Suspension of Disbelief in Rifts

[Nightmask]

As I have said I run a different style of game. One in which I use the general concepts of physics and apply them equally to ALL levels of the game. Either physics applies to everything in the game equally or it doesn't apply at all, either a dragon can have his head smashed by taking too much MDC, either from a fall or a robots punches or according to you he's immune to all forms of MDC damage?
Which is it? Simple fact if I inflict enough MDC to kill a dragon either by punching him, shooting him, or dropping him from a building or from orbit then I've inflicted enough MDC to kill him. Your argument is equivalent to saying that the dragon does not bleed, does not have internal organs that can be crushed by extreme forces, or brains that can be rattled around inside their skulls by sufficient force. And yet you assert that this very biology is what allows it to take damage differently than an armored vehicle.
MY argument is that despite being MDC the dragon can and does bleed, can be concussed, and (again) if sufficient damage is taken can be killed. It just takes equivalent force, effectively the same amount of force it takes to destroy a 'bot, a tank, or any equivalently armored being/vehicle (MDC is MDC after all), I'm just applying a level of physics and common sense that works across the board.
Again I point out that at YOUR gaming table I will follow YOUR rules, at MY gaming table I expect you to follow MY rules.
What the dragon is really taking damage from is not the fall or the material it is striking but from its own inertia. Since the dragon is MDC he takes MDC.

No, the argument is that the dragon or other MDC creature has organs that don't consider these forces to be so extreme or troublesome like an SDC creature does, and generally for things like dragons no they do not in fact have tissues that will suffer from blood loss because they regenerate enough that injuries that would result in blood loss on a mere SDC creature heal before they can suffer any added injury due to them. So while you may think you're applying common sense you aren't, because you aren't taking into account that you're treating an MDC creature as if it were an SDC creature and they aren't the same thing. They aren't built the same as an SDC creature (how many SDC creatures do you know of that have unbreakable bones and can heal from near death to full health in a few minutes or hour?), if they were they'd be SDC creatures not MDC creatures.

Common sense would say a creature hundreds of times more durable than another creature is unaffected by things that would harm or kill the lesser creature and what is required to threaten them must be threats that are scaled to their level of durability and protection from harm. You ignore a paper cut as an SDC being because it's simply not at a level to really threaten you, a dragon ignores a fall off of a cliff for the same reason, because that falling damage might be a significant threat to the SDC guy but he's not so weak a thing. An example of which in a milder case would be seen in Robotech when Breetai manages to walk across the hull of his ship in the vacuum of space, find and enter an airlock then trash the Robotech pilots inside and when a trooper seems incredulous about it he replies 'I'm not made of such weaker stuff as you.' The catch phase for the MDC dragon, he's not made of such weaker stuff that such mundane mortal concerns are concerns he needs care about.

[keir451]

So it's unbalanced compared to all the other unbalancing things in Rifts, like large scale weapons doing the equivalent of hand held weapons or everyoneleses cries of "munchkin" everytime the CS(or other tech group) gets a tech upgrade? Or how about the Lenwen special a T-Archer w/over 1,700 MD? As GM it is my discretion what rules to apply, I choose to apply a standard that makes sense to me from my perspective as one has has had 2 1/2 yrs experience in a medical field and is currently studying Medical Imaging. Does this make me an expert? Not really, but it means that when I see a "dragon" I see it as a creature of flesh and blood, a creature that despite its toughness CAN still suffer from the same effects a normal human does when they take a beating. Yes the beating HAS to be delivered in MDC, but the initial effects are still the same, broken bones, torn tissue and potentially damaged or destroyed organs. Even tho' a dragon's brain is effectively MDC it's LESS MDC than his skull, so if his brain is bouncing off his skull repeatedly then he suffers a concussion. If he falls from extreme heights his organs(including his skin) attempt to absorb a spread the damage out, but those organs STILL have LESS MDC than his bones so they take damage too. These organs still process blood, thus if that dragon has taken even 25% of his MDC then he has a bleeding hole in him. Yes he will heal IN TIME, but if that damage accumulates then he's trying to heal MORE damage ontop of the old damage. By your standards the dragon shouldn't even bleed from a Uranium round, or a slash from a magical sword. By my standards the dragon is still incredibly tough, but now he has to THINK about wether or not to attack the GB, 'casue as that GB pilot one thing I might do is jump on his back and drive my pylons into his spine (they can punch thru megacrete, they can punch thru a dragons skin) then dump fire into him from point blank range until he's dead.
You don't agree with my "suspension of disbelief", that's fine. But it is MY suspension of disbelief. The pointof this post was to discuss everyones "break limit", what can't you accept in the game? Not who's house rules can't you accept.

[Nightmask]

So it's unbalanced compared to all the other unbalancing things in Rifts, like large scale weapons doing the equivalent of hand held weapons or everyoneleses cries of "munchkin" everytime the CS(or other tech group) gets a tech upgrade? Or how about the Lenwen special a T-Archer w/over 1,700 MD? As GM it is my discretion what rules to apply, I choose to apply a standard that makes sense to me from my perspective as one has has had 2 1/2 yrs experience in a medical field and is currently studying Medical Imaging. Does this make me an expert? Not really, but it means that when I see a "dragon" I see it as a creature of flesh and blood, a creature that despite its toughness CAN still suffer from the same effects a normal human does when they take a beating. Yes the beating HAS to be delivered in MDC, but the initial effects are still the same, broken bones, torn tissue and potentially damaged or destroyed organs. Even tho' a dragon's brain is effectively MDC it's LESS MDC than his skull, so if his brain is bouncing off his skull repeatedly then he suffers a concussion. If he falls from extreme heights his organs(including his skin) attempt to absorb a spread the damage out, but those organs STILL have LESS MDC than his bones so they take damage too. These organs still process blood, thus if that dragon has taken even 25% of his MDC then he has a bleeding hole in him. Yes he will heal IN TIME, but if that damage accumulates then he's trying to heal MORE damage ontop of the old damage. By your standards the dragon shouldn't even bleed from a Uranium round, or a slash from a magical sword. By my standards the dragon is still incredibly tough, but now he has to THINK about wether or not to attack the GB, 'casue as that GB pilot one thing I might do is jump on his back and drive my pylons into his spine (they can punch thru megacrete, they can punch thru a dragons skin) then dump fire into him from point blank range until he's dead.
You don't agree with my "suspension of disbelief", that's fine. But it is MY suspension of disbelief. The pointof this post was to discuss everyones "break limit", what can't you accept in the game? Not who's house rules can't you accept.

Of which RL medical has zero application to things, what with there being zero ability to do medical care on such creatures. Creatures that generally have no concept of medicine mind you because their bodies are so extraordinarily different than humans that they recover from ANYTHING that doesn't outright kill them and often within hours or days. In regards to the U-rounds, no the dragon doesn't bleed from them. That's implicit in the introductory material regarding the dragon. While he can't recover the damage from the U-rounds while they're in his flesh and they hurt it in ways it never has been before nothing anywhere supports the contention that he's going to bleed to death or that creatures like dragons are subject to the SDC rules on bleeding. The magic sword meanwhile is doing conventional damage that's going to start healing practically as soon as the sword's out of the dragon's flesh. I can't see why you think RL has anything to do with something that doesn't exist or should be applicable to something that's canonically written as being capable of surviving the kinds of things that they can. Seriously, they don't have organs that work like yours or mine do, they have organs that won't even notice you driving your car into them at 70MPH and if something does cross the threshold of what they can ignore will begin to immediately regenerate to the point of putting stuff back where it belongs which is completely impossible for normal creatures to do. They aren't even in the same continent when it comes to what they can do and take compared to mortal creatures.

[keir451]

So it's unbalanced compared to all the other unbalancing things in Rifts, like large scale weapons doing the equivalent of hand held weapons or everyoneleses cries of "munchkin" everytime the CS(or other tech group) gets a tech upgrade? Or how about the Lenwen special a T-Archer w/over 1,700 MD? As GM it is my discretion what rules to apply, I choose to apply a standard that makes sense to me from my perspective as one has has had 2 1/2 yrs experience in a medical field and is currently studying Medical Imaging. Does this make me an expert? Not really, but it means that when I see a "dragon" I see it as a creature of flesh and blood, a creature that despite its toughness CAN still suffer from the same effects a normal human does when they take a beating. Yes the beating HAS to be delivered in MDC, but the initial effects are still the same, broken bones, torn tissue and potentially damaged or destroyed organs. Even tho' a dragon's brain is effectively MDC it's LESS MDC than his skull, so if his brain is bouncing off his skull repeatedly then he suffers a concussion. If he falls from extreme heights his organs(including his skin) attempt to absorb a spread the damage out, but those organs STILL have LESS MDC than his bones so they take damage too. These organs still process blood, thus if that dragon has taken even 25% of his MDC then he has a bleeding hole in him. Yes he will heal IN TIME, but if that damage accumulates then he's trying to heal MORE damage ontop of the old damage. By your standards the dragon shouldn't even bleed from a Uranium round, or a slash from a magical sword. By my standards the dragon is still incredibly tough, but now he has to THINK about wether or not to attack the GB, 'casue as that GB pilot one thing I might do is jump on his back and drive my pylons into his spine (they can punch thru megacrete, they can punch thru a dragons skin) then dump fire into him from point blank range until he's dead.
You don't agree with my "suspension of disbelief", that's fine. But it is MY suspension of disbelief. The pointof this post was to discuss everyones "break limit", what can't you accept in the game? Not who's house rules can't you accept.

Of which RL medical has zero application to things, what with there being zero ability to do medical care on such creatures. Creatures that generally have no concept of medicine mind you because their bodies are so extraordinarily different than humans that they recover from ANYTHING that doesn't outright kill them and often within hours or days. In regards to the U-rounds, no the dragon doesn't bleed from them. That's implicit in the introductory material regarding the dragon. While he can't recover the damage from the U-rounds while they're in his flesh and they hurt it in ways it never has been before nothing anywhere supports the contention that he's going to bleed to death or that creatures like dragons are subject to the SDC rules on bleeding. The magic sword meanwhile is doing conventional damage that's going to start healing practically as soon as the sword's out of the dragon's flesh. I can't see why you think RL has anything to do with something that doesn't exist or should be applicable to something that's canonically written as being capable of surviving the kinds of things that they can. Seriously, they don't have organs that work like yours or mine do, they have organs that won't even notice you driving your car into them at 70MPH and if something does cross the threshold of what they can ignore will begin to immediately regenerate to the point of putting stuff back where it belongs which is completely impossible for normal creatures to do. They aren't even in the same continent when it comes to what they can do and take compared to mortal creatures.

U-rounds prevent SN creature from healing which means they're still bleeding. They're subject to the general rules of bleeding and blood loss, it doesn't matter if it's MDC or SDC, blood loss is blood loss. How do YOU know that a dragons organs don't work like ours do?There's no specific material on dragon organs EXCEPT that mages use them. So I'm forced to apply what I know. I never said they couldn't recover, I said that during the time they are taking damage they're bleeding. I said if their MDC brain is bouncing against their MDC skull they're gonna get concussed, unless they die they will recover. While dragons may take minor damage from a car going 70 mph. they sure as hell take damage from GB flechettes going Mach 5. Just because dragons don't practice their own form of medicine does not mean medical and scientific systems have no effect on them. You just need to use vibro or laser or plasma scalpels, how else do you think people salvage a dragons organs for sale?
This is the point YOU are missing; You choose not to apply RL concepts to YOUR game I get that, I however DO apply RL concepts to MY game. End of discussion.

On another note; I'm still interested in hearing from everyone else what things are game breakers for you. What concepts in Rifts don't work for you? What aspects of the "game reality" can't you accept? What things do GM's or players do that make the game "unbelievable" for you? I mean is a 17 headed, pink and purple dragon named Gornax acceptable fro your game? Or is the very concept a "What the F***?".

[Nightmask]

The MDC creature while he can't undo the bullet wound from the U-round has no problems at all regenerating any blood loss one might consider going on from said wound. Therefor said wound cannot inflict further MD to the creature because while the wound itself remains the creature itself will put back any lost blood like it always does, by magically generating it like it does when it spontaneously creates the mass used to put back a missing arm or eye. Much like a half-full tank with a leak will always remain half-full if as much water is coming in is going out, which is the case with the MDC creature.

I personally have no problems accepting the premises for Rifts (or the rest of the Palladium line for that matter), I don't have to worry about something in the books seeming too outrageous because I accept the premise of the creatures and technology as posited. I only run into problems when the GM makes rulings or has house rules that end up being simply too outrageous for me to accept, as can be inferred one being the idea that my MDC Dragon Hatchling would actually be killed by falling off a cliff because he's somehow a hundred times more susceptible to injury rather than less for being an MDC creature.

[Killer Cyborg]

What the dragon is really taking damage from is not the fall or the material it is striking but from its own inertia. Since the dragon is MDC he takes MDC.

Throw a rag doll off a cliff.
It won't get hurt, because the material it is made of is stronger than the force of the fall.

Same with MDC beings, for the most part.

[Nightmask]

What the dragon is really taking damage from is not the fall or the material it is striking but from its own inertia. Since the dragon is MDC he takes MDC.

Throw a rag doll off a cliff.
It won't get hurt, because the material it is made of is stronger than the force of the fall.

Same with MDC beings, for the most part.

Makes more sense than 'the tougher you are the more damage you take' position being touted. Then again 'the fall isn't hurting you or the rock you hit it's inertia'. Can't see how that makes any sense: two creatures same mass, same inertia, same kinetic energy, same material impacted, same body positioning, SDC creature takes a hundredth the damage the MDC creature takes just because its SDC and somehow is BETTER at taking such a fall. That's about as far from common sense and RL logic as it gets.

[The Beast]

however, as of RUE, MDC objects for some reason take 1D6 M.D. for the same fall. thus while a regular human is only taking between 2 and 10 m.d., a seatitan, which is otherwise identical in physical form and mass, is taking 188D6 M.D., or between 188 and 1128 M.D. ... 100x more damage just because they're 100x tougher...

That's the one thing I hate, when damages get listed as either doing one type or the other, depending on who's being damaged. (Not talking about magical attacks here, just normal every-day type damage.) It should always do one or the other, regardless of who's taking the damage.

[dark brandon]

The same material is not being impacted because there is more impact going on than just with the ground...

Question: If I drop a cannonball made pf mdc material from such a height that it reaches terminal velocity and it strikes an mdc creature on the ground, does the mdc creature take mdc damage from the mdc weapon?

Or, in other words, if you use an mdc material weapon and swing it really hard, does it do mdc damage?

AFAIK, the ground is considered SDC material, so I don't think this example is viable.

[dark brandon]

The same material is not being impacted because there is more impact going on than just with the ground...

Question: If I drop a cannonball made pf mdc material from such a height that it reaches terminal velocity and it strikes an mdc creature on the ground, does the mdc creature take mdc damage from the mdc weapon?

Or, in other words, if you use an mdc material weapon and swing it really hard, does it do mdc damage?

AFAIK, the ground is considered SDC material, so I don't think this example is viable.

I think a good thought experiment may be to use something of equal mass. Like a glass vs. a cup made of metal (same dimensions, just made of different materials). You don't have to reach terminal velocity to know the glass has to drop a shorter distance before it's going to break. Dropped at 6 ft. generally speaking the glass will break and the cup will be fine.

If the terminal velocity of an MDC cup is not great enough to overcome it's MDC, it will land just fine. So if the glass had 1 SDC, the cup had 5 SDC, and the MDC item has 100 SDC (or 1 md), that MDC cup will have to drop far enough for it to do 100 SDC. Now, for simplicity sake, lets say the terminal velocity of the MDC cup is 120 MPH (may be more, may be less, I don't know). Using the collision rules (they do more damage, so why not), the most that cup can take is 12D8. Even at max damage (96) it's still not enough to break/damage it, but the cup may be in bad shape, or if you are following the logic of RIFTS, takes no damage. (IE: shooting a pistol at a tank all day, you'll never do more than a scratch is one of the examples it gives, or close to it).

Another way to see it is stunt men who jump off of buildings and land on giant air-bags. To an MDC creature, the ground is a soft material that gives easy, and may very well be akin to this example. So no matter how far they fall, they won't take any damage because the ground is soft.

Another thought:

I was curious and did a quick google search for what the terminal velocity of a 1 ton rock was (when launched from orbit). A random post by someone in some boards, said 1 ton is equiviliant to 20 kilotons of TNT. I'll take it at face value cause, why not? So, in CS navy, their war-heads are 100 kilo tons and do 2d4x100 MD damage. So the damage of 1 ton would be 2d4x20 MD. So, a 30 ton great horned dragon would be 600 kilotons, or 2d4x600 damage. Hum...average damage 2,400 MDC. Yeah, it would hurt him, but an adult dragon wouldn't be killed.

A sea-titan weighs 200lbs. that would be 1/10 of 2d4x20 Md...so maybe 2d4x2, or 4d4 md. That won't hurt them much either.

That's assuming both of them fell like rocks. because the TV of a human/sea titan would be 120 MPH, or 12D8 SDC (I'd simplify it and say 1 MD). So, i'd just use the above if they fell from orbit. Otherwise, I'd stick with if they fell from a high building, or even a plane, the stunt guy.

[keir451]

"Do as thou will" seems to be the heart of Rifts, a GM's discretion trumps all.
I originally asked a fairly basic question "What, in Rifts, do you find unbelievable?" Where do you draw the line to make the game believable for you. I provided my answer. I accept that not everyone is going to agree with me. Having said that I would like, once again, to bring this post back on topic. Let us STOP rehashing what has already become an old and tired argument.

I want to know what other things in Rifts do you find unbelievable, what doesn't work for you? And please leave the argument about the dragon vs physics out of it.
Example: If you cannot accept a 17 headed dragon w/ pink & purple polka dots because it's too much, or if you can just because it's funny and a bit screwy then by all means say so.

[jaymz]

I redo a lot of the ranges and damages for weapons. Beyond that I leave it pretty wide open in the reality department.

[Killer Cyborg]

Question: If I drop a cannonball made pf mdc material from such a height that it reaches terminal velocity and it strikes an mdc creature on the ground, does the mdc creature take mdc damage from the mdc weapon?

The rules don't address that, but logically both the cannonball and whatever it hit would take damage based on the cannonball's fall.

Or, in other words, if you use an mdc material weapon and swing it really hard, does it do mdc damage?

Sure.
But you have to swing hit hard enough to inflict that kind of damage, and the fact that it's mega-damage isn't necessarily important.
If you drop an SDC cannonball onto a target from the same height, the effects would be much the same (if not exactly the same).

Or, if an sdc ram is placed on the end of a truck and it hits an sdc person while going 100 mph, what type and how much damage is done?

10d8 SDC damage.
Because of the ram prow, the vehicle itself would take no damage.

If an mdc ram is placed on the end of a truck and it hits an mdc creature (or sdc for that matter) while going 100 mph, what type of damage is done?

10d8 SDC damage.
Because of the ram prow, the vehicle itself would take no damage.

[dark brandon]

"Do as thou will" seems to be the heart of Rifts, a GM's discretion trumps all.
I originally asked a fairly basic question "What, in Rifts, do you find unbelievable?" Where do you draw the line to make the game believable for you. I provided my answer. I accept that not everyone is going to agree with me. Having said that I would like, once again, to bring this post back on topic. Let us STOP rehashing what has already become an old and tired argument.

I want to know what other things in Rifts do you find unbelievable, what doesn't work for you? And please leave the argument about the dragon vs physics out of it.
Example: If you cannot accept a 17 headed dragon w/ pink & purple polka dots because it's too much, or if you can just because it's funny and a bit screwy then by all means say so.

part of the fun of such a discussion is to revisit why you/anyone finds something unbelievable, and maybe look at something a different way, or to reaffirm what makes you not believe. Honestly, if the idea is to just lay a statement and leave, there really isn't much point in doing it. That may mean the topic will deviate, but in reality it's still the same topic.

The thing about the imagination vs. reality is that you can't ignore reality. With imagination it can be changed and recolored, unless your so ingrained in your concepts that there is no room for negotiation, at which point I don't think there is (once again) a reason to discuss anything. Because it's not really a discussion, just a statement.

For example, until my last post, any creature falling from orbit (which may never happen in my game, but why not have it) which was MDC would simply take no damage. As much as you believe they would die, I believed they would shrug it off. Now, after really thinking about it, and considering both sides of the argument, I now believe otherwise, which has changed my suspension of disbelief just slightly. It's never been enough not to play, but it has taken an interesting turn.

[keir451]

Thank you for reminding me of that dark brandon, I'd gotten a little too caught up in the discussion. I have to admit I've also altered my stance slightly.

[dark brandon]

With an sdc creature, the internal sdc organs all impact with each other, the sdc body and the sdc ground. But, with an mdc creature, the mdc organs impact with with each other, with the mdc exterior, and the sdc ground

So, siding with the interpretation that velocity is the determiining factor rather than impacted material (note that I haven't seen the rules to determine if that is verbatim interpretation or merely a personal interpretation as I don't know how that would affect suspension of disbelief...) will give one the same damage for sdc creatures falling as mdc creatures falling. But, if one can (find it easier to) believe that the material being impacted affects the damage, then it is a different (and perhaps lesser) suspension of disbelief for the mdc creature to take more damage.

I haven't seen a rule, but like I said, depending on how soft the ground is to an MDC creature, I see a plausible reason to view it like stunt men who jump off buildings onto soft inflatable material in that they would take no damage from the fall (Much like a stunt man isn't killed when he jumps off a building onto those air thingies).

[keir451]

The same material is not being impacted because there is more impact going on than just with the ground...

Question: If I drop a cannonball made pf mdc material from such a height that it reaches terminal velocity and it strikes an mdc creature on the ground, does the mdc creature take mdc damage from the mdc weapon?

Or, in other words, if you use an mdc material weapon and swing it really hard, does it do mdc damage?

AFAIK, the ground is considered SDC material, so I don't think this example is viable.

Although my point was addressed (indirectly) by another poster, my point about different materials being impacted was referring to what goes on internally with a collision.

With an sdc creature, the internal sdc organs all impact with each other, the sdc body and the sdc ground. But, with an mdc creature, the mdc organs impact with with each other, with the mdc exterior, and the sdc ground.
So, siding with the interpretation that velocity is the determiining factor rather than impacted material (note that I haven't seen the rules to determine if that is verbatim interpretation or merely a personal interpretation as I don't know how that would affect suspension of disbelief...) will give one the same damage for sdc creatures falling as mdc creatures falling. But, if one can (find it easier to) believe that the material being impacted affects the damage, then it is a different (and perhaps lesser) suspension of disbelief for the mdc creature to take more damage.

I see the ground as both SDC and MDC. In dealing with small quantities, like digging a hole, or swimming, or breaking a rock w/ hammer we deal SDC damage, but to an object falling on those materials they can be as tough as MDC. In my mind a being impacting the ground compresses the group upon impact making it more solid and unyielding, much like if you hit a body of water the wrong way the water feels nearly solid despite its peremeability, so the organs have even less room to shift to be able to absorb the imapct due to the increased solidity & rigidity of the material being impacted upon.

[Nightmask]

The same material is not being impacted because there is more impact going on than just with the ground...

Question: If I drop a cannonball made pf mdc material from such a height that it reaches terminal velocity and it strikes an mdc creature on the ground, does the mdc creature take mdc damage from the mdc weapon?

Or, in other words, if you use an mdc material weapon and swing it really hard, does it do mdc damage?

AFAIK, the ground is considered SDC material, so I don't think this example is viable.

Although my point was addressed (indirectly) by another poster, my point about different materials being impacted was referring to what goes on internally with a collision.

With an sdc creature, the internal sdc organs all impact with each other, the sdc body and the sdc ground. But, with an mdc creature, the mdc organs impact with with each other, with the mdc exterior, and the sdc ground.
So, siding with the interpretation that velocity is the determiining factor rather than impacted material (note that I haven't seen the rules to determine if that is verbatim interpretation or merely a personal interpretation as I don't know how that would affect suspension of disbelief...) will give one the same damage for sdc creatures falling as mdc creatures falling. But, if one can (find it easier to) believe that the material being impacted affects the damage, then it is a different (and perhaps lesser) suspension of disbelief for the mdc creature to take more damage.

I see the ground as both SDC and MDC. In dealing with small quantities, like digging a hole, or swimming, or breaking a rock w/ hammer we deal SDC damage, but to an object falling on those materials they can be as tough as MDC. In my mind a being impacting the ground compresses the group upon impact making it more solid and unyielding, much like if you hit a body of water the wrong way the water feels nearly solid despite its peremeability, so the organs have even less room to shift to be able to absorb the imapct due to the increased solidity & rigidity of the material being impacted upon.

Depends on the ground, other types of ground actually liquefies under the energy of the impact and absorbs more energy. The ground isn't like water though, it can indeed be compressed and isn't an MDC material. A large area of ground has MDC equivalent but it's still just SDC material and what's hitting it is not going to magically turn it into MDC material because they're MDC. So there's no reason to try and claim that the ground is somehow magically more durable and damaging because you're more durable when it's a clearly defined material with set properties that aren't going to change just because 200 LB SDC guy crashes into it rather than 200 LB MDC guy. Those MDC materials in the MDC being aren't going to see any more kinetic energy transmitted through them than the SDC guy and the tissues are a hundred times more resilient and capable of soaking up that damage you aren't going to be more susceptible to harm because you've got MDC bones (if anything the Unbreakable Bones minor power lists reduced damage from such attacks, and the MDC creature has their entire body like that, they're in the end like the Invulnerable super-human and just don't notice that kind of damage).

[keir451]

The SDC to MDC conversion is still the same the fact remains that despite your protests this is what I use when running my games.
You have your standards and I have mine, we are both correct as far as what we do in our games.

[Nightmask]

The SDC to MDC conversion is still the same the fact remains that despite your protests this is what I use when running my games.
You have your standards and I have mine, we are both correct as far as what we do in our games.

Well it still violates common sense and logic, a slap of concrete is still SDC whether you hit it with an SDC hammer or an MDC sledgehammer so there's no way the MDC hammer should take MDC damage because it's MDC it shouldn't take any damage at all and same holds for bodies. Sadly not a reasonable conclusion to have such things doing MD to MD creatures when supposedly trying to keep things consistent and rational.

[keir451]

The SDC to MDC conversion is still the same the fact remains that despite your protests this is what I use when running my games.
You have your standards and I have mine, we are both correct as far as what we do in our games.

Well it still violates common sense and logic, a slap of concrete is still SDC whether you hit it with an SDC hammer or an MDC sledgehammer so there's no way the MDC hammer should take MDC damage because it's MDC it shouldn't take any damage at all and same holds for bodies. Sadly not a reasonable conclusion to have such things doing MD to MD creatures when supposedly trying to keep things consistent and rational.

That is certainly your opinion, Sir. Yet if an MDC hammer does not take damage from impacting MDC materials, then by the same token MDC materials don't take damage from being struck by an MDC hammer, yet the game rules say other wise. As a matter of fact if a tool is used often enough it will eventually wear down, MDC materials simply take longer. The game rules state, effectively, that if you can inflict MD on any MD structure/being with an MD item/weapon then MD damage is dealt AND received. Even a Robot leg used as a deadfall trap inflicts MDC. I state that a Dragon is a Biological organism that fundamentally operates much the same as any other biological organism. It lives, it eats, breathes, fights, flees, breeds, etc. Therefore it must have equivalents to our internal systems and this is borne out in different descriptions throughout the books. Thus I see no problem at all in saying that if a dragon is injured severely enough it can bleed profusely, and if enough of, or certain ones of its internal organs are damaged/destroyed it can be concussed or outright killed. I do not deny the dragons incredible healing powers that let it survive MOST (but not all) situations that will kill a normal human, but I (and the books) place a limit on that.
My final word, to you, on this is; My game, My rules, Your game, Your rules.

[Colt47]

You know, this might go against a sentence or two in the RUE, but I've always thought of MDC as more of a resistance to damage from attacks, rather than resistance to damage from everything.

[Nightmask]

You know, this might go against a sentence or two in the RUE, but I've always thought of MDC as more of a resistance to damage from attacks, rather than resistance to damage from everything.

And how does one claim that falling off a cliff and hitting the ground is somehow different than being shot or hit? MDC is or should be fairly simple, a representation of how creatures and things with it are orders of magnitude more capable of taking damage and any damage below a particularly threshold is meaningless to them. It just can't hurt. Just as a guy with a sub-machinegun is never going to shoot through a bank vault's steel door because he just can't cross that threshold so too the MDC being is going to just not take notice of SDC damage. Even if the SDC damage is high enough to be over that threshold it's going to need so much to do more than scratch the target it really won't matter in the end. So you fall off a cliff onto jagged rocks the rocks do SDC damage and most likely you die; the MDC creature falls and the ROCKS shatter and break against his skin maybe bruising him for a point of MD but in the end there's no reason he's going to come even close to dying like some SDC creature would.