Anti-Juicer Spell, or Detoxing the Hard Way

[Mack]

So what happens if a particularly devious mage casts the spell Giant (BoM, p133) on a Juicer? It expressly states that "any armor or clothing will be shredded." Also keep in mind there is no savings throw.

Does the Biocomp and impants survive the spell? At best all the external tubing will be ripped apart. At worst the entire system is trashed. Either way the Juicer is suddenly deprived of his fix.

And if our devious mage really feels snarky, he can cast the spell, wait one action then cancel it. Poof! Now the Juicer is back to normal size, naked, unarmed, and in withdrawl.

[Damian Magecraft]

So what happens if a particularly devious mage casts the spell Giant (BoM, p133) on a Juicer? It expressly states that "any armor or clothing will be shredded." Also keep in mind there is no savings throw.

Does the Biocomp and impants survive the spell? At best all the external tubing will be ripped apart. At worst the entire system is trashed. Either way the Juicer is suddenly deprived of his fix.

And if our devious mage really feels snarky, he can cast the spell, wait one action then cancel it. Poof! Now the Juicer is back to normal size, naked, unarmed, and in withdrawl.

While the thought is nice...
I doubt the jucier is going to go into instant with drawl. There will be more than enough drugs and toxins in his system to trash the mage that cut off his "fix". so while you "may" (jury still out on this one) harm him in the long term on the short term... well... most likely time to get a new mage.

[Mack]

While the thought is nice...
I doubt the jucier is going to go into instant with drawl. There will be more than enough drugs and toxins in his system to trash the mage that cut off his "fix". so while you "may" (jury still out on this one) harm him in the long term on the short term... well... most likely time to get a new mage.

I disagree. Even if the Juicer has enough in his system (which is a GM's call) he's naked, unarmed, and facing a prepared mage.

[Shark_Force]

While the thought is nice...
I doubt the jucier is going to go into instant with drawl. There will be more than enough drugs and toxins in his system to trash the mage that cut off his "fix". so while you "may" (jury still out on this one) harm him in the long term on the short term... well... most likely time to get a new mage.

I disagree. Even if the Juicer has enough in his system (which is a GM's call) he's naked, unarmed, and facing a prepared mage.

yeah, i'm in agreement that the mage would probably win... but it wouldn't force instant detox, that's for sure.

but you better be prepared to end the fight soon, because that is gonna be one really angry juicer (replacing the harness etc isn't going to be cheap)

[taalismn]

If that's ALL the Mage has going, while he's busy gloating over how clever he is, the Juicer has enough buzz in his system to beat the snot out of the annoying little prig.

Being beaten up by a naked guy you thought you had at your mercy? That's a reputation destroyer right there.

[Damian Magecraft]

While the thought is nice...
I doubt the jucier is going to go into instant with drawl. There will be more than enough drugs and toxins in his system to trash the mage that cut off his "fix". so while you "may" (jury still out on this one) harm him in the long term on the short term... well... most likely time to get a new mage.

I disagree. Even if the Juicer has enough in his system (which is a GM's call) he's naked, unarmed, and facing a prepared mage.

Normally I would agree that the mage would win. Assuming it was run correctly... But considering the numerous complaints over the years on how weak mages and magic are I seriously doubt the mage would be run correctly. (this is in no way a slight against your abilities, its just in my experience I have only seen a small hand full on the boards who comprehend how a mage and magic works.) Plus Giant would only damage the clothing, gear, armor, and any weapons the Juicer may have had in his hand at the time. (how many of your players rely on just one weapon?)

[Grell]

You could rule the biocomp and harness are magically made proportional to the now giant juicer and reverted back with him to original size. The logic of the OP's post would mean a mage could basically instantly obliterate or disassemble a partial conversion borg as well.

Of course the flavor of the idea has a very Akira-esque feel to it that I like, so I'm on the fence as to how I'd rule on the matter.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd say the bio-comp would be fine, but the drug harness would be shredded, which wouldn't have any immediate impact.

[Mack]

Mostly I started this as an amusing "what if."

Gryphon raises a valid point regarding balance, and that the spell isn't intended to be offensive in nature.

There are a couple of mitigating points:
1) It's a level 10 spell, requiring 2 melee actions
2) It's range is limited to touch.

So the mage has to get close to the target, and not get whacked while casting the spell. Be that as it may, Gyrphon is right. As written it's horribly broken.

Grell is also right that it raises a good question regarding partial conversion borgs.

Now if you really want to abuse this spell, combine it with Power Bolt into a TW rifle. Now you can snipe people with the spell.

[Shark_Force]

Grell is also right that it raises a good question regarding partial conversion borgs.

Now if you really want to abuse this spell, combine it with Power Bolt into a TW rifle. Now you can snipe people with the spell.

nah, we can do better than that. combine it with second sight, and we can start talking

(man, if we're not careful, we're gonna wind up creating the "explosive spell" metamagic feat from D&D 3.x in rifts...)

[Mack]

I am currently leaning on Mack's position here. I find that it can be interpreted in this way. Though, I do have a query about the bio-comp, . . . is the bio-comp really going to "shred"? Because there is enough slack on the tubes for the injection collars/cuffs, as I call them, to accommodate the increase in length and height of the growth of the spell, after all, it's got to have the controlled slacking in order for it to be flexible, with the body of the Juicer. It's the injection collars/cuffs that will snap open, and then the bio-comp, along with everything else, will just fall onto the ground.

There may be slack in the system, but I doubt there's enough to handle 10 feet of growth.

And as a general statement, I think I'd house-rule this so that the spell only works on willing participants. That keeps it in line with the intent.

[Grell]

I don't see a problem with using the spell offensively, just using it to separate the victim from artificial 'parts' that have become part of them. Though a houserule to make the spell useable on willing participants only is a good call, but maybe just give the unwilling a +4 to save instead?

[CyCo]

Lets say, the spell works and the harness is trashed. It says nothing about carried equipment. So the mage works his magic, the Juicer becomes huge and ruins his clothing & harness. Then the mage cancels the spell and the Juicer returns to his normal size. He either still has his carried equipment in his hands or it's dropped somewhere near his feet. And since this spell requires touch (without TW), that could mean a vibroblade or two. And given that the spell is level 10, then maybe even a ruin weapon.

As for the instant detox, I'd rule against that. There are enough chemicals in a Juicers system and blood stream to kill a giant, at the very least I'd let him last a number of days to give the player a chance of getting a new bio comp/harness (probably a blackmarket deal, indenturing the player for at least one campaign arc).


8]

[DBX]

As for the instant detox, I'd rule against that. There are enough chemicals in a Juicers system and blood stream to kill a giant.

this is how our gaming group rp'ed it, when juicer's tubing, bio comp, harness damaged, destroyed or ripped out

i can't remember if this is an official canon rule, or just our gaming groups houserule

we used to game this as the juicer suffering from external and internal blood loss. taking severe internal and external damage. drug harness, bio comp needs full replacement as soon as possible

[Shark_Force]

as i understood it, the harness is actually just that, a harness. you could, for example, take it off to go to bed at night.

if it was something the juicer literally needed to wear 24/7 just to avoid instantly suffering from detox, it wouldn't be something you could remove and put back on.

[GaredBattlespike]

Greetings!

I believe that the only way to FORCIBLY detox a Juicer is with Psionics, not a spell. It would take using:
1) Biomanipulation: Paralysis with the extra 30 ISP spent to sexteple (x 6) the duration (see RUE for details) to an averrage of 60 MINUTES/ 1 HOUR !!!

2) Telemechanics to know how to remove the Juicer Harness. Then do it.

3) Psychic Surgury to remove the Bio-Comp.

4) Psychic Purification to remove the Drugs from the Juicer's system.

5) Resist Fatigue to run far, far away...

NOTICE: I never said it was the BEST idea, just that it was possible-especially as only 25% of all Juicers have any Psionics, thus a better that 15+ Saving Throw.

Good Gaming, GaredBattlespike

[Killer Cyborg]

We had a Juicer end up with The Eternity Sword, a powerful runesword forged by the Old Ones themselves.
One of the powers is making the bearer impervious to poison.
Which forced him into detox.
Which caused him to commit suicide.

Long story short, we brought him back to life, but now he's an elf.

[Killer Cyborg]

as i understood it, the harness is actually just that, a harness. you could, for example, take it off to go to bed at night.

if it was something the juicer literally needed to wear 24/7 just to avoid instantly suffering from detox, it wouldn't be something you could remove and put back on.

It's mentioned in the books that just removing the harness won't do it; the juicer's body will produce a lot or all of the necessary chemicals on its own for a while.

[Balabanto]

While the thought is nice...
I doubt the jucier is going to go into instant with drawl. There will be more than enough drugs and toxins in his system to trash the mage that cut off his "fix". so while you "may" (jury still out on this one) harm him in the long term on the short term... well... most likely time to get a new mage.

I disagree. Even if the Juicer has enough in his system (which is a GM's call) he's naked, unarmed, and facing a prepared mage.

yeah, i'm in agreement that the mage would probably win... but it wouldn't force instant detox, that's for sure.

but you better be prepared to end the fight soon, because that is gonna be one really angry juicer (replacing the harness etc isn't going to be cheap)

Carpet of Adhesion. Run. Wait.

[Balabanto]

The problem here is the wording of the Giant spell, not whether or not the spell takes out the juicer. Use of Giant as an attack spell has been discussed among my group for years. No one has ever actually tried it, but the mechanics are there. The problem isn't that this spell kills the juicer.

The problem is that this spell kills ANYONE.

Clearly, this wasn't the intent of the designers. It's my contention that if you want to use Giant in a manner that is hostile, your GM has several options.

1) He can allow a saving throw. This is probably the simplest way, but, if you fail, the same thing happens, and we all know how the ball has swung against hard "Save or Die" effects in gaming.

2) The spell fails. Criminal misuse of authorial intention should not be rewarded with success.

3) Ban the spell. It isn't particularly useful anyway.

4) Rewrite the spell to read "Willing Target."

All of these are fine. None of them are game breaking. Clearly, the designers didn't intend for people to use a buffing spell to kill everyone in Rifts. That's my take on it.

[Shark_Force]

While the thought is nice...
I doubt the jucier is going to go into instant with drawl. There will be more than enough drugs and toxins in his system to trash the mage that cut off his "fix". so while you "may" (jury still out on this one) harm him in the long term on the short term... well... most likely time to get a new mage.

I disagree. Even if the Juicer has enough in his system (which is a GM's call) he's naked, unarmed, and facing a prepared mage.

yeah, i'm in agreement that the mage would probably win... but it wouldn't force instant detox, that's for sure.

but you better be prepared to end the fight soon, because that is gonna be one really angry juicer (replacing the harness etc isn't going to be cheap)

Carpet of Adhesion. Run. Wait.

he's standing up, and while his armor is toast, he was never made to drop his weapons, nor are they inherently destroyed by the spell. and of course, if you leave him in giant form, preventing him from using his weapons effectively, he probably has enough strength that carpet of adhesion is only slowing him down...

[Damian Magecraft]

While the thought is nice...
I doubt the jucier is going to go into instant with drawl. There will be more than enough drugs and toxins in his system to trash the mage that cut off his "fix". so while you "may" (jury still out on this one) harm him in the long term on the short term... well... most likely time to get a new mage.

I disagree. Even if the Juicer has enough in his system (which is a GM's call) he's naked, unarmed, and facing a prepared mage.

yeah, i'm in agreement that the mage would probably win... but it wouldn't force instant detox, that's for sure.

but you better be prepared to end the fight soon, because that is gonna be one really angry juicer (replacing the harness etc isn't going to be cheap)

Carpet of Adhesion. Run. Wait.

he's standing up, and while his armor is toast, he was never made to drop his weapons, nor are they inherently destroyed by the spell. and of course, if you leave him in giant form, preventing him from using his weapons effectively, he probably has enough strength that carpet of adhesion is only slowing him down...

the CoA will hold the "giant" regardless of ps type or size. as long as the target is in the area of the carpet he is stuck.

[Dog_O_War]

I don't really see how this is an "Anti-Juicer Spell."

First, you have to touch the juicer; he gets auto-dodge, or (and this is the bad part for you) a parry attempt. With the parry attempt, you will* lose your hand as he's going to cut it off with a vibro-axe or plasma-chainsaw or some other crazy juicer weapon.

Second*, touch-spells require a flesh to flesh or flesh/fabric to flesh/fabric contact; it cannot be through your MDC armour to their MDC armour. If he's wearing environmental armour, this spell won't work against him at all. (R:UE pg. 187-88)

Third, you aren't likely able to cast anything in melee against him, for this reason: Giant is a tenth-level spell, and as such, cannot be cast while under a "full-press attack", also known as being in melee with a juicer. (R:UE pg. 189-90)

Fourth, If you did get it off, it would be the last thing you ever did, as now you have a juicer with a few melees of drugs left in him (I can't remember the exact numbers, but the drugs remain in effect for a short period even after their bio-comp is inadvertently removed), that has at least a 33 supernatural PS and an additional attack per melee.

This actually seems like an anti-mage spell when you try and cast it on a juicer

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE 80

The removal of the bio-comp system is critical, because even without the drug harness, the system stimulates the body to create natural hormones and chemicals to unnatural and ultimately deadly proportions.

Nothing there indicates that there would be anything like an instant effect. It'd take a while.

[Dog_O_War]

If there are rules dictating how long a harness/bio-comp deprived Juicer remains on the juice, show me where, I haven't seen them yet, and I would like to read them.

The rules listing what happens when the drug-harness is removed is in Juicer Uprising, though I cannot tell you what page as I don't own that book. A friend of mine does, so it will take me a while to extract the exact paragraph detailing the effects from him (likely when I see him next).

Unless someone else here has the book and is willing to chime in here.

[ZorValachan]

RUE 80

The removal of the bio-comp system is critical, because even without the drug harness, the system stimulates the body to create natural hormones and chemicals to unnatural and ultimately deadly proportions.

Nothing there indicates that there would be anything like an instant effect. It'd take a while.

I mostly agree with what you have posted on the subject, but was thinking while he is a giant, would his mass, vs. the chemicals in his body become disproportionate, making him basically a non-juicer? If a human needs a number of cc, lets call it Y, of chemicals for his build and now he is 3x bigger, would he now need much more (because he grew in height, width, and length) that the Ycc he has in his body now is just not to keep him (or even start him in giant form) juiced. The harness and new drugs are shredded/gone, and his bio-comp, while inside, is set for his human sized form, so would just be calling his body to produce an amount of chemicals/hormones to keep a human, not a giant, juiced...

Just some thoughts

[gelidus]

RUE 80

The removal of the bio-comp system is critical, because even without the drug harness, the system stimulates the body to create natural hormones and chemicals to unnatural and ultimately deadly proportions.

Nothing there indicates that there would be anything like an instant effect. It'd take a while.

I mostly agree with what you have posted on the subject, but was thinking while he is a giant, would his mass, vs. the chemicals in his body become disproportionate, making him basically a non-juicer? If a human needs a number of cc, lets call it Y, of chemicals for his build and now he is 3x bigger, would he now need much more (because he grew in height, width, and length) that the Ycc he has in his body now is just not to keep him (or even start him in giant form) juiced. The harness and new drugs are shredded/gone, and his bio-comp, while inside, is set for his human sized form, so would just be calling his body to produce an amount of chemicals/hormones to keep a human, not a giant, juiced...

Just some thoughts

Something everyone is forgetting is that the juicer is more then just the comp hoses and needles. They are also infused with nanites that is some of the more advanced tech of rifts earth. ( Juicer uprising) Seems to me that the nanites would help with the all of a sudden being huge problem....

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE 80

The removal of the bio-comp system is critical, because even without the drug harness, the system stimulates the body to create natural hormones and chemicals to unnatural and ultimately deadly proportions.

Nothing there indicates that there would be anything like an instant effect. It'd take a while.

I mostly agree with what you have posted on the subject, but was thinking while he is a giant, would his mass, vs. the chemicals in his body become disproportionate, making him basically a non-juicer? If a human needs a number of cc, lets call it Y, of chemicals for his build and now he is 3x bigger, would he now need much more (because he grew in height, width, and length) that the Ycc he has in his body now is just not to keep him (or even start him in giant form) juiced. The harness and new drugs are shredded/gone, and his bio-comp, while inside, is set for his human sized form, so would just be calling his body to produce an amount of chemicals/hormones to keep a human, not a giant, juiced...

Just some thoughts

Magic. When he's made bigger, so are the drugs in his system.

[Shark_Force]

the CoA will hold the "giant" regardless of ps type or size. as long as the target is in the area of the carpet he is stuck.

weird. i'm not sure what spell i was thinking of (i'm pretty sure there's one somewhere that if you're strong enough you can actually essentially just walk around with parts of the ground stuck to you). regardless, he's still not been forced to drop his weapons, you're within melee range, and he's angry

you're either prepared and are going to finish the fight, or you're screwed, there is very little middle ground

[Damian Magecraft]

While the thought is nice...
I doubt the jucier is going to go into instant with drawl. There will be more than enough drugs and toxins in his system to trash the mage that cut off his "fix". so while you "may" (jury still out on this one) harm him in the long term on the short term... well... most likely time to get a new mage.

I disagree. Even if the Juicer has enough in his system (which is a GM's call) he's naked, unarmed, and facing a prepared mage.

yeah, i'm in agreement that the mage would probably win... but it wouldn't force instant detox, that's for sure.

but you better be prepared to end the fight soon, because that is gonna be one really angry juicer (replacing the harness etc isn't going to be cheap)

Carpet of Adhesion. Run. Wait.

he's standing up, and while his armor is toast, he was never made to drop his weapons, nor are they inherently destroyed by the spell. and of course, if you leave him in giant form, preventing him from using his weapons effectively, he probably has enough strength that carpet of adhesion is only slowing him down...

the CoA will hold the "giant" regardless of ps type or size. as long as the target is in the area of the carpet he is stuck.

Yes he is stuck. And even if you save, you are still stuck. I have only played a magic user one time, and this was tone of the most valueable spells he had.

I have only ever had one mage "abuse" the CoA spell.
I as a player find the spell to be a bit chezzy if over used.

Using the giant spell as a combat spell is dangerous (3 actions to cast plus requires touch).
It is better served as the buff spell it reads to be.

[Mack]

Using the giant spell as a combat spell is dangerous (3 actions to cast plus requires touch).

Two actions, not three.

[Damian Magecraft]

Using the giant spell as a combat spell is dangerous (3 actions to cast plus requires touch).

Two actions, not three.

Whoops ( ) right... level 6 - 10 is 2 actions.
i knew that.

[Shark_Force]

mind you, that's 2 actions while the juicer can probably see and hear you, recognises you're casting a spell, and is likely to assume you're attacking him.

and then you're standing next to the (angry) juicer, having just taken your action... assuming you've somehow managed to surprise him in the first place, you now have to beat the juicer's initiative in order to get your carpet of adhesion (or other spell of choice) cast before the juicer pulps you. and for that one action, the juicer is probably also a giant.

[Mack]

Using the giant spell as a combat spell is dangerous (3 actions to cast plus requires touch).

Two actions, not three.

Whoops ( ) right... level 6 - 10 is 2 actions.
i knew that.

No worries.

[azazel1024]

So the drugs are poisons now???

The way Palladium has their stuff written poisons and save vs. poisons are almost explicitly things that will damage you.

Metabolism, strength enhancement, quick heal and pain reduction drugs don't fall in to this catagory. Sure a Juicer dies early, but that is from being wrung out running at, what is for a human, 17/10ths all the time.

The bio comp wouldn't be damaged. The way various magic is written (when not broken) indicates that magic generally does not effect implants, cybernetic or bionic, in any way.

The drug harness probably would go sploodie, but it wouldn't instantly detox the juicer. Even if they didn't get a juice, they'd still have increased strength, endurance, hit points and SDC and most of the 9 yards. They'd just now be bigger and stronger.

Even if they went full detox instantly, it wouldn't mean they are suddenly weak or back to being average joe. Someone taking massive amounts of steroids who stops suddenly doesn't instantly lose 30lbs of muscle mass in seconds.

Chemicals in the human body tend to have half lives of anything from around 3-5 minutes for really short acting agents (such as epinephrine/Adrenalin), up to around 24hrs or so for some really long acting stuff. Other stuff isn't half life based, and is strictly metabolic (IE Alcohol, which is eliminated at a rate of 1oz per hour from a male and 1oz per 2hrs for a female). Caffeine has a half life of around 5 hours, acetamenaphin a bit less than 4hrs, ibuprofin closer to 6hrs, etc.

Just some examples, but even with the juicer's hypermetabolism most of the drugs that turn a juicer in to a juicer are going to be in his system for minutes at least, and probably hours for some. A few such as endorphins to kill the pain and adrenalin to amp him up either wouldn't have been injected yet, as these are "combat" drugs that aren't in his/her system constantly, or else they'd likely be cleared out in the matter of a couple of melee rounds with the enhanced meatbolism. However, these and a lot of others can be released by the juicers body through natural means and the biocomp. Probably in lower quanities and not for as long as the drug harness supplementation could provide, but probably enough for a few minutes of combat at least.

Also, you wouldn't detox right away, even with the chemicals out of your system. You don't detox if you are off drugs for a few hours, even if they are out of your system. Now I am not saying you could go says as an addict without hitting withdrawl, cause you can't, but a few hours being completely cleaned out wouldn't set you in to horrible withdrawl.

Again biocomp comes in here, likely it does and can naturally stimulate the human body to produce above normal levels of the hormones, etc that do a lot of what it takes to make a juicer. It might be as much lower levels than what the juicer is used to with the drug harness, but probably high enough to survive at least for a few days before starting to hit withdrawl really badly, and certainly enough to keep from "turn mundane" overnight. Probably would take a couple of weeks to start losing strength, endurance, etc from the reduce drug levels. Though you'd probably also be rocking some whicked penalties from a "soft" withdrawl before you'd be losing actual muscle mass, etc (vomiting, shakes, headaches, vertigo, fatigue, etc).
-Matt

PS I also meant to add that even regenerating 2d6mdc a melee/minute doesn't mean that the character is going to purge stuff from his/her system that aren't actually poisons...and even if he does, probably not in seconds since a lot lasts hours in a normal human. Maybe a minute or two if the healing would even purge it. Not instantly.