Petition for a Rifts Kick-Starter

[earthhawk]

Hi All:

I've decided that we need to take our energy about the game and give it a focus point. I believe that Rifts is a fantastic setting but needs to be updated to modern standards. I think it's time Rifts gets the attention it deserves. I understand this will not be an easy task, but at the very least we can get the momentum moving forward. Thus I'm asking you, the fans, to support my petition for an official Rifts kickstarter project, where said funds would be used to improve the game and relaunch it to fans old and new. Here it goes.

[Cyber-Knight]

I'd be willing to put in money just as I dropped some money on the Robotech Kickstarter, but as with anything, it depends entirely on who's working on it and what the final product could potentially look like.

[Bill]

I'd be willing to put in money just as I dropped some money on the Robotech Kickstarter, but as with anything, it depends entirely on who's working on it and what the final product could potentially look like.

For such a campaign to be successful, it would be at least a year out to give the people behind it time to line up writers, artists, and work out the special edition logistics. Save your pennies, I will be.

[Killer Cyborg]

IF Palladium ever managed to clean up the system, they'd lose at least half of their current customers... But they'd stand to gain a heck of a lot of NEW customers... But only if they did a really good job.
And I lack confidence that the staff that created the current system even COULD do much better than they've got now.

Still, this is the most productive idea we've seen on the "fix the system" front, so I voted Yes.
I think it'd take a couple million dollars to do it right, but if the fans could come up with the money, it's worth a shot.

[Vrykolas2k]

What do you consider to be "modern standards"?

[Dunia]

Considering that it will most likely be a disaster I would not wish to give any money until I see what changes are made and how a "modernized" system would look like. Although I voted yes, I do not wish to pay for a kick starter without some serious look at how the product will be in the end, as I know that if this will be another fiasco, I will stop buying Rifts permanently.

Not be bashing PB, but their success ratio at this things are not the best, nor is their successes with kick starters/MI's. I do not wish to put out any money until I know that the products have already gone to the printers (this is the most early point that I will ever rust PB with my money)

[J_Danger]

I'd want a Core rulebook, which covers conversions from old book nonsense in addition to clarifying the rules. Book of Magic 2 would be nice, where they scoop up all the bizarro magics from other books and even other book lines (fleshsculpting, etc...)

And the Rifts: World Atlas. I'd pay for that.

[Bill]

What do you consider to be "modern standards"?

I think the actual shape of what would be produced remains largely out of our hands. Ultimately, only KS or his designee could really say what a new and improved Megaversal Engine would look like. That said, I would hope for a more coherent organization of material, rules that are consistent and logical throughout, a minimal degree of arbitrariness, and greater effort to make the setting material evenly distributed across the world/several related dimensions.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

I'd want a Core rulebook, which covers conversions from old book nonsense in addition to clarifying the rules. Book of Magic 2 would be nice, where they scoop up all the bizarro magics from other books and even other book lines (fleshsculpting, etc...)

And the Rifts: World Atlas. I'd pay for that.

This would be how I'd go about it, too. No need to re-release an updated version of every book like so many other companies do.

[Cyber-Knight]

Eh, conversion rules are a total waste of space for a core rulebook. Part of the goal is to bring in new players. The last thing you need is to saddle them with a book where a large chunk of it features holdovers from the old rules. If there's a conversion guide, it should be a PDF download, but a brand new core book should be entirely about the new rules and any revamps to the setting, not rehashing the old rules.

IF Palladium ever managed to clean up the system, they'd lose at least half of their current customers... But they'd stand to gain a heck of a lot of NEW customers... But only if they did a really good job.

And I lack confidence that the staff that created the current system even COULD do much better than they've got now.

Yeah, any new system would probably require people experienced with game design but who probably never worked for Palladium before, although maybe some of them can be past or present employees who've been involved with it but have also worked on other systems (For instance, I enjoyed CJ Carella's work on the Buffy, the Vampire Slayer RPG. It was vastly different to the Palladium system and was pretty good all around. At the very least I'd be interested in hearing his thoughts about how to build a rules set for Rifts from the ground up).

[DhAkael]

Thing is; if you completely re-write the system to say points buy (Exalted, tri-stat) or "Zen" (diceless Re; 'Amber') you kill the game.
No ands iffs buts or maybes; it will DIE.
It needs to be codified, cleaned up and be COMPLETE in one book: skills, OCC's [none of these variations on a theme with completely different Exp tables] and PROPER basic systems for Bots & power armours [re; "WhereTF are the optic systems...Triax and Japan?!?"].
No more Cut & Paste of ERROR heavy text; take the time to go over it with a fine tooth comb and make sure everything lines up.

The game SYSTEM can work, but it needs to be definitive and all in one place.
I refuse to give these people any money in advance UNLESS garuntees (Unlike, it seems, the NG books) are given that the streamlining of Rifts and PBooks megaversal system is given priority ONE. as in "This gets done FIRST".

Addendum: also none of this re-do / reprint previous stuff. An "Edition Conversion book", provided at small cost or FREE as .PDF to use previously printed material with streamlined rules set.

Sadly this will never occur unless Kevin allows for POSITIVE change. He has to stop being George Lucas and micro-managing.

[Cyber-Knight]

Thing is; if you completely re-write the system to say points buy (Exalted, tri-stat) or "Zen" (diceless Re; 'Amber') you kill the game.

No ands iffs buts or maybes; it will DIE.

Disagree. From what I gather, most people don't play Rifts because they have any great love for the system. Most play Rifts in spite of the game system, because they like the setting. You apparently feel differently, but you seem to be one of the few exceptions to the above rule. So tossing that system aside would probably come as a great relief to a lot of Rifts fans, past and present, if the new system is a far better improvement, and it'll go a long way towards attracting new players.

I also disagree that the system can be cleaned up. It's a colossal mess right down to its core. The whole thing needs to be chucked in its entirety and a wholly new system built from the ground up. At least in my opinion, anyway.

For such a campaign to be successful, it would be at least a year out to give the people behind it time to line up writers, artists, and work out the special edition logistics. Save your pennies, I will be.

Yep. I'm not going to save my pennies, because I doubt it'd ever happen, but if it ever did and I liked the look of it then they could definitely count on my support. Of course, that all depends on the current game rules taking a bow. I'm really not interested in Palladium Rules 1.5 or even 2.0. But whatever. In the meantime I'll wait for Robotech to come out. I want my free Veritech's already.

[DhAkael]

Thing is; if you completely re-write the system to say points buy (Exalted, tri-stat) or "Zen" (diceless Re; 'Amber') you kill the game.

No ands iffs buts or maybes; it will DIE.

Disagree. From what I gather, most people don't play Rifts because they have any great love for the system. Most play Rifts in spite of the game system, because they like the setting. You apparently feel differently, but you seem to be one of the few exceptions to the above rule. So tossing that system aside would probably come as a great relief to a lot of Rifts fans, past and present, if the new system is a far better improvement, and it'll go a long way towards attracting new players.

I also disagree that the system can be cleaned up. It's a colossal mess right down to its core. The whole thing needs to be chucked in its entirety and a wholly new system built from the ground up. At least in my opinion, anyway.

Yeps...YOUR opinion.
We'll agree to strongly disagree (re; I HATE White-mangey mutt games... with passion bordering on pathelogical).
THOUGH, something like the old interlock used in Cberpunk 2020 or Mekton Zeta COULD work. But again it will kill the game and make everything already printed be worthless.
Sorta like D&D 1st & 2nd ed. Which is why I ditched that game line when they went 3-ed.

basicly I feel people are just being whiney little...well, never mind.
Never had a problem with the game system; just that it's scatter shot across nearly 2 dozen books.

[Cyber-Knight]

Yep, although you have to admit that I'm far from alone in that. And the Palladium system is one of the great big turn-offs for anyone who might otherwise be interested in checking out Rifts or any other Palladium RPG.

(re; I HATE White-mangey mutt games... with passion bordering on pathelogical).

I have no idea what this means.

basicly I feel people are just being whiney little...well, never mind.

That's fair. But these are criticisms which people have had for 20+ years. Either they're all whiny or maybe, just maybe, a great many of them are raising valid points. Shutting ones ears to them certainly doesn't make them invalid. And given that Palladium isn't exactly skyrocketing to the top of the RPG industry, maybe those are criticisms which should be considered?

[Giant2005]

I'd like to claim to be sensible enough to need more information to make a solid stance on this (What constitutes "Modern standards" mostly).
But Kickstarters are a lot of fun! So to hell with rationality, Kickstarter away!

[Giant2005]

these are criticisms which people have had for 20+ years. Either they're all whiny or maybe, just maybe, a great many of them are raising valid points. Shutting ones ears to them certainly doesn't make them invalid. And given that Palladium isn't exactly skyrocketing to the top of the RPG industry, maybe those are criticisms which should be considered?

What exactly are the criticisms?
Is it just the fact that the rules are scattered all over the place? Character creation being too in depth?
Is there more to it?

[earthhawk]

Please do not let this forum topic get into the typical realm of comparing game systems, or listing criticisms, etc... I'm simply trying to see if we can get a kick-starter going. If you feel the need to to do the above formentioned please post it in a different topic.

Thank you.

[Cyber-Knight]

I'd like to claim to be sensible enough to need more information to make a solid stance on this (What constitutes "Modern standards" mostly).

But Kickstarters are a lot of fun! So to hell with rationality, Kickstarter away!

Nobody has claimed that they'd be willing to throw their money away blind. Just that they'd be willing to consider it if someone were to pursue it and the final project looked promising.

What exactly are the criticisms?
Is it just the fact that the rules are scattered all over the place? Character creation being too in depth?
Is there more to it?

This isn't the time or the place for that discussion, as earthhawk points out. That and I find it utterly hard to believe that, after racking up thousands of posts, not once have you heard any of the criticisms that you leveled at the system. And if you haven't, well, I'm not going to be the one to spoil your virgin ears.

[smashed]

Didn't vote as I feel the options are too limited. I think putting together a kick-starter to overhaul the system is a bad idea. To be fair to the contributors KS would need to stop working on anything else, which would kill Palladium's already slow release schedule. Pretty much putting the company's future as an RPG company all onto one product. I generally feel that before a kick-starters is done a book should be completely written and edited, at most leaving layout and art to be done. Especially for a company with Palladium's track record.

I personally think they are better off slowly revamping their system behind the scenes while continuing to focus on more content books. Which is hopefully what they are doing are putting up all those changes threads.

[Bill]

I disagree with you, smashed. It would force the company to bring on fresh hands, which I think could only be a good thing.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Voted "No" cause I don't want things to get worse by changing things to the not fixed RUE standard. I'm not going to pay even more money for books that are not fixed of the stupid things that were "supposed to have"/"should have been" been fixed with RUE.

[Subjugator]

I'd love to see the rules cleaned up...completely.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Panomas: I want clarifications. I don't care if the rules change, but I want each condition to mean something specific, and have us know where it starts and where it stops. If perception is an ability with bonuses, I want to know under what conditions it is used, how one develops it, and how to gauge the difficulty.

A big problem is the lack of consistency from one game to the next. In other systems, you can go to a con and know for an absolute fact you'll have the same rules experience from one con to the next. I'd LOVE to be able to do that with Palladium.

/Sub

[Sureshot]

I voted yes on the condition:

That the company as a whole approaches the porject to at least streamline and make the game a cohesive whole. I would prefer a new edtion. Yet understand that may not happen. No RUE or any similar style of revisions. Do it properly or don't do it all.

Expect to alienate some fans. That is unavoidable. I know of some people who refuse to play Pathfinder and prefer 3.5 Even though PF is just 3.5. with some minor house rules. Present a rule to the fans. If 80% or more agree to it include it in a revised/streamlined edition.

The project has to be given top priority. Or at least a lot of it. So no repeat of the NG debacle.

If possible give the book a modern look in terms of art and appearence. It does not have to be full color or glossy paper. Yet it can't look like your standard PB product. Fans who invested are not imo going to be happy with something that looks dated compared to modern games. Espcially when it was Kickstarted. Again PB may lose some fans because of the cost. Well too bad. PB can't keep producing product at lower production values because some fans in the hobby can't afford it. PB needs to think of themselves first.

Advertise, Advertise Advertise. I can't stress this enough. Use some of the money from Kickstarter to do some proper advertising. Word of mouth just does not cut it anymore in this digital and social media age imo. As well ask for feedback from outside of the website. Otherwise it comes across as a company simply doing a echo chamber experiment.

That being said my vote will probably have been a waste. After all this is something they should have looked into when they were in better financial condition. We have a better chance of the Middle East suddenly converting to Christianity before we see any new edition.

[Marrowlight]

Present a rule to the fans. If 80% or more agree to it include it in a revised/streamlined edition.

Stopped here. I'll finish the rest 'cause you're cool and all, but stopped here because I just had to say - hell to the no. No, no, no, and hell to the no. I 1 billion percent Palladium needs more staff, and I 1 trillion percent believe Kevin needs to loosen the chokehold he has on oversight just a lil to allow for some new voices to put their mark on the world....but the thought of a by committee Palladium Game just fills me with absolute and genuine horror. Love yah man....but hell to the no.

[Sureshot]

Look if you try and get everyone to agree on a rule that is just not going to happen. Development will grind to a halt. They will never get a 100% approval rate on most rules/streamlining/updating. It's simply impossible. It's the nature of the human beast. They will lose fans if they even implement a streamling. As some fans want nothing to change. PB needs to go with rules that the majority approve of the fans approve of. Not the totality of their fans. Better design by committee and get some actual work done. Or try to please everyone and get nothing done. Some of your voting yes to a kickstarter and expecting every rule change/streamlining to be parroved 100% well get back to me in 20-30 years when the game actually gets done.

[zaccheus]

I voted yes. I'll always vote for more rifts stuff. I pretty much started roleplaying with rifts. BTS really but rifts came shortly after and it really captured my imagination as a kid and would love to see how it might evolve especially if it meant higher quality books with color interior art

If they do another kickstarter though the smart money would be on a video game. Looks like a new gen of consoles is around the corner and if they made a multi platform game for the new systems it could be huge. Maybe partner with the team that made saints row the third or red dead redemption, maybe even Bethesda. I think that style of open world gaming say in the chi town burbs could be an amazing game

[Marrowlight]

OK, aside from the one bit, I'm pretty much on board with all else in the post - though with one caveat.

If possible give the book a modern look in terms of art and appearence. It does not have to be full color or glossy paper. Yet it can't look like your standard PB product. Fans who invested are not imo going to be happy with something that looks dated compared to modern games. Espcially when it was Kickstarted. Again PB may lose some fans because of the cost.

While there are certainly those that do all this without the price reaching levels of ridiculous, when a Main Book crosses the $40 threshold because of all the ultimately unnecessary pomp and circumstance, imo, it and those involved in it can burn in hell. I'm all for making Palladium books not look like a textbook from the late 70s, but not if we're talking $50 - $70 main books. Otherwise, sure, put a lil lipstick and a wonderbra on that sad lil puppy.

[Shark_Force]

i dunno. i like the *idea* of the megaversal rule system getting cleaned up, organized, clarified, updated, standardized and maybe even in some cases, completely rewritten or added to.

but i'd first have to be sold on the fact that whatever they come up with will actually get all of that stuff done in a reasonable time frame, and that is a crazy amount of work. i mean, you would need a *lot* of money to cover the expenses... PB would probably have to essentially shut down for quite a while to figure everything out, just for research, and hire on (and train) a bunch of new staff members.

so basically... i would potentially want to see this, provided they did all of the research first, and planned it out very well, and provided they could convince me of the fact that they have done all the research and planning and actually have a good idea of what it's going to take, and of what needs to get done to get everything working together nicely.

and also, they'd have to convince me that kevin would ever produce that kind of system, which i am not convinced of at all... i don't think kevin really views it as being important that rules are written to be understood in one specific way, or that things should be handled in a standardized manner. i think he very much believes in "seat of the pants" GMing, and that every group should be tearing the rules apart and rebuilding them to fit their needs in the first place. i could be wrong, of course, but that's the impression i get based on the product he puts out.

[SmilingJack]

I emphatically endorse this

A resurgence of rifts is certainly well deserved

Count me in

I'd gladly contribute to the cause!

[flatline]

If they're going to start over with a new (hopefully improved) system, give us a new setting, too.

If it is well received, then they can totally cash in by re-releasing Rifts and all existing Rifts material converted to the new system. Or, if they are more charitable, they can simply provide conversions as free (or relatively cheap) downloads.

But there's no reason to risk Rifts unless the new system is a success.

--flatline

[Subjugator]

...or they could do both. I'd re-buy.

/Sub

[Sureshot]

While there are certainly those that do all this without the price reaching levels of ridiculous, when a Main Book crosses the $40 threshold because of all the ultimately unnecessary pomp and circumstance, imo, it and those involved in it can burn in hell. I'm all for making Palladium books not look like a textbook from the late 70s, but not if we're talking $50 - $70 main books. Otherwise, sure, put a lil lipstick and a wonderbra on that sad lil puppy.

40$ is imo the minmum most hardcover with decent production values go for today. I get that some don't want to spend too much money on a rpg. If you expect to get tommorow rpg products now at yesterdays prices. Is simply not going to happen. Imo one cannot ask PB to create a potenetial kickstarter than expect them to undersell the product at a loss. No owner of any company with a shred of business sense is going to do. Expect any updated/revison/streamlined product to cost a decent amount. Otheriwise if we the fans start putting a ton of conditions on what PB can or cannot do it's a exercise in futulity imo.

The AD&D 2E reprints cost me about 130$ with fast shipping. Sure I could have bought some cheaper original ones on Amazon. Yet have found that too many sellers how shall we say embellish the condition of the products they sell. What listed as very good come across as acceptable to below that. I bought a used 2E Forgotten Realms core hardcover. I had to cover it with map tack. I felt like the guy working on the six million dollar man (yes I'm dating myself). With the voice over from the show. " I can rebuild this used rpg book. I have the map tack technlogy". The reprints are gorgeous. Crisp and new. Either way money will be spent.

[Bill]

Okay, naysayers, let me tell you why I think this is not only a good idea, but even a great idea. Exalted 3rd Edition is at half a million dollars. That's more money than most RPG titles EVER bring in and its for a game that hasn't had the longevity of Rifts. Rifts is one of the legendary games that new players traditionally cut their proverbial teeth with, and because of that I think we'd see much greater support for a Kickstarter than the above poll would imply. Even if Palladium failed to deliver a new system, or ended up producing something that didn't correct the myriad issues that the current rules exhibit, a successful Kickstarter could provide publicity and reenergize the fan base in a way that little else could.

Make no mistake, I want the next Rifts core book I buy to be nigh indistinguishable from Ultimate Edition. I'm willing to admit that a Kickstarter project would be worthwhile for even less revolutionary revision though.

[Galroth]

I'd be willing to put in some money, but only if one of the things they used that money for was a professional editor. The system itself wouldn't be half as bad if it were easy to locate information you were looking for, perhaps via a glossary or readable Table of Contents. Stop saving money via cutting and pasting, it's got to be costing more in lost sales than it saves off of the front end.

[earthhawk]

In all honesty you can't expect them [Palladium] to do the work of revamping the game without asking for money. However, to curtail some of the cost perhaps asking fans to submit a Rifts manuscript containing updated game mechanics could work. This could be a contest where fans submit their ideas based on the criteria that Kevin feels embody the "vision" of Rifts.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Some people just get lost in the sandbox of rifts and need the narrow path of other popular games. Personally I love the sandbox with little rules
All I need is character creation rules, combat rules and any other rules I may see fit to add it or remove when it's not working for me or slows down the story with because of a rule or two.

[flatline]

Some people just get lost in the sandbox of rifts and need the narrow path of other popular games. Personally I love the sandbox with little rules
All I need is character creation rules, combat rules and any other rules I may see fit to add it or remove when it's not working for me or slows down the story with because of a rule or two.

I think this is true. Pathfinder character generation feels like you're making a videogame character. Nothing feels open ended. One thing Palladium does well is that when you're playing, you don't feel constrained to an enumerated list of options.

--flatline

[FatherMorpheus]

I think this is larger than Rifts. Honestly the entire Palladium System needs to be updated, revised, edited. All of it needs a massive revamp.

Heck, if we had a kick starter called 'Create and Fund Palladium Revision, Editor, Consistency and Play Tester group' I would pay $100 for the initial kick start, perhaps $100 a year for the next 5 years if they actually deliver an updated, revised, consistent and play tested revision.

So that would be $500 I would be willing to put forth over the course of 5 years. How much would all of you pony up to the plate? When I think about the hours I spend on Rifts, it would work out to perhaps a $1 an hour over 5 years. If that much.

[Killer Cyborg]

Some people just get lost in the sandbox of rifts and need the narrow path of other popular games. Personally I love the sandbox with little rules
All I need is character creation rules, combat rules and any other rules I may see fit to add it or remove when it's not working for me or slows down the story with because of a rule or two.

I think this is true. Pathfinder character generation feels like you're making a videogame character. Nothing feels open ended. One thing Palladium does well is that when you're playing, you don't feel constrained to an enumerated list of options.

--flatline

I actually find quite the opposite. in Rifts I hate the sense that in the end, most of my characters are going to end up the same. In Pathfinder however, I find great exuberance in the numerous builds that can come out of just a single class (not including any of the delicate arts of multi-classing). In fact, I find that in Rifts I just can't accomplish the character concepts that I want.

What the heck kind of character concepts do you have that can't be accomplished in Rifts...?

[Jay05]

Some people just get lost in the sandbox of rifts and need the narrow path of other popular games. Personally I love the sandbox with little rules
All I need is character creation rules, combat rules and any other rules I may see fit to add it or remove when it's not working for me or slows down the story with because of a rule or two.

I think this is true. Pathfinder character generation feels like you're making a videogame character. Nothing feels open ended. One thing Palladium does well is that when you're playing, you don't feel constrained to an enumerated list of options.

--flatline

I actually find quite the opposite. in Rifts I hate the sense that in the end, most of my characters are going to end up the same. In Pathfinder however, I find great exuberance in the numerous builds that can come out of just a single class (not including any of the delicate arts of multi-classing). In fact, I find that in Rifts I just can't accomplish the character concepts that I want.

What the heck kind of character concepts do you have that can't be accomplished in Rifts...?

I was thinking the same thing! LOL

[Damian Magecraft]

Present a rule to the fans. If 80% or more agree to it include it in a revised/streamlined edition.

Stopped here. I'll finish the rest 'cause you're cool and all, but stopped here because I just had to say - hell to the no. No, no, no, and hell to the no. I 1 billion percent Palladium needs more staff, and I 1 trillion percent believe Kevin needs to loosen the chokehold he has on oversight just a lil to allow for some new voices to put their mark on the world....but the thought of a by committee Palladium Game just fills me with absolute and genuine horror. Love yah man....but hell to the no.

Gotta agree with marrowlight on this...
There is an old adage that applies here.

Too many cooks spoil the soup.

[slade the sniper]

I vote yes. I would kick in up to $200 or so bucks for some/all new art, a streamlined character generation process (not easier, just all the rules in sequential order), LESS OCC's with more MOS options, all the equipment in one place, some NICE atlas style maps, hard cover, and decent typesetting on shiny gloss paper.

The rules don't need to be rewritten, merely re-ordered and made more definitive.

And while I do love the "old skool" feel of PB...WOTC really did up the standards on what a RPG book could be...I want that standard, damnit!

-STS

[smashed]

No offense, but it sounds like you succeeded in creating your character concept (stealthy sniper) he just failed in his goal.

[FatherMorpheus]

Think about this: What about all the money currently invested in books that are currently in print; I guess PB should just take it in the shorts huh?

Absolutely not, every time a publisher of RPGs publishes a new edition there are people who don't want to change. And those people often times want the original edition. So until inventory is run out, they will keep selling them.

Not to mention, if you perform correct inventory management it is possible to turn off the previous edition print runs in favor of the new updated ones. I'm sure they do that now, hell in just about every 'Palladium Weekly Update' there is another book that has just come back into print.

[smashed]

Okay, naysayers, let me tell you why I think this is not only a good idea, but even a great idea. Exalted 3rd Edition is at half a million dollars. That's more money than most RPG titles EVER bring in and its for a game that hasn't had the longevity of Rifts. Rifts is one of the legendary games that new players traditionally cut their proverbial teeth with, and because of that I think we'd see much greater support for a Kickstarter than the above poll would imply. Even if Palladium failed to deliver a new system, or ended up producing something that didn't correct the myriad issues that the current rules exhibit, a successful Kickstarter could provide publicity and reenergize the fan base in a way that little else could.

Make no mistake, I want the next Rifts core book I buy to be nigh indistinguishable from Ultimate Edition. I'm willing to admit that a Kickstarter project would be worthwhile for even less revolutionary revision though.

The difference between this and what the OP seems to be going for is that the Exalted kickstarter was for raising funds for publishing a spiffed out version of the completed/nearly completed 3rd edition rules book while the Palladium one would need to raise the funds to keep the company going while they develop a new edition.

[Marrowlight]

No offense, but it sounds like you succeeded in creating your character concept (stealthy sniper) he just failed in his goal.

To me, it sounds like the steps the PRules take to allow for longevity of PCs at the cost of realism is a double edged sword and overly lengthens the lifespans of NPCs as well.

This is why I like Mook Rules.

[kaid]

No offense, but it sounds like you succeeded in creating your character concept (stealthy sniper) he just failed in his goal.

To me, it sounds like the steps the PRules take to allow for longevity of PCs at the cost of realism is a double edged sword and overly lengthens the lifespans of NPCs as well.

This is why I like Mook Rules.

One other thing to note is most people are not wearing their fully buttoned up EBA 100% of the time especially if they are in their camp. If you are a patient sniper wait for your target to go to the chow hall any non armored part of the body is pretty much instant kill with an MDC rifle.

Also given that lasers are invisible and noiseless it would be pretty easy for a sniper stalking a base to kill somebody and move on and hide and strike again later since there is no muzzle flash or visible indication of where the shot came from. Given the damage an MDC beam does to unarmored bodies there would not be much left from the body to even determine basic direction of the assault.

Also even with the GI joe rule which most GM's I have played with only apply to PC's given you are shooting from long range with a invisible silent beam you should have your full alotment of melee actions to use before anybody can react to what is happening one shot with any good laser rifle should be enough to destroy the MDC of all but the heaviest EBA and then the next shot kills.

[zaccheus]

No offense, but it sounds like you succeeded in creating your character concept (stealthy sniper) he just failed in his goal.

Well I wrote a wonderful concept, and you're right in that that was successful. However, the transportation into the actual game had my character failing at what I think is a simple task so that reads as a failed concept to me. Semantics aside though, it is not my fault as a player that sniping doesn't work, it is the fault of the shoddy system mechanics.

Personally on this one I would put all the blame on the GM. This sort of thing needs to be house ruled. I allow one shot assassination type kills even when the target is in EBA or is an MDC creature, and the way I balance it is simply once a PC uses that type of ability it is now fair game to be used on the group. Basically a kind of metagame karma. Therefore players only use said skills when completely necessary (necessary either for them to succeed or for their character concept). It's a bit off topic though, just thought I'd put in my 2 cents since it's a fairly interesting discussion

[Marrowlight]

No offense, but it sounds like you succeeded in creating your character concept (stealthy sniper) he just failed in his goal.

To me, it sounds like the steps the PRules take to allow for longevity of PCs at the cost of realism is a double edged sword and overly lengthens the lifespans of NPCs as well.

This is why I like Mook Rules.

One other thing to note is most people are not wearing their fully buttoned up EBA 100% of the time especially if they are in their camp. If you are a patient sniper wait for your target to go to the chow hall any non armored part of the body is pretty much instant kill with an MDC rifle.

Also given that lasers are invisible and noiseless it would be pretty easy for a sniper stalking a base to kill somebody and move on and hide and strike again later since there is no muzzle flash or visible indication of where the shot came from. Given the damage an MDC beam does to unarmored bodies there would not be much left from the body to even determine basic direction of the assault.

None of that has anything to do with what I said.

Also even with the GI joe rule which most GM's I have played with only apply to PC's given you are shooting from long range with a invisible silent beam you should have your full alotment of melee actions to use before anybody can react to what is happening one shot with any good laser rifle should be enough to destroy the MDC of all but the heaviest EBA and then the next shot kills.

Well, the guy getting shot certainly gets to react. And assuming half damage (random rolls and all) per shot, even a Medium MDC helm should be able to take 2 shots on a 4D6 weapon, unless my memory is waaaaay off. And a lvl 1 with HtH assassin is pretty much out of actions after 2 aimed shots.