Am I the only person who thinks the WI-GL8 is broken?

[Prole]

I might be super super wrong here, but I think it's pretty broken for this design to have so many options, and be able to deal so much damage, at this pretty effective price point.

I'm frankly surprised any other shotguns get used at all, I'm surprised any other grenade launchers get used at all, I'm surprised any close quarters MDC weapons are used at all.

How is anything competitive with this in the game? Why would anyone buy any other design if they could get this? How would Big Bore shotguns even sell?

[jaymz]

On the shotgun side it only uses sdc shotgun shells in its own description....thus why they are dirt cheap.

As for grenades....you get ten shots then have to swap the drum....which ain't small so you aren't carrying 4 or 5 of them around and MD grenades are not cheap. Had to go look at the NG GL for prices (because why list the cost of ammo for a non standard weapon in its description right?). Frags are 200 per so your drum costs 2000 credits off the hop. Armour Piercing are 350 per so that's 3500 per drum. For all of a 10 shots of something you can only carry a limited number of reloads for (maybe 2 extra drums tops with all your other gear for a regular trooper or any human sized fighters just due to size not necessarily weight).

Now the Big Bore model can use regular shotgun shells of any kind versus what seems to be specific one for the WI one. It does less damage per round and has less range but if it's for in close combat 300ft or 800ft really isn't relevant....the Big Bore is also cheaper and has an 18 round capacity so 80% more shots per drum each round is also almost half the cost at 120 per or 2160 per drum (and being less damage this makes sense). That's only 160 credits extra for 80% more shots in addition to the fact that the Big Bore also imparts the knockdown potential that the WI model does not. I'd also almost guarantee it is probably easier to obtain Big Bore Weapons than WI ones outside of cities of larger outposts and such, as well as their ammo. The Black Market is really only the Black Market within the borders of known Kingdoms. Outside those borders they are just THE market to get anything. I'd think they'd push their own equipment before anyone else's even if offering other makes and models.

This analysis alone makes me think that yeah you may be over thinking it here or may be too focused on the WI model to not see the advantages of the most comparable model.

[Orin J.]

i think one of the things you're overlooking is that the grenade launcher might be able to fire shotgun shells, it can't load them into the same drum magazine as the grenades, and it can't single load anything, meaning you have to change out the entire drum cassette to switch over ammo type. and then there's the matter of cost...

Had to go look at the NG GL for prices (because why list the cost of ammo for a non standard weapon in its description right?). Frags are 200 per so your drum costs 2000 credits off the hop. Armour Piercing are 350 per so that's 3500 per drum. For all of a 10 shots of something you can only carry a limited number of reloads for (maybe 2 extra drums tops with all your other gear for a regular trooper or any human sized fighters just due to size not necessarily weight).

your math is incorrect, because these are firing rifle grenades not hand grenades. the cost of the grenade rounds is listed in the WI-GL80 weapon below it (which means the original one in mercs went without prices for how many years?) and fragmentation rounds are 300 while armor piercing is 500. we can dummy up the disposable drum itself since the same book also lists the base cost of normal ammo like shotgun shells in the 30-60 range for 100 so the 32 credits a drum is probably 20-22 for the ammo and another 10 creds of disposable plastic (so negligible), so the pre-loaded magazines are 3010 for a pack of frag rounds and 5010 for armor piercing.

on the plus side, checking mercs for prices they didn't have let me know that the -GL8 and it's sibling launchers are using the standard 40mm rounds from the looks of them (and that northern gun are using their own caliber of rounds because of COURSE they need to be propitiatory...) so you can use the SDC explosives later in the book GAW produces, which is only 90 credits to fill a drum- although you'd probably need to pay for however much a reusable drum is at that point....

[Prole]

The previous version of the grenade launcher, had a penalty to use, but the smaller one that should have more recoil doesn't have this problem, despite it being 7 pounds instead of 20. On top of that, the Game Master guide lists MDC shotgun rounds that have stupid high damage for cost. Those also make a lot of shotguns, Big Bore weapons, and lasers completely redundant.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Here is an extreme VP: ALL weapons that were not in the RMB are broken due to power creep.

Here is another Extreme VP: Rifts is Broken due to MD/MDC.

(note: I prefer to play The HU and PF games.)
footnote: the RMB is not the RUE book.

[Shark_Force]

Here is an extreme VP: ALL weapons that were not in the RMB are broken due to power creep.

nah, that definitely isn't true.

RMB guns could mostly be used with "standard" rate of fire, which is way more powerful than what has replaced it. the NG-57 was a pistol that could do 3d6x10 damage if you emptied the clip. the NG-P7 could do 1d4x100 damage in the same situation. both of them have been significantly reduced in power by not using the RMB rules for rate of fire. (and yes, I realize it had a higher action cost. but I also realize that dealing 10 actions worth of damage on your first action at a cost of only 2 actions, with a 1-action reload time before you can do it again, leaves the weapons still being substantially more powerful).

[Warshield73]

Here is an extreme VP: ALL weapons that were not in the RMB are broken due to power creep.

nah, that definitely isn't true.

RMB guns could mostly be used with "standard" rate of fire, which is way more powerful than what has replaced it. the NG-57 was a pistol that could do 3d6x10 damage if you emptied the clip. the NG-P7 could do 1d4x100 damage in the same situation. both of them have been significantly reduced in power by not using the RMB rules for rate of fire. (and yes, I realize it had a higher action cost. but I also realize that dealing 10 actions worth of damage on your first action at a cost of only 2 actions, with a 1-action reload time before you can do it again, leaves the weapons still being substantially more powerful).

I had forgotten all about this. When we used RMB most of my players ended up with C-12 rifles and the damage was so outrageous we had create one of our first house rules to limit them.

In general there is power creep though. I mean I love WB 31: Triax 2 but my goodness that is a power sprint.

[Orin J.]

The previous version of the grenade launcher, had a penalty to use, but the smaller one that should have more recoil doesn't have this problem, despite it being 7 pounds instead of 20. On top of that, the Game Master guide lists MDC shotgun rounds that have stupid high damage for cost. Those also make a lot of shotguns, Big Bore weapons, and lasers completely redundant.

it wasn't a recoil problem, it was a penalty because it was heavy. that means that in spite of it being the exact same size the managed to more than halve the weight somehow. maybe they used SDC materials?

also lasers and shotguns aren't redundant, as they're cheaper and many are less bulky. wait, does the weight factor in the ammo drums? that might explain some things. in imply the designer was being shifty with the rules.....

[Prole]

I just realized something, if the Big Bore shotguns accept shotgun shells, then that means an MDC shotgun with minor tweaks might take Big Bore ammo.

Might have stupid recoil in a weapon this light though.

[torjones]

Here is an extreme VP: ALL weapons that were not in the RMB are broken due to power creep.

Can you give an example of the creep you're referring to? Because I don't remember many units more powerful than the glitterboy. the NG-P7 remains the most powerful, cost effective hand held energy rifle in the game, and the number of GMs that won't let you start at level one with one are rare. The number of vehicles that make better mobile bases for an adventuring party than the Behemoth can be counted on one hand, like the hover hospital from Triax, so that might make a valid case for "power creep", but I'm not sure what else might.

[Prole]

Here is an extreme VP: ALL weapons that were not in the RMB are broken due to power creep.

Can you give an example of the creep you're referring to? Because I don't remember many units more powerful than the glitterboy. the NG-P7 remains the most powerful, cost effective hand held energy rifle in the game, and the number of GMs that won't let you start at level one with one are rare. The number of vehicles that make better mobile bases for an adventuring party than the Behemoth can be counted on one hand, like the hover hospital from Triax, so that might make a valid case for "power creep", but I'm not sure what else might.

The South American book had to be retroactively nerfed, the Special Forces OCC is trash and the Paratrooper OCC from Merc Ops is way better.

[torjones]

Here is an extreme VP: ALL weapons that were not in the RMB are broken due to power creep.

Can you give an example of the creep you're referring to?

The South American book had to be retroactively nerfed, the Special Forces OCC is trash and the Paratrooper OCC from Merc Ops is way better.

The only nerfing I remember from SA1 is the Raptor which had a misprint of 6d6x10 damage from the leap kick. Otherwise, when compared to items from the RMB, they are equivalent or inferior. The OCCs are, for the most part, specialists, not general improvements on the classes from RMB.

I think what happened with SA1 and SA2 for the most part is that they somehow got this reputation for being OP that was largely undeserved. Either that or I've never even seen a first printing that contained those over powered classes. I have discovered, however, that the OCCs from the various books get played far less frequently than the RMB classes, something that would not happen if the later classes were, over all, substantially better. It may be your opinion that the Paratrooper is better than the Special Forces OCC, but that's opinion. I'm sure that there will even be situations where it's quantifiably true, but then the reverse would also wind up being true as well.

While I will whole heartedly admit that I think the Neo-Human is quantifiably better than the Mind Melter in nearly every conceivable situation, Drewkitty specifically mentioned weapons not in the RMB being the thing that he thought broken. I was wrong to have even mentioned the glitterboy's armor, but I thought it somewhat relevant.

I have done a somewhat extensive analysis of the various weapons throughout the Rifts world, though not exhaustive unfortunately. While Laser Pistols and Laser Rifles do experience some creep, Ion weapons largely drop out, the best plasma rifle/cannon is improved by the CWC, Railguns are roughly equivalent for quite some time, and the king of man-portable weapons remains the NG-P7, even after all these years. So, if we're talking about hand held weapons, the best, imo, remains the NG-P7, while the Boomgun remains the most powerful power armor weapon and few weapons on larger vehicles ever exceed its damage.

[Mack]

Regarding SA, please see the note on page 112 of the RGMG: "15. Balancing South America."

[Killer Cyborg]

Here is an extreme VP: ALL weapons that were not in the RMB are broken due to power creep.

Can you give an example of the creep you're referring to? Because I don't remember many units more powerful than the glitterboy. the NG-P7 remains the most powerful, cost effective hand held energy rifle in the game, and the number of GMs that won't let you start at level one with one are rare. The number of vehicles that make better mobile bases for an adventuring party than the Behemoth can be counted on one hand, like the hover hospital from Triax, so that might make a valid case for "power creep", but I'm not sure what else might.

Fair question. I'm not Drewkitty, but I'll try to give a good answer.


Okay, so an important distinction to make is that Power Creep is about new updates to a game/setting making older parts of the game underpowered or obsolete, and that this applies at EVERY level of the game, not just the high-end.
When the Vagabond OCC got updated to have MDC armor at creation, that's power creep, even though other OCCs start with even better gear. What makes it power creep is that this new version of the Vagabond is significantly more powerful (i.e., capable of taking MD and surviving) than it was before (dead at even 1 MD in most case).
The NG-P7 might arguably still be king of the battlefield*, BUT take a look at the pawns for a moment instead of the Kings.
In the RMB, the average damage for a laser pistol was somewhere between 1d6 and 2d4 MD.
Over time, though, new laser pistols were introduced that could inflict 2d6 MD per shot, making the older weapons underpowered or obsolete.
That's TWICE the firepower in some cases, like Wilk's.
Moreover, 2d6 MD was the average damage for laser RIFLES in the RMB. So you have newer laser pistols matching the damage of earlier laser rifles.
Again, that's power creep, because older parts of the game are being rendered obsolete or underpowered by the newer material.
The fact that there are other weapons that are more powerful doesn't affect things here, because the Boom Gun (for example) is not a laser pistol. It fills a different role, and it doesn't make other weapons obsolete or underpowered. Same deal with the NG-P7.
Make sense?

*Let's look at the NG-P7 for a moment...
It's always been an effective high-damage energy rifle, a staple of the setting.
But very quickly its status as King was endangered by power creep, starting with the Wilk's 457 in SB1, which could fire up to 13 pulses at 1d6x10 MD per pulse, compared to the NG-P7's 8 single shots at 1d4x10 MD each.
The Wilk's 457 not only inflicts roughly 50% more damage per attack, but also can fire 5 more times (a 60%+ increase?).
Granted, the NG-P7 inflicts full damage to laser-resistant targets, and that helps even things out a bit... but it was pretty out matched in other ways early on.
Also compare the NG-P7's 1600' range to the Wilk's 457's 2000' range.
The 457 outperforms in most ways.
(Of course, another factor complicating comparisons is that the exact workings of many early guns is ultimately unclear. The NG-P7 was listed originally as a ROF of Standard, which indicated that it could use the burst/spray rules on page 34 of the RMB, BUT that's something that's always been argued over, and many people interpret differently.
Similarly, in the RGMG the NG-P7's damage was listed as 2d4x10 MD per shot, and that was later retracted as a typo, but many people still play with that damage.)
Now open up Juicer Uprising or the RGMG, and take a look at the FIWS (Forearm Integral Weapon System).
-The weapon weighs 5 lbs, compared to the NG-P7's 21 lbs. Keep in mind that 21 lbs is quite a lot for a rifle; that's in the range of belt-fed machine guns like the BAR, where most assault rifles weigh a lot less: the AR-15 weighs 7.9 lbs, and the heavy AK-47 weighs about 10.5 lbs: HALF the weight of an NG-P7.
-The FIWS has a range of 500' compared to the NG-P7's 1600', so the NG is the clear winner there.
-The FIWS has a damage of 5d6 MD per particle beam blast, BUT it can perform a dual blast for 1d6x10 MD, which gives it 50% more damage per attack than the NG-P7.
-The FIWS also has built-in vibro claws that do 3d6 MD (also keep in mind that vibro claws in the RMB only do 2d6 MD, so the FIWS does 50% more damage than the previous standard, another example of power creep).
-The FIWS can be used single-handed, which means that it can more easily be used Paired than NG-P7s. If you have paired FIWS, and you fire a dual blast from each weapon, that's 2d6x10 MD. If you use the Sharpshooting skill to be able to fire rifles single-handed, and you pick up two NG-P7s, you'll still only do 2d4x10 MD, roughly 33% less damage than paired FIWS.
-The FIWS has a payload of 30 single shots or 15 double shots. So even if you dual-blast every time you shoot, you'll still get 15 rounds compared to the NG-P7's 8 rounds: nearly twice as many shots.
-The FIWS costs CR 24,000. The NG-P7 costs 22,000. NOT enough of a price difference to really justify picking one over the other. They're basically the same price.

So with all these factors, I'd generally go for the FIWS in any situation where I was expecting combat to take place at 500', or where I expected to be able to close that distance in relatively safe and short order. Range is pretty much the ONLY advantage for the NG-P7 under most rule interpretations, and range isn't typically all that much of an advantage the way most people play, considering all the melee fighters out there. From what I can tell, realworld warfare typically sees combat occur at ranges of around 300' or less, and the FIWS has plenty of range for that kind of distance.
So while I wouldn't necessarily say that the NG-P7 is obsolete compared to the FIWS, I would definitely say that it's nowhere near the king that it once was. The FIWS makes the NG-P7 relatively less powerful and less useful.
That's power creep.

[Orin J.]

Here is an extreme VP: ALL weapons that were not in the RMB are broken due to power creep.

Can you give an example of the creep you're referring to? Because I don't remember many units more powerful than the glitterboy. the NG-P7 remains the most powerful, cost effective hand held energy rifle in the game, and the number of GMs that won't let you start at level one with one are rare. The number of vehicles that make better mobile bases for an adventuring party than the Behemoth can be counted on one hand, like the hover hospital from Triax, so that might make a valid case for "power creep", but I'm not sure what else might.

The South American book had to be retroactively nerfed, the Special Forces OCC is trash and the Paratrooper OCC from Merc Ops is way better.

this paratrooper OCC isn't in Merc Ops.... also what's wrong with the special forces OCC? it's got a massive bank of skill choices to make whatever you need.

[Killer Cyborg]

Isn't Paratrooper the one that's impervious to Horror Factor?
That's broken.

[The Beast]

Isn't Paratrooper the one that's impervious to Horror Factor?
That's broken.

Yes it is. And that's broken af.

[Mack]

-The FIWS can be used single-handed, which means that it can more easily be used Paired than NG-P7s. If you have paired FIWS, and you fire a dual blast from each weapon, that's 2d6x10 MD. If you use the Sharpshooting skill to be able to fire rifles single-handed, and you pick up two NG-P7s, you'll still only do 2d4x10 MD, roughly 33% less damage than paired FIWS.

See, now you've got me thinking of a gunslinger who uses a pair of FIWS.

[jaymz]

-The FIWS can be used single-handed, which means that it can more easily be used Paired than NG-P7s. If you have paired FIWS, and you fire a dual blast from each weapon, that's 2d6x10 MD. If you use the Sharpshooting skill to be able to fire rifles single-handed, and you pick up two NG-P7s, you'll still only do 2d4x10 MD, roughly 33% less damage than paired FIWS.

See, now you've got me thinking of a gunslinger who uses a pair of FIWS.

My juicer gunslinger with paired wilks 457s has a lot of fun....

[Giant2005]

-The FIWS can be used single-handed, which means that it can more easily be used Paired than NG-P7s. If you have paired FIWS, and you fire a dual blast from each weapon, that's 2d6x10 MD. If you use the Sharpshooting skill to be able to fire rifles single-handed, and you pick up two NG-P7s, you'll still only do 2d4x10 MD, roughly 33% less damage than paired FIWS.

See, now you've got me thinking of a gunslinger who uses a pair of FIWS.

My juicer gunslinger with paired wilks 457s has a lot of fun....

Gunslingers can't actually dual-wield rifles, only pistols and revolvers (unless they want to eat those heavy penalties, but then the Gunslinger part is irrelevant). To dual-wield rifles, you need to be a Gun Master, or a Super Slinger Cyborg (who have a reduced version, but still good enough for most functions).

[jaymz]

Truck shot fire a two handed weapon single handed.

[torjones]

Here is an extreme VP: ALL weapons that were not in the RMB are broken due to power creep.

Can you give an example of the creep you're referring to? Because I don't remember many units more powerful than the glitterboy. the NG-P7 remains the most powerful, cost effective hand held energy rifle in the game, and the number of GMs that won't let you start at level one with one are rare. The number of vehicles that make better mobile bases for an adventuring party than the Behemoth can be counted on one hand, like the hover hospital from Triax, so that might make a valid case for "power creep", but I'm not sure what else might.

Fair question. I'm not Drewkitty, but I'll try to give a good answer.

Okay, so an important distinction to make is that Power Creep is about new updates to a game/setting making older parts of the game underpowered or obsolete, and that this applies at EVERY level of the game, not just the high-end.
Make sense?

It's a pretty good answer, and I can certainly see how that argument is a valid one. I still think that looking at the top end of each category is more valid because the weapons in the middle vary widely and what makes one better than any other is very largely subjective, and you need to do a much deeper analysis to determine that, yes, there really is a general trend towards 2d6 then 3d6 and even later 4d6 laser pistols, just as an example. It's a lot harder to remove subjectivity from the middle of the field than it is from the top end. I will however agree, that there does in deed appear to be a trend in laser weapons to be ever increasing, though, for the most part, I don't really see a good reason for it. I'm not sure I would necessarily call that power creep however, just that your characters who are no longer level 1 have better options for gear than they did at level 1. You NEED better equipment and weapons as you go up in level. I'm not saying you're wrong about the creep, just that I'm looking at it in a different light.

*Let's look at the NG-P7 for a moment...

They are valid points, but I don't know that I'd agree with your analysis. I think though it's a personal opinion on how to examine the data, so, YMMV. I don't think it's appropriate to compare a single shot to a pulse, I think you've got to compare the single shot to the single shot. If you were going to compare single & pulse, you could then compare the RMB's NG-P7 "Mag Dump" damage to the FIWS's pulse, which would be equally unfair since the FIWS can't mag dump.

Of course, comparing single shot vs single shot makes it 30x5d6 vs 8x1d4x10, and it's not really much different than in your analysis.

I would however point out that the NG-P7 is using a short e-clip in the book, while the FIWS is using a long, and there isn't anything saying that an NG-P7 can't use a long, and before NG1 came out, there really wasn't anything stopping someone from having an NG-P7 using long e-clips and getting 16 shots per e-clip rather than magically losing 25% of its charge as you do since NG1 (unless you house rule that). However, even going with the NG1's 12-shot, its back to being a really good choice for combat again, and the argument for it is a lot easier to make.

So while I wouldn't necessarily say that the NG-P7 is obsolete compared to the FIWS, I would definitely say that it's nowhere near the king that it once was. The FIWS makes the NG-P7 relatively less powerful and less useful.
That's power creep.

The FIWS certainly has some advantages in close combat as well as melee. I won't deny that, but if your GM is failing to provide long range encounters, then he's missing a large part of the game, and I'll admit that it's something I've been guilty of as a GM as well from time to time. There's a reason your radar goes out to 5 miles (if not longer) in nearly every vehicle in the books.

If we were to look towards Palladium Fantasy for a moment for a point of comparison, First level characters get a "Long sword", dagger, staff, that sort of thing. No Masterwork weapons, no magical weapons, nothing like that, so is it power creep that there were a few magical weapons in the main book, and a whole lot more in later books? Western Empires details a lot of magical swords, and the old kingdom (IIRC) is full of rune weapons. Everyone gets more options (except maybe the warlocks), but you don't get better gear at first level just because you're in the western empire, you still gotta quest for it, or buy it from sold loot. Just like you have to do in Rifts. You may get your starting gear, but it's not the best in the game, and it really shouldn't be the best in the book either, but Humans are going to human... Anyway, I know I'm rambling a little bit, and I'm not sure I'm making myself clear, so I'm going to leave it at that and hope I'm making my points clear enough. Feel free to have a differing opinion, The world would be boring if everyone agreed all the time.

[Orin J.]

-The FIWS can be used single-handed, which means that it can more easily be used Paired than NG-P7s. If you have paired FIWS, and you fire a dual blast from each weapon, that's 2d6x10 MD. If you use the Sharpshooting skill to be able to fire rifles single-handed, and you pick up two NG-P7s, you'll still only do 2d4x10 MD, roughly 33% less damage than paired FIWS.

See, now you've got me thinking of a gunslinger who uses a pair of FIWS.

does having the weapons mounted to your forearms give you a quick draw advantage or are you considered to be cheating?

[jaymz]

If we were to look towards Palladium Fantasy for a moment for a point of comparison, First level characters get a "Long sword", dagger, staff, that sort of thing. No Masterwork weapons, no magical weapons, nothing like that, so is it power creep that there were a few magical weapons in the main book, and a whole lot more in later books? Western Empires details a lot of magical swords, and the old kingdom (IIRC) is full of rune weapons. Everyone gets more options (except maybe the warlocks), but you don't get better gear at first level just because you're in the western empire, you still gotta quest for it, or buy it from sold loot. Just like you have to do in Rifts. You may get your starting gear, but it's not the best in the game, and it really shouldn't be the best in the book either, but Humans are going to human... Anyway, I know I'm rambling a little bit, and I'm not sure I'm making myself clear, so I'm going to leave it at that and hope I'm making my points clear enough. Feel free to have a differing opinion, The world would be boring if everyone agreed all the time.
[/color]

There is one slight issue here.....in Rifts, that restriction of gear would have to come from the GM as most OCCs will say "energy rifle" or "energy pistol" of choice, leaving it open for the player to choose whatever weapon they wish. That is quite different than fantasy stating "long sword" or "dagger" or "new magical weapons". The equivalent would be if Fantasy said "sword of choice" or "dagger of choice" etc.

Now you will likely say use logic but frankly in 30 years the number of Rifts players than use logic is quite uncommon in my experiences both locally and online. Most I have encountered want the biggest bang not what makes sense. I myself was guilty of it in the early days. Once Atlantis came out, why would I want a Wilks 457 when I could take the Kittani version that does an extra +10 per triple pulse?

I've seen way too many GMs complain about this power creep and how players min max too much yet they let players playing in a "New West" campaign choose weapons from South America or Naruni Wave Two etc.

In the end all this power creep is overblown most of the time and is easily managed by the GM IF they GM chooses to do so. Too many do not and then complain about the after math of that choice.

[Giant2005]

Truck shot fire a two handed weapon single handed.

Being able to use a weapon with a single hand doesn't give you the ability to competently dual-wield it. If it did, the Paired Weapons skill would be redundant.

[jaymz]

Thus why he also HAS paired weapons.

[Giant2005]

Thus why he also HAS paired weapons.

But not with Rifles.

[jaymz]

Dude ffs play your way I'll play mine.

[Killer Cyborg]

Dude ffs play your way I'll play mine.

I like that you cut to the chase.

[Orin J.]

anyways, in regard to OP's original question, i think it's just the WI-GL8 doesn't factor in the weight from the ammo drums like the WI-GL4. the two weapons are visually identical but the -GL8 doesn't have an integral ammo drum so i think they forgot to factor the weight of the larger ammo capacity in.

honestly, wouldn't be the first time Merc Ops proved to have rules issues. i still remember figuring out the machinegun damage listings were using explosive rounds without actually mentioning the explosive rounds and making it look like they could just spray enough lead to do MDC.

[Prole]

Here is an extreme VP: ALL weapons that were not in the RMB are broken due to power creep.

Can you give an example of the creep you're referring to? Because I don't remember many units more powerful than the glitterboy. the NG-P7 remains the most powerful, cost effective hand held energy rifle in the game, and the number of GMs that won't let you start at level one with one are rare. The number of vehicles that make better mobile bases for an adventuring party than the Behemoth can be counted on one hand, like the hover hospital from Triax, so that might make a valid case for "power creep", but I'm not sure what else might.

The South American book had to be retroactively nerfed, the Special Forces OCC is trash and the Paratrooper OCC from Merc Ops is way better.

this paratrooper OCC isn't in Merc Ops.... also what's wrong with the special forces OCC? it's got a massive bank of skill choices to make whatever you need.

I confused Merc Ops with Merc Adventures, there are like four or so Merc books. From what I understand, the Special Forces OCC is maybe worse then the Merc Soldier, which is definitely worse then the Paratrooper and Headhunter.

This is mentioned a lot in other forums or places where people talk Rifts.

Thus why he also HAS paired weapons.

But not with Rifles.

Intensive Writing on the "Rumors" page.

[jaymz]

Dude ffs play your way I'll play mine.

I like that you cut to the chase.

Considering you and I ard fully aware that not a single person on these forums or anywhere else for that matter play the rules as written, as well as why thats the case, I saw no point continuing that thread....

[jaymz]

Here is an extreme VP: ALL weapons that were not in the RMB are broken due to power creep.

Can you give an example of the creep you're referring to? Because I don't remember many units more powerful than the glitterboy. the NG-P7 remains the most powerful, cost effective hand held energy rifle in the game, and the number of GMs that won't let you start at level one with one are rare. The number of vehicles that make better mobile bases for an adventuring party than the Behemoth can be counted on one hand, like the hover hospital from Triax, so that might make a valid case for "power creep", but I'm not sure what else might.

The South American book had to be retroactively nerfed, the Special Forces OCC is trash and the Paratrooper OCC from Merc Ops is way better.

this paratrooper OCC isn't in Merc Ops.... also what's wrong with the special forces OCC? it's got a massive bank of skill choices to make whatever you need.

I confused Merc Ops with Merc Adventures, there are like four or so Merc books. From what I understand, the Special Forces OCC is maybe worse then the Merc Soldier, which is definitely worse then the Paratrooper and Headhunter.

This is mentioned a lot in other forums or places where people talk Rifts.

Thus why he also HAS paired weapons.

But not with Rifles.

Intensive Writing on the "Rumors" page.

You need to remember the special forces occ was actually amazing for when it came out abd predates the other three you mention (paratrooper, merc soldier, and current version of the headhjnter) by af least a decade. Palladium has never updated older material to current standards generally speaking and everything in the mercenaries book is a prime example of a nook in need of updating.

[Giant2005]

Dude ffs play your way I'll play mine.

I like that you cut to the chase.

Considering you and I ard fully aware that not a single person on these forums or anywhere else for that matter play the rules as written, as well as why thats the case, I saw no point continuing that thread....

Yet you chose to anyway.
You posted your house-rule and then I clarified the actual rule, not for your sake, but for the sake of anyone else wandering in the thread. That is where it should have ended. But you chose to drag it out for two more posts.

[Prole]

This is why people say newer books are overpowered.

[torjones]

If we were to look towards Palladium Fantasy for a moment for a point of comparison,

There is one slight issue here.....in Rifts, that restriction of gear would have to come from the GM as most OCCs will say "energy rifle" or "energy pistol" of choice, leaving it open for the player to choose whatever weapon they wish. That is quite different than fantasy stating "long sword" or "dagger" or "new magical weapons". The equivalent would be if Fantasy said "sword of choice" or "dagger of choice" etc.

Now you will likely say use logic but frankly in 30 years the number of Rifts players than use logic is quite uncommon in my experiences both locally and online.

#NotWrong
As a GM I very specifically DO limit what weapons the players can take for free at first level, unless the campaign or OCC choices dictate otherwise. Obviously if someone is playing a Glitterboy or a Cosmo Knight, I'm going to be a lot more permissive in the free choices the gunslinger chooses at first level. While allowing players some room to grow equipment wise is important imo, so too is at least pretending to at least offer lip service to some kind of balance in the party. (balance still doesn't equal equality of course)

In the end all this power creep is overblown most of the time and is easily managed by the GM IF they GM chooses to do so. Too many do not and then complain about the after math of that choice.

#NotWrong

[Warshield73]

If we were to look towards Palladium Fantasy for a moment for a point of comparison,

There is one slight issue here.....in Rifts, that restriction of gear would have to come from the GM as most OCCs will say "energy rifle" or "energy pistol" of choice, leaving it open for the player to choose whatever weapon they wish. That is quite different than fantasy stating "long sword" or "dagger" or "new magical weapons". The equivalent would be if Fantasy said "sword of choice" or "dagger of choice" etc.

Now you will likely say use logic but frankly in 30 years the number of Rifts players than use logic is quite uncommon in my experiences both locally and online.

#NotWrong
As a GM I very specifically DO limit what weapons the players can take for free at first level, unless the campaign or OCC choices dictate otherwise. Obviously if someone is playing a Glitterboy or a Cosmo Knight, I'm going to be a lot more permissive in the free choices the gunslinger chooses at first level. While allowing players some room to grow equipment wise is important imo, so too is at least pretending to at least offer lip service to some kind of balance in the party. (balance still doesn't equal equality of course)

I think this just makes sense as you want players to have something to strive for. This is true even in video games. Playing with the crappy rifle and weak armor makes you appreciate the good stuff all the more.

In the end all this power creep is overblown most of the time and is easily managed by the GM IF they GM chooses to do so. Too many do not and then complain about the after math of that choice.

#NotWrong

Agreed all the way around. While some aspects of the power creep bug me for in universe reasons it never messed with my games.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, so an important distinction to make is that Power Creep is about new updates to a game/setting making older parts of the game underpowered or obsolete, and that this applies at EVERY level of the game, not just the high-end.
Make sense?

It's a pretty good answer, and I can certainly see how that argument is a valid one. I still think that looking at the top end of each category is more valid because the weapons in the middle vary widely and what makes one better than any other is very largely subjective, and you need to do a much deeper analysis to determine that, yes, there really is a general trend towards 2d6 then 3d6 and even later 4d6 laser pistols, just as an example.

It's never more valid to look where the problem in question is NOT occurring.

A second problem that Rifts has is Power Ceiling, where things generally don't go beyond a certain point. In Rifts, that ceiling is set around 3d6x10 MD, because the Glitter Boy is the high-end damage king, and Palladium wants him to stay that way. There are things that do more damage... but it's generally going to be gods and such.
That's why even though the GB is what... 12' tall? Giant bots that are 20-60' tall do a hell of a lot less damage.
power ceiling.

Power Creep + Power Ceiling = a game where eventually all things will do about 3d6x10 MD., if both trends continue over the long run.
That high-end not rising up doesn't affect the creep at the bottom and middle.

*Let's look at the NG-P7 for a moment...

[color=#008040] They are valid points, but I don't know that I'd agree with your analysis. I think though it's a personal opinion on how to examine the data, so, YMMV.

Mileage definitely varies. I can see why some people might still pick the NG-P7.
But unless you're playing with a GM that lets' the NG-P7 fire bursts/sprays, or unless the GM kept the misprinted 2d4x10 MD from the RGMG, the FIWS flat-out does more damage per attack.
Significantly more.
And it's a freakin' 5-lb glove.

I don't think it's appropriate to compare a single shot to a pulse, I think you've got to compare the single shot to the single shot. If you were going to compare single & pulse, you could then compare the RMB's NG-P7 "Mag Dump" damage to the FIWS's pulse, which would be equally unfair since the FIWS can't mag dump.

The NG-P7's mag dump is definitely not canon now, and very possibly never was. That could be a whole second argument, and if you look through the archives you can probably find where I've had that one before.
But either way, you're saying that it's NOT fair to compare a single shot to a dual-blast, but that it IS fair to compare a dual-blast to a full mag dump.
I disagree with that assessment, to say the least.
A dual blast, IIRC, can be used for Aimed Shots. Ripping a clip cannot.
And, of course, there's a much narrower gap between "two shots" and "one shot" than between "two shots" and "Eight Shots."

Of course, comparing single shot vs single shot makes it 30x5d6 vs 8x1d4x10, and it's not really much different than in your analysis.

I would however point out that the NG-P7 is using a short e-clip in the book, while the FIWS is using a long, and there isn't anything saying that an NG-P7 can't use a long, and before NG1 came out, there really wasn't anything stopping someone from having an NG-P7 using long e-clips and getting 16 shots per e-clip rather than magically losing 25% of its charge as you do since NG1 (unless you house rule that). However, even going with the NG1's 12-shot, its back to being a really good choice for combat again, and the argument for it is a lot easier to make.

RGMG 158 changed the Payload for the NG-P7 from 8 shots per "e-clip" to 6 shots per Short/Standard E-Clip, and 10 shots with a Long E-Clip.
Granted, this is the one where the damage got bumped up to 2d4x10 MD, at least in early editions, but it IS the most official answer for how many shots the gun gets from a long E-Clip.

So while I wouldn't necessarily say that the NG-P7 is obsolete compared to the FIWS, I would definitely say that it's nowhere near the king that it once was. The FIWS makes the NG-P7 relatively less powerful and less useful.
That's power creep.

[color=#008040] The FIWS certainly has some advantages in close combat as well as melee. I won't deny that, but if your GM is failing to provide long range encounters, then he's missing a large part of the game, and I'll admit that it's something I've been guilty of as a GM as well from time to time. There's a reason your radar goes out to 5 miles (if not longer) in nearly every vehicle in the books.

I agree that GMs should use more long range combat... but they don't.
Which means that hypothetically if GMs overall had different game styles, the range would matter more... but they don't, so it doesn't.

[Killer Cyborg]

If we were to look towards Palladium Fantasy for a moment for a point of comparison,

There is one slight issue here.....in Rifts, that restriction of gear would have to come from the GM as most OCCs will say "energy rifle" or "energy pistol" of choice, leaving it open for the player to choose whatever weapon they wish. That is quite different than fantasy stating "long sword" or "dagger" or "new magical weapons". The equivalent would be if Fantasy said "sword of choice" or "dagger of choice" etc.

Now you will likely say use logic but frankly in 30 years the number of Rifts players than use logic is quite uncommon in my experiences both locally and online.

#NotWrong
As a GM I very specifically DO limit what weapons the players can take for free at first level, unless the campaign or OCC choices dictate otherwise. Obviously if someone is playing a Glitterboy or a Cosmo Knight, I'm going to be a lot more permissive in the free choices the gunslinger chooses at first level. While allowing players some room to grow equipment wise is important imo, so too is at least pretending to at least offer lip service to some kind of balance in the party. (balance still doesn't equal equality of course)

In the end all this power creep is overblown most of the time and is easily managed by the GM IF they GM chooses to do so. Too many do not and then complain about the after math of that choice.

#NotWrong

When I GM, I exercise pretty strict control over what kinds of weapons the players get. No Naruni, for example, or other rare and really powerful weapons.
There are exceptions, but in general, I'd always tell my players which books they could choose from. If I just say "anything in the RGMG is fine," most everybody goes for Naruni, Arkhon, New Navy, and so forth, without rhyme or reason as to how they got those weapons.
(although even with a backstory, I generally wouldn't allow them as starting gear).

But none of that is in the rules, only in house-rules.
By the official rules, as soon as SB1 came out, people could pick a Wilk's 457 to start.
As soon as Mercenaries came out, the rules allowed players to start with Naruni gear.
And as you say... humans are gonna human.

I can kind of agree that power creep is relatively easily managed by GMs... but it increased the workload significantly when you add it all up.
And Rifts isn't work light to begin with, especially in comparison to modern games, so it's adding more straws to a strained camel's back.

[torjones]

I don't think it's appropriate to compare a single shot to a pulse, I think you've got to compare the single shot to the single shot. If you were going to compare single & pulse, you could then compare the RMB's NG-P7 "Mag Dump" damage to the FIWS's pulse, which would be equally unfair since the FIWS can't mag dump.

But either way, you're saying that it's NOT fair to compare a single shot to a dual-blast, but that it IS fair to compare a dual-blast to a full mag dump.
I disagree with that assessment, to say the least.

I'm glad you agree that it's unfair. See highlighted text above.

I would however point out that the NG-P7 is using a short e-clip in the book, while the FIWS is using a long, and there isn't anything saying that an NG-P7 can't use a long, and before NG1 came out, there really wasn't anything stopping someone from having an NG-P7 using long e-clips and getting 16 shots per e-clip rather than magically losing 25% of its charge as you do since NG1 (unless you house rule that). However, even going with the NG1's 12-shot, its back to being a really good choice for combat again, and the argument for it is a lot easier to make.

RGMG 158 changed the Payload for the NG-P7 from 8 shots per "e-clip" to 6 shots per Short/Standard E-Clip, and 10 shots with a Long E-Clip.
Granted, this is the one where the damage got bumped up to 2d4x10 MD, at least in early editions, but it IS the most official answer for how many shots the gun gets from a long E-Clip.

Damn... I completely missed that for so long... As it stands, I think it's just another entry for my house rule clarifications folder...