Dogs and the Supernatural

[Kalinda]

Not to be an @$$ but, why cant dog boys mate with dogs and produce offspring? Im actually laughing while im writing this.

I'm somehow certain that this thought never occurred to KS when he was writing up Dog boys.

Best to just say "NO, BAD GAMER!" then smack the person who thought of it with a rolled up newspaper...

[dark brandon]

Not to be an @$$ but, why cant dog boys mate with dogs and produce offspring? Im actually laughing while im writing this.

I'm somehow certain that this thought never occurred to KS when he was writing up Dog boys.

Best to just say "NO, BAD GAMER!" then smack the person who thought of it with a rolled up newspaper...

In all honesty, i would say dog boys are closer to humans than to dogs now.

[Kalinda]

Not to be an @$$ but, why cant dog boys mate with dogs and produce offspring? Im actually laughing while im writing this.

I'm somehow certain that this thought never occurred to KS when he was writing up Dog boys.

Best to just say "NO, BAD GAMER!" then smack the person who thought of it with a rolled up newspaper...

In all honesty, i would say dog boys are closer to humans than to dogs now.

True, except that a Dog boy can't get a human woman preggers either.

I was about to say that Psi-hounds are a separate species that can only breed with other Psi-hounds, but I just remembered that it says in the CB1 that they can breed with Wolfen. Make of that what you will...

[Killer Cyborg]

Not to be an @$$ but, why cant dog boys mate with dogs and produce offspring? Im actually laughing while im writing this.

I'm somehow certain that this thought never occurred to KS when he was writing up Dog boys.

Best to just say "NO, BAD GAMER!" then smack the person who thought of it with a rolled up newspaper...

In all honesty, i would say dog boys are closer to humans than to dogs now.

True, except that a Dog boy can't get a human woman preggers either.

I was about to say that Psi-hounds are a separate species that can only breed with other Psi-hounds, but I just remembered that it says in the CB1 that they can breed with Wolfen. Make of that what you will...

I'd say that dog-boys can breed with dogs, but not viable offspring. They are too mutated for their offspring to live.
Also, they generally don't find normal dogs attractive.

[Kalinda]

Not to be an @$$ but, why cant dog boys mate with dogs and produce offspring? Im actually laughing while im writing this.

I'm somehow certain that this thought never occurred to KS when he was writing up Dog boys.

Best to just say "NO, BAD GAMER!" then smack the person who thought of it with a rolled up newspaper...

In all honesty, i would say dog boys are closer to humans than to dogs now.

True, except that a Dog boy can't get a human woman preggers either.

I was about to say that Psi-hounds are a separate species that can only breed with other Psi-hounds, but I just remembered that it says in the CB1 that they can breed with Wolfen. Make of that what you will...

I'd say that dog-boys can breed with dogs, but not viable offspring. They are too mutated for their offspring to live.
Also, they generally don't find normal dogs attractive.

That is a good thought. They could conceive, but the fetus would just abort within a few months or be stillborn.

And yeah, I don't think they would find normal dogs appealing. I can also see the jokes about this flying fast and furious. They could be the equivalent to modern day 'Scotsman+sheep jokes.'

[Library Ogre]

What I am trying to get at is how different is a dog from a dog boy. Can a daschund and a collie do MD? yes because they are both dogs even though different breeds. Why isnt a dog boy just a different breed? I can see why one would naturally think that dogs are much more than jus a different breed, but what comes natural isnt always what is.

No. Psi-hounds are very different from their progenitor species, to the point where they are completely incompatible in the reproductive sense.. to the point where the apt comparison isn't between humans and apes, but rather between humans and squirrels.

Dogs lack manipulative digits, or the body structure to take real advantage of them. While dogs can be "smart", no dog can learn mathematics or how to actually read (which Psi-Hounds are capable of, even if they infrequently do it). They're not even the same class anymore... Homocanis Sapiens.

[dark brandon]

In all honesty, i would say dog boys are closer to humans than to dogs now.

Whats ur basis for this? Is there canon[boom] to back it up, or jus ur opinion?

What I am trying to get at is how different is a dog from a dog boy. Can a daschund and a collie do MD? yes because they are both dogs even though different breeds. Why isnt a dog boy just a different breed? I can see why one would naturally think that dogs are much more than jus a different breed, but what comes natural isnt always what is.

A little of both.

I believe in Lonestar It mentions that Dog boys are closer to humans in the description or a story with Bradford or somethign to that comment.

I also think for example, their stats are alot like humans (3D6), tend to act very human. They may be closer to humans than dogs, but they are still different. They are basically a whole new race on par with dbees as kevin states in designer notes.

I think a dog boy is as different from a dog as a human is from a chimp. There is something of a physical similarities, but everything else seems to suggest otherwise.

[dark brandon]

A little of both.

I believe in Lonestar It mentions that Dog boys are closer to humans in the description or a story with Bradford or somethign to that comment.

I also think for example, their stats are alot like humans (3D6), tend to act very human. They may be closer to humans than dogs, but they are still different. They are basically a whole new race on par with dbees as kevin states in designer notes.

AWESOME TEXTUAL CANNON ARGUMENT!!!!!!!!

Thank you very much brandon. I am actually walking away from a discussion satisfied with an answer 100%, a rare thing. I concede defeat. <humbly bows and exits this thread>

Awesome. I'm glad I could help give you a satisfied answer.

[The Galactus Kid]

Did we just witness Dark Brandon get whis yellow belt in Post Fu?

[Tor]

If you're right, and DNA tampering interferes with the power, then the CS would never have bothered to develop dogboys at all.

I don't agree here. The CS fights more than just supernatural creatures who can be damaged by dog bites, and ignoring that, a Dog Boy with a WP sword and a vibro-blade is going to be inflicting more damage (and with a higher reliability of inflicting and avoiding damage) than a dog is. Plus Dog Boys are more intelligent so you can manage them and preserve them longer.

I think the CS probably initially started with dogs, found they were helpful against the supernatural, and this motivated them to make the Dog Boys. Upon discovering that the mutation removed their ability to harm the supernatural with HtH, they still found them useful as expendable foot soldiers who could detect the supernatural (and communicate what they detect via language, which dogs can't) and engage it with vibro-tech and even used ranged weapons.

Heck, considering the flying supernatural beings out there, a dog boy with a laser rifle is going to be a little more useful than a dog unless you have dog cannons to launch your mutts at the nearest gargoyle or dragon.

Even without flight there are often situations where terrain impedes being able to pursue or surround an enemy. A bipedal dog boy with opposable thumbs (and who can use vibro-hooks to aid in their climbing) could pursue a supernatural being hiding in a tree, or up on a pile of rocks, better than some dog can.

Also, seeing as how I am strongly necro-ing this awesome thread that brought to light something I was completely unaware of (making Chaos Earth basically essential for Rifts to understand the world) it's worth noting how much more awesome this makes the Hound-Masters in Dead Reign should they venture into Rifts.

It also makes me wonder, with the way vampires have the ability to summon (and control) canines (also wolves, presumably they also damage supernaturals? dunno) if this is used in vamp vs vamp warfare (would vampires try to wrestle control of each other's dogs away from the other?) and if it's part of how vampires keep other supernatural beings in their territory at bay or from dominating them.

Man didnt evolve from ape, man allegedly evolved from prehsitoric man, which was similar to ape.

Humans are not evolved from apes. We simply have a common ancestor with apes. Saying that we've evolved from apes is like saying that you are descended from your cousin.

Since everyone's getting all biological here, we did evolve from apes, because we ARE apes. Ape is a term that covers all hominoids, which are a form of simian, which are a form of primate.

Hominoids include lesser apes (like gibbons) and greater ones (aka hominids, including us, chimps, gorillas, and orangutans).

Some use "ape" to mean "any hominoid except humans because we're special" but it's a bunch of arbitrary nonsense. Genetically we have more in common with a chimp than a chimp does with a gibbon so there's no valid reason to group them as a category we exclude ourselves from.

Even if we don't accept 'ape' for humans, I'm confident we probably would accept it for the most recent common ancestor of humans and gibbons. I side with Michael Benton's usage of human inclusion though: "The apes, Hominoidea, today include the gibbons and orang-utan ... the gorilla and chimpanzee ... and humans"

In the original Rifts Main Book, it stated that Dog Boys are SAMAS pilots in Lone Star, a point that was contradicted in the Lone Star World Book.

Does Lone Star UTTERLY forbid it? I'm left wondering if there might be secret dog boy SAMAS divisions (perhaps using the older model getting thrown out in favour of the new SUPER models, kind of like how dog boys are getting upgraded from partial MDC armor to old-style Dead Boy armor) or maybe the SAMAS thing was a top secret experiment that they cancelled after Bradford got flack from Prosek for putting too much power in non-human hands.

Biological / Isolation species
A set of actually or potentially interbreeding populations. This is generally the most useful formulation for scientists working with living examples of the higher taxa like mammals, fish, and birds, but meaningless for organisms that do not reproduce sexually.

Since dogs and wolves can interbreed, this would mean that they are the same species by this definition.

I'd favour this interpretation except I'd add the requirement of needing fertile offspring to avoid the whole mule/liger problem so that lions and tigers aren't considered the same species. Pretty sure wolf/dog would produce fertile offspring though.

Magic works off of perception, and people see dogs and wolves as being different. They have different associations with them. It goes along with the "Man's Best Friend" angle that you like. Wolves certainly aren't seen that way, but dogs are.

It makes me wonder how human perception would tie into things though. Do dogs damage the supernatural because of our faith in domesticated breeds? Humans have historically (prior to domestication) had faith in wolves though, and probably less faith in breeds who don't do much or who are human-attackers.

Our love for cats is also great (they helped fight pestilence) and they got worshipped, yet they only harm a selective amount of supernatural creatures, not all of them.

Maybe it's because of dogs being omnivores and not purely carnivores?

a human can't mate with a chimp or other primates.

Im workin hard to disprove that theory

an understandable aspiration

Let's keep in mind folks that Lone Star lets chimps have up to 14 PB, and in TMNT like other animals they get the standard 3d6 (why is Michelangelo prettier than April?)

I'd say that dog-boys can breed with dogs, but not viable offspring. They are too mutated for their offspring to live. Also, they generally don't find normal dogs attractive.

I'd say they're too different to be able to mate. We have a lot more in common with chimps than dog boys do with dogs, all things neutral, and I'm doubtful we could even produce mule-like offspring with them.

As far as generally not finding normal dogs attractive, I can agree... but I expect they do at a slightly higher frequency than humans do, and the fringe elements of humanity seem to manage somehow...

[Pepsi Jedi]

If you're right, and DNA tampering interferes with the power, then the CS would never have bothered to develop dogboys at all.

I don't agree here. The CS fights more than just supernatural creatures who can be damaged by dog bites, and ignoring that, a Dog Boy with a WP sword and a vibro-blade is going to be inflicting more damage (and with a higher reliability of inflicting and avoiding damage) than a dog is. Plus Dog Boys are more intelligent so you can manage them and preserve them longer.

I think the CS probably initially started with dogs, found they were helpful against the supernatural, and this motivated them to make the Dog Boys. Upon discovering that the mutation removed their ability to harm the supernatural with HtH, they still found them useful as expendable foot soldiers who could detect the supernatural (and communicate what they detect via language, which dogs can't) and engage it with vibro-tech and even used ranged weapons.

Thing is, that's not how it happened at all. The CS found the Lone Star Complex almost 100% intact and basically... found the blueprints in there. Dusted things off. Read the instruction manuels and followed the recipe.

a human can't mate with a chimp or other primates.

Im workin hard to disprove that theory

an understandable aspiration

Let's keep in mind folks that Lone Star lets chimps have up to 14 PB, and in TMNT like other animals they get the standard 3d6 (why is Michelangelo prettier than April?)

He's just that cute! lol It's come up before though, that by and large the Palladium PB system is based through human perception of beauty. That's why elves are a bit prettier and octomen are hideous. Thing is, it's not universal, and you get weird abberations, like... Mike being prettier than April.

Remember, the game systems aren't real life. They just try, as best they can, to approximate, real life. Sometimes they fail.

I'd say that dog-boys can breed with dogs, but not viable offspring. They are too mutated for their offspring to live. Also, they generally don't find normal dogs attractive.

I'd say they're too different to be able to mate. We have a lot more in common with chimps than dog boys do with dogs, all things neutral, and I'm doubtful we could even produce mule-like offspring with them.

As far as generally not finding normal dogs attractive, I can agree... but I expect they do at a slightly higher frequency than humans do, and the fringe elements of humanity seem to manage somehow...

Thing is, you're describing fetisisim. Not generality among a species. Sure there are some humans out there that might look at a chimp and think she's cute, but he's going to be considered a freak by 99%+ of the population. I expect the same thing is with dog boys and dogs. Just like a human's not in the monkey house of the zoo going "Oh man... look at the.... tail on that babe" when checking out the monkies. Most dog boys aren't going to see a poodle walking down the street and get hot for fluffy.

[Tor]

Thing is, that's not how it happened at all. The CS found the Lone Star Complex almost 100% intact and basically... found the blueprints in there. Dusted things off. Read the instruction manuels and followed the recipe.

Good point, I was just going off KC's explanation. I guess by 'develope' he might have meant 'put the blueprints into production' rather than 'invent the blueprints'.

It's possible that recognition of dog's anti-supernatural biting abilities is what led to the public acceptance of the program and the incentive to develope that in favour of other animal species, though.

Thing is, you're describing fetisisim. Not generality among a species. Sure there are some humans out there that might look at a chimp and think she's cute, but he's going to be considered a freak by 99%+ of the population. I expect the same thing is with dog boys and dogs. Just like a human's not in the monkey house of the zoo going "Oh man... look at the.... tail on that babe" when checking out the monkies. Most dog boys aren't going to see a poodle walking down the street and get hot for fluffy.

I know, I'm not arguing that dog-boys in general would be doing this as a norm, just that it's probably more likely for a dog to be into said poodle than it is for a human, and also that it would probably be less frowned upon since "they're all animals anyway" to many humans. Though the viewpoint amongst the actual Psi-Hounds and those who openly acknowledge their sentience could be more critical.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Whoa, old thread.

Worth noting that the dogs deal (minuscule) damage to Supernatural Evil rule has not, to my knowledge, appeared in any non-Chaos Earth supplement since we first had this debate. So, Past Josh, this is Future Josh telling you that it's probably only something that was meant for Chaos Earth - or a new idea that never gained much traction.

I still like the flavor of the rule, but it does seem a little ad hoc to me now, years later. Though I like the rule, I don't think it has ever come up in a game. At least not that I can remember.

~ Josh

[slade the sniper]

It's as random and arbitrary as giving cats the ability to Call Lightning.

Cats can Call Lightning? Way cool, I gotta get me a pack of them.

Do you think Thor road into battle at the head of a herd of cats? <hoping I don't get struck down for that one . . .>

AWESOME visual!!

-STS

[Pepsi Jedi]

Wouldn't it be a "Pride" of lightning calling cats being rode by Thor?

[Tor]

A cat can call lightning if it's a demon familiar or if you're playing this RPG.

Johnston enlisted as a drummer in Company D, 3d Vermont Infantry Regiment on May 1, 1862 and was mustered into United States service same day. His father, William Johnston, was a member of Company B of the same regiment.

so yes he counts.

I'm aware he's 'technically' part of the military, but it's not necessarily "soldiering" to play an instrument. Sure you put yourself in danger but... I mean I get that there's support roles but at least with people transporting supplies it's directly related to stopping the enemy. Music is just so indirect. He's basically a bard.