Zentraedi vs the Three Galaxies

[jaymz]

Have to wonder though, if the Masters themselves are in charge of a 3G command and conqure, wouldn't it be feasable for them to begin adapting to the different technologies (better armor, weapons, mech, ect)? They did it with the Invid Fighters to better fight the Invid. What if they began reverse engineering everything they come across? Considering if it's a full invasion, it's gonna take a while. Of course, not to mention who's going to want to reverse engineer the Master's stuff.

As well, alliances they might make along the way. Could see them gaining allies with the Deevils or even the Tarlok. Offer them some avanced space craft and FTL like capabilities... and they've just added a few billion more troops.

Just some thoughts.

[Hystrix]

:frust:
It's all in the book(s).
First edition prefferably.
But never mind...

No. He has a valid point. Are you using 1st ED robotech or Revised. I was looking it over... big difference. The number of Battle Pods the average Zentreadi Destroyer and Carrier ships possesed was...staggering to say the least. The numbers in the revised are...much less.

And the biggest question is, how did the Zetreadi get to the 3G? A giant planet sized Rift? It would have to be because we are talkjing about millions of MILE(S) long spacecraft. Or was it a fold error? That's even more erroneous, because almoast every ship had it's own fold drive. For them to all crically fail and dimensionally teleport the whole fleet is statisticly impossible.

The other thing is if they did get 4 or 5 million ships to the 3G, how do they know where they are or who to attack. Thier maps would be of the Milky Way, not the 3G. In other words, they'd be lost. Big time.

Be that as it may, if the Zentreadi did end up in the 3G, AND that they stayed together in one enourmose fleet, the idea that the entire military might of the 3G (meaning that ALL powers work together...not gonna happen, BTW) will show up in one place is rediculous. Not gonna happen. The Zentreadi win because the rest of the 3G is too divided (politically) and too speadout.

I have more thoughts on this, I'll post later.

[gaby]

Did ther Fanctory go with them?
If not they will run out of ships,if they fight some one strong from the start like a demon fleet or the TGE?

[jaymz]

Also it depends omn if we are talking Robotech Zentraedi or Macross Zentraedi.

Robotech Zentraedi are THE fleet we see at one point in the series. In Macross that fleet is 1 of 1000 or so such fleets in the galaxy.

[Hystrix]

Did ther Fanctory go with them?
If not they will run out of ships,if they fight some one strong from the start like a demon fleet or the TGE?

Someone suggested that at least one factory came with the fleet.

I think it would be a long time before the TGE or any power block in the 3G wore down 5 million ships...

[Hystrix]

Also it depends omn if we are talking Robotech Zentraedi or Macross Zentraedi.

Robotech Zentraedi are THE fleet we see at one point in the series. In Macross that fleet is 1 of 1000 or so such fleets in the galaxy.

From what I gathered this topic is mostly about Robotech Zentreadi.

What if it were both, and the Zentan and Meltran assimilate the Zentreadi? That would suck...for the 3G that is...

[Supergyro]

There is an opportunity in this idea that could be explored very interestingly.

The aliens in the Three Galaxies are as a group all humanoid size, which is ok, but three Galaxies can be even more diverse.

The Zentraedi are large, this alters the dynamics of dealing with them. It's exciting. One could counterpoint them with other aliens, microscopic, nano-sized, others even larger! Using these as a threat is one thing, using them as a functional part of the existing powers gets even more interesting.

fun idea.

[wyrmraker]

I want...

A Zentraedi CosmoKnight....

Would not be that much more powerful than a basic knight... and wouldn't benefit the Zents at all since it would go along with what the forge urges him toward.

Actually, the full sized Zentraedi would be something the Forge sends against gods. As the writeup stands (I pulled out the ancient tome for this), their SDC is equal to their PEx100, and their strength is PSx100. Oh yes, any line Zentraedi is physically more powerful than the most powerful robot anywhere. Now translate that into supernatural statistics, and take into account that they're 50 feet tall.
So that means a massive amount of MDC, as well as a supernatural PS at roughly 2000. Add in a weapon his own size. Heck, the guy could probably wield a capitol ship cannon reconfigured as a rifle, and just hand him a 20 foot long MD sword.

[Hystrix]

I want...

A Zentraedi CosmoKnight....

Would not be that much more powerful than a basic knight... and wouldn't benefit the Zents at all since it would go along with what the forge urges him toward.

Actually, the full sized Zentraedi would be something the Forge sends against gods. As the writeup stands (I pulled out the ancient tome for this), their SDC is equal to their PEx100, and their strength is PSx100. Oh yes, any line Zentraedi is physically more powerful than the most powerful robot anywhere. Now translate that into supernatural statistics, and take into account that they're 50 feet tall.
So that means a massive amount of MDC, as well as a supernatural PS at roughly 2000. Add in a weapon his own size. Heck, the guy could probably wield a capitol ship cannon reconfigured as a rifle, and just hand him a 20 foot long MD sword.

Well, you'd have to use the new rules on Zentreadi. I don't h but IIRCave them in front of me, but IIRC, they average soldier Zentreadi has Robotic strength, and it's a normal number now not something stupid like 2000 (that really never made sence). They are also strait MDC so you'd just treat them like any other MDC race.

(yes, I know, this was all posted tounge in cheek, I just had to be a butthead about it...)

[Tyranneix]

After reading the Thundercloud Galaxy book, as the Zentraedi are a giant race (sizes from 25 to 45 feet normally) and possessing advanced technology in terms of propulsion, weaponry and genetics, would it seem prudent that any large fleet, regardless of numbers, might be seen as a return of one of the Elder Races.

That might actually bring the attention of the Dominators and they are one of the few forces that WOULD give the Zentraedi a proper curb-stomping. And that's saying a lot coming from me. Everyone knows I'm pro-Zentraedi. But those 30 miles Star Fortresses are no laughing matter (they have MILLIONS of MDC and temporal shielding among other things). And then there are the Dominator Slave warriors with that darn auto armor...

I don't know, I may have to say the Spluggies have NOTHING on the Dominators. Sad to think that the 3Gs worst ENEMY might be their best SAVIOR.

Just something to think about.

[wyrmraker]

I want...

A Zentraedi CosmoKnight....

Would not be that much more powerful than a basic knight... and wouldn't benefit the Zents at all since it would go along with what the forge urges him toward.

Actually, the full sized Zentraedi would be something the Forge sends against gods. As the writeup stands (I pulled out the ancient tome for this), their SDC is equal to their PEx100, and their strength is PSx100. Oh yes, any line Zentraedi is physically more powerful than the most powerful robot anywhere. Now translate that into supernatural statistics, and take into account that they're 50 feet tall.
So that means a massive amount of MDC, as well as a supernatural PS at roughly 2000. Add in a weapon his own size. Heck, the guy could probably wield a capitol ship cannon reconfigured as a rifle, and just hand him a 20 foot long MD sword.

Well, you'd have to use the new rules on Zentreadi. I don't h but IIRCave them in front of me, but IIRC, they average soldier Zentreadi has Robotic strength, and it's a normal number now not something stupid like 2000 (that really never made sence). They are also strait MDC so you'd just treat them like any other MDC race.

(yes, I know, this was all posted tounge in cheek, I just had to be a butthead about it...)

Actually, their strength makes sense, considering some of the robots can haul 80 tons. No, seriously. Also bear in mind that their 2000 PS is still regular strength. Also bear in mind that in the original material, the Zentraedi were wrestling with full-sized Gladiator mechs.
But since I don't have much money, I can't get the new books. And we're classicists anyways, since the original rules make sense based on the show.

[Hystrix]

I want...

A Zentraedi CosmoKnight....

Would not be that much more powerful than a basic knight... and wouldn't benefit the Zents at all since it would go along with what the forge urges him toward.

Actually, the full sized Zentraedi would be something the Forge sends against gods. As the writeup stands (I pulled out the ancient tome for this), their SDC is equal to their PEx100, and their strength is PSx100. Oh yes, any line Zentraedi is physically more powerful than the most powerful robot anywhere. Now translate that into supernatural statistics, and take into account that they're 50 feet tall.
So that means a massive amount of MDC, as well as a supernatural PS at roughly 2000. Add in a weapon his own size. Heck, the guy could probably wield a capitol ship cannon reconfigured as a rifle, and just hand him a 20 foot long MD sword.

Well, you'd have to use the new rules on Zentreadi. I don't h but IIRCave them in front of me, but IIRC, they average soldier Zentreadi has Robotic strength, and it's a normal number now not something stupid like 2000 (that really never made sence). They are also strait MDC so you'd just treat them like any other MDC race.

(yes, I know, this was all posted tounge in cheek, I just had to be a butthead about it...)

Actually, their strength makes sense, considering some of the robots can haul 80 tons. No, seriously. Also bear in mind that their 2000 PS is still regular strength. Also bear in mind that in the original material, the Zentraedi were wrestling with full-sized Gladiator mechs.
But since I don't have much money, I can't get the new books. And we're classicists anyways, since the original rules make sense based on the show.

I liked the orginial books. tHey were the first PB material I ever bought. However, the orignals:

- Made the Zentreadi 60 feet tall, meaning they couldn't fit in there own mecha.
- They were also leaps and bounds taller than human mecha (In the cartoon we see that they are the same size)
- Battle Pods were pathetically wimpy in the original. Seriously there is human-sized body armor that has more MDC. Heck, most Zentreadi outside there own mecha had more MDC.
- The strenghth thing was crazy. Of course gthose rules were before Rifts was a game. Giving them robotic or supernatural strength makes more sence.
- The numbers in the Zentreadi spaceships didn't maker sense. As cool as have 30,000 Giant Zentreadi in a ship was, there is just no way that many could fit in there.
- That being said, a Zentreadi Salan Scout Ship had more mecha in it than the SDF-1.

That's just some of the issues with the first generation stuff. I liked the old books, but the new ones make more sense...

[Seto Kaiba]

I liked the original books. They were the first PB material I ever bought. However, the originals:

- Made the Zentreadi 60 feet tall, meaning they couldn't fit in there own mecha.

Eh... both the "old" and "new" Robotech have had plenty of problems with the size of the Zentradi. Palladium was far from the only one to cite an exaggerated size. The actual average size for Zentradi was 5x Human size, or 9-10m (~30-33ft), making them marginally shorter than a VF-1 battroid. Being 50-60ft tall would be right out, since even Britai (who was the second tallest Zentradi in the series and towered head and shoulders above all of the rank-and-file) was only 86cm (34") taller than a VF-1.

Even new stuff like the Prelude miniseries isn't immune to slip-ups, since the artists behind that apparently forgot that Britai was both the only blue-skinned Zentradi and also substantially taller than average, since they drew ALL Zentradi as being blue-skinned nine foot tall giants when micronized (who somehow fit perfectly into bioroid cockpits that were visibly cramped even for a man less than six feet tall).

- The numbers in the Zentreadi spaceships didn't maker sense. As cool as have 30,000 Giant Zentreadi in a ship was, there is just no way that many could fit in there.
- That being said, a Zentreadi Salan Scout Ship had more mecha in it than the SDF-1.

It's an understandable mistake to make... most people would look at the official dimensions from the OSM and think "Wow, that's a MASSIVE ship! It must have a huge crew and a lot of mecha!", without also accounting for the fact that the crews of those ships are also five times the size of an ordinary human in all dimensions. If you scaled the Zentradi ships to a human-sized crew, the largest ship they have would be less than 2/3 the size of the SDF-1 Macross, and the fleet picket (scout ship) would only be about 33% longer than a normal commercial jetliner.

[keir451]

I was recently looking back thru the main RPG and realized the the spell "Impervious to Energy" is a Ritual and the range is listed as "self or others". This would seem to exclude objects, making the UWW starships extremely vulnerable to the energy weapons of the Zentraedi ships. There's also a lack of info as to how long it takes to perform the ritual.

[DhAkael]

I was recently looking back thru the main RPG and realized the the spell "Impervious to Energy" is a Ritual and the range is listed as "self or others". This would seem to exclude objects, making the UWW starships extremely vulnerable to the energy weapons of the Zentraedi ships. There's also a lack of info as to how long it takes to perform the ritual.

the spell can be used in Techno-wizard devices / vehicles.
and is done so numerous times.
Also, please look at the TW fighter craft in Phaseworld main-book.
not being snarky; just saying it's Palladium being vaguge and contradicting themselves for sake of "rool of kewl"..or maybe the spell CAN be cast on objects with out TW intervention...
when all else fails... ask your GM on HIS/HER ruling and ignore the book. Cuz as a PLAYER, you really shouldn't be second guessing your gm... should you?

[keir451]

I was recently looking back thru the main RPG and realized the the spell "Impervious to Energy" is a Ritual and the range is listed as "self or others". This would seem to exclude objects, making the UWW starships extremely vulnerable to the energy weapons of the Zentraedi ships. There's also a lack of info as to how long it takes to perform the ritual.

the spell can be used in Techno-wizard devices / vehicles.
and is done so numerous times.
Also, please look at the TW fighter craft in Phaseworld main-book.
not being snarky; just saying it's Palladium being vaguge and contradicting themselves for sake of "rool of kewl"..or maybe the spell CAN be cast on objects with out TW intervention...
when all else fails... ask your GM on HIS/HER ruling and ignore the book. Cuz as a PLAYER, you really shouldn't be second guessing your gm... should you?

The problem is I'M the GM. So apparently I'm second guesssing MYSELF If I follow the concept of Arthur C. Clarke in that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistuguishable from magic", then I could say that the energy weapons of the Zentraedi/Macross vessels represent an extremely high level of magic. Beyond what most mages are even capable of. IIRC there are no massive planet destroying spells where as Zentran ships in sufficient numbers can apparently destroy a planets bio-sphere (maybe even more), at the very least they can inflict millions of points of damage to a planet.
This mainly just a thought concept so i've no real ideas at this point. CURSED BRAIN!!!!! FUNCTION D**N YOOOOUUUUU!!!!

[KLM]

Hi there!

then I could say that the energy weapons of the Zentraedi/Macross vessels represent an extremely high level of magic. Beyond what most mages are even capable of. IIRC there are no massive planet destroying spells where as Zentran ships in sufficient numbers can apparently destroy a planets bio-sphere (maybe even more), at the very least they can inflict millions of points of damage to a planet.

My two virtual cents:
1, 3G ranges and speeds are pathetic - except two sentences in DMB2 (namely the mini-missile range of the Silverhawk and
the main guns of the Karthum-Terek (sp?) "land battleship" of the TGE).

2, Watching Robotech (again, after like 25 years) it looks like that the ships are more primitive than 3G navies' vessels should be.

3, A single Protector battleship said to be able to devastate a planet.

So, IMO Zentraedi wouldn't be such a mythically advanced foe.

Adios
KLM

[Colonel Wolfe]

Hi there!

My two virtual cents:
1, 3G ranges and speeds are pathetic - except two sentences in DMB2 (namely the mini-missile range of the Silverhawk and
the main guns of the Karthum-Terek (sp?) "land battleship" of the TGE).

The Rules as Written (RaW) have the Zents with superior ranges.

2, Watching Robotech (again, after like 25 years) it looks like that the ships are more primitive than 3G navies' vessels should be.

The Zentradie use Technology that has 500,000 year of advancement behind it, sure phaseworld may be older, but The Zents stat wise beat them hands down.

3, A single Protector battleship said to be able to devastate a planet.

Thou I'm not familiar with the Protector Battleship, That sounds alot like "Fluff text" rather than something that can be rolled out with the stats on paper.
infact, most of the Protector's "anti-planet" weapons wouldn't reach the planets surface from orbit...

So, IMO Zentraedi wouldn't be such a mythically advanced foe.

The stats would mildly disagree. if the Protector is the best 3G has to offer in capital ships... a Ship not as large as the Zent's Scout ship...

[KLM]

Hi there!

The Rules as Written (RaW) have the Zents with superior ranges.

As for RaW, it is wise to weld a few tanks and Triax tires (or Dead Boy armor) to the hull
of a battleship, to make it a hundred times more effective.

So much for RaW.

Adios
KLM

[Hystrix]

Hi there!

The Rules as Written (RaW) have the Zents with superior ranges.

As for RaW, it is wise to weld a few tanks and Triax tires (or Dead Boy armor) to the hull
of a battleship, to make it a hundred times more effective.

So much for RaW.

Adios
KLM

That's kind of a cop out answer don't you think?

Were has it been written that anyone welds body armor or tiers to a battle ship?
Please stop with the "Protector can destroy a planet" thing. No one buys it. It was a bad write up in fluff text with no suppport. You know that...

[Colonel Wolfe]

Hi there!

The Rules as Written (RaW) have the Zents with superior ranges.

As for RaW, it is wise to weld a few tanks and Triax tires (or Dead Boy armor) to the hull
of a battleship, to make it a hundred times more effective.

So much for RaW.

Adios
KLM

and the Same can be done to the Zents hulls (Hovertanks, Cyclone tires, CVR-3 armor), heck, since the Zents have more hull space, they can add more armor.
so in the end it gets no where in the debate.

[keir451]

@ Colonel Wolfe; I agree. It's one of those arguments that will generally go nowhere.
My question as a GM, I guess, is equivalent to Immovable Object vs Irresistable Force. Impervious to energy vs "Destroys EVERYTHING in its path..." (the standard description for Rt/Macross vessels w/the massive particle beams). Do we just say that Imp. to Energ. wins out, or do we say that a weapon that "Destroys EVERYTHING in its path regardless of MDC and movement" (p. 11, Macross 2 Deck plans Vol. 1) wins out instead? Is there a theoretical "upper limit" to the amount of damage the spell can take?

[Colonel Wolfe]

The Exact wording of Imp. to Energy:
:Energy attacks do no Damage whatsoever.

Synchro/Reflex/Heavy PBC's "Destroy everything in their path"

since its not Damage, IMP to energy is technically useless.

[Kovoston]

Zentradi against the Dominators??? Two giant races battle it out!

[jaymz]

The stats would mildly disagree. if the Protector is the best 3G has to offer in capital ships... a Ship not as large as the Zent's Scout ship...

Actually the protector is about the size of the SDF-1 with more MDC than the New Edition Zentraedi Flagship.

Versus a New Edition Zentraedi Destroyer (Standard Battleship/Ship of the line) a protector has 3 times the MDC and the main guns do triple the damage but are still way over matched for range by a factor of 300+ not to mention their fighter comlement woudl be outnumbered about 20-1.

Just playing a bit of devil's advocate in regards to the Protector in as much as it isn't AS bad as some may think but it IS still outclassed overall.

[Nightmask]

The Exact wording of Imp. to Energy:
:Energy attacks do no Damage whatsoever.

Synchro/Reflex/Heavy PBC's "Destroy everything in their path"

since its not Damage, IMP to energy is technically useless.

So exactly how is 'destroys everything' NOT qualified as damage? Particularly when it's given a damage rating when impacting a planet. The only real questions are is the attack a matter or energy blast (must be energy since if it were matter you'd have matter left behind for one) and whether or not there's something special about the energy that would bypass the protection provided by the spell (like the UTI energy weapons from Juicer Uprising that could even deal direct damage to Cosmo-Knights).

Without anything for comparison we can't argue that the energy is special and it's really just a massive burst of energy that overwhelms pretty much every conventional item in its path (with perhaps the exception being the full force field barrier of the SDF-1, it's been shown taking and absorbing energy barrages easily in the range of the main cannon). So there's no reason to think the Impervious to Energy spell wouldn't work against the main cannon's attack.

[Colonel Wolfe]

So exactly how is 'destroys everything' NOT qualified as damage? Particularly when it's given a damage rating when impacting a planet. The only real questions are is the attack a matter or energy blast (must be energy since if it were matter you'd have matter left behind for one) and whether or not there's something special about the energy that would bypass the protection provided by the spell (like the UTI energy weapons from Juicer Uprising that could even deal direct damage to Cosmo-Knights).

Without anything for comparison we can't argue that the energy is special and it's really just a massive burst of energy that overwhelms pretty much every conventional item in its path (with perhaps the exception being the full force field barrier of the SDF-1, it's been shown taking and absorbing energy barrages easily in the range of the main cannon). So there's no reason to think the Impervious to Energy spell wouldn't work against the main cannon's attack.

Because its not listed as a Damage.
and the Term "Everything" is more the qualifier than "Destroys". since the Spell is Generic in nature, it can't qualify for every instance for special weapons. The Weapons would be exceptions to the Rules. as Reflex weapons list no Damage verses smaller than planetary-sized objects, thus deal no Damage to them, simply make them no longer exist.
in the cases where it Deal Damage to Planets... a Planet with Imp to energy cast on it would ignore the Damage it deals.

[Tyranneix]

Zentradi against the Dominators??? Two giant races battle it out!

It would be very interesting indeed!

[keir451]

The Exact wording of Imp. to Energy:
:Energy attacks do no Damage whatsoever.

Synchro/Reflex/Heavy PBC's "Destroy everything in their path"

since its not Damage, IMP to energy is technically useless.

So exactly how is 'destroys everything' NOT qualified as damage? Particularly when it's given a damage rating when impacting a planet. The only real questions are is the attack a matter or energy blast (must be energy since if it were matter you'd have matter left behind for one) and whether or not there's something special about the energy that would bypass the protection provided by the spell (like the UTI energy weapons from Juicer Uprising that could even deal direct damage to Cosmo-Knights).

Without anything for comparison we can't argue that the energy is special and it's really just a massive burst of energy that overwhelms pretty much every conventional item in its path (with perhaps the exception being the full force field barrier of the SDF-1, it's been shown taking and absorbing energy barrages easily in the range of the main cannon). So there's no reason to think the Impervious to Energy spell wouldn't work against the main cannon's attack.

The qualifier I would add is that the main gun is a "PARTICLE beam", the ship is essentially throwing charged matter at light speeds. The "energy" technically come from the impact/breakdown of said particles, much like in a particle accelerator. So the Impervious to Energy spell on "X" ship is being hit by (possibly trillions) of charged particles of matter which detonate upon impact, resulting in a kinetic impact. Even if I half the damge from the energy released, the kinetic impact is still 1d6 x ONE MILLION MDC. That STILL destroys "everything' in its path, unless whatever it hit has more than 12 miliion MDC (adjusted for possible max critical damage).
Thank you guys, tho'. You just helped me solve a personal "Rules Dilemma" I've had for the past 20 yrs.

[Nightmask]

The Exact wording of Imp. to Energy:
:Energy attacks do no Damage whatsoever.

Synchro/Reflex/Heavy PBC's "Destroy everything in their path"

since its not Damage, IMP to energy is technically useless.

So exactly how is 'destroys everything' NOT qualified as damage? Particularly when it's given a damage rating when impacting a planet. The only real questions are is the attack a matter or energy blast (must be energy since if it were matter you'd have matter left behind for one) and whether or not there's something special about the energy that would bypass the protection provided by the spell (like the UTI energy weapons from Juicer Uprising that could even deal direct damage to Cosmo-Knights).

Without anything for comparison we can't argue that the energy is special and it's really just a massive burst of energy that overwhelms pretty much every conventional item in its path (with perhaps the exception being the full force field barrier of the SDF-1, it's been shown taking and absorbing energy barrages easily in the range of the main cannon). So there's no reason to think the Impervious to Energy spell wouldn't work against the main cannon's attack.

The qualifier I would add is that the main gun is a "PARTICLE beam", the ship is essentially throwing charged matter at light speeds. The "energy" technically come from the impact/breakdown of said particles, much like in a particle accelerator. So the Impervious to Energy spell on "X" ship is being hit by (possibly trillions) of charged particles of matter which detonate upon impact, resulting in a kinetic impact. Even if I half the damge from the energy released, the kinetic impact is still 1d6 x ONE MILLION MDC. That STILL destroys "everything' in its path, unless whatever it hit has more than 12 miliion MDC (adjusted for possible max critical damage).
Thank you guys, tho'. You just helped me solve a personal "Rules Dilemma" I've had for the past 20 yrs.

Particle beam weapons are still treated as energy weapons, otherwise they'd be considered kinetic energy/super-rail-gun weapons and they obviously aren't.

[Nightmask]

So exactly how is 'destroys everything' NOT qualified as damage? Particularly when it's given a damage rating when impacting a planet. The only real questions are is the attack a matter or energy blast (must be energy since if it were matter you'd have matter left behind for one) and whether or not there's something special about the energy that would bypass the protection provided by the spell (like the UTI energy weapons from Juicer Uprising that could even deal direct damage to Cosmo-Knights).

Without anything for comparison we can't argue that the energy is special and it's really just a massive burst of energy that overwhelms pretty much every conventional item in its path (with perhaps the exception being the full force field barrier of the SDF-1, it's been shown taking and absorbing energy barrages easily in the range of the main cannon). So there's no reason to think the Impervious to Energy spell wouldn't work against the main cannon's attack.

Because its not listed as a Damage.
and the Term "Everything" is more the qualifier than "Destroys". since the Spell is Generic in nature, it can't qualify for every instance for special weapons. The Weapons would be exceptions to the Rules. as Reflex weapons list no Damage verses smaller than planetary-sized objects, thus deal no Damage to them, simply make them no longer exist.
in the cases where it Deal Damage to Planets... a Planet with Imp to energy cast on it would ignore the Damage it deals.

You realize how unrealistic that statement is right? 'Well it isn't listed as damage so it isn't even though it clearly damages something out of existence'. A mind control spell? No damage. Big-@$$ energy beam? Damage. Seriously, the qualifier is destroys, as in damages, because you can't destroy something without damaging it. There's nothing about its 'destroys everything' label that makes it a special weapon, the thing wasn't even designed with the idea of special abilities like the Impervious to Energy spell to have to overcome. It's just a lot of energy meant to overwhelm all defenses that they know about.

You're drawing a very unsupported conclusion trying to claim it doesn't do any damage to anything smaller than a planet and then it does damage, otherwise the target just ceases to exist. It must obviously do damage to eliminate something, unless it's explicitly noted to be a weapon that rifts targets away or otherwise has some special effect rather than just immeasurable by current means energy it blasts out to vaporize what it hits. But this isn't supported by the animation as we see ships being hit and buckling before finally exploding so it's hitting them with a massive barrage of energy until what's in its path vaporizes and is reduced to sub-atomic particles and energy.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Impervious to energy doesn't' state it makes the target immune to "Destroy" effects... only Damage effects.
and the RPG is different than the Show, how the RPG executes if different. namely the Cyclones are never seen surviving more then a single hit, yet a basic cyclone in the RPG can take 15-20 hits.
Reflex level weapons are Annihilation events. only Dealing Damage to Planets, as they are beyond the scope of "Destroy Everything".
In the Game, only Items specifically stated to resist a Reflex level weapon are immune, namely ships protected by Pin-point barriers.

[Nightmask]

Impervious to energy doesn't' state it makes the target immune to "Destroy" effects... only Damage effects.
and the RPG is different than the Show, how the RPG executes if different. namely the Cyclones are never seen surviving more then a single hit, yet a basic cyclone in the RPG can take 15-20 hits.
Reflex level weapons are Annihilation events. only Dealing Damage to Planets, as they are beyond the scope of "Destroy Everything".
In the Game, only Items specifically stated to resist a Reflex level weapon are immune, namely ships protected by Pin-point barriers.

You're really completely missing the point if you think they aren't dealing damage to everything. Logically you can't destroy something if you don't damage it, it's impossible. The entire basis of the word 'destroy' requires you to damage something beyond recognition, I just can't see how you can't fathom that unless you're intentionally ignoring the meaning because to recognize it as it is requires conceding that the Impervious to Energy spell would work against the main cannon of the SDF-1 and similar weapons. I mean really, if something's dealing billions of points of damage and nothing in the RPG setting outside of a planet can technically reach that level of course there's no point to listing the damage BUT that's not the case here, we're dealing with something that's NOT from the original setting and therefor has what it takes to survive the attack unscathed, just as someone using Hyperdensity would be immune to the attack (although he'd better have support powers to survive the aftermath, like Space Native and Flight: Space if in space for example).

Also Pin-Point barriers do not render the vehicles using them immune to the beam cannon, they provide a CHANCE of survival, with a good chance of the barrier system temporarily or permanently failing from blocking such a massive energy burst.

[Colonel Wolfe]

The Weapon doesn't say it deals 1 Billion Mega-Damage to all objects, it says it "Destroys" them.
yes, Destroy implies Damage, but the Game system isn't based on Real-life Physics, nor is Magic.
The Game stats say :Weapon"Destroy Everything", the Spell "Immune to Damage"... 2 different stats.
This is only a Level 6 Spell, that costs 20 ppe, its not a Spell of Legend that Makes the Caster Immortal, and immune to being destroyed.

[Nightmask]

The Weapon doesn't say it deals 1 Billion Mega-Damage to all objects, it says it "Destroys" them.
yes, Destroy implies Damage, but the Game system isn't based on Real-life Physics, nor is Magic.
The Game stats say :Weapon"Destroy Everything", the Spell "Immune to Damage"... 2 different stats.
This is only a Level 6 Spell, that costs 20 ppe, its not a Spell of Legend that Makes the Caster Immortal, and immune to being destroyed.

No, it's a spell that makes you immune to energy and it doesn't have a cut-off. Since the weapon destroys everything using energy (and I haven't seen anyone give a plausible justification for how it isn't an energy attack) and the spells protects against any level of energy then it protects against the Beam Cannon. Yes I know, what a horrible thought that there's an exception to what it can destroy, an exception based on something from another universe. Terrible that dealing with stuff outside the setting where it's supreme it's not quite as supreme but that's just how it goes. Not like it's something that would come up on a regular basis or that there can't be some 'splashover' caused by the possible tidal effects of being caught by such a powerful weapon.

Of course use something like that in the Three Galaxies and you can expect either overwhelming force to be mounted against you because they can't possibly let something like that roam around free OR a range of attacks intended to capture said weapon and deploy it for their particular side. Given Zentraedi vehicles don't come with Force Fields I imagine a phase ship could get inside really easy, and normally the SDF-series of craft don't come with the field always up either.

[Seto Kaiba]

No, it's a spell that makes you immune to energy and it doesn't have a cut-off. Since the weapon destroys everything using energy (and I haven't seen anyone give a plausible justification for how it isn't an energy attack) and the spells protects against any level of energy then it protects against the Beam Cannon.

As I understand it, the spell in question protects against energy but not kinetic force... particle beam weapons derive most of their destructive potential from the kinetic force imparted by atomic or subatomic particles moving at relativistic speeds. I don't actually have said book (I just remember it being explained to me that way, that said spell provides no protection against projectiles), so my statement may not actually apply.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Reading the wording of the Spell, it doesn't directly refer to PBCs as being items its immune to.
as a PBC simply accelerates atoms to nearly the Speed to Light.
Is that any different than someone firing an Arrow at high speed. (Accelerating Atoms again).
they are Classified as energy weapons, but aren't Fire (Plasma) or Lasers things the Spell list as it being immune to. the Fact the Spell is so poorly worded is part of the General problem with Palladium system. Don't see these problems as often in D20.
but I'm not convinced the Spell is designed to be the "Win All" of the Rifts universe this thread seams to believe it is...

[Nightmask]

No, it's a spell that makes you immune to energy and it doesn't have a cut-off. Since the weapon destroys everything using energy (and I haven't seen anyone give a plausible justification for how it isn't an energy attack) and the spells protects against any level of energy then it protects against the Beam Cannon.

As I understand it, the spell in question protects against energy but not kinetic force... particle beam weapons derive most of their destructive potential from the kinetic force imparted by atomic or subatomic particles moving at relativistic speeds. I don't actually have said book (I just remember it being explained to me that way, that said spell provides no protection against projectiles), so my statement may not actually apply.

Particle Beam Weapons aren't kinetic energy weapons, by that argument ALL weapons are kinetic energy weapons. Laser beams? Particles of light impacting an object. Ion weapons? Again particles hitting a target, and so on. They inflict damage by dumping all the energy in the particles into the target as a range of hard radiations and heat, not from kinetic energy impact which is minimal (otherwise the recoil of the weapon would send you flying backward and something like the main weapon of the SDF-1 would send it backwards at half the speed of light probably if it didn't destroy it otherwise).

So to be impervious to energy it has to cover everything that's not explicitly kinetic, like a rail gun round or fist of a veritech.

[Nightmask]

Reading the wording of the Spell, it doesn't directly refer to PBCs as being items its immune to.
as a PBC simply accelerates atoms to nearly the Speed to Light.
Is that any different than someone firing an Arrow at high speed. (Accelerating Atoms again).
they are Classified as energy weapons, but aren't Fire (Plasma) or Lasers things the Spell list as it being immune to. the Fact the Spell is so poorly worded is part of the General problem with Palladium system. Don't see these problems as often in D20.
but I'm not convinced the Spell is designed to be the "Win All" of the Rifts universe this thread seams to believe it is...

Yes, it's very much different. Their is a world of difference between the macroscopic world of the arrow and the sub-atomic world of the energy weapon. In the case of objects like arrows you have the atoms coming into opposition with the atoms of the target trying to break them apart via the electron shell repulsive forces. For the energy weapons you're attempting to excite the atoms so that they want to change state (from solid to liquid or gas or even plasma) or with enough energy even break down into naked nuclei or even shatter the proton/neutron core as well.

I'm not saying the spell is a slam dunk item either, just pointing out there's nothing to say the beam cannons of craft like the SDF-1 while unbeatable in the Robotech setting aren't so supreme in other settings where technologies have gone beyond them and there are such unfathomable things like magic that can do what the most advanced pure technology can't.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Particle Beam Weapons aren't kinetic energy weapons, by that argument ALL weapons are kinetic energy weapons. Laser beams? Particles of light impacting an object. Ion weapons? Again particles hitting a target, and so on. They inflict damage by dumping all the energy in the particles into the target as a range of hard radiations and heat, not from kinetic energy impact which is minimal (otherwise the recoil of the weapon would send you flying backward and something like the main weapon of the SDF-1 would send it backwards at half the speed of light probably if it didn't destroy it otherwise).

So to be impervious to energy it has to cover everything that's not explicitly kinetic, like a rail gun round or fist of a veritech.

Laser = Heat = Fire
Ion = Electricity
Plasma = Fire
all things the Spell covers.

a Particle beam is simply Charges particles being accelerated. no diffrent than a Rail gun round.

also, PBC's in Robotech are Kinetic Weapons, as the PBC's of the Officer's Battle pod knocks over mecha sized targets.
the VHT can knock down targets weighing as much as 100,000 Lbs with its Particle Canon.

[Nightmask]

Particle Beam Weapons aren't kinetic energy weapons, by that argument ALL weapons are kinetic energy weapons. Laser beams? Particles of light impacting an object. Ion weapons? Again particles hitting a target, and so on. They inflict damage by dumping all the energy in the particles into the target as a range of hard radiations and heat, not from kinetic energy impact which is minimal (otherwise the recoil of the weapon would send you flying backward and something like the main weapon of the SDF-1 would send it backwards at half the speed of light probably if it didn't destroy it otherwise).

So to be impervious to energy it has to cover everything that's not explicitly kinetic, like a rail gun round or fist of a veritech.

Laser = Heat = Fire
Ion = Electricity
Plasma = Fire
all things the Spell covers.

a Particle beam is simply Charges particles being accelerated. no diffrent than a Rail gun round.

also, PBC's in Robotech are Kinetic Weapons, as the PBC's of the Officer's Battle pod knocks over mecha sized targets.

No, a particle beam is nothing like a rail gun round. They are not doing their damage by bashing against a target like a slug from a rail gun, they're directly attacking the atoms themselves as the charged particles dump energy as a range of hard radiation as they decelerate, attempt to rip or give up electrons to the environment to try and return to an electrically neutral state, and give up at least some of the energy as it downshifts as light.

Also, Laser does not equal fire, nor does plasma. Heat is not the same as fire. Fire is a chemical reaction, heat is a wavelength of energy in the electromagnetic spectrum.

[Colonel Wolfe]

No, a particle beam is nothing like a rail gun round. They are not doing their damage by bashing against a target like a slug from a rail gun, they're directly attacking the atoms themselves as the charged particles dump energy as a range of hard radiation as they decelerate, attempt to rip or give up electrons to the environment to try and return to an electrically neutral state, and give up at least some of the energy as it downshifts as light.

Also, Laser does not equal fire, nor does plasma. Heat is not the same as fire. Fire is a chemical reaction, heat is a wavelength of energy in the electromagnetic spectrum.

I'll repeat:
also, PBC's in Robotech are Kinetic Weapons, as the PC's of the Officer's Battle pod knocks over mecha sized targets.
and the VHT can knock down targets weighing as much as 100,000 Lbs with its Particle Canon.

[Seto Kaiba]

Particle Beam Weapons aren't kinetic energy weapons, by that argument ALL weapons are kinetic energy weapons.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airc ... berds.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_beam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_beam_weapon

Yes they are.

Laser beams? Particles of light impacting an object.

But the primary mode of damage from laser weaponry is surface heating rather than raw application of kinetic force, because photons have no rest mass.

Ion weapons? Again particles hitting a target, and so on.

Ion weapons are particle beam weapons.

They inflict damage by dumping all the energy in the particles into the target as a range of hard radiations and heat, not from kinetic energy impact which is minimal

Incorrect, refer to the above links please... particularly the one from the US Air Force's website.

The particle weapons seen in Robotech clearly do impart kinetic force, since we see (for example) the SDF-1's main gun stripping plates of metal from ships unfortunate enough to even be NEAR the beam...

[Nightmask]

No, a particle beam is nothing like a rail gun round. They are not doing their damage by bashing against a target like a slug from a rail gun, they're directly attacking the atoms themselves as the charged particles dump energy as a range of hard radiation as they decelerate, attempt to rip or give up electrons to the environment to try and return to an electrically neutral state, and give up at least some of the energy as it downshifts as light.

Also, Laser does not equal fire, nor does plasma. Heat is not the same as fire. Fire is a chemical reaction, heat is a wavelength of energy in the electromagnetic spectrum.

I'll repeat:
also, PBC's in Robotech are Kinetic Weapons, as the PC's of the Officer's Battle pod knocks over mecha sized targets.
and the VHT can knock down targets weighing as much as 100,000 Lbs with its Particle Canon.

Or it could be falling over from the explosive release of vaporized armor caused by the attack, far more logical than the idea the energy beam itself is doing so since that would mean it was generating force up there like heavy duty rail guns like the Glitter Boy Boom Gun yet the mecha firing the weapons show ZERO problems with recoil. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, that still applies even to energy weapons. The amount of force put out by the Particle beam cannon pushes back on the object unleashing it. So either the VHT is somehow immune to the recoil required to knock down that 50 TON object OR the object is falling over courtesy of the blowback as a chunk of it explodes into vapor. Given your stance I imagine you're going to go with the 'particle beam weapons violate physics by having no recoil while delivering implausible levels of kinetic force to a target'.

[Nightmask]

Particle Beam Weapons aren't kinetic energy weapons, by that argument ALL weapons are kinetic energy weapons.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airc ... berds.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_beam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_beam_weapon

Yes they are.

Laser beams? Particles of light impacting an object.

But the primary mode of damage from laser weaponry is surface heating rather than raw application of kinetic force, because photons have no rest mass.

Ion weapons? Again particles hitting a target, and so on.

Ion weapons are particle beam weapons.

They inflict damage by dumping all the energy in the particles into the target as a range of hard radiations and heat, not from kinetic energy impact which is minimal

Incorrect, refer to the above links please... particularly the one from the US Air Force's website.

The particle weapons seen in Robotech clearly do impart kinetic force, since we see (for example) the SDF-1's main gun stripping plates of metal from ships unfortunate enough to even be NEAR the beam...

Have YOU read the links? Like the part in the entry on Particle Beam Weapon that refers to it as a 'Directed-Energy Weapon', NOT a Kinetic energy weapon? That acts to break down the atomic and molecular structure of the target? Certainly not what a kinetic energy weapon does.

[Seto Kaiba]

Have YOU read the links? Like the part in the entry on Particle Beam Weapon that refers to it as a 'Directed-Energy Weapon', NOT a Kinetic energy weapon? That acts to break down the atomic and molecular structure of the target? Certainly not what a kinetic energy weapon does.

Yes, I have... clearly you haven't, or you would notice that particle beam weapons are described as relying on kinetic force to deal damage. Kinetic energy is *gasp* a type of energy after all. Please consult the "Particle Beam Weapon" article and look at #6 in the "Beam Generation" section:

The particle beam proceeds straight to its target, and damages it by running into it, and by disrupting the structure of the target with its kinetic energy.

You may also wish to note that "Directed Energy Weaponry" is an umbrella term covering weapons which utilize either electromagnetic radiation (LASER, MASER), particles with mass (kinetic!), sound (also technically kinetic).

[Nightmask]

Have YOU read the links? Like the part in the entry on Particle Beam Weapon that refers to it as a 'Directed-Energy Weapon', NOT a Kinetic energy weapon? That acts to break down the atomic and molecular structure of the target? Certainly not what a kinetic energy weapon does.

Yes, I have... clearly you haven't, or you would notice that particle beam weapons are described as relying on kinetic force to deal damage. Kinetic energy is *gasp* a type of energy after all. Please consult the "Particle Beam Weapon" article and look at #6 in the "Beam Generation" section:

The particle beam proceeds straight to its target, and damages it by running into it, and by disrupting the structure of the target with its kinetic energy.

You may also wish to note that "Directed Energy Weaponry" is an umbrella term covering weapons which utilize either electromagnetic radiation (LASER, MASER), particles with mass (kinetic!), sound (also technically kinetic).

Sorry but you really need more than wiki entries to support your claim, and it's pointless to keep going back and forth because you want it one way and I disagree and that's where it's going to end because neither of us is going to change the other's opinion so it's 'agree to disagree' time and drop it. Go back to dealing with the main point of the thread.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

:sighs:

HPW-125A1 Particle Cannon (VHT-1A1, VHT-1A3): This 125mm particle cannon replaced the MCR-86A1 105mm Cannon in later model Hover Tanks in 2029. Its fires a stream of charged particles over long distances and delivers a massive amount of kinetic, armor piercing damage.
..........................
Note: The HPW-125A1 delivers a stream of charged particles moving at the speed of light. The gun hits like a wrecking ball, and any mecha under 50 tons hit by a blast has a chance of being knocked down.

- P. 97, The Masters Saga Sourcebook

[Colonel Wolfe]

:sighs:

HPW-125A1 Particle Cannon (VHT-1A1, VHT-1A3): This 125mm particle cannon replaced the MCR-86A1 105mm Cannon in later model Hover Tanks in 2029. Its fires a stream of charged particles over long distances and delivers a massive amount of kinetic, armor piercing damage.
..........................
Note: The HPW-125A1 delivers a stream of charged particles moving at the speed of light. The gun hits like a wrecking ball, and any mecha under 50 tons hit by a blast has a chance of being knocked down.

- P. 97, The Masters Saga Sourcebook

All that sounds alot like a Arrow, or a Bullet... just Kinetic force being applied to Atoms.
That means Particle Canons in Robotech are Kinetic weapons, weather they are in Rifts or not.

[Seto Kaiba]

Sorry but you really need more than wiki entries to support your claim, and it's pointless to keep going back and forth because you want it one way and I disagree and that's where it's going to end because neither of us is going to change the other's opinion so it's 'agree to disagree' time and drop it. Go back to dealing with the main point of the thread.

It's in the USAF website article too... and plenty of the scholarly papers referenced in the Wikipedia articles as well. Of course, as Rabid Southern Cross Fan just illustrated (Thanks for that, BTW), particle beam weapons in the Robotech RPG definitely function the way physics says they should... by imparting kinetic energy to the target. Since the aforementioned spell only seems to cover non-kinetic energy weapons, it should provide no protection against particle weapons.