Availability of CS armor...

[Dr Megaverse]

Just curious, in your games how easy is it for non CS folks to get their hands on CS equipment? Specifically armor. Not just the core CS but also FQ.

[keir451]

Very hard for the new stuff from the CS & FQ the old stuff is fair because NG is making knock offs.

Ditto. Only currently active duty or recently retired personnel get the new CS gear, old CS gear is fair availability due to not just NG knock offs but Black Market ones as well.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pretty hard to buy... not SUPER hard to... acquire..... if you catch my drift. Many GM's use the CS as main foils... and if you take out 5 guys you can piece together a functional suit pretty easily....

The thing with me is, who'd want tobe caught in it?

Wear it as to not get dead in battle? Sure.

But what happens when the CS catches you in it? They're going to be pretty pissed. As the only way you're getting it is if a CS troop died and you (( or someone )) took it.

So it's one of those "At your own risks" things.

As an Aside. I frigging love the FQ armor.

[Mercdog]

Pretty much agree with Pepsi Jedi. New CS equipment would be tough to acquire, risky to own, and pretty expensive because of the risks involved in dealing it on the Market.

Still, I'm sure that there are a few war profiteers out there who have some suits available for sale after the Tolkeen conflict.

[rat_bastard]

Pre siege on Tolkeen, hard. Post Siege on Tolkeen its all anyone is selling.

[Lenwen]

In my world CS equipment and vehicles are as easy to get as merely walking down tbe street. Course.. majority of my games take place in Atlantis.. we sell everything.. from CS weapons, to armors to vehicles to CS troops to dogboys ! Lol

[Colt47]

Pretty hard to buy... not SUPER hard to... acquire..... if you catch my drift. Many GM's use the CS as main foils... and if you take out 5 guys you can piece together a functional suit pretty easily....

The thing with me is, who'd want tobe caught in it?

Wear it as to not get dead in battle? Sure.

But what happens when the CS catches you in it? They're going to be pretty pissed. As the only way you're getting it is if a CS troop died and you (( or someone )) took it.

So it's one of those "At your own risks" things.

As an Aside. I frigging love the FQ armor.

Or someone could just have the armor retooled to look physically different from the original design. Visually most armors are configured in the same fashion in Rifts: it's the details that make them different. Someone could have their brand new CS body armor configured to resemble Bushman or some other generic and unless someone really inspected the armor they probably wouldn't know what it originally was.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pretty hard to buy... not SUPER hard to... acquire..... if you catch my drift. Many GM's use the CS as main foils... and if you take out 5 guys you can piece together a functional suit pretty easily....

The thing with me is, who'd want tobe caught in it?

Wear it as to not get dead in battle? Sure.

But what happens when the CS catches you in it? They're going to be pretty pissed. As the only way you're getting it is if a CS troop died and you (( or someone )) took it.

So it's one of those "At your own risks" things.

As an Aside. I frigging love the FQ armor.

Or someone could just have the armor retooled to look physically different from the original design. Visually most armors are configured in the same fashion in Rifts: it's the details that make them different. Someone could have their brand new CS body armor configured to resemble Bushman or some other generic and unless someone really inspected the armor they probably wouldn't know what it originally was.

Seems it'd be cheaper to just buy the bushman or something. Totally structurally changing the CS armor seems pretty hard to do, to the extent that it couldn't be inspected and ascertained.

It's not like you can just paint it and call 'er good. The CS armor is very very visually distinctive. On purpose. The Skeleton motiff and what not, the ribs carved into it the bones, ect. You can tell Deadboy armor at a glance from way off. And it's on purpose.

There's a pic in... Lone star I think, of a guy in stolen CS armor and it's painted with flames, and when you look at it the first thing you do is go "ha! That guy is in stolen CS armor!"


I understand you're talking about someone working the armor professionally to take out those design astetics. But I suspect the CS have it designed ---on purpose--- to be really hard to do, with out taking the MDC out .

All around I'd say it'd be easier to sell the stolen CS armor to the armorer, and buy a suit of non CS armor with the proceeds. There ARE some people that want CS armor for the look of it and such.



My self. I love FQ armor. My guys often sport it if possible.

[flatline]

The closer you get to CS territory, the riskier it is to have it. Therefore, I would expect all CS armor to be available but pricey near the CS and the older stuff to be available and fairly priced (still marked up, though) when far away from the CS.

--flatline

[Dr Megaverse]

Pretty hard to buy... not SUPER hard to... acquire..... if you catch my drift. Many GM's use the CS as main foils... and if you take out 5 guys you can piece together a functional suit pretty easily....

The thing with me is, who'd want tobe caught in it?

Wear it as to not get dead in battle? Sure.

But what happens when the CS catches you in it? They're going to be pretty pissed. As the only way you're getting it is if a CS troop died and you (( or someone )) took it.

So it's one of those "At your own risks" things.

As an Aside. I frigging love the FQ armor.

I love the FQ armor too!

[Colt47]

Pretty hard to buy... not SUPER hard to... acquire..... if you catch my drift. Many GM's use the CS as main foils... and if you take out 5 guys you can piece together a functional suit pretty easily....

The thing with me is, who'd want tobe caught in it?

Wear it as to not get dead in battle? Sure.

But what happens when the CS catches you in it? They're going to be pretty pissed. As the only way you're getting it is if a CS troop died and you (( or someone )) took it.

So it's one of those "At your own risks" things.

As an Aside. I frigging love the FQ armor.

Or someone could just have the armor retooled to look physically different from the original design. Visually most armors are configured in the same fashion in Rifts: it's the details that make them different. Someone could have their brand new CS body armor configured to resemble Bushman or some other generic and unless someone really inspected the armor they probably wouldn't know what it originally was.

Seems it'd be cheaper to just buy the bushman or something. Totally structurally changing the CS armor seems pretty hard to do, to the extent that it couldn't be inspected and ascertained.

It's not like you can just paint it and call 'er good. The CS armor is very very visually distinctive. On purpose. The Skeleton motiff and what not, the ribs carved into it the bones, ect. You can tell Deadboy armor at a glance from way off. And it's on purpose.

There's a pic in... Lone star I think, of a guy in stolen CS armor and it's painted with flames, and when you look at it the first thing you do is go "ha! That guy is in stolen CS armor!"


I understand you're talking about someone working the armor professionally to take out those design astetics. But I suspect the CS have it designed ---on purpose--- to be really hard to do, with out taking the MDC out .

All around I'd say it'd be easier to sell the stolen CS armor to the armorer, and buy a suit of non CS armor with the proceeds. There ARE some people that want CS armor for the look of it and such.



My self. I love FQ armor. My guys often sport it if possible.

It might take some work, but arguably the CA-4 is the best standard issue armor in North America and would definitely be worth retooling if it means being able to use it in CS territory. No way anyone would fool a Military specialist or engineer, but for most common patrols and grunts it's possible to mod it enough that the authorities wont notice anything.

Also, as far as costs go people are already paying a premium for Triax armor and Naruni armor, which are either at the same level or a step above CS armor.

[Shark_Force]

honestly, it should be pretty simple to modify CS armor to be mostly unrecognizable. simplest way would be to just put basic plastic covering over it. even simply modifying the helmet with molded plastic and throwing on an overcoat would cover most of it. not to mention if you use enough armor patch material to patch over all the distinguishing features.

no, a mere paint job wouldn't do the trick. but covering it up enough to be hard to ID should be pretty simple for most people who could repair body armor.

[Pepsi Jedi]

and the first time you get shot, there goes your crappy plastic covering.. that on TOP of full environmental armor.. is going to look like someone putting a plastic covering over armor, and probably draw more attention and additional movement penalties.

The CS armor is distinctive in not only visual appearance, but shape as well. The molded ribs and skulls nad shoulder pads and stuff. To Effectively cover that you'd need alot of contoured plastic and what not. You'd end up looking like the michilan man or a sumo or something.

And I'm sure they did it fully on purpose. Just so it'd be hard to steal and use their armor against them. If you take those parts off it'd compromise the armor and reduce the MDC and environmental systems. If you cover it up, it'd be like putting on a fireman's coat on top of body armor.

I'm not saying you couldn't do it. You could with work, but one way (( Cutting off or taking the sculpting away)) Would ruin the armor or reduce it's effectiveness. Covering it up would make you look comical and pretty clear that you were trying to hide it. Moving in heavy armor isn't amazingly easy to start with. Having to wear concealing clothes over it.... naaa...

Just a whole lot easier to get different armor. If the CS stuff is all you have. Sure. you'd wear it but the trouble being discussed here is a bit prohibitive.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah but that's not exactly what you'd call the center of CS territory or their reach is it? And that was also pree CS war machine wasn't it? Yeah.. original Vamp Kingdoms was WB 1 CS war machine wasn't till WB11 (( I think))

[Pepsi Jedi]

So which city is the place in?

[Faceless Dude]

I agree with the consensus that it's probably more trouble than it's worth to try "modifying" CS armor to look like anything other that what it is.

That being said, if one was dead-set on doing this, I'd recommend using cans of metal spray (offered on Earth and listed in Merc Ops) not as a repair element but as a spray-on coating to help mask some of the more skeletal features.

Still difficult, still expensive, and still won't hold up under scrutiny, but would likely work in a dark alley or at a distance.

[Faceless Dude]

There's a hotel in Ciudad Juarez, or El Paso, from Vampire Kingdoms, in which the entire guard force that protects the property/customers is wearing CS armor - even painted it red. While I believe it should be hard to acquire, if a hotel is able to purchase dozens of suits to equip its security personnel, it doesn't seem like it actually is.

I just scanned through my copy of VK and couldnt find reference to any establishment that has a security force clad in Dead Boy armor, red or any other color. Page number please?

[Shark_Force]

and the first time you get shot, there goes your crappy plastic covering.. that on TOP of full environmental armor.. is going to look like someone putting a plastic covering over armor, and probably draw more attention and additional movement penalties.

The CS armor is distinctive in not only visual appearance, but shape as well. The molded ribs and skulls nad shoulder pads and stuff. To Effectively cover that you'd need alot of contoured plastic and what not. You'd end up looking like the michilan man or a sumo or something.

And I'm sure they did it fully on purpose. Just so it'd be hard to steal and use their armor against them. If you take those parts off it'd compromise the armor and reduce the MDC and environmental systems. If you cover it up, it'd be like putting on a fireman's coat on top of body armor.

I'm not saying you couldn't do it. You could with work, but one way (( Cutting off or taking the sculpting away)) Would ruin the armor or reduce it's effectiveness. Covering it up would make you look comical and pretty clear that you were trying to hide it. Moving in heavy armor isn't amazingly easy to start with. Having to wear concealing clothes over it.... naaa...

Just a whole lot easier to get different armor. If the CS stuff is all you have. Sure. you'd wear it but the trouble being discussed here is a bit prohibitive.

- if i'm getting shot at, then at least i was wearing armor that keeps me from getting killed. getting shot with no CS armor on would be much worse than the fact that now i've been exposed as wearing CS armor.

- i don't see why it would have to be that massive. shoulder pads are not distinctive. fill in the skeletal stuff with crappy light filler, cover the rest with a thin layer of cheap plastic (doesn't even have to be MDC) and then paint over top, and you should be fine.

- that would not be particularly difficult, and should make it considerably harder to tell. if you want, throw a crappy cheap chain skirt or something. it really doesn't take much to obscure the armor underneath, and if it gets shot at, well, see my point number 1: better exposed to be wearing CS armor than a smoking pile of ash.

- there's no need for it to be as bulky as you claim. you're trying to conceal ridges of metal/plastic/whatever that are all of a couple centimeters deep, tops. all you need to cover it is the same depth + some small amount. i cannot begin to fathom why you would think you need to wear something half a foot thick to cover up those ridges.

seriously, this isn't rocket science. a freaking 3-year-old with play-doh could probably fill in the holes.

[SkyeFyre]

Am I the only one that just pictured someone wearing a poncho over their armor? Tailor it to be a bit longer, and tadah!

[Dog_O_War]

I agree with the consensus that it's probably more trouble than it's worth to try "modifying" CS armor to look like anything other that what it is.

Not really; pound-for-pound the new CS armour offers more protection than anything in Rifts Earth. So keeping a suit of the stuff is worth your while. Also, you can modify the thing to have more protection, which means adding MDC material. That material can be used to fill the cosmetic look of the armour, thus disguising it. Add some paint and *poof* disguised armour.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I think you all are failing to reconize how armor works. Sure you can just bolt or weld metal to the out side but that's not going to work well. Heavy armor already gives penalties. Adding to that is going to jack those up.

The CS armor isn't just painted a certain way. It's designed from the bottom of the boots to the top of the skull helmet to look like CS armor. You've got the bone stuff from the boots on up the legs, all of the chest and back the large shoulder pads and the helmet. "Adding some filler" will look like someone took CS armor.. and added Filler. And it's going to add weight to the armor. Not just a little but from the bottom of your feet to the top of your head.

This stuff isn't like wearing footbal pads guys. It's full environmental armor from head to toe. it's going to be pretty uncomfortable, heavy and what not to start with. You're (( Conceivably) A military guy. Trained to accept that discomfort and suuch but adding pounds and pounds of stuff to try and cover the armor is going to suck. It's going to make it harder to move. You'll end up waddeling around the battle field and then.. shot more because you're slower, less agile and carrying all that extra weight.

Again I'm not saying you can't do itt. I'm saying the armor is clearly designed (( in part)) So that if you try to do it, it'll be hard to do and the results will be undesirable.

[Shark_Force]

I think you all are failing to reconize how armor works. Sure you can just bolt or weld metal to the out side but that's not going to work well. Heavy armor already gives penalties. Adding to that is going to jack those up.

The CS armor isn't just painted a certain way. It's designed from the bottom of the boots to the top of the skull helmet to look like CS armor. You've got the bone stuff from the boots on up the legs, all of the chest and back the large shoulder pads and the helmet. "Adding some filler" will look like someone took CS armor.. and added Filler. And it's going to add weight to the armor. Not just a little but from the bottom of your feet to the top of your head.

This stuff isn't like wearing footbal pads guys. It's full environmental armor from head to toe. it's going to be pretty uncomfortable, heavy and what not to start with. You're (( Conceivably) A military guy. Trained to accept that discomfort and suuch but adding pounds and pounds of stuff to try and cover the armor is going to suck. It's going to make it harder to move. You'll end up waddeling around the battle field and then.. shot more because you're slower, less agile and carrying all that extra weight.

Again I'm not saying you can't do itt. I'm saying the armor is clearly designed (( in part)) So that if you try to do it, it'll be hard to do and the results will be undesirable.

the stuff you're adding does not need to be heavy MDC material. it can be basically styrofoam with a very thin coating of something a bit more durable (and SDC), with a coating of paint on top of that. it isn't going to add significantly to bulk, will actually make the armor more convenient for moving around because now you don't have a bunch of ridges to catch on everything (fine for show armor, but for combat makes no sense), and will add probably less than a pound of weight to the whole thing.

once you get rid of the raised skeletal stuff, the armor is not really all that distinctive in appearance. to really thoroughly disguise it against a close inspection might be tough. to just make it not immediately obvious will not be.

[Dr Megaverse]

How about FQ armor then? No skull motif, but still kind of unique.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I think you all are failing to reconize how armor works. Sure you can just bolt or weld metal to the out side but that's not going to work well. Heavy armor already gives penalties. Adding to that is going to jack those up.

The CS armor isn't just painted a certain way. It's designed from the bottom of the boots to the top of the skull helmet to look like CS armor. You've got the bone stuff from the boots on up the legs, all of the chest and back the large shoulder pads and the helmet. "Adding some filler" will look like someone took CS armor.. and added Filler. And it's going to add weight to the armor. Not just a little but from the bottom of your feet to the top of your head.

This stuff isn't like wearing footbal pads guys. It's full environmental armor from head to toe. it's going to be pretty uncomfortable, heavy and what not to start with. You're (( Conceivably) A military guy. Trained to accept that discomfort and suuch but adding pounds and pounds of stuff to try and cover the armor is going to suck. It's going to make it harder to move. You'll end up waddeling around the battle field and then.. shot more because you're slower, less agile and carrying all that extra weight.

Again I'm not saying you can't do itt. I'm saying the armor is clearly designed (( in part)) So that if you try to do it, it'll be hard to do and the results will be undesirable.

the stuff you're adding does not need to be heavy MDC material. it can be basically styrofoam with a very thin coating of something a bit more durable (and SDC), with a coating of paint on top of that. it isn't going to add significantly to bulk, will actually make the armor more convenient for moving around because now you don't have a bunch of ridges to catch on everything (fine for show armor, but for combat makes no sense), and will add probably less than a pound of weight to the whole thing.

once you get rid of the raised skeletal stuff, the armor is not really all that distinctive in appearance. to really thoroughly disguise it against a close inspection might be tough. to just make it not immediately obvious will not be.

Again ignorance. You can't cover an entire suit of armor enough to disguise it with less than a pound of material. And adding to the bulk isn't going to make it easier to move around. If you did cover it with padding and plastic again you'll look like a sumo wrestler, but really weird because the joints would have to be uncovered. It'd look stupid as hell. (( I won't argue that all the contouring and design ascetic would be heck in the woods. But then so is solid black and white armor. The CS battle doctrine doesn't rely very heavily on stealth for the common troop.)).

And again. I'm not saying you couldn't, with alot of work, modify it to be unrecognizable. I'm saying it'd either 1) Destroy much of the MDC and compromise the environmental aspect of the environmental armor.. or 2) Look exactly like what it is. Someone taking a suit of amour and putting stuff on it to try and hide what it is underneath. Which would probably stand out more than if you just painted it and didn't wear it around anyone you weren't going to shoot. You come waddling into combat with your armor, covered in stuff to hide the true nature of it, but really skinny at the joints where you'd need to move, and people are going to know in a second why it looks like that. It'll be bulky((er)) and jury rigged. And they'll go "hey that guy stole someone's armor and is trying to cover it with crap so it doesn't look like who evver's armor he stole"

You're not going to be able to cover up CS armor to look like anything but CS armor with out alot of work and money. You're better off buying a different suit or buccking up and just not wearing it in CS territory.

[Pepsi Jedi]

How about FQ armor then? No skull motif, but still kind of unique.

I love FQ armor. And it's not as "Motif'd' as the Deadboy stuff.

It's still quite stylish, but also alot more limited in deployment. And it's not like you'll run into FQ troops much below... say Chi town. Now granted you'll run into the same problems with the CS. Even if you're not FQ they're going to wonder about the guy in FQ armor. but you might make it out alive (( likely if you're pleading ignorance and give it up instantly and take a butt kicking for having it.))

Frankly out of all the body armors they've had in the rifts books (( just normal body armor)) I'd easily take the FQ stuff. I'd keep the helment and stuff and just say way the hell away from FQ. lol I mean those guys don't even like dogboys..... weird french Canadians.....

[Shark_Force]

Again ignorance. You can't cover an entire suit of armor enough to disguise it with less than a pound of material. And adding to the bulk isn't going to make it easier to move around. If you did cover it with padding and plastic again you'll look like a sumo wrestler, but really weird because the joints would have to be uncovered. It'd look stupid as hell. (( I won't argue that all the contouring and design ascetic would be heck in the woods. But then so is solid black and white armor. The CS battle doctrine doesn't rely very heavily on stealth for the common troop.)).

And again. I'm not saying you couldn't, with alot of work, modify it to be unrecognizable. I'm saying it'd either 1) Destroy much of the MDC and compromise the environmental aspect of the environmental armor.. or 2) Look exactly like what it is. Someone taking a suit of amour and putting stuff on it to try and hide what it is underneath. Which would probably stand out more than if you just painted it and didn't wear it around anyone you weren't going to shoot. You come waddling into combat with your armor, covered in stuff to hide the true nature of it, but really skinny at the joints where you'd need to move, and people are going to know in a second why it looks like that. It'll be bulky((er)) and jury rigged. And they'll go "hey that guy stole someone's armor and is trying to cover it with crap so it doesn't look like who evver's armor he stole"

You're not going to be able to cover up CS armor to look like anything but CS armor with out alot of work and money. You're better off buying a different suit or buccking up and just not wearing it in CS territory.

thicker yes, but not by much. it only needs about a millimeter of extra thickness. thickness which the armor already has essentially because it's got raised skeletal stuff all over the place. if you're just filling it with... well... filler... then it's not going to need to have much weight. you're not expecting the material to stop missiles or anything, just to cover up what's underneath it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Again ignorance. You can't cover an entire suit of armor enough to disguise it with less than a pound of material. And adding to the bulk isn't going to make it easier to move around. If you did cover it with padding and plastic again you'll look like a sumo wrestler, but really weird because the joints would have to be uncovered. It'd look stupid as hell. (( I won't argue that all the contouring and design ascetic would be heck in the woods. But then so is solid black and white armor. The CS battle doctrine doesn't rely very heavily on stealth for the common troop.)).

And again. I'm not saying you couldn't, with alot of work, modify it to be unrecognizable. I'm saying it'd either 1) Destroy much of the MDC and compromise the environmental aspect of the environmental armor.. or 2) Look exactly like what it is. Someone taking a suit of amour and putting stuff on it to try and hide what it is underneath. Which would probably stand out more than if you just painted it and didn't wear it around anyone you weren't going to shoot. You come waddling into combat with your armor, covered in stuff to hide the true nature of it, but really skinny at the joints where you'd need to move, and people are going to know in a second why it looks like that. It'll be bulky((er)) and jury rigged. And they'll go "hey that guy stole someone's armor and is trying to cover it with crap so it doesn't look like who evver's armor he stole"

You're not going to be able to cover up CS armor to look like anything but CS armor with out alot of work and money. You're better off buying a different suit or buccking up and just not wearing it in CS territory.

thicker yes, but not by much. it only needs about a millimeter of extra thickness. thickness which the armor already has essentially because it's got raised skeletal stuff all over the place. if you're just filling it with... well... filler... then it's not going to need to have much weight. you're not expecting the material to stop missiles or anything, just to cover up what's underneath it.

The designs and ascetics are alot bigger and deeper than a milometer on CS armor. It's got the skeleton thing all over. the ribs over the chest peices seem to be a few inches deep. The skull helmet can't be covered with out covering part of the plastic visor. Not to mention the stuff around the bottom.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I think you guys are low balling it out of hope. I think if you look at the images of the new CS armor and be honest with yourself, that stuff is going to be hard to cover to look like anything but what it is, with out spending alot of money or effort. But, to each his own.

[Nightmask]

There's a hotel in Ciudad Juarez, or El Paso, from Vampire Kingdoms, in which the entire guard force that protects the property/customers is wearing CS armor - even painted it red. While I believe it should be hard to acquire, if a hotel is able to purchase dozens of suits to equip its security personnel, it doesn't seem like it actually is.

I just scanned through my copy of VK and couldnt find reference to any establishment that has a security force clad in Dead Boy armor, red or any other color. Page number please?

Ha, looks like I was wrong...I'll admit that...maybe I made that part up as I was fleshing out the town a bit...my mistake, however, they following groups do use Coalition equipment and some are not really in a position where they would come across it normally...begging the question where/how do they get it.

Pg. 55, the Muluc Kingdom was able to acquire 24 suits of SAMAS and a handful of Mechs.

Pg. 57, the Tampico Protectorate got their hands on a Spider-Skull Walker...on the east coast of southern Mexico.

Pg. 60, El Paso Gang, the K-9s use Coalition Armor.
Pg. 62, El Paso Gang, the Trogs use Coalition Armor.
Pg. 63, El Paso Gang, the Hammers use Coalition Armor.

Pg. 69, Ciudad Juarez Gang, the Subs use Coalition Armor.
Pg. 70, Ciudad Juarez Gang, the Psykes use Coalition Armor.
Pg. 72, Ciudad Juarez Gang, the Skivers use Coalition Armor.
Pg. 75, Ciudad Juarez Gang, the Night Masters used Coalition Armor.

Pg. 103, Reid's Rangerd posses several Coalition Vehicles and 17 suits of SAMAS Armor. States that the equipment has been stolen, which is odd...why would Reid's Rangers travel hundreds of miles north to raid Coalition Armories? Unless Coalition Equipment can be commonly found in Mexico.

Does it mention that Reid's group stole the equipment personally? Plenty of people are using stolen CS gear courtesy of the Black Market and general market movement of it from place to place. Seems like there's a lot of it floating around for people to get ahold of one way or another. Plus given much of it's just restyled pre-Cataclysm stuff at least some of it's just gear made by others and just looks like a CS armor because they're using the same designs (at least for older models).

[Shark_Force]

The designs and ascetics are alot bigger and deeper than a milometer on CS armor. It's got the skeleton thing all over. the ribs over the chest peices seem to be a few inches deep. The skull helmet can't be covered with out covering part of the plastic visor. Not to mention the stuff around the bottom.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I think you guys are low balling it out of hope. I think if you look at the images of the new CS armor and be honest with yourself, that stuff is going to be hard to cover to look like anything but what it is, with out spending alot of money or effort. But, to each his own.

doesn't matter how deep they are. all you need is to fill in the are the the thickness of the raised portion (which the armor is already designed to accommodate) plus some very minor amount more. for example, 1 millimeter more.

it will, therefore, be 1 millimeter larger around than it should be. that is all. it is not going to be this gigantic bulging mass of armor, because it doesn't need to be. unless the armor looks like a fat suit with elastics squeezing the joints on a dead boy, it still will not look like that after you've finished.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It does matter how deep they are, unless you're talking about just sarran wrapping it and leaving air pockets under it. *shakes head* It's absurd. You're not going to just 'wrap a present' and have it be functional on this. If there's 2 inch vally between each rib you have to fill that in up to the top and then smooth it out. You can't just stretch stuff over it. And even if you do, it's going to mess with the dexterity of the stuff.

[Faceless Dude]

There's a hotel in Ciudad Juarez, or El Paso, from Vampire Kingdoms, in which the entire guard force that protects the property/customers is wearing CS armor - even painted it red. While I believe it should be hard to acquire, if a hotel is able to purchase dozens of suits to equip its security personnel, it doesn't seem like it actually is.

I just scanned through my copy of VK and couldnt find reference to any establishment that has a security force clad in Dead Boy armor, red or any other color. Page number please?

Ha, looks like I was wrong...I'll admit that...maybe I made that part up as I was fleshing out the town a bit...my mistake, however, they following groups do use Coalition equipment and some are not really in a position where they would come across it normally...begging the question where/how do they get it.

Pg. 55, the Muluc Kingdom was able to acquire 24 suits of SAMAS and a handful of Mechs.

Pg. 57, the Tampico Protectorate got their hands on a Spider-Skull Walker...on the east coast of southern Mexico.

Pg. 60, El Paso Gang, the K-9s use Coalition Armor.
Pg. 62, El Paso Gang, the Trogs use Coalition Armor.
Pg. 63, El Paso Gang, the Hammers use Coalition Armor.

Pg. 69, Ciudad Juarez Gang, the Subs use Coalition Armor.
Pg. 70, Ciudad Juarez Gang, the Psykes use Coalition Armor.
Pg. 72, Ciudad Juarez Gang, the Skivers use Coalition Armor.
Pg. 75, Ciudad Juarez Gang, the Night Masters used Coalition Armor.

Pg. 103, Reid's Rangerd posses several Coalition Vehicles and 17 suits of SAMAS Armor. States that the equipment has been stolen, which is odd...why would Reid's Rangers travel hundreds of miles north to raid Coalition Armories? Unless Coalition Equipment can be commonly found in Mexico.

Does it mention that Reid's group stole the equipment personally? Plenty of people are using stolen CS gear courtesy of the Black Market and general market movement of it from place to place. Seems like there's a lot of it floating around for people to get ahold of one way or another. Plus given much of it's just restyled pre-Cataclysm stuff at least some of it's just gear made by others and just looks like a CS armor because they're using the same designs (at least for older models).

First addressing Julian Michael's info about the various gangs, you are greatly overstating their use of CS armor. It states, in each case, 3 or 4 preffered or common armor types that gang memebers can have, one of which is CS armor. So it isn't as if every Gang in Texan and Mexico is looting CS armories for gear, it's one option among many. As a comparison, in the Rifts Main book, it lists, as a valid armor option, CS Dead Boy Armor in the standard equipment of the Borg, Crazy, Cyber-Knight, Headhunter, and City Rat. Maybe more, but after checking all those I got bored

And in a point support Nightmask and how RR get's their CS gear, theire is a HUGE Black Market presence in El Paso and Juarez. Wouldn't surprise me at all if that's where it came from

[Faceless Dude]

Going back to the original question about the availability of CS weapons and armor, I think it's going to vary by location as well as mentality of the area. The Magic Zone is close to CS territories, but there is not a great CS presence. So I think that it would be somewhat available (especially after Tolkeen), and it might be considered a badge of honor to some to wear it, whether earned or just paid for. In the Western Frontier, I think that it would be more scarce, as you're pretty far away for the CS, but there would be less stigma, because of said presence. But I also think that the mentality of your consumer might be important here too. There are going to be plenty of Mercs and hard men who are going to carry as much CS gear as they can in front of as many CS as they can, because some guys just can't stop saying "come at me, bro".

[Shark_Force]

It does matter how deep they are, unless you're talking about just sarran wrapping it and leaving air pockets under it. *shakes head* It's absurd. You're not going to just 'wrap a present' and have it be functional on this. If there's 2 inch vally between each rib you have to fill that in up to the top and then smooth it out. You can't just stretch stuff over it. And even if you do, it's going to mess with the dexterity of the stuff.

you can fill it with something that essentially weighs barely more than air, what's your point? load it up with styrofoam. coat that with something sturdy enough to resist scratches. no, the added material won't provide (significant) added protection. so what? it *will* cover up the armor effectively, and that's all we've been talking about.

as to how it's going to mess with the dexterity, that's a load of BS. it already sticks out that much. when you add the covering material, you're making it stick out an extra millimeter. that isn't going to make it suddenly an extremely clumsy, bulky suit of armor unless it was already an extremely clumsy, bulky suit of armor to begin with.

[Pepsi Jedi]

So you're covering your armor with Styrofoam... ok smart guy what happens the first time..... ANYTHING touches it and starts taking out chuncks of your filler or scraping it off or denting it back in? Or you sit down. Or move... and it compacts your Styrofoam... or a twig ripps out chunks of it?

It's absurd. You'd have to be majorly retarded to see something like that and not go "Hey look. That idiot covered CS armor with Styrofoam and saran wrap to try and hide what it is. Someone shoot that fool".

The CS Armor has a very specific silhouette. You can tell it from a distance. Sticking Styrofoam in the cracks is just going to make you look stupid, as befitting anyone stupid enough to try it.

But hey. *shrugs* Do what ya want.

[SkyeFyre]

Why does everyone immediately jump to covering their armor with plastic and styrofoam? Am I the only person here that's just thinking... cloth? With all the D-Bees and large beings on Rifts Earth, I don't think it'd be hard to come across a larger jacket/hood/poncho/whatever that's cloth. That'd work a lot better than plastic or styrofoam.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Why does everyone immediately jump to covering their armor with plastic and styrofoam? Am I the only person here that's just thinking... cloth? With all the D-Bees and large beings on Rifts Earth, I don't think it'd be hard to come across a larger jacket/hood/poncho/whatever that's cloth. That'd work a lot better than plastic or styrofoam.

While not a bad idea it'd come in either of two ways (( Just casually thinking about it)) 1) It'd cover like a poncho. Which wouldn't really do much to change the distinctive silhouette or helmet of the gear. Nor would it cover the arms and legs.

or 2) it'd be more covering but also more constrictive. Wearing clothes over full environmental body armor has to be incredibly awkward. Again, heavy body armor is tough to get around in, in the best of times. Wearing clothes over it would just hamper your movement more. And like the others. the first time you took any sort of damage the cloth is going to be ripped away or burned away revealing you for what you're wearing anyway.

[Nightmask]

Why does everyone immediately jump to covering their armor with plastic and styrofoam? Am I the only person here that's just thinking... cloth? With all the D-Bees and large beings on Rifts Earth, I don't think it'd be hard to come across a larger jacket/hood/poncho/whatever that's cloth. That'd work a lot better than plastic or styrofoam.

Probably because just putting clothes on it won't do as much to make someone think it's not CS armor ('hey buddy take that off so I can see what you're wearing!'), whereas something that looks like it's part of the armor would leave someone thinking it's not CS armor to begin with.

[The Baron of chaos]

Why does everyone immediately jump to covering their armor with plastic and styrofoam? Am I the only person here that's just thinking... cloth? With all the D-Bees and large beings on Rifts Earth, I don't think it'd be hard to come across a larger jacket/hood/poncho/whatever that's cloth. That'd work a lot better than plastic or styrofoam.

Probably because just putting clothes on it won't do as much to make someone think it's not CS armor ('hey buddy take that off so I can see what you're wearing!'), whereas something that looks like it's part of the armor would leave someone thinking it's not CS armor to begin with.

Yes, while not the easiest solutions, trying to personalize and "disguise" one's own armor do better than covering it - hidiing the skull theme could be a simle solution. And again ponchos and long coats, the only viable solutions, arevery suspect for any sort of militia, as they make easier to hide stuff. And you cna't wear them always and everywhere...

[Shark_Force]

So you're covering your armor with Styrofoam... ok smart guy what happens the first time..... ANYTHING touches it and starts taking out chuncks of your filler or scraping it off or denting it back in? Or you sit down. Or move... and it compacts your Styrofoam... or a twig ripps out chunks of it?

It's absurd. You'd have to be majorly retarded to see something like that and not go "Hey look. That idiot covered CS armor with Styrofoam and saran wrap to try and hide what it is. Someone shoot that fool".

The CS Armor has a very specific silhouette. You can tell it from a distance. Sticking Styrofoam in the cracks is just going to make you look stupid, as befitting anyone stupid enough to try it.

But hey. *shrugs* Do what ya want.

and this is where the tougher coating on top of conventional SDC plastic comes in, which i have mentioned many times. lightweight filler, simple plastic coating over top, and it's disguised.

no, it won't disguise it once you're being attacked. but at that point, SOMEONE IS TRYING TO KILL YOU. who cares if the stuff underneath is showing? this is like being in a car that someone in firing a machine-gun at and thinking "oh man, they're going to ruin the paint job on it". you have bigger troubles at that point than the fact that people can tell you're wearing disguised CS armor.

it *will* stand up to routine use, and even if some of it comes off it won't necessarily be immediately obvious what it is. think the kind of materials they use to make modern bicycle helmets (the cheap kind, not the fancy racing ones). very light weight, tough enough to withstand a bit of abuse, not enough to stop a bullet, but not going to shred apart if you walk through a few bushes either.

the way you're acting, you'd think that shoulder pads are a proprietary CS technology that nobody else has managed to figure out. the silhouette is not that unique.

[Nightmask]

So you're covering your armor with Styrofoam... ok smart guy what happens the first time..... ANYTHING touches it and starts taking out chuncks of your filler or scraping it off or denting it back in? Or you sit down. Or move... and it compacts your Styrofoam... or a twig ripps out chunks of it?

It's absurd. You'd have to be majorly retarded to see something like that and not go "Hey look. That idiot covered CS armor with Styrofoam and saran wrap to try and hide what it is. Someone shoot that fool".

The CS Armor has a very specific silhouette. You can tell it from a distance. Sticking Styrofoam in the cracks is just going to make you look stupid, as befitting anyone stupid enough to try it.

But hey. *shrugs* Do what ya want.

and this is where the tougher coating on top of conventional SDC plastic comes in, which i have mentioned many times. lightweight filler, simple plastic coating over top, and it's disguised.

no, it won't disguise it once you're being attacked. but at that point, SOMEONE IS TRYING TO KILL YOU. who cares if the stuff underneath is showing? this is like being in a car that someone in firing a machine-gun at and thinking "oh man, they're going to ruin the paint job on it". you have bigger troubles at that point than the fact that people can tell you're wearing disguised CS armor.

it *will* stand up to routine use, and even if some of it comes off it won't necessarily be immediately obvious what it is. think the kind of materials they use to make modern bicycle helmets (the cheap kind, not the fancy racing ones). very light weight, tough enough to withstand a bit of abuse, not enough to stop a bullet, but not going to shred apart if you walk through a few bushes either.

the way you're acting, you'd think that shoulder pads are a proprietary CS technology that nobody else has managed to figure out. the silhouette is not that unique.

Does seem like he's being overly critical. Having some skill in artistry might help in fitting a suit of Body or Power Armor with a way of concealing its manufacturer but any competent engineer ought to be able to attach some concealing armor that someone would just go 'that's some odd armor I wonder who makes it?' rather than 'look at that disguised CS armor!'. I imagine the Black Market even has a sub-division for doing just that for those willing to pay extra to have their newly purchased SAMAS not look enough like a CS SAMAS for anyone to think so.

[Faceless Dude]

I one game many years ago, we "appropriated" a pile of CS tech after their previous owners fell off of a roof onto some bullets. The Weapons we kept, I really don't thank that the CS, outside of their immediate territories, cares if you use their small arms. The armor, we sold to reps at the Black Market. Aboit a year of game time later, while walking through a Bandito Arms shop in Arzno, we saw they were unveilling their latest line of protection: Bandito Arms Undead Boy Armor. They had re-engineered the process and could make armor as tough as the CS but with a more general style.

[Colt47]

So you're covering your armor with Styrofoam... ok smart guy what happens the first time..... ANYTHING touches it and starts taking out chuncks of your filler or scraping it off or denting it back in? Or you sit down. Or move... and it compacts your Styrofoam... or a twig ripps out chunks of it?

It's absurd. You'd have to be majorly retarded to see something like that and not go "Hey look. That idiot covered CS armor with Styrofoam and saran wrap to try and hide what it is. Someone shoot that fool".

The CS Armor has a very specific silhouette. You can tell it from a distance. Sticking Styrofoam in the cracks is just going to make you look stupid, as befitting anyone stupid enough to try it.

But hey. *shrugs* Do what ya want.

and this is where the tougher coating on top of conventional SDC plastic comes in, which i have mentioned many times. lightweight filler, simple plastic coating over top, and it's disguised.

no, it won't disguise it once you're being attacked. but at that point, SOMEONE IS TRYING TO KILL YOU. who cares if the stuff underneath is showing? this is like being in a car that someone in firing a machine-gun at and thinking "oh man, they're going to ruin the paint job on it". you have bigger troubles at that point than the fact that people can tell you're wearing disguised CS armor.

it *will* stand up to routine use, and even if some of it comes off it won't necessarily be immediately obvious what it is. think the kind of materials they use to make modern bicycle helmets (the cheap kind, not the fancy racing ones). very light weight, tough enough to withstand a bit of abuse, not enough to stop a bullet, but not going to shred apart if you walk through a few bushes either.

the way you're acting, you'd think that shoulder pads are a proprietary CS technology that nobody else has managed to figure out. the silhouette is not that unique.

Does seem like he's being overly critical. Having some skill in artistry might help in fitting a suit of Body or Power Armor with a way of concealing its manufacturer but any competent engineer ought to be able to attach some concealing armor that someone would just go 'that's some odd armor I wonder who makes it?' rather than 'look at that disguised CS armor!'. I imagine the Black Market even has a sub-division for doing just that for those willing to pay extra to have their newly purchased SAMAS not look enough like a CS SAMAS for anyone to think so.

I'll be pulling Pepsi Jedi and say that the SAMAS is far too distinct as a design. Cosmetically changing the way it looks wont change the fact it has intakes in x and y positions among other details. Heck, Northern Gun had to actually get specific licenses just to make the Eagle flying PA, and it looks nothing like a SAMAS.

The only reason I said the dead boy armor could be modded enough that it would be difficult to tell it was once dead boy armor is due to other popular armor using the same plating positions.

[Dog_O_War]

I think you all are failing to reconize how armor works. Sure you can just bolt or weld metal to the out side but that's not going to work well. Heavy armor already gives penalties. Adding to that is going to jack those up.

This "heavy" armour is only classified as heavy; both gladiator and crusader armour weigh more, but offer less of a penalty than the new heavy deadboy stuff. Thing is, the CS somehow cut down comparable weight and added MDC. This means that rolling around in a new deadboy suit modified with additional MDC and weight would make you no more uncomfortable than crusader - which is likely what you would've been wearing in the interim.

The CS armor isn't just painted a certain way.

Can you site a source for this, or are you just taking the pictures as litany?

It's designed from the bottom of the boots to the top of the skull helmet to look like CS armor.

Besides asking for you to site a source again, this is not true in any of the pictures of the new deadboy stuff; there is no "skull helmet". The only skull on the armour (by the pictures) is on the chest.

You've got the bone stuff from the boots on up the legs, all of the chest and back the large shoulder pads and the helmet. "Adding some filler" will look like someone took CS armor.. and added Filler.

So you happen to know all possible ways of adding filler?
My, you are quite the renaissance man

And it's going to add weight to the armor. Not just a little but from the bottom of your feet to the top of your head.

I wear heavier winter gear. I have work boots that weigh more than 12 Lbs (as heavy as the light model). Unless the extra weight happens to be 10+ Lbs to the head, I think that an average person will be able to handle it without any ill effect.

This stuff isn't like wearing footbal pads guys.

It's more like wearing light hockey gear actually.

It's full environmental armor from head to toe. it's going to be pretty uncomfortable,

Actually, its new design is more comfortable than the old stuff, and since it protects you from climate, smells, and noises, it is probably more comfortable than anything and everything besides casual clothing.

heavy and what not to start with. You're (( Conceivably) A military guy. Trained to accept that discomfort and suuch but adding pounds and pounds of stuff to try and cover the armor is going to suck. It's going to make it harder to move. You'll end up waddeling around the battle field and then.. shot more because you're slower, less agile and carrying all that extra weight.

The actual weight of the suit has (apparently) no effect on the overall agility of the wearer; the previously mentioned suits of Gladiator and Crusader EBA both weigh more and have less of a penalty to everything besides climb compared to the new heavy deadboy.

[SkyeFyre]

Ok, I see everyone's point on my cloth idea. In my game it would work as people tend to remove helmets come time to enter a town. Also as a lot of the time my game takes place in Canada during the winter, it's normal to see people rather bundled up. So yeah, I guess it's a question of geography.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I think you all are failing to reconize how armor works. Sure you can just bolt or weld metal to the out side but that's not going to work well. Heavy armor already gives penalties. Adding to that is going to jack those up.

This "heavy" armour is only classified as heavy; both gladiator and crusader armour weigh more, but offer less of a penalty than the new heavy deadboy stuff. Thing is, the CS somehow cut down comparable weight and added MDC. This means that rolling around in a new deadboy suit modified with additional MDC and weight would make you no more uncomfortable than crusader - which is likely what you would've been wearing in the interim.

You're utterly failing to take into account the thicknessof the armor and the difficulty to move around in body armor. Especially the heavy stuff. Adding weight to it will add to the encumberance and the difficulty to move. Unless you're superman, moving around in stuff like this is hard. You speak like someone that's never even put on foot ball pads, much less full body armor. It is harder to move around in it. Bolting on extra plates will mess with the balance and ease of movement. No matter how much you go 'Nu uh! I can move in anything! I'm HEMAN!!"

The CS armor isn't just painted a certain way.

Can you site a source for this, or are you just taking the pictures as litany?

[/quote]

Yeah. I'm taking dozens and dozens of pictures as litany. They all show the contured ribs and the multi layered aspects of the armor. How parts stick out and how it's not just smooth plastic plates all over. How it's designed on purpose to look like it does. Of course you can ignore every bit of artwork ever done for it and claim it's not so, but then you're ignoring the canon sorces of the images of the armor. That's on you.

It's designed from the bottom of the boots to the top of the skull helmet to look like CS armor.

Besides asking for you to site a source again, this is not true in any of the pictures of the new deadboy stuff; there is no "skull helmet". The only skull on the armour (by the pictures) is on the chest.

Have you not looked at the books in the past.. 10 years? Yes it is. I cite the entire CS War Campaign and all the books after that show the Armor. If you want page numbers I can get out a stack of books and give you 50 but it's pretty absurd. The helmet IS a skull helmet. it's just got the top as a simi translucent dome to aid in vision. The bottom is still sculpted as cheek bones and a nose grouve with the jaw sculpted out. Heck look at my Avatar. It's right there. There's the Skull on the chest. The Sculpted ribs. Down the arms there's the 'bone' astetic over the forearm guards the hands. Down from the knees to the boots. It's down the back as spine designs and at the hips. You're just going 'NuUh!" when it's clearly shown in all the illistrations and described in the write ups.

CS War Machine, Page 99 under 'New CS Body armor"

"The armor plating and decorativ features have been designed to give the suit a frightening skeletal appearance with the idea that it will unnerve and intimidate the enemy"

On the next page (100) "The light areas of the Skeleton portions of the armor are light gray in color, the material is light sensitive and darkens 20% in low light to prevent giving the enemy a nice light target to aim for during night attacks"

And more importantly to the discussion at hand just below that

"Prowl penalty. -10% in CA3 light armor, -20% in CA 4 Stanard armor, and CA 5 Juicer armor, -30% in CA 6 Heavy armor."

Now considering that prowl starts at 25% at first level, and is -not- an ooc skill of the grunt, meaning if he has it, he's taken it as an OOC related or secondary with no bonous... that would give the average cs grunt ----- if he has prowl---- a 5% chance to prowl at first level. Or an experienced CS grunt at 4th level to have a whopping 20% prowl ability (( Again IF he's taken the skill)) meaning he can be sneaky in armor one in 5 times?

You go messing with the armor and covering it or filling it in and what not and that's going to jack that 20% penalty way up.

You've got the bone stuff from the boots on up the legs, all of the chest and back the large shoulder pads and the helmet. "Adding some filler" will look like someone took CS armor.. and added Filler.

So you happen to know all possible ways of adding filler?
My, you are quite the renaissance man

I can look at armor and know that it would add to weight and decrease the mobility. Yeah. You can roll your eyes all you want. You ever been in full body armor?

And it's going to add weight to the armor. Not just a little but from the bottom of your feet to the top of your head.

I wear heavier winter gear. I have work boots that weigh more than 12 Lbs (as heavy as the light model). Unless the extra weight happens to be 10+ Lbs to the head, I think that an average person will be able to handle it without any ill effect.

I live in the UP of MI. I have heavy winter gear too. It's hard to move around in. You're surely not going to run any races in it. Much less be awesome in combat in itt. Can you if you have to? yeah but you're highly limited. Now imagine wearing all your heavy winter gear..... with another layer of heavy winter gear over it. And imagine instead of cloth, it's hard ceramic or plastic plates... You'd hardly be able to move.

This stuff isn't like wearing footbal pads guys.

It's more like wearing light hockey gear actually.

Really? Light hockey gear? Light Hockey gear covers you 100% from the bottom of your feet to the top of your head? Covering every inch of your body in interconneccted armor plates? Oh wait. No it doesn't. Not even close. You have shoulder guards, maybe a light chest guard, a half helmet and gloves, skates.....

Nice try. Not even remotely close.

It's full environmental armor from head to toe. it's going to be pretty uncomfortable,

Actually, its new design is more comfortable than the old stuff, and since it protects you from climate, smells, and noises, it is probably more comfortable than anything and everything besides casual clothing.

It's still body armor. "More comfortable than the old stuff" is relative. It's still uncomfortable. hard to move around in (( standard armor gives you a -20 prowl ability)) To even say something like your above statement shows you've never been in any sort of body armor what so ever. You're speaking out of ignorance.

heavy and what not to start with. You're (( Conceivably) A military guy. Trained to accept that discomfort and suuch but adding pounds and pounds of stuff to try and cover the armor is going to suck. It's going to make it harder to move. You'll end up waddeling around the battle field and then.. shot more because you're slower, less agile and carrying all that extra weight.

The actual weight of the suit has (apparently) no effect on the overall agility of the wearer; the previously mentioned suits of Gladiator and Crusader EBA both weigh more and have less of a penalty to everything besides climb compared to the new heavy deadboy.

You're speaking of a "Kevin and the guys are a bunch of RPG guys that have likely never been in any sort of fight beyond that concerning lunch money" and "Real world military application" This has come up dozens and dozens of times in the Palladium universe. It should be pointed out, that that penalty is still there, and if it's not due to weight it's due to the difficulty in moving around in the stylized armor. Adding weight and depth to it isn't going to help you move. Not here on earth anyway. Making it heavier and thicker is only going to slow you down. Not speed you up.

Stop arguing just to argue. If you have heavy armor that gives you -20% prowl penalties on the best of days.... ADDING WEIGHT and depth it's not designed for.. isn't going to make it easier to move. It's GOING to have an effect. Making the heavy crap you're wearing, even heavier is going to make it even harder to move around in.

[Dog_O_War]

You're utterly failing to take into account the thicknessof the armor

Please site the source where it says thickness hinders mobility. So far, the game has given comparison to mobility and weight in multiple areas, and that seems to be the only qualifier, save for design (which is only hinted at). Never is "thickness" mentioned.

and the difficulty to move around in body armor. Especially the heavy stuff. Adding weight to it will add to the encumberance and the difficulty to move. Unless you're superman, moving around in stuff like this is hard. You speak like someone that's never even put on foot ball pads, much less full body armor.

Well one thing is for certain; I've never worn full environmental body armour.
Perhaps we could get someone to post here as to what wearing such armour is like.... oh wait, that kind of thing doesn't exist I guess we should just leave the inferences as to how difficult it is to wear the stuff to the book.

The CS armor isn't just painted a certain way.

Can you site a source for this, or are you just taking the pictures as litany?

Yeah. I'm taking dozens and dozens of pictures as litany. They all show the contured ribs and the multi layered aspects of the armor. How parts stick out and how it's not just smooth plastic plates all over. How it's designed on purpose to look like it does. Of course you can ignore every bit of artwork ever done for it and claim it's not so, but then you're ignoring the canon sorces of the images of the armor. That's on you.

Images are not canon sources; they are more often than not inaccurate (re: artistic licence) depictions of the items in-game. They do not override the written descriptions, nor do they stand as factual given that more than once an artist has taken the same image and given it his own take. Or perhaps you can explain why the CA-6's helmet has the dual lenses close together, with the upper one being fairly centered (CWC pg. 101), while the pictured by Mark Evans in the coloured section of R:UE has that lens further apart and nearly parallel with the bottom one? Which one do we go with; the original, or the new one?
Or maybe pics just aren't canon.

It's designed from the bottom of the boots to the top of the skull helmet to look like CS armor.

Besides asking for you to site a source again, this is not true in any of the pictures of the new deadboy stuff; there is no "skull helmet". The only skull on the armour (by the pictures) is on the chest.

Have you not looked at the books in the past.. 10 years? Yes it is. I cite the entire CS War Campaign and all the books after that show the Armor. If you want page numbers I can get out a stack of books and give you 50 but it's pretty absurd. The helmet IS a skull helmet. it's just got the top as a simi translucent dome to aid in vision. The bottom is still sculpted as cheek bones and a nose grouve with the jaw sculpted out. Heck look at my Avatar. It's right there. There's the Skull on the chest. The Sculpted ribs. Down the arms there's the 'bone' astetic over the forearm guards the hands. Down from the knees to the boots. It's down the back as spine designs and at the hips.

I'm not questioning the motif of the armour, nor even the decorative white parts.
I'm stating flat-out that your arguement is unsound. You are providing evidence that contains no actual facts; this makes you inherently wrong. I recommend that you separate your opinions from the facts.

You're just going 'NuUh!" when it's clearly shown in all the illistrations and described in the write ups.

This is where your arguement lacks validity; the thickness changes from illustration to illustration, and is not given a concrete number within the description. For all we know, the decor of the armour may be little more than a few millimetres thick. Because we can only speculate on the thickness, saying, "the armour is waaay thick" is not a fact.

You've got the bone stuff from the boots on up the legs, all of the chest and back the large shoulder pads and the helmet. "Adding some filler" will look like someone took CS armor.. and added Filler.

So you happen to know all possible ways of adding filler?
My, you are quite the renaissance man

I can look at armor and know that it would add to weight and decrease the mobility. Yeah. You can roll your eyes all you want. You ever been in full body armor?

Have you ever been in any EBA?

And it's going to add weight to the armor. Not just a little but from the bottom of your feet to the top of your head.

I wear heavier winter gear. I have work boots that weigh more than 12 Lbs (as heavy as the light model). Unless the extra weight happens to be 10+ Lbs to the head, I think that an average person will be able to handle it without any ill effect.

I live in the UP of MI. I have heavy winter gear too. It's hard to move around in. You're surely not going to run any races in it. Much less be awesome in combat in itt. Can you if you have to? yeah but you're highly limited. Now imagine wearing all your heavy winter gear..... with another layer of heavy winter gear over it. And imagine instead of cloth, it's hard ceramic or plastic plates... You'd hardly be able to move.

You're right. Now if only they could streamline and climate-control said clothing, and knock like 10-20 Lbs. off the stuff... Kinda like the new heavy deadboy stuff
Also, your "heavy winter" gear likely has nothing on mine. Even at the highest point in all of Michigan I'm still 1000ft above you, and you'd have to live on the top of Mt. Arvon. Not to mention being 4-10 points of latitude above your entire state. Just sayin'.

This stuff isn't like wearing footbal pads guys.

It's more like wearing light hockey gear actually.

Really? Light hockey gear? Light Hockey gear covers you 100% from the bottom of your feet to the top of your head? Covering every inch of your body in interconneccted armor plates? Oh wait. No it doesn't. Not even close. You have shoulder guards, maybe a light chest guard, a half helmet and gloves, skates.....

Get some sense. It certainly covers you better and more fully than the football gear you mentioned.

Nice try. Not even remotely close.

I was speaking of the weight and coverage.

It's still body armor. "More comfortable than the old stuff" is relative. It's still uncomfortable. hard to move around in (( standard armor gives you a -20 prowl ability)) To even say something like your above statement shows you've never been in any sort of body armor what so ever. You're speaking out of ignorance.

I was stating that it is a non-existent body armour; there is no way we could speak of any actual accuracy regarding it. Save for what the book tells us that is.

You're speaking of a "Kevin and the guys are a bunch of RPG guys that have likely never been in any sort of fight beyond that concerning lunch money" and "Real world military application" This has come up dozens and dozens of times in the Palladium universe. It should be pointed out, that that penalty is still there, and if it's not due to weight it's due to the difficulty in moving around in the stylized armor. Adding weight and depth to it isn't going to help you move. Not here on earth anyway. Making it heavier and thicker is only going to slow you down. Not speed you up.

No. I leave real-world gear and situations out of it, save for a reasonable comparison here and there. I'm pointing out the math errors and gear-stats overlooks they have done. Crusader armour is physically heavier and does not provide as much MDC. MDC amount supposedly sets apart light armours from heavy armours (see armour sensor spoofers out of Juicer Uprising). The point of it all is that you are not providing any facts to the messed up system we are to use and compare things to.

Stop arguing just to argue. If you have heavy armor that gives you -20% prowl penalties on the best of days.... ADDING WEIGHT and depth it's not designed for.. isn't going to make it easier to move. It's GOING to have an effect. Making the heavy crap you're wearing, even heavier is going to make it even harder to move around in.

Adding 20% more MDC has no effect on mobility; so sayeth the Operator OCC and R:UE. That fact stands boldface in opposition to what you are stating.
Please provide some facts next time, because all you've provided so far is what you're accusing me of; arguing just to argue.

[Comrade Corsarius]

There's a pic in... Lone star I think, of a guy in stolen CS armor and it's painted with flames, and when you look at it the first thing you do is go "ha! That guy is in stolen CS armor!"

Yes, that's Emperor Sabre Lasar. He's a dragon.

In CS Navy, the picture of a Merchant Sailor is wearing CA-4 armour as well, although without the helmet it really doesn't look quite so distinctive.

[Pepsi Jedi]

You're utterly failing to take into account the thicknessof the armor

Please site the source where it says thickness hinders mobility. So far, the game has given comparison to mobility and weight in multiple areas, and that seems to be the only qualifier, save for design (which is only hinted at). Never is "thickness" mentioned.

You're saying to site a source that need not be done. If you've ever wore any sort of body armor or protective gear it's clear. The bigger and thicker it is, the harder it is to move. The heavier it is. The harder it is to move. I cite real life. Physics and common sense. You're trying to be snarky.

and the difficulty to move around in body armor. Especially the heavy stuff. Adding weight to it will add to the encumberance and the difficulty to move. Unless you're superman, moving around in stuff like this is hard. You speak like someone that's never even put on foot ball pads, much less full body armor.

Well one thing is for certain; I've never worn full environmental body armour.
Perhaps we could get someone to post here as to what wearing such armour is like.... oh wait, that kind of thing doesn't exist I guess we should just leave the inferences as to how difficult it is to wear the stuff to the book.

DURRRR HURRRR RIIIIGHT!! You make it as if there isn't armor now. Protective coverings now. Full environmental suits now.. Oh wait.. *GASP* There is! There's been armor for centuries. There's modern body armor. There's modern environmental suits.

Know what? Ever since it's inception, it's been uncomfortable... back from boiled hides to metal full suits that knights wore, all the way up to modern flack jackets with environmental suits over it. It's hot, uncomfortable, and hard to move around in. Don't believe me? Go to a SCA event. Try some on. Go to a modern martial arts dojo and put on the full padded suit. Go to a high end military surplus store and suit up.

Again you're going "Oh well that's future science fiction stuff. You don't know so shut up" It's still body armor. It's still going on humans. It's still hard plates with little give to them jointed together to cover the entire body. It still is encumbrance. It's still harder to move around in than if you didn't have it on.

You're argueing just to argue. Again.

The CS armor isn't just painted a certain way.

Can you site a source for this, or are you just taking the pictures as litany?

Yeah. I'm taking dozens and dozens of pictures as litany. They all show the contured ribs and the multi layered aspects of the armor. How parts stick out and how it's not just smooth plastic plates all over. How it's designed on purpose to look like it does. Of course you can ignore every bit of artwork ever done for it and claim it's not so, but then you're ignoring the canon sorces of the images of the armor. That's on you.

Images are not canon sources;

They are when they're in canon books. Most especially when the book is about the new Armor and arms of a military. These aren't fan creations or sketches on Deviant art.

they are more often than not inaccurate (re: artistic licence) depictions of the items in-game.

They're published by the company in the books. They're not fan creations on the web man.

They do not override the written descriptions,

The written descriptions say the armor has skeletal aspects and describes them as such, as well. I cited the source above.

nor do they stand as factual given that more than once an artist has taken the same image and given it his own take.

Yes. Different artists do draw the same things differently, but if you look through tthe books the consistancies are there. That's what they are. Different artistic expressions of the same thing.

Or perhaps you can explain why the CA-6's helmet has the dual lenses close together, with the upper one being fairly centered (CWC pg. 101), while the pictured by Mark Evans in the coloured section of R:UE has that lens further apart and nearly parallel with the bottom one? Which one do we go with; the original, or the new one?
Or maybe pics just aren't canon.

Simple. Different manufacturing centers having different design applications. The armor made in Lone star might have a few slight variances from the armor made in Chi Town. Simple as that. It's stated in more than one books that different cities contribute to the overall CS War Machine, so... it's that simple. The assembly line in one city puts them on one way, the one in another has a very slight variation.

And not a snarky jerk answer.

It's designed from the bottom of the boots to the top of the skull helmet to look like CS armor.

Besides asking for you to site a source again, this is not true in any of the pictures of the new deadboy stuff; there is no "skull helmet". The only skull on the armour (by the pictures) is on the chest.

Have you not looked at the books in the past.. 10 years? Yes it is. I cite the entire CS War Campaign and all the books after that show the Armor. If you want page numbers I can get out a stack of books and give you 50 but it's pretty absurd. The helmet IS a skull helmet. it's just got the top as a simi translucent dome to aid in vision. The bottom is still sculpted as cheek bones and a nose grouve with the jaw sculpted out. Heck look at my Avatar. It's right there. There's the Skull on the chest. The Sculpted ribs. Down the arms there's the 'bone' astetic over the forearm guards the hands. Down from the knees to the boots. It's down the back as spine designs and at the hips.

I'm not questioning the motif of the armour, nor even the decorative white parts.
I'm stating flat-out that your arguement is unsound. You are providing evidence that contains no actual facts; this makes you inherently wrong. I recommend that you separate your opinions from the facts.

The facts remain. The armor is designed on purpose to look like that. You claim there is no Skull helmet, and there clearlly is. Your statements are lies. Mine are shown repeatedly dozens if not 100s of times over.

You're just going 'NuUh!" when it's clearly shown in all the illistrations and described in the write ups.

This is where your arguement lacks validity; the thickness changes from illustration to illustration, and is not given a concrete number within the description. For all we know, the decor of the armour may be little more than a few millimetres thick. Because we can only speculate on the thickness, saying, "the armour is waaay thick" is not a fact.

Going off what's shown is not speculation. You're claiming all the art in all the books isn't cannon, is absurd.

You've got the bone stuff from the boots on up the legs, all of the chest and back the large shoulder pads and the helmet. "Adding some filler" will look like someone took CS armor.. and added Filler.

So you happen to know all possible ways of adding filler?
My, you are quite the renaissance man

I can look at armor and know that it would add to weight and decrease the mobility. Yeah. You can roll your eyes all you want. You ever been in full body armor?

Have you ever been in any EBA?

I've been in many different types of armor. Both in SCA, out of it. In Martial arts, in Kendo, in military armor. Yeah... Have I suited up in Dead boy armor? no. But I do have a frame of reference. You're acting like logical extrapolation based on known factors of human condition can't be known.

And it's going to add weight to the armor. Not just a little but from the bottom of your feet to the top of your head.

I wear heavier winter gear. I have work boots that weigh more than 12 Lbs (as heavy as the light model). Unless the extra weight happens to be 10+ Lbs to the head, I think that an average person will be able to handle it without any ill effect.

I live in the UP of MI. I have heavy winter gear too. It's hard to move around in. You're surely not going to run any races in it. Much less be awesome in combat in itt. Can you if you have to? yeah but you're highly limited. Now imagine wearing all your heavy winter gear..... with another layer of heavy winter gear over it. And imagine instead of cloth, it's hard ceramic or plastic plates... You'd hardly be able to move.

You're right. Now if only they could streamline and climate-control said clothing, and knock like 10-20 Lbs. off the stuff... Kinda like the new heavy deadboy stuff
Also, your "heavy winter" gear likely has nothing on mine. Even at the highest point in all of Michigan I'm still 1000ft above you, and you'd have to live on the top of Mt. Arvon. Not to mention being 4-10 points of latitude above your entire state. Just sayin'.

It hits -35 here sometimes in the winter.... How cold is it there?

This stuff isn't like wearing footbal pads guys.

It's more like wearing light hockey gear actually.

Really? Light hockey gear? Light Hockey gear covers you 100% from the bottom of your feet to the top of your head? Covering every inch of your body in interconneccted armor plates? Oh wait. No it doesn't. Not even close. You have shoulder guards, maybe a light chest guard, a half helmet and gloves, skates.....

Get some sense. It certainly covers you better and more fully than the football gear you mentioned.

No.. Not really. Football has thhicker shoulder pads, leg pads, sure they don't wear thhick gloves but they have full helmets too.

Both of them are a far step from full body armor that's interconnected so much that it's envriomental. My point was that wearing dead boy armor was NOT like wearing foot ball pads. It's not like wearing hockey pads either.

Nice try. Not even remotely close.

I was speaking of the weight and coverage.

It's still not even remotely close. You're talking aboout wearing shoulder pads, gloves and a half helmet to full body armor that covers you crown to toe and is all interconnected to keep even AIR out, and is hard ceramic plates, plastic and metal.

It's still body armor. "More comfortable than the old stuff" is relative. It's still uncomfortable. hard to move around in (( standard armor gives you a -20 prowl ability)) To even say something like your above statement shows you've never been in any sort of body armor what so ever. You're speaking out of ignorance.

I was stating that it is a non-existent body armour; there is no way we could speak of any actual accuracy regarding it. Save for what the book tells us that is.

Yes we can. We're humans. We know what wearing stuff is like. We know the heavier it is, the harder to move. The more restrictive it is, the harder to move. The HARDER it is, the harder it is to move in it.

It's pretty easy to say "If it's head to foot body armor made of ridgid and simi ridged ceramic and plastic and metal plates, that covers me 100% to the point where air can't get in, and it's strong enough to keep out blasts that could blow up a modern battle tank... it's not like wearing a silk scarf and running through the flowers naked."

You're speaking of a "Kevin and the guys are a bunch of RPG guys that have likely never been in any sort of fight beyond that concerning lunch money" and "Real world military application" This has come up dozens and dozens of times in the Palladium universe. It should be pointed out, that that penalty is still there, and if it's not due to weight it's due to the difficulty in moving around in the stylized armor. Adding weight and depth to it isn't going to help you move. Not here on earth anyway. Making it heavier and thicker is only going to slow you down. Not speed you up.

No. I leave real-world gear and situations out of it, save for a reasonable comparison here and there.

So.. in your experience... as a human on planet earth.. if you're wearing something that would already give you a 20% penalty.... adding MORE WEIGHT and MORE MASS and MORE DEPTH to what you're wearing... isn't going to do anything?

Or it'll slow you down and make it harder to move?

I'm pointing out the math errors and gear-stats overlooks they have done. Crusader armour is physically heavier and does not provide as much MDC. MDC amount supposedly sets apart light armours from heavy armours (see armour sensor spoofers out of Juicer Uprising). The point of it all is that you are not providing any facts to the messed up system we are to use and compare things to.

And maybe Crusader armor is designed for better movement? Or maybe that it's heavier because.. it's heavier? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Stop arguing just to argue. If you have heavy armor that gives you -20% prowl penalties on the best of days.... ADDING WEIGHT and depth it's not designed for.. isn't going to make it easier to move. It's GOING to have an effect. Making the heavy crap you're wearing, even heavier is going to make it even harder to move around in.

Adding 20% more MDC has no effect on mobility; so sayeth the Operator OCC and R:UE. That fact stands boldface in opposition to what you are stating.
Please provide some facts next time, because all you've provided so far is what you're accusing me of; arguing just to argue.

Point of fact the RUE doesn't say that under operator. It only says you can add mdc, and the percentage depends on your level. It doesn't say it's weightless. It doesn't account for any of the mechanics of it at all. it just says you can do it.

Under maximize performance it says you can work to reduce weight for something by 10% but it's not connected to the adding of MDC, other than it's in a list of things you can do. You're misrepresenting it.

Wearing heavy stuff that's hard to move around in (( Heavy armor with 20% prowl penalties)), and adding weight and depth to it, will make it even harder too move around in. FACT

That's the way the world works. unless the weight you're adding is an antigravity device, it's going to be harder to move around in heavy gear, made heavier, than it was before.

It's common sense. Now.. I know it's not always common, but you can't refute that by going "They didn't say adding weight to something makes it heavier" in the book. They didn't define what air is in the book either but the people still breathe it.

[Dog_O_War]

You're saying to site a source that need not be done.

When ever you make a claim as fact, it needs a source.
That means that it need be done.

If you've ever wore any sort of body armor or protective gear it's clear. The bigger and thicker it is, the harder it is to move. The heavier it is. The harder it is to move. I cite real life. Physics and common sense. You're trying to be snarky.

Powered armour disagrees with you. That's a fact too.

DURRRR HURRRR RIIIIGHT!! You make it as if there isn't armor now. Protective coverings now. Full environmental suits now.. Oh wait.. *GASP* There is! There's been armor for centuries. There's modern body armor. There's modern environmental suits.

I didn't know environmental body armour and modern evironmental suits were the exact same thing

Know what? Ever since it's inception, it's been uncomfortable... back from boiled hides to metal full suits that knights wore, all the way up to modern flack jackets with environmental suits over it. It's hot, uncomfortable, and hard to move around in. Don't believe me? Go to a SCA event. Try some on. Go to a modern martial arts dojo and put on the full padded suit. Go to a high end military surplus store and suit up.

Me wearing ancient through our own modern armour has no bearing on the comfort of a space-age armour from centuries in the future; your posit is speculation, not fact.

Again you're going "Oh well that's future science fiction stuff. You don't know so shut up" It's still body armor. It's still going on humans. It's still hard plates with little give to them jointed together to cover the entire body. It still is encumbrance. It's still harder to move around in than if you didn't have it on.

Because you knew I would point this out does not detract from the point being made. All this does (you pointing out that I will adamantly stick to facts) shows that you have nothing factual, not even anything of note to put forth to counter the statements before you.

You're argueing just to argue. Again.

You say this, yet only one of us is using facts to support their position

They are when they're in canon books. Most especially when the book is about the new Armor and arms of a military. These aren't fan creations or sketches on Deviant art.

Oh right. I guess the Iron Bolt Missile vehicle out of Rifts Mercenaries really does have only 2 rows of 5 missile ports for its long-range missiles. My bad. Guess I read the description wrong Not to mention all the other images that are just flat-out different from their descriptions

They're published by the company in the books. They're not fan creations on the web man.

The company also published spelling errors and mistakes; are they canon as well? *facepalm*

The written descriptions say the armor has skeletal aspects and describes them as such, as well. I cited the source above.

I haven't disputed that; You even quoted me saying as much. This is a non-point on your behalf.

Simple. Different manufacturing centers having different design applications. The armor made in Lone star might have a few slight variances from the armor made in Chi Town. Simple as that.

This stands as false and completely your opinion without an ounce of fact until you cite a source.

The assembly line in one city puts them on one way, the one in another has a very slight variation.

And not a snarky jerk answer.

This also stands as false and completely your opinion without an ounce of fact until you cite a source.

The facts remain.

Maybe you could cite some. Some time. Ever. Instead of just making this statement. Or were you pointing out that your arguement disappears and only the facts I've put forth remain?

The armor is designed on purpose to look like that. You claim there is no Skull helmet, and there clearlly is.

Perhaps you can tell me what skull looks like the following;

pg.99, under the heading "New CS Body Armor"... The entire upper part of the helmet is a large, black tinted visor or face-plate made of one-way polyceramic glass that is as strong as mega-damage steel... ...This large transparent face-plate gives the soldier full use of his normal and peripheral vision."

The answer is none.

Your statements are lies.

Please, enlighten everyone as to which of the facts I put forth were "lies".

Going off what's shown is not speculation.

That is correct. That's not speculation, it's just plain being willfully ignorant of the written facts.

You're claiming all the art in all the books isn't cannon, is absurd.

I'm not claiming it; I'm stating that it is a fact the pictures are not canon.

I've been in many different types of armor. Both in SCA, out of it. In Martial arts, in Kendo, in military armor. Yeah... Have I suited up in Dead boy armor? no.

This is perhaps the first factual statement you've made all thread. Cheers to you. Telling the truth isn't that hard, now. Is it?

But I do have a frame of reference. You're acting like logical extrapolation based on known factors of human condition can't be known.

No, I'm saying that we should leave speculation out of it, regardless of how logical it may seem to a poster. Remember, the game isn't based off of logic, and often contradicts what logic would normally dictate.

It hits -35 here sometimes in the winter.... How cold is it there?

Last winter it was around -30 degrees celsius on average. It dipped down to -40ish (most of the time it was -42) for a week with the windchill (the real killer), and hit below -50 one day. And that wasn't the coldest of winters either. Some of the posters on this board from Edmonton will tell you what cold really is

It's still not even remotely close.

Weight-wise it is.

You're talking aboout wearing shoulder pads, gloves and a half helmet to full body armor that covers you crown to toe and is all interconnected to keep even AIR out, and is hard ceramic plates, plastic and metal.

Maybe hockey equipment isn't close to heavy deadboy for coverage, but it's close to some of the EBAs. Urban Warrior for example. The weight plus coverage is closer than actual modern body armour. And no, that is not a joke. The placement of the plastic plates and padded fabric is much closer to many EBA descriptions than a flak-jacket is.

Yes we can. We're humans. We know what wearing stuff is like. We know the heavier it is, the harder to move. The more restrictive it is, the harder to move. The HARDER it is, the harder it is to move in it.

Again, more speculation on your part. Also, this is a false statement; full-plated armour is self-supporting in many locations, and was easier to move in than many of the less-protective medival armours. There are other armour examples like this; this is a design factor that made weight and rigidity less of an issue.

So.. in your experience... as a human on planet earth.. if you're wearing something that would already give you a 20% penalty.... adding MORE WEIGHT and MORE MASS and MORE DEPTH to what you're wearing... isn't going to do anything?

Or it'll slow you down and make it harder to move?

In my experience, it would depend entirely where that weight was added. You add that weight balanced throughout the armour and there's a good chance it will become easier to move in because you've made it balanced. All that decor of the skull motif doesn't exactly shout,"expertly balanced!"

And maybe Crusader armor is designed for better movement? Or maybe that it's heavier because.. it's heavier? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

The name, "Heavy Deadboy" armour is derived not from the weight of the armour, but from the MDC. "Heavy" is a classification based on the amount of MDC (more than 50, apparently), while mobility is derived from weight (and by comparison, design). The weight of "Heavy" deadboy armour does not exceed that of Crusader, yet the penalty is greater for the majority of aspects. Why? We can only speculate. I'd bet on design, but that said; adding 5Lbs worth of weight should have no effect given that heavier armours offer lesser penalties. And backing that up is the Operator OCC ability to increase MDC (which one would assume would add weight as well) by 20%, yet not a single thing is indicative that doing so would also increase mobility penalties.

Or, for the sake of simplicity; adding some weight and/or getting rid of decor offers no tangible penalty.

Point of fact the RUE doesn't say that under operator. It only says you can add mdc, and the percentage depends on your level. It doesn't say it's weightless. It doesn't account for any of the mechanics of it at all. it just says you can do it.

I'll tell you what it does say, "gain MDC".
Now I'll tell you what it doesn't say, "doing so adds penalties to mobility".

Under maximize performance it says you can work to reduce weight for something by 10% but it's not connected to the adding of MDC, other than it's in a list of things you can do. You're misrepresenting it.

I am not. That is something you can do, but it is separate and exclusive to adding MDC. ie: doing one does not mean you're doing the other.

Wearing heavy stuff that's hard to move around in (( Heavy armor with 20% prowl penalties)), and adding weight and depth to it, will make it even harder too move around in. FACT

Please cite the source where is says,"adding weight and depth to an armour will make it even harder to move around in". Remember, our real-life facts are not facts within the game.

That's the way the world works.

Which one are you talking about; Rifts Earth, or rl Earth?
If it's the former, then you are wrong. If it's the latter, then what relevancy does that have on the conversation?

It's common sense. Now.. I know it's not always common, but you can't refute that by going "They didn't say adding weight to something makes it heavier" in the book. They didn't define what air is in the book either but the people still breathe it.

I'm not refuting that; your statement is saying the same thing twice. "adding weight makes it heavier". Yes; that is what happens when you add weight. What I've refuted from the get-go is that it does anything. Just because you're adding 5Lbs worth of MDC material does not mean you're also adding mobility penalties, and I've quoted page and section in the book to support this position (see Operator entry).

[Pepsi Jedi]

You're saying to site a source that need not be done.

When ever you make a claim as fact, it needs a source.
That means that it need be done.

If you've ever wore any sort of body armor or protective gear it's clear. The bigger and thicker it is, the harder it is to move. The heavier it is. The harder it is to move. I cite real life. Physics and common sense. You're trying to be snarky.

Powered armour disagrees with you. That's a fact too.

DURRRR HURRRR RIIIIGHT!! You make it as if there isn't armor now. Protective coverings now. Full environmental suits now.. Oh wait.. *GASP* There is! There's been armor for centuries. There's modern body armor. There's modern environmental suits.

I didn't know environmental body armour and modern evironmental suits were the exact same thing

Know what? Ever since it's inception, it's been uncomfortable... back from boiled hides to metal full suits that knights wore, all the way up to modern flack jackets with environmental suits over it. It's hot, uncomfortable, and hard to move around in. Don't believe me? Go to a SCA event. Try some on. Go to a modern martial arts dojo and put on the full padded suit. Go to a high end military surplus store and suit up.

Me wearing ancient through our own modern armour has no bearing on the comfort of a space-age armour from centuries in the future; your posit is speculation, not fact.

Again you're going "Oh well that's future science fiction stuff. You don't know so shut up" It's still body armor. It's still going on humans. It's still hard plates with little give to them jointed together to cover the entire body. It still is encumbrance. It's still harder to move around in than if you didn't have it on.

Because you knew I would point this out does not detract from the point being made. All this does (you pointing out that I will adamantly stick to facts) shows that you have nothing factual, not even anything of note to put forth to counter the statements before you.

You're argueing just to argue. Again.

You say this, yet only one of us is using facts to support their position

They are when they're in canon books. Most especially when the book is about the new Armor and arms of a military. These aren't fan creations or sketches on Deviant art.

Oh right. I guess the Iron Bolt Missile vehicle out of Rifts Mercenaries really does have only 2 rows of 5 missile ports for its long-range missiles. My bad. Guess I read the description wrong Not to mention all the other images that are just flat-out different from their descriptions

They're published by the company in the books. They're not fan creations on the web man.

The company also published spelling errors and mistakes; are they canon as well? *facepalm*

The written descriptions say the armor has skeletal aspects and describes them as such, as well. I cited the source above.

I haven't disputed that; You even quoted me saying as much. This is a non-point on your behalf.

Simple. Different manufacturing centers having different design applications. The armor made in Lone star might have a few slight variances from the armor made in Chi Town. Simple as that.

This stands as false and completely your opinion without an ounce of fact until you cite a source.

The assembly line in one city puts them on one way, the one in another has a very slight variation.

And not a snarky jerk answer.

This also stands as false and completely your opinion without an ounce of fact until you cite a source.

The facts remain.

Maybe you could cite some. Some time. Ever. Instead of just making this statement. Or were you pointing out that your arguement disappears and only the facts I've put forth remain?

The armor is designed on purpose to look like that. You claim there is no Skull helmet, and there clearlly is.

Perhaps you can tell me what skull looks like the following;

pg.99, under the heading "New CS Body Armor"... The entire upper part of the helmet is a large, black tinted visor or face-plate made of one-way polyceramic glass that is as strong as mega-damage steel... ...This large transparent face-plate gives the soldier full use of his normal and peripheral vision."

The answer is none.

Your statements are lies.

Please, enlighten everyone as to which of the facts I put forth were "lies".

Going off what's shown is not speculation.

That is correct. That's not speculation, it's just plain being willfully ignorant of the written facts.

You're claiming all the art in all the books isn't cannon, is absurd.

I'm not claiming it; I'm stating that it is a fact the pictures are not canon.

I've been in many different types of armor. Both in SCA, out of it. In Martial arts, in Kendo, in military armor. Yeah... Have I suited up in Dead boy armor? no.

This is perhaps the first factual statement you've made all thread. Cheers to you. Telling the truth isn't that hard, now. Is it?

But I do have a frame of reference. You're acting like logical extrapolation based on known factors of human condition can't be known.

No, I'm saying that we should leave speculation out of it, regardless of how logical it may seem to a poster. Remember, the game isn't based off of logic, and often contradicts what logic would normally dictate.

It hits -35 here sometimes in the winter.... How cold is it there?

Last winter it was around -30 degrees celsius on average. It dipped down to -40ish (most of the time it was -42) for a week with the windchill (the real killer), and hit below -50 one day. And that wasn't the coldest of winters either. Some of the posters on this board from Edmonton will tell you what cold really is

It's still not even remotely close.

Weight-wise it is.

You're talking aboout wearing shoulder pads, gloves and a half helmet to full body armor that covers you crown to toe and is all interconnected to keep even AIR out, and is hard ceramic plates, plastic and metal.

Maybe hockey equipment isn't close to heavy deadboy for coverage, but it's close to some of the EBAs. Urban Warrior for example. The weight plus coverage is closer than actual modern body armour. And no, that is not a joke. The placement of the plastic plates and padded fabric is much closer to many EBA descriptions than a flak-jacket is.

Yes we can. We're humans. We know what wearing stuff is like. We know the heavier it is, the harder to move. The more restrictive it is, the harder to move. The HARDER it is, the harder it is to move in it.

Again, more speculation on your part. Also, this is a false statement; full-plated armour is self-supporting in many locations, and was easier to move in than many of the less-protective medival armours. There are other armour examples like this; this is a design factor that made weight and rigidity less of an issue.

So.. in your experience... as a human on planet earth.. if you're wearing something that would already give you a 20% penalty.... adding MORE WEIGHT and MORE MASS and MORE DEPTH to what you're wearing... isn't going to do anything?

Or it'll slow you down and make it harder to move?

In my experience, it would depend entirely where that weight was added. You add that weight balanced throughout the armour and there's a good chance it will become easier to move in because you've made it balanced. All that decor of the skull motif doesn't exactly shout,"expertly balanced!"

And maybe Crusader armor is designed for better movement? Or maybe that it's heavier because.. it's heavier? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

The name, "Heavy Deadboy" armour is derived not from the weight of the armour, but from the MDC. "Heavy" is a classification based on the amount of MDC (more than 50, apparently), while mobility is derived from weight (and by comparison, design). The weight of "Heavy" deadboy armour does not exceed that of Crusader, yet the penalty is greater for the majority of aspects. Why? We can only speculate. I'd bet on design, but that said; adding 5Lbs worth of weight should have no effect given that heavier armours offer lesser penalties. And backing that up is the Operator OCC ability to increase MDC (which one would assume would add weight as well) by 20%, yet not a single thing is indicative that doing so would also increase mobility penalties.

Or, for the sake of simplicity; adding some weight and/or getting rid of decor offers no tangible penalty.

Point of fact the RUE doesn't say that under operator. It only says you can add mdc, and the percentage depends on your level. It doesn't say it's weightless. It doesn't account for any of the mechanics of it at all. it just says you can do it.

I'll tell you what it does say, "gain MDC".
Now I'll tell you what it doesn't say, "doing so adds penalties to mobility".

Under maximize performance it says you can work to reduce weight for something by 10% but it's not connected to the adding of MDC, other than it's in a list of things you can do. You're misrepresenting it.

I am not. That is something you can do, but it is separate and exclusive to adding MDC. ie: doing one does not mean you're doing the other.

Wearing heavy stuff that's hard to move around in (( Heavy armor with 20% prowl penalties)), and adding weight and depth to it, will make it even harder too move around in. FACT

Please cite the source where is says,"adding weight and depth to an armour will make it even harder to move around in". Remember, our real-life facts are not facts within the game.

That's the way the world works.

Which one are you talking about; Rifts Earth, or rl Earth?
If it's the former, then you are wrong. If it's the latter, then what relevancy does that have on the conversation?

It's common sense. Now.. I know it's not always common, but you can't refute that by going "They didn't say adding weight to something makes it heavier" in the book. They didn't define what air is in the book either but the people still breathe it.

I'm not refuting that; your statement is saying the same thing twice. "adding weight makes it heavier". Yes; that is what happens when you add weight. What I've refuted from the get-go is that it does anything. Just because you're adding 5Lbs worth of MDC material does not mean you're also adding mobility penalties, and I've quoted page and section in the book to support this position (see Operator entry).

I'm not going to spend an hour replying to this point by point. You're lieing. Simple as that. You're refusing real world physics, and claiming you've supported it when you haven't. I looked up your one cited source under operator and you lied as to what it said there. Sorry but you did. You said it said one thing and it doesn't. that's a lie. When you cite sources and lie, it totally discredits anything else you might say. I've got all the books man. I can open them up. I'm lazy, but not so much that I won't look up your cited sources and see them for untruths.

Sorry but I'm not going to waste my time. If you think that adding weight to armor makes it easier to move in (( as you've said more than once)) and that real world doesn't matter in rifts, then your opinions don't matter. You're just making stuff up. You've said more than once that real world common sense don't factor in, so arguing with you is arguing with someone just making stuff up. Thus pointless.