of even moderate skill (4th-7th) have more attacks than cyborgs of the same level?

Not that I've noticed.
Nor that borgs with multiple arms and a tail can have extra attacks as well (for extra cost).

This is pretty much why I did not bring it up its kinda hard to quantify. Power armor gets more attacks with their HTH skills but borgs can buy them with extra appendages. So borgs could have more attacks at lower levels and power armor can get more attacks at high levels sort of a wash.

[Dog_O_War]

How about lets do the reverse pick the three most expensive cyborgs and then pick the three most expensive power armors and I will guarantee the power armor will be the more expensive one.

Looks like you just fell for my Trap Card (been looking at too many Yu-Gi-Oh! memes lately).
But yes, I purposefully set up the scenario in the hopes that someone would reverse it, because a while back I was reading Naruni Wave 2 and they have a Borg in there (it's a ship controlled via a brain) that tops any powered armour I've seen, making the Borg still the most expensive choice.

Edit

Bah its not worth arguing about there are not a good enough sample of borgs that we actually know the entire cost of and there is way to much variability in price in power armors and then you get things into the mix like cyberhumanoids and partial borgs which still probably have more MDC than some of the lighter inexpensive power armors .

Yeah; basically the "build-a-borg/robot/transferred intelligence" is the only real bench-marker we have for a custom unit, and it is always really damn expensive. So you look at the pre-builts and they're still expensive than the bottom-line PAs.

Most of us get what you're getting at though; that, by model, you're going to find that powered armour is more expensive because of the sheer number of mid and high-cost suits out there. But I don't believe you'd find that, by unit-count, powered armour represents a more expensive market. I mean, there's a million suits of SAMAS out there, which I would be likely represents a literal half of all powered armour units on Rifts Earth.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

. I mean, there's a million suits of SAMAS out there, which I would be likely represents a literal half of all powered armour units on Rifts Earth.

Actially, it's more like 6 million + SAMAS out there, as they retired over three million of the Old-Style SAMAS to ISS use, and, one would think, replaced them with various new models for the Army.

However, given that the NGR's Armed forces are at least as large as the CS', i'd doubt that SAM's make up half the powered armor on Rifts Earth, or even close, especially when you factor in other suppliers like Northern Gun, the nations of South America, and, oh, i dunno... Atlantis, where the Kittani alone probably have a few million suits of Manling and Serpent armor.

[kaid]

How about lets do the reverse pick the three most expensive cyborgs and then pick the three most expensive power armors and I will guarantee the power armor will be the more expensive one.

Looks like you just fell for my Trap Card (been looking at too many Yu-Gi-Oh! memes lately).
But yes, I purposefully set up the scenario in the hopes that someone would reverse it, because a while back I was reading Naruni Wave 2 and they have a Borg in there (it's a ship controlled via a brain) that tops any powered armour I've seen, making the Borg still the most expensive choice.

Edit

Bah its not worth arguing about there are not a good enough sample of borgs that we actually know the entire cost of and there is way to much variability in price in power armors and then you get things into the mix like cyberhumanoids and partial borgs which still probably have more MDC than some of the lighter inexpensive power armors .

Yeah; basically the "build-a-borg/robot/transferred intelligence" is the only real bench-marker we have for a custom unit, and it is always really damn expensive. So you look at the pre-builts and they're still expensive than the bottom-line PAs.

Most of us get what you're getting at though; that, by model, you're going to find that powered armour is more expensive because of the sheer number of mid and high-cost suits out there. But I don't believe you'd find that, by unit-count, powered armour represents a more expensive market. I mean, there's a million suits of SAMAS out there, which I would be likely represents a literal half of all powered armour units on Rifts Earth.

Well the three most expensive for either likely would still wind up with power armor being more expensive especially if we start pulling out some three galaxies stuff where they have power armor that is pretty much space fighters and priced as such.

Looking at rifts earth models there is basically the NGR special ops borg at 50 mil which I have no freaking clue why anybody would pay that kind of money for it since you can do pretty much everything it does in a build it yourself model for less than 8 million. The next two would be the big sovietski borg and the biggest japanese dragon borgs both of those are I believe in the 12 mil range.

There are quite a few 10 million and up power armor options with just rifts earth models not even going into the three galaxies power armor/space fighters and more than a few of the glitter boy variants are 20million+ with the NGR glitterboy in the 60 million range.

I was actually kinda surprised how cheap the warlords shock trooper borgs were I always thought they would be more expensive not that you will ever find them on the open market.

Overall power armor and cyborgs tend to fall in similar ranges in price on the low end you have head hunters being pretty comparable to things like the terrain hopper price and durability wise and on the high end you get things like glitterboys and heavy assault shock troopers that have 700-800 MDC.

At the high end of the MDC spectrum it is overall less expensive to buy a heavy assault shock trooper type borg than it is a power armor with that same range of MDC. At the low end its hard to to get a cyborg to match an old style surplus samas or samson without it being more expensive.

[Alrik Vas]

I think Power Armor and 'borgs, though similar do fill different roles, as some have stated before.

Personally, i feel that combat cyborgs make amazing troops in urban warfare. They're man-sized while strong enough to carry heavy weapons, have good to amazing armor, high mobility and can move hard/fast enough to smash through the walls of most buildings. A cyborg trooper can probably deal with a good 10 grunts alone if they don't fight like an idiot. A squad of cyborgs sent on a mission with a specific goal are highly likely to see it realized.

Power armor is pretty different in it's scope of operation. It's more of a field weapon. They provide close support to infantry and in groups can engage larger targets, or as with specific models, can provide anti-air to defend advancing troops. Power armor squads also tend to make excellent take hunters, giving them an anti-armor role as well.

Basically it's super infantry (borgs) and close infantry support (PA).

[rat_bastard]

I think Power Armor and 'borgs, though similar do fill different roles, as some have stated before.

Personally, i feel that combat cyborgs make amazing troops in urban warfare. They're man-sized while strong enough to carry heavy weapons, have good to amazing armor, high mobility and can move hard/fast enough to smash through the walls of most buildings. A cyborg trooper can probably deal with a good 10 grunts alone if they don't fight like an idiot. A squad of cyborgs sent on a mission with a specific goal are highly likely to see it realized.

Power armor is pretty different in it's scope of operation. It's more of a field weapon. They provide close support to infantry and in groups can engage larger targets, or as with specific models, can provide anti-air to defend advancing troops. Power armor squads also tend to make excellent take hunters, giving them an anti-armor role as well.

Basically it's super infantry (borgs) and close infantry support (PA).

You are assigning imaginary values to power armor and robots, there are plenty of Power Armor suits that weigh barely more than a suit of regular armor and many borgs that are well over a thousand pounds and tend to be at least 50% bigger than a man.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

You are assigning imaginary values to power armor and robots,

How do you figure?

there are plenty of Power Armor suits that weigh barely more than a suit of regular armor and

Weight isn't the biggest issue. Wouldn't even put it in the top 3.

many borgs that are well over a thousand pounds and tend to be at least 50% bigger than a man.

Other than the Russian Borgs (which we all agree are outside the norm because they are substitutes for Power Armor and Robots in that setting).... which ones are those? All the Triax borgs are human sized. So are the ones in New West. In fact, almost every pre-made chasis i can find outside of the oddballs (Dragon Borgs, Russian borgs) are 9ft or smaller. They certainly dont tend to be "at least 50% bigger than a man".

Most Power Armor (with a very few exceptions, and certainly any of them that are heavily armored and armed enough to match a borg in close combat) are significantly taller (Samson is 12+ ft, most are that size or bigger) or have other reasons they wouldn't fit inside a building or other CQB environment (Sam's backpack/wings and giant 4ft long gun, Flying Titan's backpack/wings).

The few small Power Armors that are "man sized" (even including the SAM, Terrain Hopper, etc) tend to have mediocre armor compared to an equivalent borg (in a lot of cases, not even double what standard infantry armor provides) and weaker weapons (or no weapons that they can use inside a tight environment).

Power Armor certainly has its uses - but so do Cyborgs. And they are, by and large, different specialist uses, though they can also both accomplish a lot of the same basic, infantry-level tasks.

[taalismn]

From a psychological viewpoint, FCBs tend to be more full-bore than PA jocks; an FCB is either somebody who's already lost so much of themselves that they either consented to be converted, or they HAD to be converted. Or, if they were healthy to begin with, they chose to throw away their organic being to become something both more and less than what they were. So you've either got zealots, uberpatriots, or grimdarkers simmering in their new half-life. A full-con is more or less weapons-grade ALL the time, ready to break heads with their mechanical strength, run people down with their superspeed, and shed small arms fire with their armored hides. In most socities, even nice-guy cyborgs get given a wide berth because of the panzer they got under their skins, ready to blitzkrieg.
Power armor jocks are like truck drivers; they may be tough, but at the end of the work day they can climb out of the cab, and resume a normal life, drink beer with their buddies, get laid, play with their families. There might still be zealots and headcases in the ranks, but in general PA pilots can skin off the weapon and become normal for awhile. The idea that under the hard shell, there's a regular joe(however much of a bastard they may be) makes being around PAs a bit easier for people to take and more acceptable(or, ifrom an opposition point of view, SOFTER TARGETS). A PA pilot cracking open his armor and offering a candy bar to a waif is seen as an 'awwww' moment. A full-con cyborg doing the same for a kid strikes a lot as creepy.

In combat that means that FCBs are a lot more likely to come at you like kamikazes, while PAs might be a bit more hesitant(unless you're threatening their families or just vaporized said families).

And when hostilities are over, it's a lot easier to demob PAs than FCBs.

[Alrik Vas]

I think Power Armor and 'borgs, though similar do fill different roles, as some have stated before.

Personally, i feel that combat cyborgs make amazing troops in urban warfare. They're man-sized while strong enough to carry heavy weapons, have good to amazing armor, high mobility and can move hard/fast enough to smash through the walls of most buildings. A cyborg trooper can probably deal with a good 10 grunts alone if they don't fight like an idiot. A squad of cyborgs sent on a mission with a specific goal are highly likely to see it realized.

Power armor is pretty different in it's scope of operation. It's more of a field weapon. They provide close support to infantry and in groups can engage larger targets, or as with specific models, can provide anti-air to defend advancing troops. Power armor squads also tend to make excellent take hunters, giving them an anti-armor role as well.

Basically it's super infantry (borgs) and close infantry support (PA).

You are assigning imaginary values to power armor and robots, there are plenty of Power Armor suits that weigh barely more than a suit of regular armor and many borgs that are well over a thousand pounds and tend to be at least 50% bigger than a man.

What imaginary values? Mechanoids might be cyborgs and some of them are 10ft and greater for sure, but we're talking about the standard 'borg chasis. They're not mecha sized. What PA aside the terrain hopper is under 9ft tall and fills the role of urban combat the way a 'borg does? (not challenging! Really want to know if you have an answer )

[eliakon]

Power Armor certainly has its uses - but so do Cyborgs. And they are, by and large, different specialist uses, though they can also both accomplish a lot of the same basic, infantry-level tasks.

THIS
So much this. They are both great...at their job...which is not the same job...
You use the right tool for the right job.

[taalismn]

And tanks are cheaper than many PAs, but a tank can't shoulder its way into your house, leap up your stairs, kick down your doors, and punch you out personally in the face in your own bathroom. There's a lot more 'borgs and PAs that can do that than tanks.
PAs and 'borgs can offer that PERSONAL touch to smackdown that artillery and heavy machinegun fire lacks.

[Alrik Vas]

We need a like button

[kaid]

How about lets do the reverse pick the three most expensive cyborgs and then pick the three most expensive power armors and I will guarantee the power armor will be the more expensive one.

Looks like you just fell for my Trap Card (been looking at too many Yu-Gi-Oh! memes lately).
But yes, I purposefully set up the scenario in the hopes that someone would reverse it, because a while back I was reading Naruni Wave 2 and they have a Borg in there (it's a ship controlled via a brain) that tops any powered armour I've seen, making the Borg still the most expensive choice.

Edit

Bah its not worth arguing about there are not a good enough sample of borgs that we actually know the entire cost of and there is way to much variability in price in power armors and then you get things into the mix like cyberhumanoids and partial borgs which still probably have more MDC than some of the lighter inexpensive power armors .

Yeah; basically the "build-a-borg/robot/transferred intelligence" is the only real bench-marker we have for a custom unit, and it is always really damn expensive. So you look at the pre-builts and they're still expensive than the bottom-line PAs.

Most of us get what you're getting at though; that, by model, you're going to find that powered armour is more expensive because of the sheer number of mid and high-cost suits out there. But I don't believe you'd find that, by unit-count, powered armour represents a more expensive market. I mean, there's a million suits of SAMAS out there, which I would be likely represents a literal half of all powered armour units on Rifts Earth.

Okay I read that naruni wave 2 ship that thing is about as much power armor as it is cyborg which is to say not really but kinda if you squint really hard and have a really iffy definition of power armor or cyborgs.

The pilot of the ship enters the pilot compartment like any normal ship or power armor but then once inside basically gets fused with it so sort of cyborg but basically once fused the human mind is not in direct control of the vessel. The AI is the primary control of the ship and the human gestalt with it basically allows the AI to play hunches and make choices on friend or foe. So is it cybernetic yes but is it a cyborg that is a trickier question. I would argue that it is more of a bio organic enhanced AI than it is a cyborg.

[Dog_O_War]

Okay I read that naruni wave 2 ship that thing is about as much power armor as it is cyborg which is to say not really but kinda if you squint really hard and have a really iffy definition of power armor or cyborgs.

The pilot of the ship enters the pilot compartment like any normal ship or power armor but then once inside basically gets fused with it so sort of cyborg but basically once fused the human mind is not in direct control of the vessel. The AI is the primary control of the ship and the human gestalt with it basically allows the AI to play hunches and make choices on friend or foe. So is it cybernetic yes but is it a cyborg that is a trickier question. I would argue that it is more of a bio organic enhanced AI than it is a cyborg.

Being controlled by the AI (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) is a bit of a trademark of Naruni though. At the end of the day, the ship is fused to a person; that - technology and biology fused together - is the definition of cyborg. Otherwise it would be a ship with a pilot, correct?

[kaid]

Okay I read that naruni wave 2 ship that thing is about as much power armor as it is cyborg which is to say not really but kinda if you squint really hard and have a really iffy definition of power armor or cyborgs.

The pilot of the ship enters the pilot compartment like any normal ship or power armor but then once inside basically gets fused with it so sort of cyborg but basically once fused the human mind is not in direct control of the vessel. The AI is the primary control of the ship and the human gestalt with it basically allows the AI to play hunches and make choices on friend or foe. So is it cybernetic yes but is it a cyborg that is a trickier question. I would argue that it is more of a bio organic enhanced AI than it is a cyborg.

Being controlled by the AI (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) is a bit of a trademark of Naruni though. At the end of the day, the ship is fused to a person; that - technology and biology fused together - is the definition of cyborg. Otherwise it would be a ship with a pilot, correct?

Although technically the one skill of human that is retained is piloting so in theory they are the pilot. This bleeds into the lines with things like the demon power armors that eventually fuse with the pilot. Are those power armors or are they borgs or something else. Again its a situation where the human no longer has full or even primary control and is permanently melded with their armor.

Really the naruni ship could be as easily argued that it is a power armor as it could a cyborg. One perfectly healthy person walks into the piloting compartment of the vessel at which point the vessel is augmenting and armoring their body. Does the fact they cannot leave mean its not power armor? There are other examples of power armor that has direct mind interfacing if you pilot one of those does that make you a cyborg? There definitely are some edge cases that are very murky waters definition wise.