250 M.D.C Pteradactyls? SDC vs MDC in RT

[taalismn]

Protoculture-powered pterys?
Flimsy way to up the challenge so it's not a fifteen-minute buzzard-shoot the PCs, who will doubtlessly come packing their heavy firepower...
Of course, it's while they're watching the skies from their hunting blinds that you hit them with the giant ants from below....

[taalismn]

I guess one way to make dinos and other prehistoric animals like pterasaurs more realistic is to up their stealth and dodge abilities. Real pterasaurs were built about as sturdy as your average box kite, but were probably also virtually silent gliders and decently nimble--especially the smaller ones that were more bird-sized. Makes more sense than giving hollow-boned animals with thin-membraned wings the same MDC as a tank...

Instead of making them hard to kill, you could just make them hard to hit.

Heck, perhaps some odd quirk of their build gives them a natural stealth ability that makes it hard to spot them on radar.

I was thinking about how well they might show up on radar....But that doesn't rule out thermo-optics...

[taalismn]

That's why old-fashioned Destroids toting very big shotguns(like two 75mm howitzeres strapped together) are the best sort of thing for this sort of thing...and if anybody objects("Where did you get two 75mm howitzers to put together on a rifle mounting?"), the retort is "Where you got those flying dinos with more MDC than a squad of full-sized Zentraedi!"

Well...maybe this portends for full-sized Zentraedi who can kick Jotan butt in Rifts...

[Jefffar]

IIRC there were MDC Dinosaurs (and insects) in the previous Robotech books . . . perhaps it's a feature of the mutations the Invid have pursued.

But yeah, too much.

[panzerfaust]

I'm guessing this means that the Macross Mecha is going to get a considerable M.D.C boost?

250 M.D.C is just under half of a freakin' VF/B-9! Does this mean a Rhino is an M.D.C creature too or are these dinosaurs laden with M.D.C feathers as the current thinking about dinos suggest? A Conbat Pilot might as well strap on a saddle and head mounted laser onto his pet Pterasaur and get the same M.D.C benefits (plus a loyal friend).

I'd love to see the Mythbusters team grab a T-Rex's claw and try to rend tank armour with it..... I betcha it's myth busted.

Sometimes I really gotta wonder which crevasse these numbers come from I realise they're probably lifted straight from Rifts: Dinosaur Swamps, but Rifts is not Robotech! There's no P.P.E to supercharge creatures or anything like that. So does this mean S.D.C creatures and materials have the consistency of wafer biscuits? What is 1 S.D.C now?

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

Meh, M.D.C. Dino's don't bother me, though I'd reduce M.D.C. by half and/or mutiply by 100 for major hit points (enough to be the Equvalent of M.D.C.) and asign an A.R., for better balance.... I'd say focus on the things you LIKE about the new game and ignore (or modify) the stuff you don't like.... No game will really please EVERYONE....

[RockJock]

The MDC seems high, I agree. What is the MDC of the new Alpha and Beta for comparison? Say comparing old to new, and old to new? I always took the dinos, insects, cross breads and so on from Genesis Pits being UN natural. They were based on nature, but they were created to the Invid's standards, not ours.

[taalismn]

Because we SHOOT tigers that maul human beings...should we treat cloned dinos any differently?(btw: I thought Jurassic 2's ending was ridiculous...not that I mind that Peter Weller's character survived the first movie when he wasn't supposed to, but that he does a complete 180 from survival paranoia to let's-save-the-giant-maneater)

But I agree...one could have less-straight-out monster shoots...
Like maybe the big dumb dinos seem to be selecting targets with some planning or intelligence, and run away when confronted...slowly the picture emerges that a single individual or small group of people(villages, a little waif or band of war-orphans, Tirolian renegade, or Human Invid-bioborg experiment) has somehow tamed or has some unique ability (psionics?) to control the thunderlizards....The controllers could be genuine villians out for power, self-gain, and the sheer kick of killing with the big lizards, or are simply using them to gain an edge (in lieu of manpower or mecha)...like keeping off bullies, or getting much needed food...or they're just genuinely whacked...driven over the edge by trauma, fear, or other form of mental instability...The latter two cases could be brought around through negotiation, perhaps, or friendly overtures, and their talent(and attendant dinos) turned into assets for the resource-strapped recovery...Trying to figure out the hows in the first case could prove lethal, as the villians turn their scaley-minions on the PCs, then make their getaway...dropping clues of other 'monster pits' and even worse horrors waiting to be unleashed...

[Jefffar]

The Alpha had about a 40% increase

CVR-3 more than doubled.

[RockJock]

I don't have the new book yet, so I was kinda asking about the Beta to see how they compared. If they stay fairly balanced compared to each other I can buy that. I would switch to being insane amounts of sdc instead of mdc. The problem is SDC without AR doesn't make sense either. Do the old Dinos have a decent AR? The whole beating the armored dino to death with your fists, or baseball bat comes to mind.

[taalismn]

Agreed...Robotech should show a progression of armor values, and their application to REASONABLE objects...otherwise, you'll have bank robbers hijacking Petit Cola machines as rolling shields when they face off with the SWAT teams...

[panzerfaust]

The Alpha had about a 40% increase

CVR-3 more than doubled.

And I hope this isn't an excuse to "correct" the rest of the environment those levels. The Macross M.D.C game balance between RDF and Zentraedi forces was excellent in my opinion. So if the M.D.C is going up in Macross, I hope the ratio is more-or-less maintained when it comes to Robotechnology.

Ain't no reason to have the rest of the game world to power creep up. How much M.D.C would you apply to the New Generation, civilian PC-Powered Cola Delivery van? If you give it significantly more than the equivalent Ninjas and Superspies or other S.D.C world then I'd be truly horrified.

Robotech = M.D.C Mecha in a S.D.C world.


heh.... I've always wanted an excuse to use that emoticon

Calm down dude. Personaly I DIDN'T LIKE the Balance between Zentreadi Mecha and Human Mecha in the original Game so I incresed their M.D.C. by 1/3 to to Times 2. I felt the Zent Mecha should just have more M.D.C., though I didn't go over board with it. See here:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=80168

[panzerfaust]

Calm down dude. Personaly I DIDN'T LIKE the Balance between Zentreadi Mecha and Human Mecha in the original Game so I incresed their M.D.C. by 1/3 to to Times 2. I felt the Zent Mecha should just have more M.D.C., though I didn't go over board with it. See here:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=80168

Really? Seems like a good recipe for getting your daring VT and Destroid pilots murdered in short order considering that Zent battlepods and fighter pods outnumber the brave defenders of the SDF-1 about a kajillion to 1...

And yes, "kajillion" is a technical term...

Not realy. I've playtested those revised values and I've found they work well. Besides when I run there's ALWAYS a player who wants to play a full sized Zent (I've even run a couple o ALL Zent PC party games) and considering Full size Zent's have enough problems, due to just their size alone, I really didn't want to have to worry about the player constantly rolling up new PCs due to character death, Also I didn't want PCs to constantly go in guns blazing every time. I want them to THINK. Look at my revise M.D.C. values and you'll see that the Zent Mecha are STILL lightly armored compared to the human machines.

[taalismn]

I won't change the SDC either. It has remained somewhat the same throughout the years.

Ninjas and Superspies was my favourite S.D.C universe and it plugged in perfectly with Classic Robotech for a real Anime feel.

It's almost a prequel to the Macross Saga with mercenaries and....ninjas.... just add a Global Civil War.

It's my hope that I can do that again with Macross 2.0.

Raiders of the Lost Protoculture!!!!

[taalismn]

Agreed...it is the exclusive military nature of MDC technology that fuels the rampant black market in Robotech...

On the other hand, MDC alien lifeforms should make things more interesting for our intrepid adventurers...and, if set loose on Earth, make it that much more dangerous for the civilians, necessitating the local champions/military to intervene...but these should be isolated cases, or the beginning of an epic problem for the PCs...

[taalismn]

"Because Gary needs to be able to run like hell with the rest of us on a moment's notice once the enemy figures you're the only real threat in the whole squad..."

[panzerfaust]

<snip>I really didn't want to have to worry about the player constantly rolling up new PCs due to character death, Also I didn't want PCs to constantly go in guns blazing every time. I want them to THINK. Look at my revise M.D.C. values and you'll see that the Zent Mecha are STILL lightly armored compared to the human machines.

There should be a "Hero-Factor" applied to PC Zentraedi Mecha to increase their survivability in those cases. Just like the character's mecha is a smidge more survivable than the mook VF-1As and Destroids in the cartoon.
I admit it is an issue for game balance.

What do you do?

Give the mecha equal armour levels and give the players extra damage bonuses for expediting combat?

or

Decrease the armour levels but still give the bad guys equivalent weaponry to make the players worry a bit? This is the method that Macross 1.0 used.

But my *real* concern isn't the Mecha M.D.C levels, I'm sure they'll use some hero/enemy formula that will make game play less of a roll-fest.

The point of this thread is that all the ancillary world's Damage Capacity isn't some-how magically increased to accomodate these new RIFTS levels of M.D.C.
Case in point - Mega M.D.C Dinosaurs.

This would only make sense if M.D.C was now less of a multiple of S.D.C (say 50X or 10X). But nope, the rules say M.D.C = S.D.C x 100. As soon as you look at that figure you've got a method of measure to work with when you have S.D.C characters interacting with M.D.C mecha.

I simply don't want Robotech to be RIFTS where M.D.C permeates everyday life! I want Robotech to be what the show is. A bunch of people just getting by in the world. But when they go to work, they use gear that makes pre-SDF-1 tanks look like toys.

I don't want to see Civilian M.D.C vehicles and Macross coppers walking around in M.D.C body armour because what is a bank robber supposed to do then? The arms war increases so they need M.D.C weapons to compete, and then the walls of buildings need to be M.D.C to not dissolve in the firefight.
It's how the power creep starts and I want Palladium to nip that @#$@ in the bud from the get-go when it comes to Robotech.

By having the rule that "S.D Weapons shalt not sully thine M.D.C" Palladium should be bending over to make sure that there is a S.D.C Game World for the characters to play in, because they sure as heck will not get out of their armour if there is a hint of a chance that M.D.C weapons are in play in civvie life. RIFTS never achieved this. The original RIFTS game book tried hard, but ultimately failed miserably.

So I hope while Gideon and Sir Kev are busy toiling away at Macross and Southern Cross they are not creating RIFTS-Lite. There shouldn't be a *single* piece of M.D.C outside of military life. Lots of S.D.C?.....sure, but as soon as they use the term M.D.C their rules state that there is nothing a character can do to influence that item's structural integrity without a weapon that also has a "M.D"

I could see M.D.C. tech being used outside the military, for some applications (there's alot of civilian application, such as construction, where M.D.C. would be VERY useful), and I could see cars and trucks and Construction Vehicles and the like being very light M.D.C (around 15 to 25 M.D.C. as obvisously they AREN'T designed for warfare) and I can see the Cops having M.D.C. Items due to the fact that the really serious criminals (even in the real world) have a knack for getting their mits on Military/M.D.C. hardware (If the military has 'em the hardened criminal surely will find a way to get 'em), the key is in the commoness and amounts of M.D.C. they have. Also I have no problem what so ever with M.D.C. Dinos at all, though I'd reduce the amount listed in the books by HALF (remember these were created by the Invid so they may of tweaked them a bit). Keep in mind you don't have to put PCs in M.D.C. situations ALL the time some of my best adventures have had the PCs with out their M.D.C. toys... If you don't like something you can always change it Kev and company even *ENCOURAGES* that you do it. Hence the Revised Mecha M.D.C.s from the link in my above post for the original RT game. I wasn't happy with the original values for some of the items.

[panzerfaust]

I could see M.D.C. tech being used outside the military, for some applications (there's alot of civilian application, such as construction, where M.D.C. would be VERY useful), and I could see cars and trucks and Construction Vehicles and the like being very light M.D.C (around 15 to 25 M.D.C. as obvisously they AREN'T designed for warfare) and I can see the Cops having M.D.C. Items due to the fact that the really serious criminals (even in the real world) have a knack for getting their mits on Military/M.D.C. hardware (If the military has 'em the hardened criminal surely will find a way to get 'em), the key is in the commoness and amounts of M.D.C. they have. Also I have no problem what so ever with M.D.C. Dinos at all, though I'd reduce the amount listed in the books by HALF (remember these were created by the Invid so they may of tweaked them a bit). Keep in mind you don't have to put PCs in M.D.C. situations ALL the time some of my best adventures have had the PCs with out their M.D.C. toys... If you don't like something you can always change it Kev and company even *ENCOURAGES* that you do it. Hence the Revised Mecha M.D.C.s from the link in my above post for the original RT game. I wasn't happy with the original values for some of the items.

But it still doesn't take into consideration the Palladium rules. S.D implements shalt not sully M.D.C. It's a very simple rule. But if Palladium Books is just going to ignore that rule then what hope is there for playing any sort of campaign outside of your mecha? Keeping in mind that this could be completely unfounded speculation of Sir Kev's intentions. However, the cutting and pasting of RIFTS level Dinos is rather unsettling.

The original Invid Invasion dinos were SDC creatures, the equivalent to a 240 M.D.C. That attribute matches your preference of halving the Shadow Chronicles book's M.D.C stat.

If the police car had 2500 S.D.C and an A.R 17, that means conventional weapons have a potential impact and it would STILL be at the 25 M.D.C levels you think is kosher.

I just don't feel the need for having to home rule - "I know it says S.D shall not sully M.D.C, but that's Military M.D.C you see. Civilian M.D.C has an Armour Rating that I now have to pluck out of the ether...trust me... I'm the G.M"

*shrugs* I guess it's a matter of Preference/Style but you're likely gonna be home ruling on things ANYWAY... For Instance, I've YET to find a game by ANY company that I'm COMPLETELY happy with.... There's always something you're gonna change when you get your hands on the game system..... *shrugs*

[Jefffar]

Kevin.

[slade the sniper]

Guess now isn't the time to say that I use AR for both MD and SD objects or that 100 SDC = 1 MDC and it goes both ways...which means that IF you can get your SDC weapons to crank on enough velocity or pack enough explosives, they can be MD capable weapons IF they can do 100 points of damage in a single attack (or per round if fired in a burst)...

Something like the .50 cal using Saboted Light Armor Piercing rounds...which can penetrate 34mm of rolled homogenous armor at 500 meters...

If ball ammo does 7d6 SDC, AP would add on +1d6 for 8d6 and, in my world at least saboted rounds that kick out at 4000 feet per second qualify for a x2 damage bonus versus hard (read armored) targets...so I would say that the M903 round does 8d6 damage versus crunchies and squishy things and does 1 MD to hard objects like mecha (dinosaurs still count as "soft" though).

-STS

[Beatmeclever]

Guess now isn't the time to say that I use AR for both MD and SD objects or that 100 SDC = 1 MDC and it goes both ways...which means that IF you can get your SDC weapons to crank on enough velocity or pack enough explosives, they can be MD capable weapons IF they can do 100 points of damage in a single attack (or per round if fired in a burst)...

Something like the .50 cal using Saboted Light Armor Piercing rounds...which can penetrate 34mm of rolled homogenous armor at 500 meters...

If ball ammo does 7d6 SDC, AP would add on +1d6 for 8d6 and, in my world at least saboted rounds that kick out at 4000 feet per second qualify for a x2 damage bonus versus hard (read armored) targets...so I would say that the M903 round does 8d6 damage versus crunchies and squishy things and does 1 MD to hard objects like mecha (dinosaurs still count as "soft" though).

-STS

Why bother with the distinction between the two then? Don't get me wrong, I haven't used MDC in years. However, I have a rule that says, "some weapons cannot hurt armored vehicles!"

[slade the sniper]

The BIGGEST and ONLY problem that I have with PB and the MDC/SDC debate is this:

weapons are designed to kill things as efficiently as possible...

The biggest baddest tanks in the world can be killed with a single shot by the biggest baddest weapons used against them...

The biggest baddest ships (Aircraft Carriers) can be sunk (though it does take a bit) by the biggest, baddest torpedoes or cruise missiles that can be used against them...

The biggest/baddest weapons are the ones that are most commonly used in a high intensity war between peer competitors...

Therefore it completely boggles my mind how in RIFTS (and to a lesser, but still noticeable extent) weapons damage was so pitiful compared to the objects they were supposed to destroy...

I mean really...250 MDC for a freaking, complex, mechamorphing FLYING object?? More than a tank??

I can go with super tech armor, and advanced this and handwavium that...but when EVERYTHING becomes a MDC object just 'cuz Palladium wants it's flagship product to have the biggest baddest widgets in the multiverse, I stopped using the "factory" specs for anything put out.

Granted, due to that I have had to make an entirely new damage ratings system for weapons and every object in the books...a lot of work? Yep, but it has been worth it to me to have battlepods that aren't worthless or Glitterboys that can't take over Invid Hives by themselves.

I think the biggest issue with the power creep of MDC is really based on "PC's are cooler than NPC's". I don't buy it. If I were playing a WW II RPG I am not going to make a Sherman tank the equal of a Panzer IV much less a Tiger...they are crap and I don't care if the PC's beg and whine, they were crap and they will be statted as such.

Same with any game that I play...PC's are NOT special because they are PC's...they are simply characters that are being played for enjoyment, not for a power gaming, masturbatory, empowerment head trip.

Due to that, I am forced to go through every book I buy from Kev and gang and redo all the damages and MDC. It's taken 4 3" ring binders, but I refuse to have any powered armor with more than 100 MDC, same as a 250 MDC pteradactyl is just never, ever, ever going to be in any game I GM.

I apologize for the rant, but it's been coming on for days since I read this thread...

Sorry...I'm going to go and chill out with my 75 MDC Cyclones and 150 MD glitterboys...275 MDC M1E2 SEP tanks...140mm rhinemetal smoothbores...AGM-119's...F-22 Raptors...Excalibers...MAC II...40cm cannons...battleship Missouri...calm...so calm now...boom, kill things.... calm....

-STS

[RockJock]

There is an approach through history that it is easier to make a weapon to beat a given defense, then a defense to beat a given weapon. I agree with that, but if you carry it over to RPGs then you are in a one shot one kill world. It just isn't fun. You game becomes a wargame with each player having a squad because most will die. Anyone ever play Halfife TFC, and then Counterstrike? Two views of the same situation, but with totally different emphasis.

[RockJock]

Not really. Look at history. It tends to be easier to build a new weapon to defeat a defensive scheme then the other way around. You use an armored vehicle I use a shaped charge. You put slat armor, or reactive armor on, I put a probe on the end, or use an IED, or a kinetic dark. Go back farther. You build a castle, I build siege weapons. Switch to stone, I get a bigger siege weapon, eventually building cannons. It tends to be cheaper and easier to change weapons then defensive systems. Part of it is that enemies tend to know what your defensive systems are, but it is hard to know what their weapons are. A tank needs to protect against all sorts of things while being light enough to be mobile. If the attacker develops a new weapon all your expensive tanks are obsolete. If the defender develops a new armor or what have you, it is usually to stop a specific attack, but you have to keep protecting against older styles of attack.

Basically, resource wise it is much more expensive to retrofit your armor then your bullet.

[RockJock]

There are active deterrents:) The IDF I think, or maybe the brits mount claymore style landminds on some of their tanks to stop swarming infantry, plus their is the good old machine gun:)

My point is that a game where every time character A gets shot he dies tends not to be fun, unless each player has 15 characters in his "squad". War gamings verses RPG.

[panzerfaust]

75 MDC Cyclones

While I reduce the M.D.C. Cyclones have, I don't reduce them by THAT much I generaly mutiply their main body M.D.C. by 0.80 (I multiply by 0.60 for Dave Dietrich's Third Invid War Cyclones) for a more reasonable number. For the Third Invid War Giant Mecha I also multiply by 0.80 (giving more managable numbers.

I think you are demanding TOO MUCH realism from the Palladium System as it's NOT meant to be acurate with or mimic the "Real" world..... Palladium Characters are HARD and take a LONG TIME to Create. As GM I try to recognize that and give the PCs a chance to survive a while. Does this mean I won't kill a PC if he's doing something Increadibly stupid? No, of course not... I alway try to Give the PC's an out.... If they'll take it. And if a PC dies to his stupidity, I usually take the player(s) aside and explain what happened and some things that could of been done differently... And treat it as a learning experience, so the Players can be better role players. The obect of the game is to have fun, and every one should be having fun, both the players and GM. I've met some munchkin players in my time, and I've met some "munchkin", power tripping GMs in my time as well and I think reducing PC survivability below reasonable level is "power tripping" on the part of the GM. If your players are cool with it, it's fine and more power to you. It's just not my style. For instance while I love his writing I'd NEVER play as a Player with Carmen Bellaire as GM.

[panzerfaust]

i still prefer to bring the rest up... since they lack far behind the rest of the megaverse.

I treat the Old RT RPG and the New RT RPG as very similar, yet seperate dimensions/realities (Saves me a LOT of CONTINUITY Headaches) that way I can play both of them to my heart's content and do whaever I want with the old timeline without players complaining "that's not how it happens in the show" I have a LOTA Free time (Being disabled does that to you) and run several games: Old Robotech, New Robotech, and Rifts (and have plans on using stuff from these and several other Palladium settings for my planed Homemade "AmalgaEarth Setting.

[RockJock]

Panzer, I here you. I'm just getting my brain to work again after a year. Hopefully my issues aren't permanent, but time is all I got right now.

[RockJock]

Give me a year or two Darkmax:)

[slade the sniper]

I apologize for my long-ish rant. I do demand a lot of realism from my games with regard to combat. Rather like all war movies are ruined when you join the military, same for role playing games.

For my part, it is hard listening to silly ideas about tactics and weapons all day long by people who should know better, then come home and play a game where those same silly ideas are used...

Meh...maybe I need to stay away from weapons damage threads for a bit...

-STS

[slade the sniper]

you have a point there... but there is still one form of attack modern tank cannot beat..... a soldier running up to the tank from behind and dropping a grenade into an opening... or in many case, near an opening.

Hand grenades do NOTHING to a buttoned up tank, they might crack a vision block. The hatches lock from the inside. Soldiers that leave their hatches open and have such poor security to have a crunchie toss a grenade in...well they caused that situation.

Soldiers with handgrenades vs buttoned up tanks = dead soldiers with hand grenades. Tanks are lethal, man. Every part of them can kill you. Falling off of them is dangerous...

-STS

[RockJock]

Think more sticky bomb, or satchel charge then hand grenade. You are still talking more like knocking out a tread then "blowing up" the tank. Grenades just don't have the punch, and aren't a penetrator or shaped charge. If you can wedge it somewhere, an exhaust port, in the turret ring etc you might do some damage, but if you have ever crawled on a tank you will notice there isn't much that is easily accessed.

[RockJock]

Placement and composition of the explosive I think would have a good deal to do with it. I see little reason why you couldn't make a limpet mine type setup with a shaped charge. There are always weaker sections, but if you are talking modern MBT they are much better protected.

[slade the sniper]

Speaking from experience, I would say that you could attach an explosive charge to a tank in various ways, but since it would be an untamped charge, the vast majority of the explosive force is going to be expended away from the tank...a hand grenade won't do anything to a tank...they are designed to be hard to kill, and hand grenade isn't going to do it...60mm mortars also do nothing, and 82mm mortars will leave a a small (1-2mm deep) crater in armor. A 120mm could "theoretically" kill a tank...

I know that unless you strap at least 20 pounds of HE to a tank, you aren't doing anything to it. Granted, if you put 20 pounds of HE on the vision block, it would destroy it, and "may" give the driver a concussion...but thinking that if you kill the driver, you kill the tank is incorrect.

The guns still work...

I just don't think that people who don't work around armored vehicles really understand just how ridiculously hard to kill they are. Unless you are using anti-tank weapons, you are barking up the wrong tree in taking on armored vehicles. Even 70-80mm HEAT rounds with tandem warheads are not killing armored vehicles in one hit...they may get a mobility kill or a firepower kill...but the idea that a tank goes BOOM and everybody dies is a myth unless it gets hit with a KE penetrator of 100mm or larger...a HEAT round of 100mm or larger, or it runs over an IED with at least 200 pounds of explosive (detonated underneath the vehicle where the armor is the thinnest.)

-STS

[Jefffar]

Dark, most modern tanks have visual silts protected by armoured glass - often comperable in protection value to the steel around it.

Incidently, until recently there was a signifigant amount of development put into hand grenades and rifle grenades designed to be anti-tank weapons with shaped charges - unfortunately they weren't accurate or long ranged enough and could pack a big enough charge to do the job, hence that field basically being taken over by rockets and missiles.

Still, one of those shaped-charge grenades could probably do a lot of damage to an IFV or APC.

[slade the sniper]

"The driver has either three observation periscopes or two periscopes on either side and a central image intensifying periscope for night vision. The periscopes provide 120° field of view. The DRS Technologies Driver's Vision Enhancer (DVE), AN/VSS-5, is based on a 328 x 245 element uncooled infrared detector array, operating in the 7.5 to 13 micron waveband. A Raytheon Driver's Thermal Viewer, AN/VAS-3, is installed on the M1A2 Abrams tanks for Kuwait."
for the M1A2 SEP, representative of "Legacy" tanks
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams/

"The driver has a good view, thanks to three periscopes, and his compartment is larger and more comfortable than those of other contemporary IFVs."
for the ASCOD IFV, representative of the new generation of IFV's.
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/publications/cyberpioneer/weapon/2007/jul07_weapon.html

"The driver is equipped with a Passive Driving Periscope, PDP, from Pilkington Optronics. The periscope uses a night vision image intensifier device. At night the tank is able to achieve speeds comparable to day-time speeds using the passive driving periscope and without the use of artificial light." For the Challenger 2.
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/chall2.htm

"The driver is equipped with three forward periscopes plus one periscope to the left. The central periscope can be replaced with the Northrop Grumman (formerly Litton) AN/VVS-2 driver's night viewer with a 25mm second-generation image intensifier. Upgraded M2 Bradleys are equipped with the DRS Technologies Driver’s Vision Enhancer (DVE)." For the M2A3/M3A3 Bradley (also for the M7). http://www.army-technology.com/projects/bradley/

"The driver's hatch is located on the left hand side of the front of the hull, directly in front of the turret. It has three periscope vision blocks which provide the driver with forward vision. The center vision block may be removed and replaced with a low-light periscope with a 50 m vision range." For the Type 62, Chinese tank. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_62

It is hard to find information on the T-55 and T-62 series, but the T-72 series DOES have periscopes "he's got 1 periscope to the front to look out of" http://www.dejawolf.com/steelbeasts/gallery/t72M1.html . There is, however an add in system, the PCO PNK-72/55, which is a drop in system to provide passive nightvision for the T-72 through T-55 series of tanks. The T-62 uses the same drivers hatch as the T-55, so the design will fit in the T-55/T-62 series as well. Therefore, we can say that a factory fresh T-62 may not have periscopes...but an aftermarket acessory makes up for that...http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&q=PCO%20PNK-72%2F55&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

Therefore, I think that I can safely say that any vehicle found on the modern battlefield (tank or IFV) WILL have vision blocks (or periscopes for the non-military types). There are armored vehicles (many) that are not tanks or IFV's that DO NOT have periscopes (such as the multiple types of MRAP's out there...but the glass they are using is still rated the same as the entire vehicle (STANAG 4569, KE rated 1-5, Grenade/Blast rated 1 through 4b)

The craptastic M1114 that is in use today in Iraq...and mind you, it is just an armored car...is rated at 3 for KE (which provides protection from Assault and Sniper rifles with AP tungsten carbide cores at 30m from 360 degrees around the vehicle at elevation of 0-30 degrees...it will also protect against 155mm artillery round shrapnel at 60m) and a 1 for Grenade/Blast (grenades, artillery fragmentation submunitions and other anti-personnel explosive devices detonated anywhere under the vehicle)...

So if your grenade was just laying anywhere on an M1114, it wouldn't kill anyone inside it.

If the grenade is INSIDE the vehicle, that's a different story...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/01/AR2007010100759.html

-STS

[AdmTolval]

mechanimorph wrote

It comes down to "what is S.D.C?"

S.D.C. is the annoying little stat one has to get over 100 or they will die if something looks at them hard when they don't have any armor left

[Beatmeclever]

This is what comes from too many gaming worlds being over-inflated with MDC structures and equipment and weapons that do MDC damage! People are made into nothing more than organic control systems for the mecha -- MECHANOIDS ARE PEOPLE!! (Sorry, I couldn't resist.) Adventures that involve anything more than mechanized action and combat can't happen as much since the unarmored human form is the weakest thing in the universe.

SDC (Structural Damage Capacity) in Palladium Fantasy (or any of the SDC Worlds) is the system by which the character is differentiated from the average person -- it is why he is a hero and not a zero. But in MDC worlds, this is reduced to nothing more than:

S.D.C. is the annoying little stat one has to get over 100 or they will die if something looks at them hard when they don't have any armor left

The problem is that MDC was a quick-fix to the problem of being able to beat a tank by hitting it enough times with a baseball bat. The problem isn't really in the vehicle armor (AR and SDC used to work just fine), it is in the weapons (RECON simply states that armor stops certain types of weaponry, has a percentage chance of stopping others, and survives a percentage of encounters with others).

For example, on the entry for the M-48A3 Patton II Tank, RECON reads thus, "Armor: Stops pistol, rifle, machinegun, and fragments. Highly resistant to mines and anti-tank rockets. Survives 65% of encounters."

The game just needs to make statements like that along with an AR for each vehicle and then the MDC can be made into SDC on a 1:1 basis.

[Jefffar]

hmm... nice, but... is there air-conditioning in there?! That gas turbine will cook them all!!!....

In the newer AFVs, typically yes.

For example, the Canadian Army is switching their Leopard 1s for Leopard 2s mostly because the Leo 1's that are being used in Afghanistan are not air conditioned, but the Leo 2s are.

[slade the sniper]

hmm... nice, but... is there air-conditioning in there?! That gas turbine will cook them all!!!....

M1's have AC...it goes out a lot though, so they usually use the NBC overpressure system instead.

M2's are HOT brother...it's not uncommon for drivers to be cruising around the desert in their shorts and body armor (if that).

I know that it can get up to 140 degrees in those armored boxes. You drink water constantly...and you still get heat casualties after an hour and all they are doing is sitting. Dismounts can't wait to get to the fight so they can go outside into the cool 120 degree air

-STS

[Jefffar]

That's what happens when you send vehciles designed to fight a war in central europe into the Arabian desert.

[Beatmeclever]

The game just needs to make statements like that along with an AR for each vehicle and then the MDC can be made into SDC on a 1:1 basis.

That's an excellent solution that wouldn't invalidate 18 years of Rifts books, which is what Palladium is a slave to.

So do you have a table of common AR types?

Sure, I'll give my AR/SDC charts to anyone who wants them. PM me with how to get them to you (PM or email).

[Beatmeclever]

How inclusive is it?.... Not insulting, just asking.

No insult taken. My list includes all three generations and every mecha/vehicle listed in the books that I felt would be armored. That is, some vehicles can take pistol fire and be damaged due to their not being made of "alien" metals and composites, like some space shuttles, aircraft, and cars. And a baseball bat WILL damage some space vehicles.

[panzerfaust]

I'm gonna do the following for a rifts game I plan to run:

Here are some conversion Rates for the Rifts RPG (also applicable to the Macross II and Splicers RPGs) to convert M.D.C.power armor , bots , vehicles and weapons to the S.D.C. system.

Multiply by the Listed amounts to get S.D.C.:

M.D. Times 2 is now the S.D.C. damage for vibro-blades .

M.D. Times 2 is now the S.D.C. damage for hand-held Small Arms type weapons .

M.D. Times 3 (Tmes 2 for Man-sized Railguns) is now the S.D.C. damage for heavy or power armor mounted weapons (Includes Hand grenades), also note that Railguns do their converted burst damage in M.D. as S.D.C. per a singe shot (I.E. a C-40R SAMAS Railgun now does 2D4x10 S.D.C. per a single round) and that bursts from railguns should be treated as exacty the same as those ofMachineguns.

M.D.Times 10 is now the S.D.C. damage for heavy vehicle mounted weapons (Includes the Glitter Boy's Boom-Gun).

M.D. Times 10 is now the S.D.C. damage for explosives .

M.D.C. Times 2 is now the S.D.C. for body armor (this puts Plastic-Man roughly equivalent with riot armor) and ALL Rifts Hich-Tech Body Armor has the equivalent of Natural/Robot A.R.

M.D.C. Times 2 is now the S.D.C. for power armor , cyborgs , small vehicles, and man-sized robots (this gives a Death's Head SAMAS 500 S.D.C., about as much as a mack truck) and ALL Bionic Systems and Military Vehicles have an equivalent of Natural/Robot A.R.

M.D.C. Times 3 is now the S.D.C. for M.D.C. tanks, conventional vehicles that are larger than man sized, ships , submarines, Glitter Boys and Giant Robots (this gives the largest Iron Heart Armaments tank something like 1900 S.D.C., which is better but still in the same ballpark as an M-1 Abrams at 1500 S.D.C.), and also ALL Military Vehcles have an equivalent of Natural/Robot A.R.

M.D.C. Times 1 to Times 10 for truly massive things (starships, Chi-Town, etc). The balance on these kinds of things varies dramatically (See the above for notes on A.R. for these).

Use the rules on page 32 of the Rifts Conversion Book One Revised Edition to Determine the Armor Ratings (A.R.) for these items.

Exo-skeleton body armor and Partial Conversion Cyborgs and Juicers have a physical strength equal to the Heroes Unlimited Minor Super Ability: Extraordinary Physical Strength , Power Armor, Full Conversion Cyborgs have an physical strength equal to the Heros Unlimited Minor Super Ability: Super Human Physical Strength , and Giant Robots have an equivalent physical strength to the Heroes Unlimited Major Super Ability : Super Human Physical Strength.

NOTE: For magical creatures, spells, and creations just use the rules on page 31 of the Rifts Conversion Book One Revised Edition
to turn them into S.D.C./Hit Point equivalent creatures, then take a look at how they stat out and modify them to your liking.