Thoughts on Pre-Rifts Gear

[shadrak]

So, I was thinking about some of the pre-Rifts gear in the various canon sources and I was thinking about the background on it. It would be interesting if Palladium published a small supplement that collected an expanded on some of these different pre-Rifts items.

Timeline of introduction:

2025 - Introduction of the Modular Enhanced Body Armor MEBA . This was the last modular armor system utilized by the American military prior to the coming of the Rifts. It was phased out in favor of more modern systems that enhanced Soldier survivability against non-ballistic threats, but it remained in National Guard inventories through the 2060's when it was finally transferred to civilian organizations or sold to less technologically capable nations. The MEBA consists of a lightly armored jumpsuit that can be reinforced with hard plates across the body in order to afford greater protection against ballistic threats. This type of armor is available today from a variety of manufacturers and it is commonly used by private security forces in many of the more modern nations of Rifts Earth. Immediately prior to the coming of the rifts, several nations had instituted an overhaul of the MEBA system that substituted MDC plates for the original SDC inserts.

MEBA Basic: AR: 14 Head: 100 SDC Main Body: 55 SDC Arms: 35 SDC Legs: 40 SDC, Weight: 8 lbs, no penalties to physical activities
MEBA I: AR: 15 Head: 100 SDC Main Body: 150 SDC Arms: 55 SDC Legs: 65 SDC, Weight: 15 lbs, -10 % to physical activities
MEBA II: AR: 16 Head: 100 SDC Main Body: 240 SDC Arms: 80 SDC Legs: 120 SDC, Weight: 25 lbs, -25% to physical activities
MEBA X: AR: 16*(Helmet is a standard MDC helmet) Head: 35 MDC Main Body: 25 MDC Arms: 8 MDC Legs: 10 MDC, Weight: 15 lbs, -10% to physical activities; PA 109 Price: 8,000 credits

2037 - Introduction of the U.S. Military's Fullbody Unified Survivability System (Fusion Suit). Each of these suits were individually fitted to Service member that wore them. These suits were the first fully environmental body armor suits used by the U.S. Military and were introduced just after the adoption of the NAA in 2035. By 2045 these suits had been adopted by NEMA's special response teams as well and had spread throughout the member nations of the NAA. This suit offered temperature controls that enabled the wearer to operate in environments of -10 degrees Fahrenheit to 140 degrees Fahrenheit and contained an internal 2-hour air supply.
This suit was featured in the Rifts Adventure Book and represents the heaviest non-powered SDC armor system that existed prior to the coming of the Rifts. Once uncommon in the post-Rifts world, this armor has become increasingly common despite its expense as private security firms are able to legally use this armor in Iphsheming, the Manestique Imperium, and in several other jurisdictions that regulate the use of military weapons and equipment. The Manistique Imperium currently produces this armor.
Fusion Suit: SDC By Location: Head: 400 SDC Main Body: 800 SDC Arms: 250 SDC Legs: 300 SDC, Weight: 35 lbs, -25% to physical activities. PA 109 Price: 18,000 credits

2042 - Adoption of the M-20 Assault Rifle (see Rifts Underseas) by the U.S. Marine Corps. The M-20 would continue to remain as part of the U.S. Marine arsenal long after the introduction of more advanced energy weapon systems.
Both the U.S. Army and Marines as well as the Mexican National Defense Army and the Canadian Armed Forces adopted the M-200 Light Support Weapon System, a system nearly identical to the M-20 assault rifle except for a longer, heavier barrel and a more robust action, and the ability to change rapidly between multiple calibers. The M-200 would be capable of using the same magazines as the M-20 or a specialized drum magazines. The M-200 would not last as long as the M-20 as it was not nearly as versatile as well as the fact that more modern energy weapons and light rail guns were much more capable of filling its role. Very few M-200s survived to the coming of the Rifts and even fewer survived beyond the coming of the Rifts.

M-200
Weight: 16 lbs fully loaded.
Mega-Damage: A single shot using M-20's 4.5mm round inflicts 4D6 SDC damage while 4.5mm AP rounds inflict 1D4x10 SDC damage. A burst of 15 rounds does 2 M.D. points of damage while a burst of 15 AP rounds do 3 MD damage.
A single shot using the alternative .50 XA ammunition inflicts 6D6 SDC damage while a .50 XA Explosive Round inflicts 1D6x10 SDC damage. A burst of 15 rounds does 4 M.D. points of damage while a burst of 15 .50 XA Explosive Rounds does 1D6+4 MD damage.
Rate of Fire: 1 round at a time or bursts of 15 rounds (counts as 2 melee attacks).
Maximum Effective Range: 2000 feet
Payload: Capable of using the M-20's 64-round magazines or a 300 round drum. .50 XA drums could hold 90 rounds.
Cost: Not normally available.

2048 - Introduction of the Regulus (Mark II Battlefield Armor - Merc Ops); Introduction of the Antares (Mark I flight suit - Merc Ops), Introduction of the Fomalhaut (Glitterboy Pilot Armor - Sourcebook 1 [original]). These armors would be relegated to the National Guard and Reserve forces of the NAA member nations by 2080, though the both the Antares and the Fomalhaut wold continue to see frontline service as the standard armor for aircraft/robot crews and Glitterboys, respectively. NOTE: When initially offered these armors were SDC armor with about 1/8 of the protection of the MDC versions that would be offered in the late 2060's (that is, the Antares is normally 16 MDC; the original was 200 SDC, the Regulus had 475 SDC, and the Fomalhaut had 315 SDC)

2050 - Introduction of the LAWS-3 (see Rifts Underseas)

2055 - Adoption of the M-21L by the U.S. Army (GAW M21 - Merc Ops). The M-21L would prove to be popular and thousands would be demilitarized by replacing the MD laser with a similar laser that would do 6D6 SDC damage. By 2080 there were nearly 800,000 (demilitarized) M-21L's in civilian hands and another 1.2 million M-21Ls in the armories of reserve component forces of the NAA member states.

2067 - Introduction of the M17 Laser Pistol and M8 Laser Rifle. Though cosmetically different, these weapons were functionally identical to the NG-33 Northern Gun Laser Pistol and the NG-L5 Northern Gun Laser Rifle respectively.

2075 - Adoption of the Cuirassier Body Armor by the U.S. Army. Identical to Urban Warrior Environmental Body Armor.

2079 - Adoption of the Semper Fi Body Armor by the U.S. Marines (see Rifts Underseas - US Marine Combat Armor) and the Fortis (see Rifts Underseas - US Navy Body Armor). Additionally, the M-2011 and M-160 (again, Rifts Underseas) were adopted at this time.

2083 - Adoption of the Improved Cuirassier by the U.S. Army, a streamlined, advanced version of the Cuirassier (see Armor from Treasure Hunt - Rifts Index and Adventures 2), and the M-3 Laser Rifle and M-12 Laser Pistol (also Rifts Index and Adventures 2). These armor and weapons systems would almost immediately be relegated to the U.S. Army National Guard as well as state and local police agencies by 2094, before they were even fully fielded, after the reduction of the active militaries of the NAA signatories that resulted from from the adoption of the Enhanced Cooperation Agreement of 2093 that identified the NAA military forces as expeditionary and special operations in nature with NEMA, civilian police, and reserve component forces as joint cooperative homeland defense forces. The military's immediate downsizing would see the U.S. Army transition from a force of 300,000 active component Soldiers to a force of less than 50,000. The Mexican and Canadian Armies, never as large the U.S. Army in the first place, would see similarly dramatic cuts in manning. Naval and Marine forces were largely spared from the cuts resulting from the 2093 Enhanced Cooperation Agreement.

2094-2098 - Adoption and fielding of the standard NEMA equipment by NEMA.

2096 - Use of standardized or modified NEMA equipment by the U.S., Mexican, and Canadian Militaries. USA SAMAS (see Spirit West) would be adopted to replace US Army manned rotary attack and surveillance assets while Wild Weasel and Sidewinder SAMAS (see New West) would be explored by the US Air Force as alternatives for fixed wing air craft *the SAMAS would not be formally adopted by the Air Force before the coming of the Rifts.
U.S., Mexican, and Canadian Infantry would use a version of the FR-EX 220 (the Talon ExoArmor) and a variety of other NEMA weapons. NEMA versions of these systems would outnumber the military versions by 10 or 20 to 1 due to the relatively small size of the NAA member-states expeditionary forces. Conversely, the military would field "Big Dogs" in greater numbers than NEMA (in an artillery support role) and would utilize a mix of Gunbusters and Chromium Guardsmen in an anti-armor role. Still, these large suits and robots were rare even within the military due to the nature of the military force.

[taalismn]

Wholly approved by the RPG-Noodlers of America(membership: 1)

[dreicunan]

Refresh my memory: is there a canon source for these assertions about reduction of the US military?

[jaymz]

Are these your assertions as to when these items were introduced in pre-rifts history?

[slade the sniper]

A single shot using M-20's 4.5mm round inflicts 4D6 SDC damage while 4.5mm AP rounds inflict 1D4x10 SDC damage.

Unless you are shooting flesh with those AP rounds...in which case, the damage would actually be lower than ball ammo.

-STS

[jaymz]

A single shot using M-20's 4.5mm round inflicts 4D6 SDC damage while 4.5mm AP rounds inflict 1D4x10 SDC damage.

Unless you are shooting flesh with those AP rounds...in which case, the damage would actually be lower than ball ammo.

-STS

Except there really is no ap mechanic in palldadium per se in general game play (there are some side note rules in hu and the modern compendium but that's it)

[Grell]

I believe Merc Ops has some stats for pre-rifts military armor and weapons. Also Underseas has some old Marine armor, weapons and vehicles. Don't forget GAW either.

[shadrak]

Are these your assertions as to when these items were introduced in pre-rifts history?

No, this is a projection based on the relative power and flavor text of canon U.S. Military Pre-Rifts equipment. Palladium has been very inconsistent and this is just a way to create consistency...not intended to match canon as canon has very little to say about precise dates.

A single shot using M-20's 4.5mm round inflicts 4D6 SDC damage while 4.5mm AP rounds inflict 1D4x10 SDC damage.

Unless you are shooting flesh with those AP rounds...in which case, the damage would actually be lower than ball ammo.

-STS

This is based off of canon equipment in MercOps, Chaos Earth, Underseas and Index and Adventures 2. If they are a creation I inserted, then they are still relatively inline with what Palladium published. In this case, I think you are questioning a machinegun/squad automatic rifle that is intended to be paired with the canon M16-style assault rifle in MercOps or with the Marine M-16-style assault rifle in Underseas (probably Underseas).

I believe Merc Ops has some stats for pre-rifts military armor and weapons. Also Underseas has some old Marine armor, weapons and vehicles. Don't forget GAW either.

That is where these come from.

[jaymz]

Ok then the only problematic thing is md/mdc does existing canon until the 2050s. Introducing such items earlier would cause issues to some degree.

[shadrak]

Ok then the only problematic thing is md/mdc does existing canon until the 2050s. Introducing such items earlier would cause issues to some degree.

Do you know where the 2050 date is cited? I was going off of a fan timeline of events published back in 2004, so I believe it may have been pre-RUE.

Anyway, the intent would be to just logical timeline and backstory for these canonical but throw away pieces of equipment so that there could be a little more consistency.

[glitterboy2098]

Triax 2 establishes when mdc material was first discovered and applied. Would habe to check the dates though, don't remember off the top of my head. But i don't think it was as early as 2050.

[shadrak]

Triax 2 establishes when mdc material was first discovered and applied. Would habe to check the dates though, don't remember off the top of my head. But i don't think it was as early as 2050.

Thank you, I remember reading it, but I would have looked forever and not thought to look at Triax 2.

Assuming Triax is the first originator (which maybe a discrepancy from other sources), it looks like sometimes after 2050 with body armor being fielded in 2064...

Which means there is (assuming no discrepancies from other publications) and EXTREMELY short timeline to go from really crappy MDC armor to armor more advanced than Triax armor (NEMA armor) after nearly 400 years of continuous production and research.

The Mark II Battle Armor (Merc Ops) is the "US Army's standard issue armor for the mid-21 st century." Now, this discrepancy could be fixed by making the Mark II out of "soft" SDC Materials like the Mark I...and should the Mark I be 1600 SDC rather than 16 MDC?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Triax 2 establishes when mdc material was first discovered and applied. Would habe to check the dates though, don't remember off the top of my head. But i don't think it was as early as 2050.

Thank you, I remember reading it, but I would have looked forever and not thought to look at Triax 2.

Assuming Triax is the first originator (which maybe a discrepancy from other sources), it looks like sometimes after 2050 with body armor being fielded in 2064...

Triax creates the first MDC steel via nanotechnology in 2021. (And are therefore the originators of “MDC” materials; though one could argue that the real innovation wasn’t so much it being impossible to damage with SDC weapons as it was creating it in a substance that was light and usable, as opposed to the very few earlier forms of “MDC” armor such as the CHOBAM armor on tanks, which was quite a bit heavier than anything else).

The first “lightweight body armor” was revealed by Triax in 2064 (along with the first Power Armor), and the Cataclysm occured in 2098, 34 years later.

Which means there is (assuming no discrepancies from other publications) and EXTREMELY short timeline to go from really crappy MDC armor to armor more advanced than Triax armor (NEMA armor) after nearly 400 years of continuous production and research.

I agree. The timeframe as presented is pretty silly. Especially since MDC steel was created in 2021, and it took another 43 years to get to body armor? Thats not terribly believable.

However, the term “lightweight body armor” does imply the possibility of “some pretty heavy body armor” that was MDC well before that. As it stands, MDC armor (as presented in Rifts) is ABSURDLY light at ~20-30lbs. One can easily imagine heavier MDC armor before the reveal in 2064 that weighed into the 60-90lbs area (which yes, you can fight in. A good Gothic Plate harness is about 65lbs and people fought in those just fine).

Also, youre bringing up one of my biggest pet peeves with the setting info: Triax would/should have had technology every bit the equivalent of NEMA (or just barely behind, but thats hard to believe considering that the JA-11, JA-12, JA-9, and Juicer A. Plate Armor are all “Pre Rifts German designs, and every bit as good as anything NEMA put out).... and then almost THREE. HUNDRED. YEARS. To improve on it. Triax’s tech (and potentially Mindwerks’) should be LIGHT YEARS ahead of anything the CS has (ahead of anything else on the planet that isn’t of alien origin like the Splugorth, etc)... and it isn’t. Its a rather major plot hole (IMO, the second or third biggest, with the biggest being the fact that fast air vehicles should make travel in Rifts Earth the exact opposite of what is described (slow slogs through vast wilderness) ... but lets save that for another time).

The Mark II Battle Armor (Merc Ops) is the "US Army's standard issue armor for the mid-21 st century." Now, this discrepancy could be fixed by making the Mark II out of "soft" SDC Materials like the Mark I...and should the Mark I be 1600 SDC rather than 16 MDC?

Nah, 16 MDC in 2050 seems... fine.

[jaymz]

Remember mid century could be into the 2070s.....and also remember palladium and coherent consistency do not generally go together.....

[jaymz]

Colonel you are incorrect. As per triax 2 the corporation of triax was formed in 2021 and mdc material was first developed in 2050.

Pages 69-70

[dreicunan]

Also, youre bringing up one of my biggest pet peeves with the setting info: Triax would/should have had technology every bit the equivalent of NEMA (or just barely behind, but thats hard to believe considering that the JA-11, JA-12, JA-9, and Juicer A. Plate Armor are all “Pre Rifts German designs, and every bit as good as anything NEMA put out).... and then almost THREE. HUNDRED. YEARS. To improve on it. Triax’s tech (and potentially Mindwerks’) should be LIGHT YEARS ahead of anything the CS has (ahead of anything else on the planet that isn’t of alien origin like the Splugorth, etc)... and it isn’t. Its a rather major plot hole (IMO, the second or third biggest, with the biggest being the fact that fast air vehicles should make travel in Rifts Earth the exact opposite of what is described (slow slogs through vast wilderness) ... but lets save that for another time).

I'm not as annoyed by Triax not being as far ahead, because the Naruni have heen around for who knows how much longer than anyone on Rifts Earth and even their tech isn't that much further ahead when it comes to weapons and armor. Or just the whole 3 galaxies in general when it comes to weapons and armor.

The travel one I definitely agree with you about, however. Least supported conceit of the setting by far.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Colonel you are incorrect. As per triax 2 the corporation of triax was formed in 2021 and mdc material was first developed in 2050.

Pages 69-70

Nope.

2021 - Triax industries is founded in Frankfurt through the consolidation of three German industrial companies (specializing respectively in steel manufacturing, robotics, and advanced computers). The company comes onto the world scene when it develops a way to create Mega-Damage steel through molecular bonding, a form of nanotechnology.
2030 - Hovercraft technology is perfected and made available to the mass market by a German automobile company

I truncated the rest because its not necessary.

However.. "the company comes onto the world scene " is CLEARLY in happening in 2021. Notice how there is another entry immediately following.

Triax created MDC steel in 2021.

The phrasing on page 69 and 70 seem to support this - they had been working on this stuff for 30 years (as of 2050). The stuff they rolled out in 2050 was "a steel-like super-alloy", not "MDC Steel".

This would also jive with "super lightweight armor" being released in 2064, as the processes to create MDC materials became more advanced.

further support for this goes on:

"Triax had been pulled from the very brink of total financial collapse to emerge on the world scene as the original creator of synthetic Mega Damage material - again, referring to lightweight super-alloys, and (further down the page) - "In the summer of 2064, long heralded as the first year of the Golden Age of Humankind, Triax attended the World's Fair (truncated some parts here) - For the first time ever, the world was witness to lightweight, full-environmental, Mega Damage Body Armor (truncated the rest)"

Seems pretty damn clear to me.

Triax invented MDC steel in 2021 or so, but the stuff was murderously heavy and not practical for use for much (very much like some modern super armors like CHOBAM; its so expensive and so heavy its pretty much useful for.. tanks and nothing else). By 2050 they made a breakthrough that allowed them to make synthetic metals and alloys and to molecularly bond ceramics and plastics as well, which lead the way into what Rifts Earth knows of as "Mega Damage" materials - the ultra-lightweight, ultra-durable stuff common in Rifts Earth.

I will add that 2064 being the "First Year of the Golden Age" is kinda hillarious. The "Golden Age of Humankind" was all of 34 years.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Also, youre bringing up one of my biggest pet peeves with the setting info: Triax would/should have had technology every bit the equivalent of NEMA (or just barely behind, but thats hard to believe considering that the JA-11, JA-12, JA-9, and Juicer A. Plate Armor are all “Pre Rifts German designs, and every bit as good as anything NEMA put out).... and then almost THREE. HUNDRED. YEARS. To improve on it. Triax’s tech (and potentially Mindwerks’) should be LIGHT YEARS ahead of anything the CS has (ahead of anything else on the planet that isn’t of alien origin like the Splugorth, etc)... and it isn’t. Its a rather major plot hole (IMO, the second or third biggest, with the biggest being the fact that fast air vehicles should make travel in Rifts Earth the exact opposite of what is described (slow slogs through vast wilderness) ... but lets save that for another time).

I'm not as annoyed by Triax not being as far ahead, because the Naruni have heen around for who knows how much longer than anyone on Rifts Earth and even their tech isn't that much further ahead when it comes to weapons and armor. Or just the whole 3 galaxies in general when it comes to weapons and armor.

Eh, Naruni corporate tech is quite a bit further ahead than the stuff they sell to plebs. Plasma rifles with 4000+ ft ranges that do 2d4x10 per shot, for instance, and the vehicle-mounted stuff with ranges in the miles (and thats just on their fighters) - as well as force fields that are double the MDC of the ones they sell.

They also have a pretty good conceit for the level of the 3Gs tech being where it is - there's no constant, existential threat to the Three Galaxies as a whole to force continuous rapid technological advancement. The tech is "good enough" (and in most cases, more than good enough) for everyday use. I dont remember what book this was in, but its a plausible reason. Similar to the Star Wars universe, without some massive need to research new technologies, by the time you're that advanced, there's little reason to worry about it. And.. for a lot of stuff, their tech is WAY ahead of Earth. Personal Force Fields, anti-grav technology (that fits in a "jetpack", no less), super-advanced Techno-Wizardry, and their weapons are quite a bit more advanced, even the "bad" ones. HI-80 does significantly more than any Earth pulse rifle, for instance, and there's NOTHING that can compare with the GR-guns for man-portable physical-damage weapons for either range or damage.

The NGR, OTOH, has been under siege for centuries. Theyve had a fire lit under them for advancing their weapons/technology since forever. They should be way further ahead (probably on par with the 3G, sans anti-grav technology) than they are.

The travel one I definitely agree with you about, however. Least supported conceit of the setting by far.

Drives me insane every time i see it mentioned, TBH.

[dreicunan]

Spoiler:

Also, youre bringing up one of my biggest pet peeves with the setting info: Triax would/should have had technology every bit the equivalent of NEMA (or just barely behind, but thats hard to believe considering that the JA-11, JA-12, JA-9, and Juicer A. Plate Armor are all “Pre Rifts German designs, and every bit as good as anything NEMA put out).... and then almost THREE. HUNDRED. YEARS. To improve on it. Triax’s tech (and potentially Mindwerks’) should be LIGHT YEARS ahead of anything the CS has (ahead of anything else on the planet that isn’t of alien origin like the Splugorth, etc)... and it isn’t. Its a rather major plot hole (IMO, the second or third biggest, with the biggest being the fact that fast air vehicles should make travel in Rifts Earth the exact opposite of what is described (slow slogs through vast wilderness) ... but lets save that for another time).

I'm not as annoyed by Triax not being as far ahead, because the Naruni have heen around for who knows how much longer than anyone on Rifts Earth and even their tech isn't that much further ahead when it comes to weapons and armor. Or just the whole 3 galaxies in general when it comes to weapons and armor.

Eh, Naruni corporate tech is quite a bit further ahead than the stuff they sell to plebs. Plasma rifles with 4000+ ft ranges that do 2d4x10 per shot, for instance, and the vehicle-mounted stuff with ranges in the miles (and thats just on their fighters) - as well as force fields that are double the MDC of the ones they sell.

They also have a pretty good conceit for the level of the 3Gs tech being where it is - there's no constant, existential threat to the Three Galaxies as a whole to force continuous rapid technological advancement. The tech is "good enough" (and in most cases, more than good enough) for everyday use. I dont remember what book this was in, but its a plausible reason. Similar to the Star Wars universe, without some massive need to research new technologies, by the time you're that advanced, there's little reason to worry about it. And.. for a lot of stuff, their tech is WAY ahead of Earth. Personal Force Fields, anti-grav technology (that fits in a "jetpack", no less), super-advanced Techno-Wizardry, and their weapons are quite a bit more advanced, even the "bad" ones. HI-80 does significantly more than any Earth pulse rifle, for instance, and there's NOTHING that can compare with the GR-guns for man-portable physical-damage weapons for either range or damage.

The NGR, OTOH, has been under siege for centuries. Theyve had a fire lit under them for advancing their weapons/technology since forever. They should be way further ahead (probably on par with the 3G, sans anti-grav technology) than they are.

I should have specified man-portable weapons and body armor, as that is what I had in mind when comparing. Among those, the HI-80 is definitely an outlier as a laser weapon. You are quite right that both Naruni and 3G in general are far advanced in other ways.

I would dispute the GR weapons being superior in every way for range and damage. A triax pump pistol does 4d6 out to 800 ft, better than the 2d6 MD for a single shot for a GR pistol, and the TX-16 pump rifle does 4d6 out to 1600. Those were both rate of fire standard, so it seems that based on the GMG they could do a 2 round burst for double damage, as pump weapons are mentioned as being able to do a burst (some may disagree, of course, and the guidance is a bit conflicting). The TX-17 can get 4d6 out to 1200 ft, or 1d4x10+4 with a 3 rlund burst, superior to the GR-15AR and its 3d4 single and 1d4x10 (that should at best be 6d6) 3 round burst, though it can also de 2d4x10 with a 10 round burst. The range is 1000 ft for those unless you get the sniper rifle reconfiguration. Now, there is also the equalizer combat shotgun that can put 5d6 put to 1000 ft, the Illapa 5 rocket rifle does 4d6 single, 1d4x10 3 round, and 2d4x10 10 round, but out to 2600 ft (and while that is Empire of the Sun, their tech is all homegrown). Now, if I'm forgetting about a GR weapon from one of the books, let me know.

A couple of the Naruni weapons are pretty insane, like the shoulder canon (which is actually 2d4x10+20 out to 6000 ft. The range it gets is pretty inexplicable compared to basically all the other plasma cartridge weapons). Is there a different one that I am forgetting about?

I suppose part of the explanation to justify canon Triax progression may just be that while they were facing an existential threat, they also found that, like in the 3G, their gear was "good enough" for long stretches of their history. They lost Berlin in 2150, then reclaimed it in 2245. Zurich was taken by the gargoyles in 2262 but, of course, was part of Switzerland pre-cataclysm, and I've always been a bit unclear on if it was ever part of the NGR after the cataclysm. In fact, Triax 1 makes it sound like the NGR didn't really feel like it was under much of an existential threat until 2289 / 3 PA when they started the Bloody Campaign, after which they felt like it was mission accomplished. Even then when the Gargoyles counter-attacked in 38 PA most of the fighting was outside the NGR. A reading of Triax 1 pages 13-17 sure doesn't make it sound like they felt all that worried about faltering until around 88 PA.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Spoiler:

Also, youre bringing up one of my biggest pet peeves with the setting info: Triax would/should have had technology every bit the equivalent of NEMA (or just barely behind, but thats hard to believe considering that the JA-11, JA-12, JA-9, and Juicer A. Plate Armor are all “Pre Rifts German designs, and every bit as good as anything NEMA put out).... and then almost THREE. HUNDRED. YEARS. To improve on it. Triax’s tech (and potentially Mindwerks’) should be LIGHT YEARS ahead of anything the CS has (ahead of anything else on the planet that isn’t of alien origin like the Splugorth, etc)... and it isn’t. Its a rather major plot hole (IMO, the second or third biggest, with the biggest being the fact that fast air vehicles should make travel in Rifts Earth the exact opposite of what is described (slow slogs through vast wilderness) ... but lets save that for another time).

I'm not as annoyed by Triax not being as far ahead, because the Naruni have heen around for who knows how much longer than anyone on Rifts Earth and even their tech isn't that much further ahead when it comes to weapons and armor. Or just the whole 3 galaxies in general when it comes to weapons and armor.

Eh, Naruni corporate tech is quite a bit further ahead than the stuff they sell to plebs. Plasma rifles with 4000+ ft ranges that do 2d4x10 per shot, for instance, and the vehicle-mounted stuff with ranges in the miles (and thats just on their fighters) - as well as force fields that are double the MDC of the ones they sell.

They also have a pretty good conceit for the level of the 3Gs tech being where it is - there's no constant, existential threat to the Three Galaxies as a whole to force continuous rapid technological advancement. The tech is "good enough" (and in most cases, more than good enough) for everyday use. I dont remember what book this was in, but its a plausible reason. Similar to the Star Wars universe, without some massive need to research new technologies, by the time you're that advanced, there's little reason to worry about it. And.. for a lot of stuff, their tech is WAY ahead of Earth. Personal Force Fields, anti-grav technology (that fits in a "jetpack", no less), super-advanced Techno-Wizardry, and their weapons are quite a bit more advanced, even the "bad" ones. HI-80 does significantly more than any Earth pulse rifle, for instance, and there's NOTHING that can compare with the GR-guns for man-portable physical-damage weapons for either range or damage.

The NGR, OTOH, has been under siege for centuries. Theyve had a fire lit under them for advancing their weapons/technology since forever. They should be way further ahead (probably on par with the 3G, sans anti-grav technology) than they are.

I should have specified man-portable weapons and body armor, as that is what I had in mind when comparing. Among those, the HI-80 is definitely an outlier as a laser weapon. You are quite right that both Naruni and 3G in general are far advanced in other ways.

I would dispute the GR weapons being superior in every way for range and damage. A triax pump pistol does 4d6 out to 800 ft, better than the 2d6 MD for a single shot for a GR pistol, and the TX-16 pump rifle does 4d6 out to 1600. Those were both rate of fire standard, so it seems that based on the GMG they could do a 2 round burst for double damage, as pump weapons are mentioned as being able to do a burst (some may disagree, of course, and the guidance is a bit conflicting). The TX-17 can get 4d6 out to 1200 ft, or 1d4x10+4 with a 3 rlund burst, superior to the GR-15AR and its 3d4 single and 1d4x10 (that should at best be 6d6) 3 round burst, though it can also de 2d4x10 with a 10 round burst. The range is 1000 ft for those unless you get the sniper rifle reconfiguration. Now, there is also the equalizer combat shotgun that can put 5d6 put to 1000 ft, the Illapa 5 rocket rifle does 4d6 single, 1d4x10 3 round, and 2d4x10 10 round, but out to 2600 ft (and while that is Empire of the Sun, their tech is all homegrown). Now, if I'm forgetting about a GR weapon from one of the books, let me know.

No, but i wasnt including explosive weapons, which every instance you provided is. =)

Nothing wrong with that, but if we're talking explosive weapons, 3G has guns that literally fire self-guided mini-missiles out to 2 miles.

I was just referring to man-portable slug throwers, which i suppose wold include Ramjets, but those are generally limited to 500ft or so for the ones that do appreciable damage (shotguns). MercOps i think later introduced some absolutely munchkin-insane machine guns that do better than rail gun damage with Ramjets, but at the time most of the 3G stuff was printed, it was WAY better than anything Rifts Earth had in that category.

A couple of the Naruni weapons are pretty insane, like the shoulder canon (which is actually 2d4x10+20 out to 6000 ft. The range it gets is pretty inexplicable compared to basically all the other plasma cartridge weapons). Is there a different one that I am forgetting about?

No, its all inferrence and a few throwaway lines in various books that Naruni keeps its best stuff for itself, which is the backed up by the few sources that are actually in print. (Check out the Corporate Fire-Eater, for an example). The shields that are 2x better are listed in the Repo Bot (and one of the Uteni or True Naruni has a "has the same personal shield of a Repo Bot" line). There is a throwaway line somewhere (either the Naruni book or Phase World and/or Sourcebook, i think, but im not concerned enough about the topic to go looking at the moment) that the GM should consider corporate tech at least two times as good as what they sell and provides an example of doubling the range and/or damage of traditional weapons and giving them to Uteni traders and other corporate reps.

I suppose part of the explanation to justify canon Triax progression may just be that while they were facing an existential threat, they also found that, like in the 3G, their gear was "good enough" for long stretches of their history. They lost Berlin in 2150, then reclaimed it in 2245. Zurich was taken by the gargoyles in 2262 but, of course, was part of Switzerland pre-cataclysm, and I've always been a bit unclear on if it was ever part of the NGR after the cataclysm. In fact, Triax 1 makes it sound like the NGR didn't really feel like it was under much of an existential threat until 2289 / 3 PA when they started the Bloody Campaign, after which they felt like it was mission accomplished. Even then when the Gargoyles counter-attacked in 38 PA most of the fighting was outside the NGR. A reading of Triax 1 pages 13-17 sure doesn't make it sound like they felt all that worried about faltering until around 88 PA.

Thats fair enough. It holds a little less water, IMO, than the 3G explanation, but its not out of the realm of possibility.

Id have taken the story in a different direction to explain the discrepancy, like.. when the NGR lost a few cities early int he Dark Age they lost all the research and development facilities Triax had and only had existing factories with no planning, R&D, or other facilities, and it took them a while to recapture those facilities, setting them back 100+ years.

So, for the early part of the NGR, they had the capability to produce advanced (for the time) Triax products, but didn't have the tech base/records to create new things until they recaptured facilities and reclaimed the files.

Going back to the 3G, also keep in mind that it's starting to ramp up again - both the CCW and TGE are fairly "new" societies (less than 1000 years old) and now that they are gearing up to go to war wth one another, tech is back to advancing fairly quickly (see the new Black Eagle fighter compared to the Scorpion, the breakthrough on larger ship engines making Dreadnaughts possible, etc).

Either way, its mostly ignorable, unlike a lot of the other setting holes.

[jaymz]

Except they did not come on to world scene until after 2050 not 2021 (they were near bankruptcy and had only minor successes even being surpassed by other manufacturers for the claim to fame with hover cars, thats hardly being on the world scene by any stretch) so for all practical purposes for this thread and for in universe mdc does not exist as we know it until 2050. The statement in the part about 2021 was a foreshadowing statement of things to come which is explained in the 2050 section. Nowhere does it say they've been working on it for 30 years.

But whatever, believe whatever interpretation you want.

[jaymz]

It does say after 30 years the company achieves the success the founder was trying to attain.

[dreicunan]

Thats fair enough. It holds a little less water, IMO, than the 3G explanation, but its not out of the realm of possibility.

Id have taken the story in a different direction to explain the discrepancy, like.. when the NGR lost a few cities early int he Dark Age they lost all the research and development facilities Triax had and only had existing factories with no planning, R&D, or other facilities, and it took them a while to recapture those facilities, setting them back 100+ years.

So, for the early part of the NGR, they had the capability to produce advanced (for the time) Triax products, but didn't have the tech base/records to create new things until they recaptured facilities and reclaimed the files.

Your approach is actually pretty easy to align with canon material considering that the timeline in Triax 2 of important dates for the NGR includes the construction of the Passau Research Komplex, started in 26 PA and completed in 28 PA.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Except they did not come on to world scene until after 2050 not 2021 (they were near bankruptcy and had only minor successes even being surpassed by other manufacturers for the claim to fame with hover cars, thats hardly being on the world scene by any stretch)

Except that isn't what it says.

It says, in the year 2021, that they came onto the world scene inventing MDC steel.

so for all practical purposes for this thread and for in universe mdc does not exist as we know it until 2050. The statement in the part about 2021 was a foreshadowing statement of things to come which is explained in the 2050 section. Nowhere does it say they've been working on it for 30 years.

Uhh... what?

Then it happened, Triax metallurgy researched had been working on a new super-alloy for almost 30 years

So.. it says EXACTLY that. That they were working on it for nearly 30 years (2021-2050 is 29 years.. nearly 30).

But whatever, believe whatever interpretation you want.

I dont need to interpret anything. Im reading the plain text on the page.

You're the one trying to say it says something other than what it says.

Page 10 says, unequivocally, that they created MDC steel in 2021. Page 70 reinforces this - "at first, they succeeded in creating ultra-thick and ultra-durable metal that was also ultra-heavy (a cubic foot of the stuff weighed nearly three tons!)". So initial MDC steel was basically useless. You couldn't use it for armor except on perhaps the biggest tanks (not ships or anything that flies, for certain), and you couldn't build buildings out of it (theyd never stand, too heavy).

Then page 69 says they made a breakthrough after nearly 30 years, and goes on on page 70 to say that they improved the process by using synthetic metals and molecular bonding (in 2050), and sold this technology all over the world.

Thats what it says. Im not interpreting anything. Its right there, in plain English.