Strike Force Crossover suggestions/feedback wanted

[Nightmask]

So been trying to configure a team story idea using the Strike Force module as a starting area featuring a mix of Rifts/Phase World and local RDF forces but not really sure how the military would assign a team (based on the premise that they don't just take the tech of the aliens and instead choose to make them willing allies by simply employing them as they're mercenaries after all).

For the off-setting team I was considering a Special Forces OCC Battle Cat teamed with a Gizmoteer, Psi-Tech, and Techno-Wizard (they were part of a larger group's repair/resupply/back-up team). So some basic Phase World energy rifles and pistols, a couple Mark IV Space Glitter Boys, and a TW-enhanced SAMAS, and other basic gear you'd expect for such a team.

Now on the military side how suitable does this mix sound: Veritech Fighter Pilot, Military Specialist, Mechanical Engineer, and a Communications Specialist? Would that sound reasonable for teaming with such aliens or would it be more top-heavy on one or another OCC? I could see it as both a shake-down deal to see how the aliens could be trusted, evaluate their technology, and attempt to ferret out how to improve their own tech with the alien's tech (in particular could perfect their rail gun designs that in the module are said to be phased out due to their unreliability).

[FreelancerMar]

I would have to say that it depends on how Both sides are played. There are probably bound to be biggots on both sides of the fence somewhere. Another thing one must ask is where is this taking place???(IE what Enviornment??) also what is the political situation of this enviornment?? There are a lot of factors one must consider.

[Nightmask]

I would have to say that it depends on how Both sides are played. There are probably bound to be biggots on both sides of the fence somewhere. Another thing one must ask is where is this taking place???(IE what Enviornment??) also what is the political situation of this enviornment?? There are a lot of factors one must consider.

Well the rifted tech sorts wouldn't be have any particular prejudices, at least none that would be active in the Robotech setting since it wouldn't have any supernatural evils or similar sorts around just the humans and Zentraedi. Any prejudice would have to come from the Robotech Earth side of things, particularly towards the Battle Cat (being obviously alien and obviously dangerous). The intro would be shortly prior to the need to investigate Zaria's sudden loss of communications and using it as a way of studying the alien tech and put the aliens to good use in a hostile area so they don't have to risk as many RDF members.

There are various things to worry about in that, not as many factions to worry about until after things have progressed a while though. My main interest is whether or not the RDF mix is too varied or if that'd be in keeping with a Strike Force for maximum effectiveness.

[FreelancerMar]

Another Question.

Would you also consider allowing Southern Cross OCC's as well??? Strike Force could easily take place with current production Line asc mecha but before the Masters themselves arive. A VHT could come in awefully Handy.

As for the Robotech Non-Veritech Pilot OCC's, It would probably be a good idea if they all had at least 1 Destroid Piloting and 1 Mecha Combat Skill. This does not need to translate into 3 more mecha, but the extra protection would probably be worth it. The Comm Engineer could get a Radir-X(Probably spelled wrong) Or possabily the Strikeforce Crusader, Which would Definately be worth it in Extra Detection Ability. The mecha Engineer could get a Strikeforce Crusader or Gladiator Equiped with a Gu-11. and the Military Specialist, hrmmm Excalibur Or StrikeForce Crusader.

The Psitech could be Paired with the Mecha Engineer and possabily swap notes on stuff. The Battle cat could be on foot in a recon position Looking for tripwires etc... Im not sure about the Others.

However I definately do not see them(Rifts PC's) being allowed to keep their MECHA units when not working for the Military as they are clearly Military Grade Mega Damage hardware which are catagorically Illeagle for Private citizens to own and operate. I also see one of the GB units being Stripped down and dismantled so it's workings can be reverse engineered.

Now correct me if I am wrong but is the Mark IV gb the one with the Particle beam gun and not the Boomgun correct???

[Alpha 11]

Another Question.

Would you also consider allowing Southern Cross OCC's as well??? Strike Force could easily take place with current production Line asc mecha but before the Masters themselves arive. A VHT could come in awefully Handy.

As for the Robotech Non-Veritech Pilot OCC's, It would probably be a good idea if they all had at least 1 Destroid Piloting and 1 Mecha Combat Skill. This does not need to translate into 3 more mecha, but the extra protection would probably be worth it. The Comm Engineer could get a Radir-X(Probably spelled wrong) Or possabily the Strikeforce Crusader, Which would Definately be worth it in Extra Detection Ability. The mecha Engineer could get a Strikeforce Crusader or Gladiator Equiped with a Gu-11. and the Military Specialist, hrmmm Excalibur Or StrikeForce Crusader.

The Psitech could be Paired with the Mecha Engineer and possabily swap notes on stuff. The Battle cat could be on foot in a recon position Looking for tripwires etc... Im not sure about the Others.

However I definately do not see them(Rifts PC's) being allowed to keep their MECHA units when not working for the Military as they are clearly Military Grade Mega Damage hardware which are catagorically Illeagle for Private citizens to own and operate. I also see one of the GB units being Stripped down and dismantled so it's workings can be reverse engineered.

Now correct me if I am wrong but is the Mark IV gb the one with the Particle beam gun and not the Boomgun correct???

Yes, it has the PB and not the Boomgun.

[Nightmask]

Another Question.

Would you also consider allowing Southern Cross OCC's as well??? Strike Force could easily take place with current production Line asc mecha but before the Masters themselves arive. A VHT could come in awefully Handy.

As for the Robotech Non-Veritech Pilot OCC's, It would probably be a good idea if they all had at least 1 Destroid Piloting and 1 Mecha Combat Skill. This does not need to translate into 3 more mecha, but the extra protection would probably be worth it. The Comm Engineer could get a Radir-X(Probably spelled wrong) Or possabily the Strikeforce Crusader, Which would Definately be worth it in Extra Detection Ability. The mecha Engineer could get a Strikeforce Crusader or Gladiator Equiped with a Gu-11. and the Military Specialist, hrmmm Excalibur Or StrikeForce Crusader.

The Psitech could be Paired with the Mecha Engineer and possabily swap notes on stuff. The Battle cat could be on foot in a recon position Looking for tripwires etc... Im not sure about the Others.

However I definately do not see them(Rifts PC's) being allowed to keep their MECHA units when not working for the Military as they are clearly Military Grade Mega Damage hardware which are catagorically Illeagle for Private citizens to own and operate. I also see one of the GB units being Stripped down and dismantled so it's workings can be reverse engineered.

Now correct me if I am wrong but is the Mark IV gb the one with the Particle beam gun and not the Boomgun correct???

Given that part of the mission is a shake-down run of variant mecha I was seeing the Gladius as part of the RDF's equipment contribution to the team, along with of course the VF-1X for the Veritech Pilot, and the Light Insurgence RDF Battloid. I agree that everyone would have piloting skills in at least one of the mecha (and the Veritech pilot the Veritech naturally and skill in one of the other mecha too). The Military Specialist and Communications Expert in the Battloid (since it's got all those nice scanner systems particularly recording systems)), Mechanical Engineer doing shake-down on the Gladius, and naturally the Veritech pilot with the VF-1X. Hmmm, wonder if the Techno-Wizard would work better with the T-31 Super Trooper, for the similarities between it and the Gladius with the vibro-blade feature.

I doubt the RDF would do well trying to just take the equipment from the aliens, considering self-destruct systems are standard issue and a slagged Glitter Boy is worthless other than to reverse engineer the Chrome armor and it's really just not worth it when you could gain so much more just working with the aliens. After all they are just a handful of them and they'd be much more useful as allies rather than enemies. Sure the RDF could strip everything from them (and destroy much of it in the fight) but it's just not cost effective. Someone willing to work with you is always better than someone forced to. Besides as a repair/reloading team they'd have spares of some common (to them) items like the HI-80's and E-packs for the Heavy CAF Battle Armor (and spares of the armor) to offer up for study as a gesture of good will and show it's better to use honey rather than vinegar to get the best results.

The Battle Cat checking ahead for things is a good idea, while the psychic senses aren't going to be of much help the natural senses would be good for detecting threats (and there is that one mined bridge). Plus that Special Forces training would give her a well-rounded skill-set. She'd also be the one running her group, since she was the one charged with protecting them. Unsure if the Military Specialist or the Veritech Pilot would end up the ranking officer running things, but leaning towards the Military Specialist since it is a recon mission to discover what's happened to Zaria and the troops under her command and the bases they were building.

As already noted yes the Mark IV is the Particle Beam cannon Glittery Boy. It has limited firing capacity (20 shots from the fully charged capacitor before it requires giving it time to recharge at least one shot before firing again) but is probably the most powerful power armor-sized Particle Beam weapon I've seen listed. 2 mile range doing 4d6x10 damage and has (by comparison) a light laser on the barrel for when the main cannon isn't available with roughly the same range. Considerably quieter than the Boom Gun and not dependent on a limited ammo supply that would eventually run out without the means of talking the RDF into giving them the access necessary to create fresh ammo (so the SAMAS and rail guns are locked in with a finite ammo supply if/until gaining sufficient trust to be able to get the equipment to make more).

[FreelancerMar]

If the Samas is a TW unit, then why would you need ammo for it??? Wouldn't it just have some sort of TW gun as well???

I also agree that the RDF probably wouldn't just Strip them of their gear. The ASC Brass on the other hand is a different story entirely. One must remember that Leonard is an anti-alien Bigot meaning if it is not human, then it has a bullseye target on it's head and it is to be immediately terminated with extreme predjuice. The only way I could get around That situation is if the Team were (at least on paper and in records) an offical RDF Military Squad which would grant the team members at least some protection from Leonards mechanitions and maneuvers to "Exterminate the alien trash". This would also mean taking them with on the SDF-3 if they cannot get back home because if they do get left on earth then Leonard would find a way to make them DEAD MEAT!

[Nightmask]

If the Samas is a TW unit, then why would you need ammo for it??? Wouldn't it just have some sort of TW gun as well???

I also agree that the RDF probably wouldn't just Strip them of their gear. The ASC Brass on the other hand is a different story entirely. One must remember that Leonard is an anti-alien Bigot meaning if it is not human, then it has a bullseye target on it's head and it is to be immediately terminated with extreme predjuice. The only way I could get around That situation is if the Team were (at least on paper and in records) an offical RDF Military Squad which would grant the team members at least some protection from Leonards mechanitions and maneuvers to "Exterminate the alien trash". This would also mean taking them with on the SDF-3 if they cannot get back home because if they do get left on earth then Leonard would find a way to make them DEAD MEAT!

I was thinking since Robotech is a very low magic setting that any TW items like a TK Rail-gun just wouldn't do MD anymore, at best just SDC. So any TW items drop down to the SDC range rather than remain (other than in physical damage resistance) as MDC effects. The same would hold true for the Gizmoteer's psionic items with psionic MD effects.

Hmm, so have to keep the drama of conflicting personalities in the chain of command in mind and how it affects the effectiveness of the group. Much like Gloval's headaches when he's trying to do the right thing and High Command was willing to send 70,000 civilians to their deaths rather than admit that they were alive . Then again they have to survive the jungles of Indochina and all the various groups threatening them including Zaria. Doing well against her would be helpful in earning trust at least.

[FreelancerMar]

Actually that would be unfair to the TW PC and the Other Paranormal classes to Strip them of their abilities in such a manner. The Robotech Dimension may not be the Megaversal Nexus that is Rifts earth, but the Background energies could be high enough(and in fact should be to avoid cheating the Rifts PC's out of their abilities) to support Megadamage Paranormal Abilities. Remember that the rifts characters are going from one Megadamage enviornment to another so letting them keep their high end paranormal abilities would not be out of line.

[Nightmask]

Actually that would be unfair to the TW PC and the Other Paranormal classes to Strip them of their abilities in such a manner. The Robotech Dimension may not be the Megaversal Nexus that is Rifts earth, but the Background energies could be high enough(and in fact should be to avoid cheating the Rifts PC's out of their abilities) to support Megadamage Paranormal Abilities. Remember that the rifts characters are going from one Megadamage enviornment to another so letting them keep their high end paranormal abilities would not be out of line.

Not everything is fair though, and if MDC creatures like even dragons suffer serious penalties to MDC or even revert to SDC creatures having the MD level abilities of the TW or Gizmoteer drop to SDC levels is the fair end. They don't lose everything after all and there are features that are quite useful irrespective of the setting. Impervious to Energy is going to work on MD energy too for example, as will Invisibility (either version). They're still quite effective, just have to adapt a bit. Plus the Gizmoteer can still supercharge items temporarily and the TW instill useful enchantments into things.

[FreelancerMar]

Another question is this. Although you are using Strikeforce, Are you using it with the 1st gen game or the current gen game??? Remember that stuff in the current gen game has been Riftified.

[Nightmask]

Another question is this. Although you are using Strikeforce, Are you using it with the 1st gen game or the current gen game??? Remember that stuff in the current gen game has been Riftified.

Original books, I haven't gotten any of the new stuff (no money for luxuries currently).

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

I also agree that the RDF probably wouldn't just Strip them of their gear. The ASC Brass on the other hand is a different story entirely. One must remember that Leonard is an anti-alien Bigot meaning if it is not human, then it has a bullseye target on it's head and it is to be immediately terminated with extreme predjuice

Could you please provide a reference for this from the 1st Edition RPG, cause I'm completely unaware of Field Marshall Leonard or The Army of the Southern Cross having such a policy.

[batlchip]

I like that you have the VT pilot in a VF-X and the light insurgence battliod.I would suggest having the military specialist in a Micronian P.A and All the RDF characters in RDF light body armor.The military specialist and the special forces would be scouts.

[Nightmask]

I like that you have the VT pilot in a VF-X and the light insurgence battliod.I would suggest having the military specialist in a Micronian P.A and All the RDF characters in RDF light body armor.The military specialist and the special forces would be scouts.

Well part of the setting is about testing out these new, ready for production models and determine any remaining defects that can only show up in the field (like we've seen with many Toyota vehicles that have shown problems when doing certain things that you'd never think to emulate in a testing facility). So given that having the RDF side making use of these rather than trusted mecha seemed a must.

Didn't think about trying out the Micronian Power Armor though; given the introduction of the alien power armor the RDF would certainly like to compare performance and attempt to learn everything that they could to improve their existing designs. Same with standard battle armor since CAF armor is incredibly lightweight and provides massive amounts of MDC protection. Even the CAF Jumpsuit provides fabulous protection compared to RDF materials.

[FreelancerMar]

I also agree that the RDF probably wouldn't just Strip them of their gear. The ASC Brass on the other hand is a different story entirely. One must remember that Leonard is an anti-alien Bigot meaning if it is not human, then it has a bullseye target on it's head and it is to be immediately terminated with extreme predjuice

Could you please provide a reference for this from the 1st Edition RPG, cause I'm completely unaware of Field Marshall Leonard or The Army of the Southern Cross having such a policy.

Watch the TV show Like I did 2 days ago and you will see it for yourself.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Watch the TV show Like I did 2 days ago and you will see it for yourself.

Perhaps you are unaware that Dana Sterling was HALF-Zentraedi? If Leonard was such a bigot, why the hell was she allowed the ASC to begin with?

[Colonel Wolfe]

I also agree that the RDF probably wouldn't just Strip them of their gear. The ASC Brass on the other hand is a different story entirely. One must remember that Leonard is an anti-alien Bigot meaning if it is not human, then it has a bullseye target on it's head and it is to be immediately terminated with extreme predjuice

Could you please provide a reference for this from the 1st Edition RPG, cause I'm completely unaware of Field Marshall Leonard or The Army of the Southern Cross having such a policy.

Watch the TV show Like I did 2 days ago and you will see it for yourself.

I am in the middle of note-taking on the Masters-era, and I got no such feeling from Leonard. in Fact Rick Hunter is more likely a Xenophobe and bigot than Leonard, Rick goes on several tirades about how Aliens can't be trusted, and are Dangerous.
and Scott is also a Xenophobic Biggot, since he Talks of the Sending the Invid to extinction like the Zentradie, and he was more than willing to Murder invid sympathizers in the Lake city...

[Colonel Wolfe]

Watch the TV show Like I did 2 days ago and you will see it for yourself.

Perhaps you are unaware that Dana Sterling was HALF-Zentraedi? If Leonard was such a bigot, why the hell was she allowed the ASC to begin with?

didn;t you know... that why he kept sending he on the dangerous missions that he needed to succeed, thus he sent someone he hated, wanted dead, and wanted to fail....
why else send her into harms way every time? not because you can depend on the 15th to get the job done, no its because he's a racist and wants her to be dead...
and Assigning Zor, another Alien to the 15th shows hes a bigot too... being he Shoots all alines in the head..

[Nightmask]

I also agree that the RDF probably wouldn't just Strip them of their gear. The ASC Brass on the other hand is a different story entirely. One must remember that Leonard is an anti-alien Bigot meaning if it is not human, then it has a bullseye target on it's head and it is to be immediately terminated with extreme predjuice

Could you please provide a reference for this from the 1st Edition RPG, cause I'm completely unaware of Field Marshall Leonard or The Army of the Southern Cross having such a policy.

Watch the TV show Like I did 2 days ago and you will see it for yourself.

I am in the middle of note-taking on the Masters-era, and I got no such feeling from Leonard. in Fact Rick Hunter is more likely a Xenophobe and bigot than Leonard, Rick goes on several tirades about how Aliens can't be trusted, and are Dangerous.
and Scott is also a Xenophobic Biggot, since he Talks of the Sending the Invid to extinction like the Zentradie, and he was more than willing to Murder invid sympathizers in the Lake city...

I'd wondered where the mention of xenophobia came from myself, considering even when they knew Zor wasn't human they still kept him working for the SC. Sure they watched him but they still let him actively fight for Earth. Then again the end of Robotech for the Invid Invasion left me unhappy with so many heroes even after all their experiences and having two human-form Invid join them declaring how there could never be peaceful cooperation between the two species and basically calling for total war to the end.

[batlchip]

I also agree that the RDF probably wouldn't just Strip them of their gear. The ASC Brass on the other hand is a different story entirely. One must remember that Leonard is an anti-alien Bigot meaning if it is not human, then it has a bullseye target on it's head and it is to be immediately terminated with extreme predjuice

Could you please provide a reference for this from the 1st Edition RPG, cause I'm completely unaware of Field Marshall Leonard or The Army of the Southern Cross having such a policy.

Watch the TV show Like I did 2 days ago and you will see it for yourself.

I am in the middle of note-taking on the Masters-era, and I got no such feeling from Leonard. in Fact Rick Hunter is more likely a Xenophobe and bigot than Leonard, Rick goes on several tirades about how Aliens can't be trusted, and are Dangerous.
and Scott is also a Xenophobic Biggot, since he Talks of the Sending the Invid to extinction like the Zentradie, and he was more than willing to Murder invid sympathizers in the Lake city...

Rick was a xenophobe but he changed when he met(watch the T.V show and see how he acts towards Miriya when he first mets her.) Miriaya,Breetai,Exadore,and the three spies.As for Scott,The people in lake city were helping the invid in killing fellow soldiers just to live in peace.Although the circle of fire novels say they got wasted by the invid anyway when Scott's group left.(One of the few things I liked that was in the novels.)I think killing those kind of people would not have been Xenophobic Just justice for all those that did and will die by those people hands.Leonard only had problems with Dana because she was constanly overstepping her bounds as a LT.You are right Leonard always sent the 15th in harm's way not because they could get the job done but because of Dana and Bowie who were in Leonard's eyes Emmerson's pets.The 15th were sucessfull and every time they got the job done they made Emmerson look good.This didn't sit well with Leonard who did not like Emmerson getting all the credit among other things.Course I could be way wrong on the Emmerson vs Leonard thing.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Rick was a xenophobe but he changed when he met(watch the T.V show and see how he acts towards Miriya when he first mets her.) Miriaya,Breetai,Exadore,and the three spies.

except Scott makes the Comments to Exadore and other Memebrs of the UEF command after the Defeat of the Zentradie in "Force of Arms". and To be completly Honest... I don't think his Feeling was out of place or biggoted in the least.. the Zentradie attacked the Earth for no reason, they were only sent to capture the SDF-1.. but they Decided on their own to bombard the planet, which was nearly defenseless against 4.8 million ships... Breetia's reason for betraying his Allies was one of self preservation, and had little to do wiht any loyalty to Earth or warm feeling toward humans, he knew once Dolza killed the Earth, his fleet was doomed for death too... so they turned on their own allies.. like a Snake. IF anyone had Xenophobic feeling, they are Justified.

As for Scott,The people in lake city were helping the invid in killing fellow soldiers just to live in peace.Although the circle of fire novels say they got wasted by the invid anyway when Scott's group left.(One of the few things I liked that was in the novels.)I think killing those kind of people would not have been Xenophobic Just justice for all those that did and will die by those people hands.

but it still doesn't excuse scotts statements about making the Invid extinct any less xenophobic... again his fleeing were Justified... and the Invid admit in the final episodes that they won't live in peace wiht humans, and either have to kill them, or leave...

[Nightmask]

Rick was a xenophobe but he changed when he met(watch the T.V show and see how he acts towards Miriya when he first mets her.) Miriaya,Breetai,Exadore,and the three spies.

except Scott makes the Comments to Exadore and other Memebrs of the UEF command after the Defeat of the Zentradie in "Force of Arms". and To be completly Honest... I don't think his Feeling was out of place or biggoted in the least.. the Zentradie attacked the Earth for no reason, they were only sent to capture the SDF-1.. but they Decided on their own to bombard the planet, which was nearly defenseless against 4.8 million ships... Breetia's reason for betraying his Allies was one of self preservation, and had little to do wiht any loyalty to Earth or warm feeling toward humans, he knew once Dolza killed the Earth, his fleet was doomed for death too... so they turned on their own allies.. like a Snake. IF anyone had Xenophobic feeling, they are Justified.

I don't think you can characterize Breetai's turning on Dolza in such a fashion, the snake turning on its own is cold-blooded betrayal which was more in keeping with Kyron. Breetai acted to protect the troops under his command as a good commander would. He determined there was a threat to them from his own people and if he didn't ally with Humanity his troops would be slain. Self-preservation in action, not the actions of the snake. If there'd been a way to do it without turning on his leader he would have but Breetai knew running would do no good and chose to fight to survive.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I don't think you can characterize Breetai's turning on Dolza in such a fashion, the snake turning on its own is cold-blooded betrayal which was more in keeping with Kyron. Breetai acted to protect the troops under his command as a good commander would. He determined there was a threat to them from his own people and if he didn't ally with Humanity his troops would be slain. Self-preservation in action, not the actions of the snake. If there'd been a way to do it without turning on his leader he would have but Breetai knew running would do no good and chose to fight to survive.

I never said it was cold blooded, just he turned on his commanders like a Snake... He Switched Sides to the very group he had been trying to capture/kill for over a year... just to save his own butt (and by extension his subordinates) . it Makes him an Oath breaker, and a Race Traitor since he is responsible for untold number of Murders of his own people.
He didn't have to Ally with the Humans, Khyron Ran away and survived.

[FriarJohn00]

I think that, and I'll have to go and rewatch to be sure, that Dolza's order to launch the assault came AFTER Breetai opened negotiations with the SDF1. Exadore is told of the coming attack while meeting with Gloval et al. In no small way Breetai had already "switched sides."

As for Leonard: many of us get the idea that he was a xenophobe from the Novels, some of which is based off of Macek's notes to McKenny. (No arguments on that point, please. A reading of Art 3's introduction (pg. 45) implies that the Novels are closer to what his initial vision was - in particular the Sentinels) Now, that he is a small, bitter, nasty politician in uniform can be seen from his hissy fit when Edwards contradicts him in council and he orders what effectively amounts top a suicide mission.

As for Xenophobia, the idea that the UEEF worked with aliens in similar straits to them (ie: being attacked by superior and hostile forces) is still in place. I can see them working with others, within reason. In terms of the Three Galaxies, I can see the UEEF seeing the Krelor and Slugorth as simply more inhuman monsters out to dominate space. The UWW would require the most thinking around, and might be the most disruptive since (according to the First Ed of the Conversion Book) the FOL won't grow within 100 miles of a Ley Line or Nexus (pg 35). On the occasion I did something like this (I ran a BTS style covert campaign with Macross as a background) the charicters and NPCs had to work out how protoculture altered the background count of PPE, as it where, and adjust. Once they figured that out, they learned how to "ride" the affect of protoculture to boost the effect to Mega Damage levels.

[Nightmask]

I think that, and I'll have to go and rewatch to be sure, that Dolza's order to launch the assault came AFTER Breetai opened negotiations with the SDF1. Exadore is told of the coming attack while meeting with Gloval et al. In no small way Breetai had already "switched sides."

As for Leonard: many of us get the idea that he was a xenophobe from the Novels, some of which is based off of Macek's notes to McKenny. (No arguments on that point, please. A reading of Art 3's introduction (pg. 45) implies that the Novels are closer to what his initial vision was - in particular the Sentinels) Now, that he is a small, bitter, nasty politician in uniform can be seen from his hissy fit when Edwards contradicts him in council and he orders what effectively amounts top a suicide mission.

As for Xenophobia, the idea that the UEEF worked with aliens in similar straits to them (ie: being attacked by superior and hostile forces) is still in place. I can see them working with others, within reason. In terms of the Three Galaxies, I can see the UEEF seeing the Krelor and Slugorth as simply more inhuman monsters out to dominate space. The UWW would require the most thinking around, and might be the most disruptive since (according to the First Ed of the Conversion Book) the FOL won't grow within 100 miles of a Ley Line or Nexus (pg 35). On the occasion I did something like this (I ran a BTS style covert campaign with Macross as a background) the charicters and NPCs had to work out how protoculture altered the background count of PPE, as it where, and adjust. Once they figured that out, they learned how to "ride" the affect of protoculture to boost the effect to Mega Damage levels.

I never got the feeling that there was rampant xenophobia in Robotech, the RDF did take in aliens even if they did demonstrate trust issues but that's understandable given the impact the war(s) had on Earth. I just don't see a need to take things up to Eleven with regards to the group since you're talking 4 characters completely cut off in another reality quite different than their own and without the means to get back without some serious help and incredible luck on on their part. That's quite a bit to keep a group busy trying to adapt for quite some time especially in trying to keep their advanced equipment repaired and supplied with ammo and having to learn local tech for when their tech most likely reaches the 'beyond repair' point.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I think that, and I'll have to go and rewatch to be sure, that Dolza's order to launch the assault came AFTER Breetai opened negotiations with the SDF1. Exadore is told of the coming attack while meeting with Gloval et al. In no small way Breetai had already "switched sides."

Breetai says he was given orders by high command to open negotiations... so he wasnt' switching sides...

[Colonel Wolfe]

plus , going by the Old RPg, the REF didnt trust the Zents, why else give them such terrible "REF battle pods"

[FriarJohn00]

[/quote] Breetai says he was given orders by high command to open negotiations... so he wasnt' switching sides...[/quote]


I've always thought that was a lie, since the Main Fleet comes as a response to Azonia's interference by reporting to Dolza. The narrator's line seems to be the one out of place.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Breetai says he was given orders by high command to open negotiations... so he wasnt' switching sides...

I've always thought that was a lie, since the Main Fleet comes as a response to Azonia's interference by reporting to Dolza. The narrator's line seems to be the one out of place.

well, Breetai says it, and is surprised when Azonia says the Grand Fleet is on the way... I think Breetai was lied to, since his command was contaminated.

[FriarJohn00]

plus , going by the Old RPg, the REF didnt trust the Zents, why else give them such terrible "REF battle pods"

There are four reasons given: The first is that the majority of Zents were unable to master the Human Mecha.
Second, returning the micronized Zents to full size was to much of a strain on resources.
Third, the old Mecha provided to little protection to the pilots.
Fourth (and last) "some" feared a revolt. That is "some" by no means all, or even a majority.

[Nightmask]

I've always thought that was a lie, since the Main Fleet comes as a response to Azonia's interference by reporting to Dolza. The narrator's line seems to be the one out of place.

Hmmm, I do remember Breetai reacting in terror when he found out she'd forwarded the information to High Command and they were coming and this from someone who casually walked across the hull of his ship in the vacuum of space unprotected to come in through an airlock and finish curb-stomping Rick in his Veritech. Whether or not he was lying is debatable but he definitely knew that the big boss coming would mean he couldn't continue hiding the corruption in his fleet until he could deal with it quietly and they'd all be exterminated to ensure no contamination got back to the Main Fleet.

[FriarJohn00]

well, Breetai says it, and is surprised when Azonia says the Grand Fleet is on the way... I think Breetai was lied to, since his command was contaminated.

Right, my line of thought has always been: Breetai and Exadore open negotiations after the second mutiny (and because both of them have been affected too, remember that Breetai becomes sentimental/melancholy when he listens to Minme sing). Breetai says that he has his orders to Kyron, which is ambiguous if not a lie. Azonia, being the apple polisher she is runs to teacher reports to Dolza. Dolza sends fleet.

[Colonel Wolfe]

plus , going by the Old RPg, the REF didnt trust the Zents, why else give them such terrible "REF battle pods"

There are four reasons given: The first is that the majority of Zents were unable to master the Human Mecha.
Second, returning the micronized Zents to full size was to much of a strain on resources.
Third, the old Mecha provided to little protection to the pilots.
Fourth (and last) "some" feared a revolt. That is "some" by no means all, or even a majority.

1)yeah, but Miryia and the MAC2 pilots prove that a bogus reason. they use Human tech with no training.
2) but giving them sub-par weapson to fight an unknown enemy is like putting dynamite on a birthday cake instead of candels... weesa gonna die...
3) and the new ones were under armed... the REf givng them a Crab wiht no pinchers... veruses the old ships that are glass cannons...
4) I'd hope some feared a revolt...

[FriarJohn00]

1)yeah, but Miryia and the MAC2 pilots prove that a bogus reason. they use Human tech with no training.
2) but giving them sub-par weapson to fight an unknown enemy is like putting dynamite on a birthday cake instead of candels... weesa gonna die...
3) and the new ones were under armed... the REf givng them a Crab wiht no pinchers... veruses the old ships that are glass cannons...
4) I'd hope some feared a revolt...

1) Miryia et al are the superior type of Zent, not the "grunts."
2) I wouldn't call these sub-par, just "light" as in "light infantry."
3) They are lightly armed, not under armed, I always saw them as being assigned to the same duties that you would light infantry/armor. Guard duty, support missions and the like.
4) Since these were the ones who stayed out of the Malcontent uprisings, I would say that the "some" could be read "Edwards and his cronies."

[Colonel Wolfe]

1) Miryia et al are the superior type of Zent, not the "grunts."

I would almost agree, except, the Pilot Khyron puts in the MAC2/Monster have no problem piloting it, and they are Zents...

[Nightmask]

I think it was considered easier to simply give the Zentraedi mecha patterned after what they were familiar with, rather than retrain them. They certainly aren't stupid and could have learned to make use of human mecha as we've seen with Mirya. It was simply fear that some might turn and use that mecha against the RDF and the cost in retraining so many that got in the way and had them go the simple route. The new RDF pods are still superior to the old Zentraedi death traps that they piloted, even if they aren't as superior as they could be. Plus not like you can't explore the alternate issue where the RDF did embrace the Zentraedi and retrain them in your campaign, just to see how it plays out.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

plus , going by the Old RPg, the REF didnt trust the Zents, why else give them such terrible "REF battle pods"

Yep and Hunter was too spineless to oppose intentionally underarming them.

Note: The Zentraedi mecha are intentionally less heavily armored and equipped (no missiles, for example) than the human mecha as a precautionary measure against insurrection. This condition was a compromise that Admiral Rick Hunter grudgingly agreed to in order to get approval for the Zentraedi Destroid Program.

- Robotech II: The Sentinels RPG, p.70

[ESalter]

well, Breetai says it, and is surprised when Azonia says the Grand Fleet is on the way... I think Breetai was lied to, since his command was contaminated.

Right, my line of thought has always been: Breetai and Exadore open negotiations after the second mutiny (and because both of them have been affected too, remember that Breetai becomes sentimental/melancholy when he listens to Minme sing). Breetai says that he has his orders to Kyron, which is ambiguous if not a lie.

It's been a long time since I've seen the episode, but my impression is that Breetai spun a vague report to get Dolza to give permission to negotiate (which he did); it is Azonia's more detailed (and damaging) report that convinces Dolza to attack.
That being said, the official timeline for 2011 does support your theory.

Azonia, being the apple polisher she is runs to teacher reports to Dolza.

IMO that's not quite fair; I suspect tattling is an important method for advancement in the Zentraedi Forces. Breetai and Azonia have been rivals for months; I can't blame her for wanting to do him a bad turn. Unfortunately, she just didn't know as much about Zentraedi history as he did.

[FreelancerMar]

Actually if One checks the Weapon damage of the Ref Pods energy based weapons, you will see that they are almost identical if not identical to the weapons that the Origional pods used. The Only Difference is the Lack of Missiles on the Zentraedi based REF mecha. Other than the Lack of Missles, The REF units are superior to the 'Origional' pods in almost every way.

I also suspect that if Dana Sterling(Whom was raised on earth with a Human upbringing, as a human(Yes I know that she is 1 half Zentraedi)) did not have Plot Immunity, She would have and in fact should have been Courtmarsheled and thrown out of the service after the very first Brawl with the TASC Squad.

[ZINO]

I think it was considered easier to simply give the Zentraedi mecha patterned after what they were familiar with, rather than retrain them. They certainly aren't stupid and could have learned to make use of human mecha as we've seen with Mirya. It was simply fear that some might turn and use that mecha against the RDF and the cost in retraining so many that got in the way and had them go the simple route. The new RDF pods are still superior to the old Zentraedi death traps that they piloted, even if they aren't as superior as they could be. Plus not like you can't explore the alternate issue where the RDF did embrace the Zentraedi and retrain them in your campaign, just to see how it plays out.

"Nightmask"
think it was considered easier to simply give the Zentraedi mecha patterned after what they were familiar with, rather than retrain them. They certainly aren't stupid and could have learned to make use of human mecha as we've seen with Mirya. It was simply fear that some might turn and use that mecha against the RDF and the cost in retraining so many that got in the way and had them go the simple route.

I agree with this

well this is my two cents

"Nightmask" The new RDF pods are still superior to the old Zentraedi death traps that they piloted,

very true

"Nightmask" even if they aren't as superior as they could be.

well sorry I they are superior without missiles ,I seen how they taken in role playing several Invid and many old battle pods even rogue cyclone rider and even new R.E.F derstiords .they are very deadly in combat and just imagine adding missiles , in the leg areas and side torses on both type of battle pods

[Colonel Wolfe]

I also suspect that if Dana Sterling(Whom was raised on earth with a Human upbringing, as a human(Yes I know that she is 1 half Zentraedi)) did not have Plot Immunity, She would have and in fact should have been Courtmarsheled and thrown out of the service after the very first Brawl with the TASC Squad.

same wiht Rick Hunter who is regularly insubordinate to commanders... and Scott Bernard & Lancer who aided the enemy at the battle of Relex point.

[Nightmask]

I also suspect that if Dana Sterling(Whom was raised on earth with a Human upbringing, as a human(Yes I know that she is 1 half Zentraedi)) did not have Plot Immunity, She would have and in fact should have been Courtmarsheled and thrown out of the service after the very first Brawl with the TASC Squad.

same wiht Rick Hunter who is regularly insubordinate to commanders... and Scott Bernard & Lancer who aided the enemy at the battle of Relex point.

Except even in the real world you see cases of people who have acted in such a fashion in the military and gotten off with little more than a slap on the wrist. The degree to which one is valuable can affect the degree to which one is punished. Remember that Roy was also quite insubordinate himself, mocking Lisa when the civilian Rick Hunter was commenting on her age without suffering any punishment. Even in the military those rules of conduct and punishment aren't going to be adhered to 100% of the time.

[FreelancerMar]

@Nightmask

If I am not mistaken, at the time of the mocking Fokker actually OUTRANKED Lisa Hayse, and all of the other Bridge Officers with the Exception of Captian Glovol. Roy Fokker was the CAG.(He like Captain Glovol was a WWIII Combat Vetran and a command rank officer even before Lisa had Enlisted into the service).

Dana Sterling on the other hand had not yet even proved herself deserving of her officers rank when the TASC brawl occured. Dana also Assulted some of her subordnates without cause/reason on a regular basis which If I am not mistaken goes against the UCMJ and at the very least is punishable by a Demotion and possable courtmarshal.

As for Rick Hunter???? Well he had the protection of Plot Immunity and Big Brother Roy. He may have been insubordinate at times, BUT it was with the best of intentions of which the vast majority of his immediate superiors recognized. There was also no question that he was actually needed as a combat pilot Abord the SDF-1 Rick also was not the troublemaker that Dana was.

[Nightmask]

@Nightmask

If I am not mistaken, at the time of the mocking Fokker actually OUTRANKED Lisa Hayse, and all of the other Bridge Officers with the Exception of Captian Glovol. Roy Fokker was the CAG.(He like Captain Glovol was a WWIII Combat Vetran and a command rank officer even before Lisa had Enlisted into the service).

Dana Sterling on the other hand had not yet even proved herself deserving of her officers rank when the TASC brawl occured. Dana also Assulted some of her subordnates without cause/reason on a regular basis which If I am not mistaken goes against the UCMJ and at the very least is punishable by a Demotion and possable courtmarshal.

As for Rick Hunter???? Well he had the protection of Plot Immunity and Big Brother Roy. He may have been insubordinate at times, BUT it was with the best of intentions of which the vast majority of his immediate superiors recognized. There was also no question that he was actually needed as a combat pilot Abord the SDF-1 Rick also was not the troublemaker that Dana was.

I'll grant you Dana was certainly in the position where she rated punishment for her actions, but then again she was punished but she was successful enough that her actions were forgiven in the face of those successes. Her group's unexpected success meant even with her violations of code and procedure they were the go-to ones for the highest risk/highest-reward missions.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Dana Sterling on the other hand had not yet even proved herself deserving of her officers rank when the TASC brawl occured. Dana also Assulted some of her subordnates without cause/reason on a regular basis which If I am not mistaken goes against the UCMJ and at the very least is punishable by a Demotion and possable courtmarshal.

that's if the ASC/UEDF/UEFF operates under the modern UCMJ. infact Dana was given the position because Sean Phillips slept/flirted with a General wife or Daughter...

when sent on the missions where they got Caught in "First Contact" Hunter not only displays his lack fo respect for Superior officers who are directly command, but also shows his sexist/bigoted side, that is more and more apparent through the show.