Nighbane Sorcerers; How Common in YOUR Game?

[GaredBattlespike]

Hi there!
I just got started on an AWESOME 1-on-1 Game as a N-B Sorcerer, and was wondering how common/rare N-B Spellcasters were in other people's games.
I also have ANOTHER QUESTION:
Can a regular Nighbane who hasd access to a Sorcerer/N-B Sorcerer, learn Magic and change to N-B Sorcerer?
My PC has a regular N-B girlfriend that he wants to have taught Magic by his own Master(still alive after D-Day so far).
Thank you, GaredBattlespike

[Shark_Force]

to your first question: they should be pretty rare. in theory, most of them should technically be from before dark day, because i doubt there are as many who can afford to spend the years in training to become a sorcerer (learning the basics of fighting and whatnot is a lot quicker). and up until dark day, nightbane were really quite rare. that said, it could still happen, but it's a rare 'race' (relatively speaking) taking a rare OCC (sorcerer), so they should be pretty rare. that said, they're probably proportionally less rare than human sorcerers, because a much higher percentage of nightbane realise that magic is real. that being said, there's a difference between something being rare, and not being likely to encounter it... gold or diamonds are considered to be fairly rare, for example, but you can walk down to many stores and they just have them there. very few people have doctorates in physics, but odds are good that if you're one of those people you know quite a few others, and so forth.

as to your second question, yes. that's how the nightbane sorcerer became a nightbane sorcerer in the first place, actually. nightbane mystic, the answer would be no (since mystics just sorta happen; not saying it couldn't happen, but it couldn't be *made* to happen), but sorcerer is a definite yes. the exact mechanics for class changes can be found in a palladium fantasy book, adventure on high seas or something like that (if necessary... if they hadn't really taken the full nightbane OCC, ie haven't gotten all their talents, haven't learned all their skills, etc, i would consider it to be their first class anyways).

alternately, i personally recommend you make up your own rules for changing classes, for 2 reasons:

1) you probably don't own the adventures on the high seas book, probably don't particularly want to own it, and probably won't use anything other than a small section which is likely 1/4 of a page or less in length.

2) your rules are free, and can be guaranteed to work the way you think they should work. for example, you might think to yourself "why would i have to abandon the old class, that's just stupid" (and in my opinion if you think that, you would be right). you might think to yourself "i can't think of any reason why a given person couldn't advance two sets of class abilities at the same time" (and again, in my opinion if you think that you would be right). you are especially likely to think "why would i have to achieve level 3 in the class i don't want to be before i can stop being that class" (and you would be especially right in my opinion if you think that).

(note: i have not read the adventures on the high seas book. but i *have* read in other palladium books where it had rules for changing class such as being forced to change to 'borg OCC in rifts, and i suspect they are similar. obviously, it's up to you how to handle it)

[Rallan]

Hi there!
I just got started on an AWESOME 1-on-1 Game as a N-B Sorcerer, and was wondering how common/rare N-B Spellcasters were in other people's games.

Depends how many people play them. Personally I'm not much of a fan though, because between their phenomenal stats and bonuses, their natural abilities, and the range of Talents they can choose from, Nightbane are already more than capable of being Swiss Army Knife characters who can do a zillion and one things. Throwing spells into the mix is just overkill.

I also have ANOTHER QUESTION:
Can a regular Nighbane who hasd access to a Sorcerer/N-B Sorcerer, learn Magic and change to N-B Sorcerer?
My PC has a regular N-B girlfriend that he wants to have taught Magic by his own Master(still alive after D-Day so far).
Thank you, GaredBattlespike

Nightbane has no rules for changing OCCs (and the rules in other Palladium games like Rifts are fairly wonky) so you'd have to wing it. Personally though I'd say it can't be done without years and years of dedicated study. There aren't any hard and fast rules, but the flavour text in sourcebook 3 (Through The Glass Darkly) makes it pretty clear that sorcerers have put years of their life into mastering the basic principles of magic before they ever became a first level character, much like how a brand new doctor or engineer or lawyer is the end result of years and years of full-time education. Nightbane have the advantage of naturally having oodles of PPE and being able to tap into it to fuel their powers, but they're still gonna need a few years to get their head around magic.

[The Dark Elf]

I was going to add my fill but I kinda agree with Rallan (sorry for doing a /agree post).

They are rare as they were sorcerers before D Day usually.

It would take YEARS and detract from a game. It's hard to concentrate when there's an invasion going on.

[Soldier of Od]

I agree with Rallan and the Dark Elf that realistically, it would take years to learn the art of sorcery.

However, I am all for squeezing reality in order to make for a good game or character concept. So if you really want to learn magic and put in the appropriate amount of time role playing the learning process (perhaps effectively sitting out some potentially interesting encounters as your nightbane sits at home with his mentor learning to sense ley lines while your mates go hound-hunting in the nightlands), then I would probably allow it. just fudge the timing - you mentor could be 'amazed' at how quickly you have picked up the art of magic; you must be a natural!

Without actually changing your O.C.C./R.C.C., you could perhaps be granted a few of the abilities and or knowledge of the sorcerer as you advance normally, so, maybe after a while your GM may say that you have learnt enough to have the equivalent of the 'understand the principles of magic' skill at level one. Later in your studies, you may get to a point where you can 'sense and use ley lines' etc. If desired, this could be scheduled - maybe at each level that you advance in your normal Nighbane R.C.C., so you might have to go up quite a few levels before you can finally learn your first spell. If you were already a high level nightbane then the gaps between levels would be wider and this would take even longer (reflecting the 'set in you ways' or 'can't teach an old dog new tricks' aspect of this new learning). Or your GM might let you use new skill selections as you advance to learn magic 'skills' such as understanding the priciples of magic, the sorcerous proficiencies or even sensing/using ley lines.

Hope this helps.

[TechnoGothic]

Should even take a NIGHTABNE even longer due to their own problem.
Nightbane are geared towards TALENTS not spells. Learning Spells means less Talents and Less Spells. So its Harder for them to learn Sorcerer rather than just go with the flow with their normal RCC.

[Lord Z]

I have only run a single Nightbane campaign. It lasted about half a year. One of the player characters was a NB Sorceror, so I allowed her to be unique among the characters she encountered. Another PC who rarely showed was a NB who had the abilities of the Mystic China arcanist, so that could be counted as a second NB Sorceror character.

[Jockitch74]

Only if the entire party are Banes, otherwise no. If there's a human mage and a bane mage, then the human becomes a one trick pony and the bane has magic, supernatural abilities and talents.

[G]

The answer is about game balance. Palladium leaves balance up to the GM, some other game systems spend a lot of time and effort to make everything perfectly balanced.

Nighbane Sorcerers are one of the most powerful combinations in the game. What you are doing is combining an OCC & RCC. Not counting humans, the other chars can't do that - so why should you let a NB? This char will overshadow all the other PCs in the game. Is that what you want? With only one PC, it doesn't unbalance anything, as its easy for the GM to adjust the difficulty of the enemies.

"CJ's original concepts are heroes who have the power to save the world only a) they have to turn into monsters to use their powers, and b) they don't know how to use those powers (yet) to save the world!"

I'll add its supposed to be a Heroes and Horror game. If the PC does not overpower the other PCs; its harder to create a horror armosphere when a single PC can take out an army of powerful monsters.

[Shark_Force]

to be fair, nightbane sorcerer is only likely to overshadow everyone else if you have easy access to spells. the default for the setting is that finding spell instructions is not too hard, but finding spell instructions for a heal spell that won't default to "amputate the limb" as the solution for every problem is hard to do, and you don't know what the spell formula does until you cast it. and that's *without* the nightlords deliberately seeding bad information.

generally speaking, the only reliable way to get access to new spells is to either gain a level, or have a mentor that you trust a great deal. researching your own spells is theoretically possible, but time-consuming and still not risk-free, and who has that much time anyways?

now, that being said, just because that's the setting that was assumed when the rules were written, that doesn't mean that's what the setting will be like in the hands of the local GM. but it *is* something to consider... you don't just show up at the local Magic Mart and buy a working formula for call lightning or anything, there is no magic mart. and if you do manage to find a formula you don't know what spell it is or even if it's actually a working formula at all until you cast it.

and anyways, if you look at all the possible talents a nightbane can take, they're almost like a spellcaster anyways, unless you *really* grant easy access to tons of new spells. the major areas of spellcasting are covered by talents, too... mind control, "nukes", teleport, protection, gathering information, "crowd control", buffing, debuffing... really, each individual nightbane is almost like a spellcaster in their own way already.

[Nekira Sudacne]

to be fair, nightbane sorcerer is only likely to overshadow everyone else if you have easy access to spells. the default for the setting is that finding spell instructions is not too hard, but finding spell instructions for a heal spell that won't default to "amputate the limb" as the solution for every problem is hard to do, and you don't know what the spell formula does until you cast it. and that's *without* the nightlords deliberately seeding bad information.

generally speaking, the only reliable way to get access to new spells is to either gain a level, or have a mentor that you trust a great deal. researching your own spells is theoretically possible, but time-consuming and still not risk-free, and who has that much time anyways?

now, that being said, just because that's the setting that was assumed when the rules were written, that doesn't mean that's what the setting will be like in the hands of the local GM. but it *is* something to consider... you don't just show up at the local Magic Mart and buy a working formula for call lightning or anything, there is no magic mart. and if you do manage to find a formula you don't know what spell it is or even if it's actually a working formula at all until you cast it.

And all that gets even more fun if you use through the glass darkly material, when you realize that rather or not a formula works depends more on you than it does on the formula, and even then there's no garentee your doing it right, with a distinct possibility that your not even casting the same spell that the person who wrote it down said you would. This is of course all assuming that you really truely believe those splotch-marked scribbles you found really is a spell, otherwise it's garenteed to fail no matter what you do.

[The Dark Elf]

The fact that they can use their powers in facade is very useful to me as a player regardless of power level. Means you're useful in all areas and I like the variety of options spells have in any given situation. Love NB sorcerers.

[G]

If I look hard enough, in enough books, I can find other book legal RCC/OCC Combinations... Athanatos from WB4 get both a RCC & OCC. Its mix n math 5 RCCs with 10 OCCs.

To answer the question, yes I think they can be taught magic, if you have years to do so. I'm not sure where in the books it would list the actual amount of time required.

[Nekira Sudacne]

in the games i played NBs with spells have been fairly wimpy. lowlevel spells arent so hot and it takes ages to level up.

Sounds more like poor spell choices to me. But also they probablly fell into the palladium wizards trap of using magic for everything when that's not hte best idea. Magic is a tool with specific applications. You use your regular talents and skills for most things. Don't use magic UNLESS it's the situation the spell was designed for.

[Sir_Spirit]

Hmm,,I"d propbalby let her learn them but it would be two cahrcter levels before you she learned any.
I'd also inhibit any new skills/talents form being picked up while learning in this fashion(to represent that she is focusing on learning magic she doesn't have the time or energy to develope spare skills/talents....).
Any new skills she wants to pick up after that would be limited to the NB sorcerer skill set. same with "free" talents.

[TechnoGothic]

Nightbane Mystics have it hard though.
Very limited in learning both Talents and Spells.
Why? Because the dont force things, they wait for the time when they learn naturally. IE, Level up to the required Level.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Nightbane Mystics have it hard though.
Very limited in learning both Talents and Spells.
Why? Because the dont force things, they wait for the time when they learn naturally. IE, Level up to the required Level.

Actually no: it says that they generally prefer it, but does go on to state they CAN still learn 2 a level by forcing it if you want.

[TechnoGothic]

yeah but Forcing is not playing the way Mystics do things.

To me, thats like playing a Principled (good) character, then you decide to Rape a Baby and kill his mother. Then expect to stay (good). Just does not fit the Alignment or actions very well.

If your going to play a NB-Mystic, play it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

yeah but Forcing is not playing the way Mystics do things.

To me, thats like playing a Principled (good) character, then you decide to Rape a Baby and kill his mother. Then expect to stay (good). Just does not fit the Alignment or actions very well.

If your going to play a NB-Mystic, play it.

I agree in general. However if your mystic is contunally up aginst situations that Shadow Slide is the perfect tool to handle--they may well decide to force things and learn shadow slide. They are mystics, yes, but they're also people. People sometimes break their own philosophies due to the need of the moment. If you simply play all your mystics as perfect astetics who never break any personal rules and always follow the one true way, that's no more realistic a character.

[TechnoGothic]

You can also always have a Bane who thinks they are a Sorceror. Spells can be converted into Talents really easy. I think the ruleing is 1/2 the PPE cost of the spell to learn it and 1/2 PPE to activate.
Nightbane instictualy are geared towards talents so this scenario is very likly.

Most NB should see their Talents as one of Two things...

Super Abilities powered by their own energies
or
Magic Abilities powered by their own energies

Both are Right, yet are Wrong. And only those with enough Nightbane Lore and Magic Lore should be able to tell any differences besides the Verbal Spell Casting element. Then again I have seen Players use Verbal Keywords during play to activate a talent which the character yells out. Yeah they watch anime ... LOL.

[Sir_Spirit]

At elast they arent' quoting Dragonball Z

[Sir_Spirit]

I use a rule:
1 in 100,000 may have a magic talent. So, a city like New Orleans with a population of around 400k would only have real 4 sorcerers, a city with 8 million people like New York could have 80. And a quarter of those would be Nighbane.

Yeah, but the real question is how many minor psychics who don't know they aren't really magicians are there?
Add to that any number of people who think(or actually can) do "religious magick"[Voodoo in NO, for instance, they are a magick OCC in Rifts] , and then add to that the number of outright frauds, then add to that the number being fooled into thinking they do magik cuz of said frauds.
Adn then of course ther are the Preists of the Night. And the Witches(the OCC, not wiccans) of demonic forces.

[Shark_Force]

I use a rule:
1 in 100,000 may have a magic talent. So, a city like New Orleans with a population of around 400k would only have real 4 sorcerers, a city with 8 million people like New York could have 80. And a quarter of those would be Nighbane.

i would adjust this somewhat.

amongst some people, magic would be very rare. on the other hand, in some places, it might be as common as 1-2% of the population (or more) having magic abilities. mostly these people would be those who have not had much interference with the modern world. i would have some areas in between, where magic might be more like 1/25,000 or 1/10,000 in some cases... to represent areas where there is a lot more belief in magic and where many people believe they are capable of magic. so, while you might have only 1/100,000 in general... if you were to look at, say, tribes that are in the deep amazon who haven't had much if any contact with modern technology, it could easily be as high as 2 people per tribe (1 master, 1 apprentice). if you were to compare groups that believe they practice magic, it might be somewhere in between. that is, if you have a group of people who regularly gather and perform ceremonies which they believe have magical power, you would not see 1/100,000 amongst them, but rather perhaps 1/10,000 or even 1/1,000.

so, for example, new orleans might have a lot more people who believe in magic, and therefore would have more than 4 real sorcerers (or other magic-using OCC), while someplace like new york might have a lot more people, but will have a much lower % (quite likely lower than your 1/100,000). places like china or japan would likewise might have more than average.

so while that 1/100,000 figure might be accurate (i do think it's a *bit* much), i don't think it would be a terribly useful number overall... because, being an average, it fails to account for the fact that some places will have a much denser grouping of sorcerers of assorted types, while other places will have much fewer than their population would suggest based on that number.

[Specter]

Not allowed in my Nightbane games. If someone wants to be a spell slinger they are going to be playing a human.

[Nightmask]

Hi there!
I just got started on an AWESOME 1-on-1 Game as a N-B Sorcerer, and was wondering how common/rare N-B Spellcasters were in other people's games.
I also have ANOTHER QUESTION:
Can a regular Nighbane who hasd access to a Sorcerer/N-B Sorcerer, learn Magic and change to N-B Sorcerer?
My PC has a regular N-B girlfriend that he wants to have taught Magic by his own Master(still alive after D-Day so far).
Thank you, GaredBattlespike

I seem to remember that in one of the stories in the Nightlands book I think it was it details a crew of a ship that ends up there in like the early 1900s or late 1800s. One of them (a young man) turns out to be a Nightbane and it notes that a sorcerer who'd been on the ship in secret and who revealed himself once they were in the Nightlands had begun teaching him magic. So there is precedence in the books for someone starting as a regular Nightbane and studying to become a Nightbane Sorcerer.