Stone Magic?

[Bill]

Just curious, has stone magic recieved any further attention since Atlantis, 15 years ago? Anything in the Rifter? Any ambitious lapidary enthusiasts write up more gem powers and post them on the interwebz?

[Akashic Soldier]

I have a ley line walker in my PC party who gets stoned, does that count?

[Armorlord]

Just curious, has stone magic recieved any further attention since Atlantis, 15 years ago? Anything in the Rifter? Any ambitious lapidary enthusiasts write up more gem powers and post them on the interwebz?

Not that I'm aware of off hand.
Thinking about it, Stone Master does seem like it hasn't gotten much love considering just how important they are.

[Bill]

Just curious, has stone magic recieved any further attention since Atlantis, 15 years ago? Anything in the Rifter? Any ambitious lapidary enthusiasts write up more gem powers and post them on the interwebz?

Not that I'm aware of off hand.
Thinking about it, Stone Master does seem like it hasn't gotten much love considering just how important they are.

I'm putting together one as a pregen for my weekly demo. They're kind of a rarity for Rifts magic users in that they are complete at first level, knowing everything that they can possibly know about their brand of magic, and they just get better at using it as they advance. I kind of thought that would make them tough to write more stuff for, but I figured I'd look around just in case. If Atlantis ever gets an upgrade, like Vampire Kingdoms, it might be a good idea to rewrite the class to address this issue.

[flatline]

They're more of an NPC OCC. I don't know how well they'd work as a player character.

Let us know what kind of success you have with it.

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

There's supposed to be some in Lemuria, should we ever get it. Not sure how much or what.

[Ravenwing]

I have a ley line walker in my PC party who gets stoned, does that count?

Lol, I have a Ley Line Walker that gets toasty quite abit. Which is bad as right now our GM is trying to get us involved in the Anti-slave movement in Atlantis.
But Ole' Spirit just ain't having any of that, he gets stoned, and wonders why everyones all angry.

[Nightmask]

They're more of an NPC OCC. I don't know how well they'd work as a player character.

Let us know what kind of success you have with it.

--flatline

I'm not seeing why you think that, their powers let them produce some nice fortifications when needed and draw upon a number of gem-powers depending on what they have available. Plus they're no less effective at handling a weapon or learning how to use things like power armor than any vagabond or scholar.

[flatline]

They're more of an NPC OCC. I don't know how well they'd work as a player character.

Let us know what kind of success you have with it.

--flatline

I'm not seeing why you think that, their powers let them produce some nice fortifications when needed and draw upon a number of gem-powers depending on what they have available. Plus they're no less effective at handling a weapon or learning how to use things like power armor than any vagabond or scholar.

Gem powers destroy the gems after some number of uses, so they are expensive to use and require a reliable supply of gems.

The other powers (carry stone, shape stone, sense supernatural beings in the earth) just don't seem like the types of powers that would appeal to a player so I lump it in the category of "OCCs that serve a purpose that probably doesn't appeal to players" like the millenium tree druids from England. That's just my opinion.

--flatline

[Bill]

New as in expanding/revising the old material or as in yet another elementally biased caster? The former I would love to see, the latter I can do without.

[G]

Gem powers destroy the gems after some number of uses, so they are expensive to use and require a reliable supply of gems.

The other powers (carry stone, shape stone, sense supernatural beings in the earth) just don't seem like the types of powers that would appeal to a player so I lump it in the category of "OCCs that serve a purpose that probably doesn't appeal to players" like the millenium tree druids from England. That's just my opinion.

--flatline

It costs money to repair GB armor and its hard to find someone to do so, does that stop people from playing GBs? It costs money to stock mini missiles does that stop people? IRMSS cost money and only have 4 uses. My stone master was not overly powerful, balanced and the groups healer. Its a very playable class. Of all the classes, it comes in as one of the richest, and easiest to settle down and enjoy the good life...which not a lot of other people can do on RIFTS earth. If you want a game based out of a city, everyone on RIFTS earth is bending over backwards to give you more than the last person for it to be there city. Someone once estimated 250,000 credits a week as pay for a stone master, I don't see a problem buying gems. Plus, its nice to have warrior concubines and having NPCs give all the other PCs instructions that you are to be protected above all else is priceless. As for damage:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=127749

No the stone master has not been updated, nor any new gem powers printed.

[Shark_Force]

you have to have a 18,000 lb block of stone handy to throw at someone. those typically aren't just lying around.

and frankly, in almost any situation other than building a pyramid, i'd rather have a glitter boy than a stone master in the group. there are ways to solve the glitter boy's problems much more readily than solving the stone master's problems. the stone master has a poor spell selection which costs large amounts of money every time they use it, and it would almost always be better to have any other spellcasting OCC in the group instead.

they're good at making pyramids. at pretty near anything else, they're just not very good.

[Killer Cyborg]

you have to have a 18,000 lb block of stone handy to throw at someone. those typically aren't just lying around.

Just carry it with you.

[Akashic Soldier]

you have to have a 18,000 lb block of stone handy to throw at someone. those typically aren't just lying around.

Just carry it with you.

Is it within their ability to uproot a large part of the street?

[Killer Cyborg]

you have to have a 18,000 lb block of stone handy to throw at someone. those typically aren't just lying around.

Just carry it with you.

Is it within their ability to uproot a large part of the street?

Nope. Asphalt isn't technically stone, for the most part.
And if the street is cobble stone, they'd have to grab one at a time.

But man, if a Stone Master bought a stone golem, they could have ready ammunition with them at all times!
And nobody would expect it.
And the thing would regenerate afterward.

[Nightmask]

you have to have a 18,000 lb block of stone handy to throw at someone. those typically aren't just lying around.

and frankly, in almost any situation other than building a pyramid, i'd rather have a glitter boy than a stone master in the group. there are ways to solve the glitter boy's problems much more readily than solving the stone master's problems. the stone master has a poor spell selection which costs large amounts of money every time they use it, and it would almost always be better to have any other spellcasting OCC in the group instead.

they're good at making pyramids. at pretty near anything else, they're just not very good.

The Glitter Boy's combat rating tends to make it preferable to most OCC, since the Body Fixer, Cyber Doc, Rogue Scientist, Operator, or especially the Vagabond don't come with a powerful suit of power armor. Meanwhile the Stone Master can be just as combat effective as the Body Fixer, Operator, and the rest and having magical abilities that can be useful out of combat as well. His WP-Energy Rifle is just as effective as that of the Glitter Boy or Special Forces OCC's WP-Energy Rifle, as are any of his other skills when known by him or by the Glitter Boy (other than that specialized to the Glitter Boy). Stone Masters can contribute as much as anyone else to a game.

[Bill]

I agree with Nightmask. The class is more of a scholar adventurer than a dedicated magic user and, given that they only pay the cost to activate the gem once to gain the power for 1 minute per level, stone masters are a little more effective than you might be giving them credit for. That's a lot of fire balls for 20 PPE.

[Armorlord]

you have to have a 18,000 lb block of stone handy to throw at someone. those typically aren't just lying around.

Just carry it with you.

I swear I've heard a story of a group that traveled around on a slab of stone like that, I forget how they made it work in the long run though.

[Nightmask]

There is mention of magic items that were crafted with Stone Magic, which means either the writer didn't read the write-up on Stone Magic or else the write-up is incomplete and the OCC carries with it more than what we've been presented.

[Bill]

I prefer to think of it as an opportunity for expansion.

[Shark_Force]

I agree with Nightmask. The class is more of a scholar adventurer than a dedicated magic user and, given that they only pay the cost to activate the gem once to gain the power for 1 minute per level, stone masters are a little more effective than you might be giving them credit for. That's a lot of fire balls for 20 PPE.

fire ball is one of the least useful types of attack spells, and in any case that hinges upon the interpretation that you get the power to use whatever it is the stone does as often as you want for the duration, which i don't agree with at all (you get one use, and if that use has a duration, it gets the duration described - unless you also interpret it to mean that if you use armor of ithan the stone mage can just walk around passing armor of ithan to everyone they meet, etc).

and in any case, that still leaves the stone magic with a brutally short list of spells which are largely unimpressive. there are a couple of decent attack spells, a pretty reasonable selection of defense spells, and precious little in the way of utility. and they're still relying on gems instead of simply being able to cast spells like everyone else. and those few actual decent spells require extremely expensive gems to cast, unlike almost any other caster who gets to do it for free.

they're good for making pyramids (and, admittedly, other stone structures). that's pretty much it.

[Nightmask]

I agree with Nightmask. The class is more of a scholar adventurer than a dedicated magic user and, given that they only pay the cost to activate the gem once to gain the power for 1 minute per level, stone masters are a little more effective than you might be giving them credit for. That's a lot of fire balls for 20 PPE.

fire ball is one of the least useful types of attack spells, and in any case that hinges upon the interpretation that you get the power to use whatever it is the stone does as often as you want for the duration, which i don't agree with at all (you get one use, and if that use has a duration, it gets the duration described - unless you also interpret it to mean that if you use armor of ithan the stone mage can just walk around passing armor of ithan to everyone they meet, etc).

and in any case, that still leaves the stone magic with a brutally short list of spells which are largely unimpressive. there are a couple of decent attack spells, a pretty reasonable selection of defense spells, and precious little in the way of utility. and they're still relying on gems instead of simply being able to cast spells like everyone else. and those few actual decent spells require extremely expensive gems to cast, unlike almost any other caster who gets to do it for free.

they're good for making pyramids (and, admittedly, other stone structures). that's pretty much it.

Given how you limit the effectiveness of their abilities it's no wonder you think that, choosing the most restrictive interpretation possible. That and completely ignoring everything else already pointed out regarding their capabilities, as if the only thing that is to be considered is their gem and stone-shaping powers and pretend that they have no other skills whatsoever including just as much access to weapons and other skills as any other educated class. They've access to nearly every skill in the game including all Pilot, Pilot-related, Military, Electrical, Mechanical, Science, Technical, and Weapon Proficiencies. They're good for quite a bit more than 'just making pyramids'.

EDIT:

You could just about make an entire party of Stone Masters, with one an engineer-styled sort, another a power armor pilot, another a military expert, another a scientist. About the only thing you can't do is a medical doctor/Body Fixer styled character or one heavy on Espionage skills. They have enough skills to make a decent showing in all those categories, they certainly are more than 'just good for making pyramids'.

[Lenwen]

Admittedly it would be west a$$ to see a stonemaster in a TW flying PA suit that still enabled him to utilize his stone powers!!!!

[Nightmask]

Admittedly it would be west a$$ to see a stonemaster in a TW flying PA suit that still enabled him to utilize his stone powers!!!!

That would be pretty awesome to see. Gem-encrusted covering all the powers, all glittering to outdo a Glitter Boy and letting the Stone Master really rip through an enemy with relative ease.

[Akashic Soldier]

you have to have a 18,000 lb block of stone handy to throw at someone. those typically aren't just lying around.

Just carry it with you.

Is it within their ability to uproot a large part of the street?

Nope. Asphalt isn't technically stone, for the most part.
And if the street is cobble stone, they'd have to grab one at a time.

But man, if a Stone Master bought a stone golem, they could have ready ammunition with them at all times!
And nobody would expect it.
And the thing would regenerate afterward.

"You're going to regret messing with me buddy!" *throws his hands out to either side and begins glowing with magical energy* "TITAN, GO!"
"Understood Master!" *The stone Golem leaps into the air and is then is caught by the Wizard*
"ULTIMATE----STONE----CRUSHHHHAAHHHHH!" they yell in sequence as they smash their enemy to pieces.

Freaking badass.

[sHaka]

I wondered about letting Stone Wizards use the Techo-wizard's list of spells/powers by gems from RUE for a wider range of powers, but perhaps that might be too unbalancing.

They are good at making pyramids, but that isn't just it. They have full control over the pyramid (and the powers that go with that, effective immortality for one) and, depending on where it was constructed, potentially all of the PPE on a nexus and connecting ley lines. Played correctly, this could make them very powerful characters - even power brokers. But, I can see why you might consider them an NPC class as some of the greatest powers lend themselves to a sedentary lifestyle, not best suited to adventuring.

I'm sure the right player could make them awesome however.

[Killer Cyborg]

Build 1:
WP Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons
WP Targeting
HTH: Expert

Computer Programming
Electrical Engineer
Robot Electronics
Mechanical Engineer
Robot Mechanics
Weapons Engineer
Weapons Systems
Robots & Power Armor
Robot Combat: Basic

Secondary Skills:
Body Building
Climbing
Swimming
Camouflage

Vehicle: NG-V10 Super robot vehicle
Weapons (2 of choice related to WPs): Naruni Mecha-Knight Particle Beam Rifle (2d4x10 MD, 4000' range, hooks into nuclear power supply), and a K-1000 Spider Defense System

GM's decision whether or not his ability to lift stone carries over to his robot vehicle. I'd say that it wouldn't, because it's a vehicle, not his own PS.
He could, though, for fun and extra protection, add an outer stone layer around his robot to make it look like a giant golem or something.

His power of Move Stone Mentally should still work just fine, though, which could be handy during a battle, either to roll stones into defensive positions, or to remove stones providing cover to enemies, or to to be used offensively.
Likewise, his Levitation and Telekinesis of Stone should work as well.

[Bill]

fire ball is one of the least useful types of attack spells, and in any case that hinges upon the interpretation that you get the power to use whatever it is the stone does as often as you want for the duration, which i don't agree with at all (you get one use, and if that use has a duration, it gets the duration described - unless you also interpret it to mean that if you use armor of ithan the stone mage can just walk around passing armor of ithan to everyone they meet, etc).

I did debate whether Stone Masters would have to pay PPE/ISP for each use of the power on top of the basic cost to unlock the power and if it was a single use or unlimited. These are not at all clear in the gem power write up and, if I were to revise the material, I'd definitely want to make it more explicit. I decided to go with the flat cost and unlimited use for the duration because it seemed like a reasonable offset for the crippling disadvantages that are clearly spelled out for the gem powers. The very same disadvantages that you cite for the class being sub-par and not intended for use.

That said, I could be wrong. I'd rather err on the side of making the class useful and interesting though.

[Shark_Force]

fire ball is one of the least useful types of attack spells, and in any case that hinges upon the interpretation that you get the power to use whatever it is the stone does as often as you want for the duration, which i don't agree with at all (you get one use, and if that use has a duration, it gets the duration described - unless you also interpret it to mean that if you use armor of ithan the stone mage can just walk around passing armor of ithan to everyone they meet, etc).

I did debate whether Stone Masters would have to pay PPE/ISP for each use of the power on top of the basic cost to unlock the power and if it was a single use or unlimited. These are not at all clear in the gem power write up and, if I were to revise the material, I'd definitely want to make it more explicit. I decided to go with the flat cost and unlimited use for the duration because it seemed like a reasonable offset for the crippling disadvantages that are clearly spelled out for the gem powers. The very same disadvantages that you cite for the class being sub-par and not intended for use.

That said, I could be wrong. I'd rather err on the side of making the class useful and interesting though.

i'm not really worried about it for fire ball. they can have unlimited fire balls at will for all i care.

i'm more thinking that if this was *supposed* to be an OCC that lets you pass around invulnerability to 50 people with a mere handful of PPE spent, the class would likely have something to indicate that fact.

fire ball at will for 1 minute/level? not worried even a tiny bit. invulnerability at will for 1 minute/level? yeah, i don't think so.

[Bill]

fire ball at will for 1 minute/level? not worried even a tiny bit. invulnerability at will for 1 minute/level? yeah, i don't think so.

Have you read invulnerablity lately? While it protects targets from energy blasts and less common attacks perfectly for the duration, it grants a whopping 50 MDC versus physical attacks. In my game, I'll let you pass that around; for the minute per level it'll last.

[Shark_Force]

fire ball at will for 1 minute/level? not worried even a tiny bit. invulnerability at will for 1 minute/level? yeah, i don't think so.

Have you read invulnerablity lately? While it protects targets from energy blasts and less common attacks perfectly for the duration, it grants a whopping 50 MDC versus physical attacks. In my game, I'll let you pass that around; for the minute per level it'll last.

yes, i have read invulnerability lately. it grants you several immunities and a few rather large bonuses that are not very far away from being immunities to a few very broad categories of attacks, especially if the target has any other source of bonuses vs those things. anyone who casts invulnerability for the MDC is doing it wrong. fire ball at will essentially gives you a basic capability of attacking an enemy. i could care less. it has no need to be more limited than a laser pistol. invulnerability, on the other hand, can let you get through various encounters without even trying. it can trivialise a wide assortment of very common challenges. letting someone just throw it all over the place is just ridiculous.

also, you have to realise that if you can just cast it over and over again, then it isn't "just" 50 MDC (on top of a nice big pile of immunities and very high resistances). it's 50 MDC wherever it's needed every time you get an action. all for a lower PPE cost than casting it once in the first place.

[Bill]

And I haven't got a problem with that. Fits perfectly in a group with 200+ MDC tattooed men and guys wearing powered armor capable of leveling a city, in my opinion.

[gottork1967]

Nope. Asphalt isn't technically stone, for the most part.
And if the street is cobble stone, they'd have to grab one at a time.

I disagree, I think of this as a skill roll, power trick, so to speak, the higher the roll the more control the stone master has on the rocks laying around, plus then can mold the stone into a larger more damaging rock..

I had this question posed to me and made the comparison of what magneto did in the x-men with the weapons and the iron in the other persons blood.. hope this makes sense

[gottork1967]

I was going to start a new question thread for this but I will see about posting it here first..

When a stone master uses their innate powers, do you count them as one thought action per attack?

When a stone master melds stone, as long as they can manage the weight, I also count using whatever they made as a weapon if they use it to slam over onto a villan..
player-" I made a cave out of that boulder, then get inside and use it as a rolling weapon with levitate/telekinesis"
ME-" Ok you realize its slow, but its still a chance to protect you"
Player-" yep thats what I was kinda hoping for"

Also I have allowed my stone master to use the meld stone with a roll for percentage of success, to encase things, just like the Ice Mutant ability..

I would like some advice on this or other ideas for the player so I can pass it on to her

[gaby]

Maybe allow Stone Master to built more then Pyramids.

[Daeglan]

Well we have an Atlantean book coming. Maybe they will finaly have something in that.

[Daeglan]

Moai Stone Guardians(Easter Island) are Stone Master Magic.

The Lava Projector is stone magic.
Stone Caster Pistol is stone magic.
Lemurian Symbiotic Combat Vehicles Are Stone magic.

All from the Lemurian book.

[G]

I try to stick with the concept in the book...I wasn't trying to turn it into a CEF: Stone power.

I created myself a stone fighter, which was simply a small stone pyramid..You could create one motorcycle sized, car sized, plane sized...you get the idea. There might be some magic stone power armor....let me think here perhaps the amulet of the sun thing from one of the SA books...I think that was made of stone. For sure the standard TW power armor was made out of gems. There were juggernauts from SOT & the golem things from the federation of magic.

There is no reason however you couldn't have a stone golem companion (or pick a race made of stone for yourself). Perhaps you want a horse golem. Your mate could be a Medusa (one of the pretty ones).

...The possibilities are endless. Let the PC choose which direction they want to take it (or not).

[Shark_Force]

Stone Magic is awesome, especially if you're teamed with a Earth Warlock. Build walls, then turn them into MDC stone, or clay, etc. You'll never run out of catapult rocks or furniture. The gem powers are easy to expand using other magic, especially if you go with the TW list to expand the set. People often forget about their ability to cut gems via stone cutting in smaller faceted chunks, which allows them to increase the value of gem mines or gems picked up during an adventure. You can put stones into many, many different types of settings, and a group with a constant income via some form of business makes gems more accessible.

there's nothing i'm aware of about stone magic that lets you create MDC stone, clay, or etc. catapults are... a decidedly inefficient way of dealing SDC damage. and the furniture part has absolutely nothing to do with the stone mage, that just comes from having an earth warlock who is reasonably competent.

if you have to expand the gem powers for it to be good, that means it wasn't good in the first place. and a better way of getting more money from your gems would probably involve, oh, i don't know... not shattering them in order to cast spells, perhaps. also, turns out that stone mages are not the only people who can make jewellery (and actually have zero special abilities related to working with metal), so there goes any pretense of being some sort of super-special-awesome way to make money with gems.

frankly, most of the stuff you listed sounds like a reason to bring along an earth warlock without a stone master (and actually, the earth warlock can do more than just that too which is nice), and imo presents little to no reason to bring along a stone master.

the following are the lists of reasons you might specifically want to bring along a stone master:

1) you want to build a pyramid.
2) you want to move or manipulate an obscenely large amount of rocks.
3) you *have* a pyramid, and for some odd reason feel compelled to have a stone master in it as a status symbol or something.
4) the GM is *very* generous in interpreting the duration of the powers, and will let you use the powers of the gems repeatedly for the listed duration. and you also have a lot of money that you've been looking to burn, because frankly all the good powers require very expensive gems.

simply put... they're not great PCs. they do fine as NPCs. but they really aren't all about adventuring... they're about building pyramids and living in them, for the most part.

[eliakon]

Stone Magic is awesome, especially if you're teamed with a Earth Warlock. Build walls, then turn them into MDC stone, or clay, etc. You'll never run out of catapult rocks or furniture. The gem powers are easy to expand using other magic, especially if you go with the TW list to expand the set. People often forget about their ability to cut gems via stone cutting in smaller faceted chunks, which allows them to increase the value of gem mines or gems picked up during an adventure. You can put stones into many, many different types of settings, and a group with a constant income via some form of business makes gems more accessible.

there's nothing i'm aware of about stone magic that lets you create MDC stone, clay, or etc. catapults are... a decidedly inefficient way of dealing SDC damage. and the furniture part has absolutely nothing to do with the stone mage, that just comes from having an earth warlock who is reasonably competent.

if you have to expand the gem powers for it to be good, that means it wasn't good in the first place. and a better way of getting more money from your gems would probably involve, oh, i don't know... not shattering them in order to cast spells, perhaps. also, turns out that stone mages are not the only people who can make jewellery (and actually have zero special abilities related to working with metal), so there goes any pretense of being some sort of super-special-awesome way to make money with gems.

frankly, most of the stuff you listed sounds like a reason to bring along an earth warlock without a stone master (and actually, the earth warlock can do more than just that too which is nice), and imo presents little to no reason to bring along a stone master.

the following are the lists of reasons you might specifically want to bring along a stone master:

1) you want to build a pyramid.
2) you want to move or manipulate an obscenely large amount of rocks.
3) you *have* a pyramid, and for some odd reason feel compelled to have a stone master in it as a status symbol or something.
4) the GM is *very* generous in interpreting the duration of the powers, and will let you use the powers of the gems repeatedly for the listed duration. and you also have a lot of money that you've been looking to burn, because frankly all the good powers require very expensive gems.

simply put... they're not great PCs. they do fine as NPCs. but they really aren't all about adventuring... they're about building pyramids and living in them, for the most part.

Those gem powers are INSANE, I take a nice agate (red -orange) for 3d4x10cr thats 30-120cr and I can gain the power of 'Heal Wounds' for 3 times, each time for a minute per level? so lets see first level I smepd 120 cr, and get 3 minutes of healing, each minute is 4 rounds, each round I will get at least 4 actions so 48 healing touches? A mage btw needs 480ppe to do that, the stone master? only 5. And thats PER LEVEL and assuming I have nothing that raises my APM. Okay, lets look at a pricey stone like Diamond. Hrmm 1d6x1000 for a small one, so thats 3 uses, each use will let you draw...invunerability as the spell 50MDC force field that I can instantly replenesh at will for a minute per level.....WOW.
And thats setting aside the fact that its one of the signiture magical arts of several magical societies (Atlantis, Splugorth, Lemuria to start with) So a player might want to be a magic user that fits the culure of where they come from.
Stonemasters like almost every form of magic user in palladium that is not a spell specialist has great power in its narrow field.

[Shark_Force]

Those gem powers are INSANE, I take a nice agate (red -orange) for 3d4x10cr thats 30-120cr and I can gain the power of 'Heal Wounds' for 3 times, each time for a minute per level? so lets see first level I smepd 120 cr, and get 3 minutes of healing, each minute is 4 rounds, each round I will get at least 4 actions so 48 healing touches? A mage btw needs 480ppe to do that, the stone master? only 5. And thats PER LEVEL and assuming I have nothing that raises my APM. Okay, lets look at a pricey stone like Diamond. Hrmm 1d6x1000 for a small one, so thats 3 uses, each use will let you draw...invunerability as the spell 50MDC force field that I can instantly replenesh at will for a minute per level.....WOW.
And thats setting aside the fact that its one of the signiture magical arts of several magical societies (Atlantis, Splugorth, Lemuria to start with) So a player might want to be a magic user that fits the culure of where they come from.
Stonemasters like almost every form of magic user in palladium that is not a spell specialist has great power in its narrow field.

try not to get *too* excited. every other spellcaster in existence does the same thing on a ley line, except they don't have to destroy precious and rare gemstones to do it. at level 2, a shifter can use energy spheres to walk around with 400 PPE floating over his shoulders, but doesn't have to smash expensive gems to do it.

also, once again, that presumes your GM is very generous in interpreting how it works. this is not by any means certain. if the interpretation is that "three uses means 3 spells", then you get your spell cheaper than usual... aaaand it still sucks because you have to smash gems to do it.

as to themed by culture... yeah, that's all well and good, but... are you really convinced that true atlanteans have *only* stone masters around? are we seriously pretending that they can be one of the 3 races that learned how to create magic tattoos, and that they are all at least minimally trained in magic... but that they don't have ley line walkers, shifters, techo-wizards (actually, the city of... manoa i believe it is? pretty clearly indicates that not only do they have techno-wizards, they've actually developed it in ways that others haven't), warlocks, and virtually every other kind of spellcaster that exists? (well, okay... they probably don't have the gypsy ones. they already have a "wandering quasi-spellcaster" OCC).

true atlanteans know stone magic. that doesn't mean it's the *only* kind of magic they know. frankly, if you want to go cultural, i'd go with undead slayers. *every* true atlantean has tattoos. you only need about 1 stone master per city (because you likely only have 1 pyramid per city), and given that said stone master (and any apprentices) are functionally immune to aging, they don't exactly need a lot of replacements (not that anyone does in TA society, given the several hundred year lifespan, but there really isn't any need at all for more than a handful of stone mages... on the other hand, having another dozen ley line walkers means you've got more trained people who can defend the city. *without* smashing gemstones).

[eliakon]

Those gem powers are INSANE, I take a nice agate (red -orange) for 3d4x10cr thats 30-120cr and I can gain the power of 'Heal Wounds' for 3 times, each time for a minute per level? so lets see first level I smepd 120 cr, and get 3 minutes of healing, each minute is 4 rounds, each round I will get at least 4 actions so 48 healing touches? A mage btw needs 480ppe to do that, the stone master? only 5. And thats PER LEVEL and assuming I have nothing that raises my APM. Okay, lets look at a pricey stone like Diamond. Hrmm 1d6x1000 for a small one, so thats 3 uses, each use will let you draw...invunerability as the spell 50MDC force field that I can instantly replenesh at will for a minute per level.....WOW.
And thats setting aside the fact that its one of the signiture magical arts of several magical societies (Atlantis, Splugorth, Lemuria to start with) So a player might want to be a magic user that fits the culure of where they come from.
Stonemasters like almost every form of magic user in palladium that is not a spell specialist has great power in its narrow field.

try not to get *too* excited. every other spellcaster in existence does the same thing on a ley line, except they don't have to destroy precious and rare gemstones to do it. at level 2, a shifter can use energy spheres to walk around with 400 PPE floating over his shoulders, but doesn't have to smash expensive gems to do it.

also, once again, that presumes your GM is very generous in interpreting how it works. this is not by any means certain. if the interpretation is that "three uses means 3 spells", then you get your spell cheaper than usual... aaaand it still sucks because you have to smash gems to do it.

as to themed by culture... yeah, that's all well and good, but... are you really convinced that true atlanteans have *only* stone masters around? are we seriously pretending that they can be one of the 3 races that learned how to create magic tattoos, and that they are all at least minimally trained in magic... but that they don't have ley line walkers, shifters, techo-wizards (actually, the city of... manoa i believe it is? pretty clearly indicates that not only do they have techno-wizards, they've actually developed it in ways that others haven't), warlocks, and virtually every other kind of spellcaster that exists? (well, okay... they probably don't have the gypsy ones. they already have a "wandering quasi-spellcaster" OCC).

true atlanteans know stone magic. that doesn't mean it's the *only* kind of magic they know. frankly, if you want to go cultural, i'd go with undead slayers. *every* true atlantean has tattoos. you only need about 1 stone master per city (because you likely only have 1 pyramid per city), and given that said stone master (and any apprentices) are functionally immune to aging, they don't exactly need a lot of replacements (not that anyone does in TA society, given the several hundred year lifespan, but there really isn't any need at all for more than a handful of stone mages... on the other hand, having another dozen ley line walkers means you've got more trained people who can defend the city. *without* smashing gemstones).

True, your GM could say you get three uses if they like, thats their perogative. I am assuming that 'has the power for x minutes' means you can cast it in that time. But then again I am also basing it heavily off of the Gem Powers power in HU (which is where it was adapted from, heck the cut paste even has the line about super powers) where you get a power for x minutes, and can use it as you like during that time

And yes, a shifter or temporal wizard can have the energy sphere thing, again assuming your GM allows it (a GM does NOT have to allow every spell, especially ones that they feel may be disruptive for its game) And yah they dont have to use up gems. Of course they have to cast their spells, and need to speak and all that that entails, so yes you have, wait for it, a DIFFERENT form of magic...you make a trade off. I have yet to see for instance a shifter that can 'cast' Detect Psionics, of Hypnotic Suggestion (amethyst) or Empathic Transmision (sapphire).

And I am not saying that stone magic is the only form, any more than there were only techno-wizards in Tolkeen or Lazlo....but there are a LOT of them, and its sort of iconic of the cultures. And of course some one has to build all those cool 'advanced stone magic' toys like Manoa and Lemuria use.

So yah, some people like having a character that is different than the rest, and some like a character that is thematically linked to their culture.

[Shark_Force]

assuming that your GM is going to allow a shifter a spell that is explicitly in the list of spells that shifters can choose from is rather less of a stretch than assuming your GM will interpret "three uses" to mean "you can use it as often as you want for X minutes, 3 times"

as to the psionic mind control stuff... much as i hate to say this, psionic mind control sucks. if you want to melt minds, don't call a mind melter. call a shifter. they're better at it by a rather significant margin, sadly enough. (actually, pretty much anyone with invocation magic does it better... shifters are just more likely to know the spells because that's kinda what shifters do)

furthermore, you listed a whopping 3 powers a stone master can use that every other caster can't (unless they're also psionic somehow... mystics, for example, absolutely could learn hypnotic suggestion or empathic transmission, but they pay for that in other ways).

but if i go through the original RMB list of spells, and compare what an RMB ley line walker or shifter has access to compared to a stone master, i know i'd find that the stone master is missing all kinds of awesome stuff. a ley line walker may have to find someone to sell the spell, but a stone master can never ever learn the spell in the first place. i think i'm going to have to say that the ley line walker is going to win in versatility by a long shot.

stone masters are not bad. they're just not good adventurers compared to just about every other kind of spellcaster in existence. they're good at what they do, and it isn't adventuring. that's not "bad", it's simply how things are... if you want to adventure, a stone master really is just not a terribly good choice. they're pretty dependant on being in a city (where they'll be able to actually go into a shop and buy gems, unlike most wilderness towns), and their area of specialization is pyramids and manipulating rock. if you want to build a city in a very short time and you've got lots of rock to build with, a stone master is just what you need. if you want a pyramid, a stone master is just what you need. if you want to go on adventures where you might not get back to town for resupply (and town might not even have a gem store in the first place) for months at a time... well, you should probably find someone who *isn't* a stone master for that. it's more likely to end well.

could you make a stone master adventurer? i guess so. but then again, there's a *reason* they're mentioned as being some of the most sedentary true atlanteans, and that they often spend centuries living in one place at a time. cities have demand for the service and are much much much more likely to have a supply of gems, should you need them (frankly, i see most stone masters using their powers to shape, move, and transport stone far more than their gem powers, because that's what they can do that others can't do better). if you're in the town of podunkville, in boondock county, located in the republic of whereamiagain, you probably aren't going to find a shop hocking diamonds and emeralds. you might be able to find and shape your own quartz crystals, i guess, but that's not exactly going to get you the best spells out there.

[Tor]

I agree with Nightmask. The class is more of a scholar adventurer than a dedicated magic user and, given that they only pay the cost to activate the gem once to gain the power for 1 minute per level, stone masters are a little more effective than you might be giving them credit for. That's a lot of fire balls for 20 PPE.

Not to mention the access to some psychic abilities for non-psychics.

I bet Soul Harvesters and D'norr Devilmen would love becoming a Stone Master.

[Shark_Force]

I agree with Nightmask. The class is more of a scholar adventurer than a dedicated magic user and, given that they only pay the cost to activate the gem once to gain the power for 1 minute per level, stone masters are a little more effective than you might be giving them credit for. That's a lot of fire balls for 20 PPE.

Not to mention the access to some psychic abilities for non-psychics.

I bet Soul Harvesters and D'norr Devilmen would love becoming a Stone Master.

most of them are actually pretty lousy compared to what you can get from magic. odds are good you can get the same or similar (or better) results to any psionic power stone magic provides with a bog-standard ley line walker.

[eliakon]

I agree with Nightmask. The class is more of a scholar adventurer than a dedicated magic user and, given that they only pay the cost to activate the gem once to gain the power for 1 minute per level, stone masters are a little more effective than you might be giving them credit for. That's a lot of fire balls for 20 PPE.

Not to mention the access to some psychic abilities for non-psychics.

I bet Soul Harvesters and D'norr Devilmen would love becoming a Stone Master.

most of them are actually pretty lousy compared to what you can get from magic. odds are good you can get the same or similar (or better) results to any psionic power stone magic provides with a bog-standard ley line walker.

Yes, but those are MAGIC powers, some people might want the acutall psionics. As we have said its a flavor thing. Some of us like this flavor...some dont, some like the flavor of tequilla and some dont......doesnt mean tequilla is or is not good, just that its not for everyone.

[Bill]

They can indeed go treasure-hunting. And their powers are such that, for rapid construction of fortifications, they can charge a premium for their talents. Additionally, they have the ability to refine stones from low to high quality, though they have to be of a fairly high level to do it successfully in any consistent fashion.

It is my hope that the class will receive some attention when WB2 gets updated and revised or in the upcoming Atlantean sourcebook. It could definitely be expanded on and given a few paths to specialize into.

[Shark_Force]

By the by, where is this “Energy Spheres” spell listed at? Though I must say, if you wander around the countryside with glowing balls of energy at your shoulder, you are all but demanding someone take you on at some point. I could see it in a magic using city perhaps, as a combined reserves for utility uses and also as a light source, but you pull that same stunt out in the field, and someone’s going to see it a bit like an Operator wandering around with a few armed drones hovering about…a challenge…

book of magic. or if you have it, the old federation of magic book. and no, i don't really see it being like an operator walking around with armed drones. i see it as being like *anyone* walking around with e-clips. now, obviously, you don't march into chi-town with it, but then... i don't think stone masters are getting a VIP pass there either.

And I have to ask…why can’t a Stone Master just go get his own stones? They are attuned to this sort of thing, right? So why couldn’t they just go to where a given type of stone is likely to be found, and magic it up? Whether that’s digging through earth like a dog, telling the earth to move the heck out of the way, or sitting and “meditating” while they manipulate small amounts of earth to bring what they want to the surface, it shouldn’t be the big a deal, especially in areas where old cities used to stand. Sure a lot of it likely got looted, but some of it would still be there, and these guys should, but all rights, be able to just scan for it mentally, right? Their ability to mentally move stone has a range of a full 1000’! That means they can even sit in a boat and manipulate earth to bring the stone all the way to the surface of the water, presuming its only a few hundred feet deep!

well, first off, a lot of stuff has already been salvaged. techno-wizards have been roaming the country for quite a while now (specific details/date not available), and can use them for all kinds of things. and they're much more common than stone masters. and of course, many people will want them for money (note: most of those gems likely get traded to someone who will eventually move it to a city. a farmer is unlikely to accept a gem for anything before actual needs are met, because for them a gem is merely a trade item the majority of the time. it's only likely to be considered "important" to own jewellery in cities).

secondly, there is nothing in the stone master OCC that lets them actually sense what kind of stone is nearby. they can sense water, they can sense supernatural beings in the earth, and they can sense secret passages... but technically, they can't even tell whether stone is nearby at all without actually looking. they don't even technically have a skill by default that lets them know what the various gems are (obviously, they should, at a very high percentage to say the least, but they don't).

thirdly, some stones simply aren't found everywhere. quartz in it's various forms is pretty common (actual quartz crystals not so much, as i understand it). but on the other hand, well... think of the town/city/area you're in. do you know of any diamond, ruby, sapphire, or other gemstone mines in the area? go down the list of types of gems some time and see how many you have in any significant quantity in your town... i bet you're missing an awful lot of them. you probably couldn't even begin to guess where to look for, say... red zircon. sure, a stone master could go tunnelling into the ground, hoping to run into exactly the kind of gem needed completely at random. but, that isn't terribly likely to get the desired results. even in places known to have certain minerals in the area, it's not like they're actually everywhere in that area.

and again, we come to the argument that you can add more powers to make them not so unimpressive. that's all very well and good, but... if they need more powers, that's a pretty clear sign that they are lacking as is.

i just don't see them as being like an operator either. the operator, for one thing, is very visibly designed to be a travelling mechanic. they are frankly about 99.9% as effective in a fight as a full-fledged RPA, and are vastly more useful after the fight when it comes to repairs. some (but not all) of the fights they face will lead to salvageable parts in some form or another (bearing in mind that operators do repair giant MDC robots, but they also repair tractors, generators, cars/trucks, radios, etc). and as a travelling mechanic, they have a reason to actually be going someplace.

on the other hand, i don't see much call for a wandering stone master. it's not like every town they come across has gigantic boulders that need moving (and tbh, if they did... the operator might have some explosives that'll get the job done anyways), or needs (but hasn't built) gigantic stone walls. even the ones that do, aren't likely to have the sorts of things a stone master would be looking to get paid with.

stone masters just don't really fit in a wilderness. they can go there, absolutely, but they have little reason to do so (they can already make money, which they can use to buy gems they need... if they're in a city), and the kind of work they do is much more likely to be useful in a city as well (especially one with a pyramid, where their gem powers are *massively* enhanced). not to mention people who can afford to pay for their work are also much more likely to be in a city (and a stone master is much less likely to have a use for random salvage and trade goods than an operator, who, once again, is designed as a travelling mechanic more or less)