Spellbook question

[Glistam]

I have a couple questions regarding spellbooks and how other GM's handle them with players. If a mage acquires a book of spells:
1. How fast do most gm's/player's allow the new mage to learn the new spells, what rolls, and what levels?
2. The mage obviously can tell the book he found is magic. How do you explain what everything looks like inside the book rather than the just, "you can not understand"? Does the mage see things lifting from the pages while no one else does? etc?

[Library Ogre]

I have a couple questions regarding spellbooks and how other GM's handle them with players. If a mage acquires a book of spells:
1. How fast do most gm's/player's allow the new mage to learn the new spells, what rolls, and what levels?

My requirement is time, based on the level of the spell; can't remember the numbers, of the top of my head. I have spellbooks essentially as detailed instructions on how to cast a spell, in several different colors of inks, designed to convey everything you need to know.

2. The mage obviously can tell the book he found is magic. How do you explain what everything looks like inside the book rather than the just, "you can not understand"? Does the mage see things lifting from the pages while no one else does? etc?

IMC, he cannot tell that the book is magic without opening it. Inside, others reading it won't understand because they don't have the knowledge to do so... it would be like reading an engineering text, about how to build a robot. Assuming the wizard understands the language, and whatever personal code its in, and is of the correct magical tradition, he can read it just fine.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Mages in palladium have no need of spellbooks. in fact, i'm pretty sure there's a line somewhere about how they avoid putting spells in spellbooks, not to mention a vast number of illeiterate spellcasters.

[Library Ogre]

Mages in palladium have no need of spellbooks. in fact, i'm pretty sure there's a line somewhere about how they avoid putting spells in spellbooks, not to mention a vast number of illeiterate spellcasters.

No need, but that doesn't mean "No use for." I envision spellbooks somewhat like recipe books for your favorite recipe... you keep making notes on how to improve it, things you've tried that don't work, things that did work, specific odd circumstances, etc.

It's not strictly necessary... you can still cook without it. But you're a better cook with it. However, if it falls into enemy hands, they know how to make you grandmother's meatloaf (or carpet of adhesion).

[Razorwing]

Generally, in my games, spell books such as those used in D&D and similar games do not exist. The spells are already memoriezed so the mage doesn't need to keep any external source to remind him of which spells he knows. Actual spell books are rare, mostly becaus if they were captured by a rival mage, they would have all the spells known by that wizard at their fingertips. Thus most mages see actual spell books as unaceptable security risks.

That said, most wizards will have a lot of extensive reserch notes on spells they are researching and such. These can be kept in journal-like books, a bunch of collected scrolls (non-magical) or just random pieces of paper filed in any manner the wizard in question wants.

The problem for my PCs who wish to capture those notes in the hope of learning a new spell or two will be in deciphering the notes, deducing what is actually useful knowledge and what is mere junk. On one occassion, my players managed to ransack a small library from a wzard's tower, only to discover about a month latter once they had finished reading through all the notes, that none of the thousands of pages held any complete spells (there were references to over a dozen spells of various levels). To add insult to injury, most of those notes were about failed experiments on the mentioned spells (the Wizard they took them from had a habit of destroying any notes that actually lead to actual spells to foil would be spell robbers).

[Damian Magecraft]

Like others here I view the spellbook more as a type of scientific journal, what worked, what didn't etc...
the problem comes from the fact that no 2 people take notes the exact same way, some are detail fanatics others just write down the bare essentials and others sort of place what ape4ar to be random thoughts down. in any case the crunchy bits or mechanic i came up with (since as far as i could tell there were no true rules for acquiring spell knowledge this way) goes like this...

use the scroll conversion %
modified by 1% per level of difference between the 2 mages
modified by 1% per level of difference between student and spell
the type of notes and personality of the original mage also modify the chance of success this however is more subjective...

[Nekira Sudacne]

Mages in palladium have no need of spellbooks. in fact, i'm pretty sure there's a line somewhere about how they avoid putting spells in spellbooks, not to mention a vast number of illeiterate spellcasters.

No need, but that doesn't mean "No use for." I envision spellbooks somewhat like recipe books for your favorite recipe... you keep making notes on how to improve it, things you've tried that don't work, things that did work, specific odd circumstances, etc.

It's not strictly necessary... you can still cook without it. But you're a better cook with it. However, if it falls into enemy hands, they know how to make you grandmother's meatloaf (or carpet of adhesion).

I Guess your right....it just never occurs to me to think that way.


I NEVER take notes on anything ever...and I still do rather well.

[Library Ogre]

Mages in palladium have no need of spellbooks. in fact, i'm pretty sure there's a line somewhere about how they avoid putting spells in spellbooks, not to mention a vast number of illeiterate spellcasters.

No need, but that doesn't mean "No use for." I envision spellbooks somewhat like recipe books for your favorite recipe... you keep making notes on how to improve it, things you've tried that don't work, things that did work, specific odd circumstances, etc.

It's not strictly necessary... you can still cook without it. But you're a better cook with it. However, if it falls into enemy hands, they know how to make you grandmother's meatloaf (or carpet of adhesion).

I Guess your right....it just never occurs to me to think that way.


I NEVER take notes on anything ever...and I still do rather well.

I didn't, for quite some time. However, for my past several articles, I've been taking notes in order to allow me to organize thoughts better before I write.

Also, there's the scientific aspect of it; you might want to record what you've already tried and the results, so you don't repeat mistakes.

[JTwig]

I have a couple questions regarding spellbooks and how other GM's handle them with players. If a mage acquires a book of spells:
1. How fast do most gm's/player's allow the new mage to learn the new spells, what rolls, and what levels?
2. The mage obviously can tell the book he found is magic. How do you explain what everything looks like inside the book rather than the just, "you can not understand"? Does the mage see things lifting from the pages while no one else does? etc?

Try this topic out.

http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?t=74334&highlight=spellbooks

[Lukterran]

My mage character keeps all his mystic knowledge locked away within his rune tome. A good place to story his spells and circles in which he considers it reasonably secure. The spirit of the rune tome helps him work on and research new magic.

Other examples of magic books in Palladium are in:
The Old Ones Book "Death Song-Tome" pg. 159
Library of Bletherad has a section starting on pg. 71 about magic books.
Original 1st Edition main book "Tombs of Gersidi" Adventure "Mordan's magic book"
Avaxa's research log book is also a kind of spell book, from Adventure in the Northern Wilderness.

So magic books do exist.

However most of the time they are written in a code and using many languages and symbols to hide their true nature and make difficult to decipher.

My mage also keeps books of complete magical crap around which are easy to find that is full of the same type of complex code but are worthless. Keeping just enough "real" magic in it to blowup in the theif's face, mainly unsuccessful scroll convertions.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Mages in palladium have no need of spellbooks. in fact, i'm pretty sure there's a line somewhere about how they avoid putting spells in spellbooks, not to mention a vast number of illeiterate spellcasters.

No need, but that doesn't mean "No use for." I envision spellbooks somewhat like recipe books for your favorite recipe... you keep making notes on how to improve it, things you've tried that don't work, things that did work, specific odd circumstances, etc.

It's not strictly necessary... you can still cook without it. But you're a better cook with it. However, if it falls into enemy hands, they know how to make you grandmother's meatloaf (or carpet of adhesion).

I Guess your right....it just never occurs to me to think that way.


I NEVER take notes on anything ever...and I still do rather well.

I didn't, for quite some time. However, for my past several articles, I've been taking notes in order to allow me to organize thoughts better before I write.

Also, there's the scientific aspect of it; you might want to record what you've already tried and the results, so you don't repeat mistakes.

Oh, I know what pruprose they can serve, I just choose not to use them and so it didn't occur to me that's what this was about.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I have a couple questions regarding spellbooks and how other GM's handle them with players. If a mage acquires a book of spells:
1. How fast do most gm's/player's allow the new mage to learn the new spells, what rolls, and what levels?

At the normal rate for level up spells.
As per the Megaversal Spell Creation Rules found in Through the Glass Darkly for the in between spell levels resurched spells.
Or if being tought from another spell caster, 2 day per level of the spell.
If the Wizard (being specific) is trying for spell scroll convertion then as the dice rule.

2. The mage obviously can tell the book he found is magic. How do you explain what everything looks like inside the book rather than the just, "you can not understand"? Does the mage see things lifting from the pages while no one else does? etc?

Yes a Mage can obviously tell a Magic Book from a mundain book, but magic books are magic items that have a magic aura.

However, Mages would have to read a Book On Magic and study it to determine if it containes any spell formula that can be turned into spells. I would give a bonuse to the Spell Creation %'s (see Through the Glass Darkly for the Details) if a mage had a book with spell formula in it.

In Library of Bletherad, there is a tome called 'Fulminations', that has spell formula (discrptive text). Wizards can try to use their Spell Scroll Convertion skill to figure out spells from the 'Fulminations' Tome, (the text of the discription is such that the following convertion rate is ONLY for the 'Fulminations' tome) but at a -10% penalty. The text does not say how long the Wizard has to study the text before they can make an attempt for convertion.

[JTwig]

actually what mages do is memorize things, especially incantations/invocations or mages that practice this type of magic.

that dawned on me trying to write up my memorization skill, something most mages (with the exception of the Mystic and a few others) would be very skilled at. most mages learn spells over a day or two, so keeping formulas or verse in their heads for extended periods of time (plus all the spells they already know) is quite common. the might need to be reflected in a skill, because logically they should be able to do it for other things as well.

does a Mystic still have a verbal component to their spells ? even though they don't learn them like "traditional mages" ??? that might be quite an advantage for the Mystic OCC.

I would think that the mages may keep a book containing their mystic knowledge so they could refresh their memories on known, but rarely used spells. I mean, doctors are expected to learn vast quantities of information like a mage, but even the best of them tend to forget things and occasionally have to crack open a book to refresh their knowledge. I can see this being done more often at the very beginning of their careers, and at the very end of their careers after they've aged and have accumulate vast knowledge (and reached high levels of experience).

[Razorwing]

Now, while I truely belive that Magic OCCs do not need to make spell books, that doesn't mean that they don't. As has been pointed out, such books do exist in many places (Tolkeen once had a book that discribed 10 Spells of Legend before the contry was conquored by the Coalition). Additionaly, places where Magic is a honored discipline of study, such as Lazlo, will likely have a number of books containing many possible spells.

In fact, students attending a Magical College or similar institute will likely have a small primer of spells containing the spells which they learned while at the school (likely the spells that they start off with at 1st lvl). Why? To show their mentors/teachers they understand the spell rather than just copying the movements and vocalizations of their teachers. As a Final Exam, such schools could require a student to teach another student a spell they have never seen before solely from their spellbook/primer.

As for later on in their careers, what could motivate a spellcaster to leave a written record of the spells they have learned? Perhapse they discovered a long lost spell of either incredible power or usefullness that must not be lost again. Others might use such books as a bargaining chip for additional knowledge. Some Guilds may require each of its members to submit a book containing a portion of their spell knowledge on a regular basis (with a caveat that the same spell can not be written twice), so the guild can dole out spells for favors.

One final reason a Wizard might choose to create a spellbook is the fear that all his knowledge might be lost upon his death. Most wizards are not immortal and know that one day they may be gone, and that all their knowledge and wisdom will likewise dissapear with their passing. Some might feel that they know too much to let that knowledge just slip away without passing it on to someone worthy. The problem is that that worthy person might not be born untill well after the wizard's passing. So how do they pass on their knowledge when they won't be there to teach it themselves? They leave some written record for a worthy individual to find (though rarely will it be easy for them to do so).

Now assuming that some wizards do make spellbooks, how do you think they would look? Let us assume only those wizards who can learn any spell at any time even bother, that means that Line Walkers, Techno-Wizards, Shifters and a few others leave these minor wonders behind. What do you think they would look like? Would a Line Walker's spellbook look anything like a Techno-Wizard's? What would the spellbook of a Necromancer look like? Would they even be books (could the Techno-Wizard inscribe crystals that show the formulas when light is shone through the crystal's facets)?

[mobuttu]

1. How fast do most gm's/player's allow the new mage to learn the new spells, what rolls, and what levels?

Time to learn: Spell Level*PPE/ME*8 h reading. Legendary spells are considered Level 20 for reading time.
Roll to check:
IQx4 (Levels 1-5)
IQx3 (Levels 6-10)
IQx2 (Levels 11-15)
IQx1 Legendary

Failed roll means that mage has to reread the spell considering it one level lower (min. level 1). On a failed roll on Legendary spells, mage it's unable to reroll until it has adquired new insight on it (level up or discussed it with a higher level mage).

Some exemples, (ME 15)

See aura Lvl 1 - 6 PPE. 1*6/15*8= 3,2 h to read it. IQx4 to learn it.
Armor Bizarre. Lvl 5 - 15 PPE. 5*15/15*8=40 h to read it. IQx3 to learn it*.
Transformation Lvl 15 - 2000 PPE. 15*2000/15*8=16000 h (1,8 years) to read it. IQx2 to learn it.
Crimson Wall of Lictalon (Legendary). Lvl 20 - 6000. 20*6000/15*8=64000 h (7,3 years). IQx1 to learn it (that's why they are considered of Legend

*Should th PC fail the IQ roll, he can try to learn it again by rereading the spell in (4*15/15*8=32 h) and learning with a IQx4 (as it is considered 1 level lower).

Hope this helps,

[Damian Magecraft]

1. How fast do most gm's/player's allow the new mage to learn the new spells, what rolls, and what levels?

Time to learn: Spell Level*PPE/ME*8 h reading. Legendary spells are considered Level 20 for reading time.
Roll to check:
IQx4 (Levels 1-5)
IQx3 (Levels 6-10)
IQx2 (Levels 11-15)
IQx1 Legendary

Failed roll means that mage has to reread the spell considering it one level lower (min. level 1). On a failed roll on Legendary spells, mage it's unable to reroll until it has adquired new insight on it (level up or discussed it with a higher level mage).

Some exemples, (ME 15)

See aura Lvl 1 - 6 PPE. 1*6/15*8= 3,2 h to read it. IQx4 to learn it.
Armor Bizarre. Lvl 5 - 15 PPE. 5*15/15*8=40 h to read it. IQx3 to learn it*.
Transformation Lvl 15 - 2000 PPE. 15*2000/15*8=16000 h (1,8 years) to read it. IQx2 to learn it.
Crimson Wall of Lictalon (Legendary). Lvl 20 - 6000. 20*6000/15*8=64000 h (7,3 years). IQx1 to learn it (that's why they are considered of Legend

*Should th PC fail the IQ roll, he can try to learn it again by rereading the spell in (4*15/15*8=32 h) and learning with a IQx4 (as it is considered 1 level lower).

Hope this helps,

interesting formula
RUE puts it at 2days per level to learn a spell
and TtGD uses a formula of IQ+ME+1/10th Principles of magic skills+ level of mage...said rules requires 210 hrs (7hrs a day for 30 days) be dedicated to researching the spell ...the Hours can be broken up in any manner the mage wishes but no less that 3 days can pass with out doing experimentation or the mage must start over again...and durring this time the mages available PPE is reduced by 1/2 (the other 1/2 being assumed burned up in the experiment).
for systems with out the PoM skill TtGD suggests a base of 60% for True Mages....