Mind Bolt & TK Acceleration

[Talavar]

Does anyone else think these 2 psionic powers (mind bolt & telekinetic acceleration) are extremely weak for their costs? I mean, mind bolt does what, 2d4 MD for 40 ISP? You can do more with about the crappiest MD weapons available.

Not only can you do more damage with almost any weapon, and most damaging spells for less cost, but you can even do more damage for less cost with the pyrokinesis power, or psi-sword.

Anyone else think these powers should have been given an update in RUE, either to cost less, or do more?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Does anyone else think these 2 psionic powers (mind bolt & telekinetic acceleration) are extremely weak for their costs? I mean, mind bolt does what, 2d4 MD for 40 ISP? You can do more with about the crappiest MD weapons available.

Not only can you do more damage with almost any weapon, and most damaging spells for less cost, but you can even do more damage for less cost with the pyrokinesis power, or psi-sword.

Anyone else think these powers should have been given an update in RUE, either to cost less, or do more?

Mind Bolt and Psychic Body Feild costs too much: the others i'm cool with.

[verdilak]

I use the Mind Bolt from PFRPG and just change the SDC to MD. Works well for my games.

[Killer Cyborg]

Does anyone else think these 2 psionic powers (mind bolt & telekinetic acceleration) are extremely weak for their costs?

I'm sure that some people agree, but I'm not one of them.

I mean, mind bolt does what, 2d4 MD for 40 ISP? You can do more with about the crappiest MD weapons available.

No, the crappiest MD weapons available do 1 MD.
The next crappiest do 1d4 MD.
The next crappiest do 1d6 MD.

2d4 isn't that bad.
Granted, it was better back in the main book, when a T-Rex had 10-40 MDC, but it's not the power's fault that so much other stuff has gotten too powered.

Not only can you do more damage with almost any weapon, and most damaging spells for less cost, but you can even do more damage for less cost with the pyrokinesis power, or psi-sword.

Pyrokinesis can dish out more damage, but it has a downside in that so many creatures are impervious (or resistant) to fire.

The Psi Sword is THE big damage-dealing power for psychics. It's supposed to do more damage than anything else.
That's why (originally, at least) even the most powerful psychics couldn't even get the power until 3rd level.

Anyone else think these powers should have been given an update in RUE, either to cost less, or do more?

Power Creep has made the ability less effective, but sit and think about it for a minute.
The power allows you to inflict 2d4 megadamage with your mind.
That's the power of about 20 sticks of dynamite with a single thought.

The power isn't weak; it's just that there's a lot of stuff that's stronger.

[Talavar]

Okay, Mind bolt does 2d4 MD with your mind, but pyrokinesis lets you do 6d6 MD with your mind for less ISP. Psi-sword does a lot more damage per hit, but has a duration, so the ISP/damage ratio is even more skewed.

What I'm saying, is that by leaving Mind bolt, and to a lesser extent TK acceleartion unchanged, with the power creep that has occurred, good or bad, they've become irrelevant powers.

It was a player I'm gaming with who really pointed this out to me. He's playing a mind melter, and they have limitations on the numbers of super psionics they can take as they level. He argued, quite persuasively, that there's no good reason for anyone to select mind bolt as a power.

TK body field was mentioned as another power costing too much for what you get, but at least it scales with leveling so that you get more for the cost.

[elecgraystone]

Does anyone else think these 2 psionic powers (mind bolt & telekinetic acceleration) are extremely weak for their costs? I mean, mind bolt does what, 2d4 MD for 40 ISP? You can do more with about the crappiest MD weapons available.

The ONLY reason to EVER take mind bolt is if you are a class like gizmoteer that makes TW items that use this power as a requirement to make an item.

As to TK acceleration attack, it's fine. It's possible to use special materials in the attack to get a little extra bang for your buck. silver and wood works great for were's and vamps. DU rounds does the trick for supernaturals w/ regeneration. While the TK attack isn't the best damage vs isp cost power out there, the ability to use ANY small objects means it has much more versatility than ones that do more damage. Plus it's physical damage. This power HURTS mystic knights and other creatures resistant or immune to energy damage.

[Noon]

It was a player I'm gaming with who really pointed this out to me. He's playing a mind melter, and they have limitations on the numbers of super psionics they can take as they level. He argued, quite persuasively, that there's no good reason for anyone to select mind bolt as a power.

He has a point, but why is he pointing it out to you? If it's so crappy, don't pick it - he doesn't need to talk about it.

Ask him why he's bringing it up? Does he want it acknowledged that he has enough system mastery to have figured this? Then acknowledge him - the bolt isn't really the issue in that case.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, Mind bolt does 2d4 MD with your mind, but pyrokinesis lets you do 6d6 MD with your mind for less ISP.

Kind of.
It lets you do 6d6 MD with a fireball created by your mind.
And it's not clear if it was originally that powerful. The original book listed the damage as "6d6" without any indication of whether it was mega-damage or SDC damage. It's quite possible that they PK Fireball has just power crept along with everything else.

Even so, it's not that much better than Mind Bolt.
Yes, the damage is more than 3x better.
But the range sucks in comparison. Fireball gives you 30'+2'/lvl, and Mind Bolt gives 100' per level.
And, as pointed out, there's a heck of a lot of creatures that are immune (or resistant) to fire.
Nothing that comes to mind is immune to Mind Bolt.

Psi-sword does a lot more damage per hit, but has a duration, so the ISP/damage ratio is even more skewed.

Already addressed psi-sword; it's supposed to be more powerful.
But just for the heck of it, I'll point out the slight edge that Mind Bolt has in with range.

What I'm saying, is that by leaving Mind bolt, and to a lesser extent TK acceleartion unchanged, with the power creep that has occurred, good or bad, they've become irrelevant powers.

It was a player I'm gaming with who really pointed this out to me. He's playing a mind melter, and they have limitations on the numbers of super psionics they can take as they level. He argued, quite persuasively, that there's no good reason for anyone to select mind bolt as a power.

It depends on what you're going for.
It all that matters to you is the ability to inflict maximum damage at minimum range, Mind Bolt isn't the best choice for your character.

But if you want to snipe people form 100'-1500' away (depending on level) without using a gun, then Mind Bolt is the better choice.

And there are other random factors involved.
From the description, it sounds like a pk fireball has to be physically thrown by the psychic; meaning that he has to have his hands free.
If he's tied up, carrying weapons, or any number of other things, that could interfere with the power being used.

In the end, whether or not power creep makes anything irrelevent is up to the GM. If you embrace power creep and let it permeate your games, then it can make some of the older stuff less useful or even obsolete.
But it doesn't have to be that way.
Rifts is full of varying levels of power, and they're all good depending on what you're up against. A character with Mind Bolt who's up against somebody in SDC armor is a GOD in comparison.
What level of challenges the players encounter is up to the GM, and any power level or combination of powers can be accomadated.

If you really think that the player is right, then upgrade Mind Bolt to be more powerful.
Here are a couple suggestions:
-One of the writers for HU once stated that Mind Bolt inflicted damage directly to the target's mind. Which would make it bypass armor entirely.
That powerful enough for you?
-Or, more reasonably, have the damage adjusted to 2d4 MD per 40 ISP spent, allowing a psychic with enough ISP to crank out a lot of damage.
Or maybe 40 for the bolt, and 10 ISP per 1d4 MD desired after that.
-Or just increase the damage by a flat amount. Instead of 2d4, do 2d8, or 4d4, or whatever.


But personally I'd use the official rules to make a psyscape psychic NPC with Mind Bolt as his Extended Psionic Power, then have him show up and pick the PC off from a distance, sniper-style.
Not necessarily kill the PC, but do enough damage to emphasize the advantages of Mind Bolt.

[Library Ogre]

Okay, Mind bolt does 2d4 MD with your mind, but pyrokinesis lets you do 6d6 MD with your mind for less ISP. Psi-sword does a lot more damage per hit, but has a duration, so the ISP/damage ratio is even more skewed.

Downside of Pyro: Range. Lack of scalability (with that option). Fire resistance and immunity.

Downside of Psi-Sword: Range. Concentration Time (1 melee is not insignificant).

What I'm saying, is that by leaving Mind bolt, and to a lesser extent TK acceleartion unchanged, with the power creep that has occurred, good or bad, they've become irrelevant powers.

IIRC, wasn't TK Acceleration attack originally a Physical power, not a Super power?

[Nekira Sudacne]

IIRC, wasn't TK Acceleration attack originally a Physical power, not a Super power?

Yes. In fact, i'm pretty sure Psyscape still has it listed there.

[elecgraystone]

technically there's other limitations, such as what if you're cruising around the Astral Plane and there's no rocks, coins or junk around to TK ACC with, suddenly Mind Bolt is looking pretty good (most people can't take any items with them unless they've been astrally reconfigured). There might be exceptions but for the garden variety PC mind melter they'd be in a jamb.

same with temporary time hole, so always carry change in your pocket !

If you play around the astral plane, pick up astral bolt instead. It's far better than mind bolt for astral attacks.

[elecgraystone]

But if you want to snipe people form 100'-1500' away (depending on level) without using a gun, then Mind Bolt is the better choice.

This is the one and only thing thing mind bolt has going for it. The only problem, at 40-50 isp per shot, how many sniping shots can you expect to do? not many.

Now if you snipe an sdc target, it just might be worthwhile. For me, most times i don't pulp unarmored people but if that's your thing, well this might just be the power for you.

[Talavar]

The +8 to strike is pretty good, but that's for 50 ISP remember. A mind melter with 200 isp can shoot off four of those; 200 ISP still seems like a lot to me, and 4x2d4 is not a heck of a lot of damage.

The range is pretty good, I overlooked that in the comparison with pyrokinesis.

I still think the uneven comparison with psi-sword is appropriate; I know psi-sword is meant to be the most powerful damaging psionic power, but it simply has so much more damage potential for the cost in ISP versus mind bolt. But yes, range again balances that to a degree.

[Killer Cyborg]

But if you want to snipe people form 100'-1500' away (depending on level) without using a gun, then Mind Bolt is the better choice.

This is the one and only thing thing mind bolt has going for it.

The other thing, as I have pointed out a number of times, is that there isn't much of anything that's immune to it.
Unlike Pyrokinesis.

The only problem, at 40-50 isp per shot, how many sniping shots can you expect to do? not many.

Depends on your time-frame and how much ISP you have.

As long as you're dishing out damage faster than they can repair it, you're winning.

Now if you snipe an sdc target, it just might be worthwhile. For me, most times i don't pulp unarmored people but if that's your thing, well this might just be the power for you.

My characters personalities vary. I've played Principled, Diabolic, and everything in between.
There are times when you want to pulp somebody from a distance, and there are times when you don't.
It all comes down to the character and the circumstances.

Which is why it's kind of silly to claim that a power is useless; characters and circumstances vary too much for that claim to be very accurate.

[Killer Cyborg]

The +8 to strike is pretty good, but that's for 50 ISP remember. A mind melter with 200 isp can shoot off four of those; 200 ISP still seems like a lot to me, and 4x2d4 is not a heck of a lot of damage.

The range is pretty good, I overlooked that in the comparison with pyrokinesis.

I still think the uneven comparison with psi-sword is appropriate; I know psi-sword is meant to be the most powerful damaging psionic power, but it simply has so much more damage potential for the cost in ISP versus mind bolt. But yes, range again balances that to a degree.

You place entirely too much emphasis on ISP to Damage.

[verdilak]

If you are having problems with the mind bolt as presented in the RUE, just use the mind bolt from PF. It does 1d6 for every 6 ISP, and since converting from PF to RIFTs, the damage would just change from SDC to MD.

Personally, 40 ISP for 2d4 MD is too much. Since if you have a problem with MD, you can just make it equal SDC, then if you did that, the damage would be 2d4 SDC for 40 ISP. This doesn't seem right. Seems like someone wanted to limit the psionics a bit too much.

I say use the PF MB and throw out the RUE's version.

[Library Ogre]

Personally, 40 ISP for 2d4 MD is too much. Since if you have a problem with MD, you can just make it equal SDC, then if you did that, the damage would be 2d4 SDC for 40 ISP. This doesn't seem right. Seems like someone wanted to limit the psionics a bit too much.

Thing is, verdi, the Rifts Mind Bolt has SDC options... However, since they're not MDC, they're not as useful in Rifts.

[verdilak]

Personally, 40 ISP for 2d4 MD is too much. Since if you have a problem with MD, you can just make it equal SDC, then if you did that, the damage would be 2d4 SDC for 40 ISP. This doesn't seem right. Seems like someone wanted to limit the psionics a bit too much.

Thing is, verdi, the Rifts Mind Bolt has SDC options... However, since they're not MDC, they're not as useful in Rifts.

Yea, but KS says numberous times in many different titles, to make SDC equal MD and vice versa if thats how you want to play it. Kinda like House Rules, Canon Style.

[Library Ogre]

Personally, 40 ISP for 2d4 MD is too much. Since if you have a problem with MD, you can just make it equal SDC, then if you did that, the damage would be 2d4 SDC for 40 ISP. This doesn't seem right. Seems like someone wanted to limit the psionics a bit too much.

Thing is, verdi, the Rifts Mind Bolt has SDC options... However, since they're not MDC, they're not as useful in Rifts.

Yea, but KS says numberous times in many different titles, to make SDC equal MD and vice versa if thats how you want to play it. Kinda like House Rules, Canon Style.

Yeah, but there's already a canon MD version of Mind Bolt, which is, in fact, newer than the Palladium Fantasy Mind Bolt... by the standard "Newest rules trump", and "convert MDC to SDC", the new rule in PF is you can spend 12 ISP and do 3D6, or 40 ISP and do 2D4... and now we're back in stupid territory.

[Killer Cyborg]

Personally, 40 ISP for 2d4 MD is too much. Since if you have a problem with MD, you can just make it equal SDC, then if you did that, the damage would be 2d4 SDC for 40 ISP. This doesn't seem right. Seems like someone wanted to limit the psionics a bit too much.

Thing is, verdi, the Rifts Mind Bolt has SDC options... However, since they're not MDC, they're not as useful in Rifts.

Yea, but KS says numberous times in many different titles, to make SDC equal MD and vice versa if thats how you want to play it. Kinda like House Rules, Canon Style.

Yeah, but there's already a canon MD version of Mind Bolt.

You're missing what he's saying.

KS has said, "If you don't like MDC, don't use it. Just convert everything to SDC".
In an SDC setting, the Rifts rules for Mindbolt don't make sense because the most powerful damage would convert into 2d4 SDC.
What he's saying is, just play everything in SDC, and use the PFRPG rules for Mind Bolt.
Then it's a top-notch power again.

[verdilak]

You're missing what he's saying.

KS has said, "If you don't like MDC, don't use it. Just convert everything to SDC".
In an SDC setting, the Rifts rules for Mindbolt don't make sense because the most powerful damage would convert into 2d4 SDC.
What he's saying is, just play everything in SDC, and use the PFRPG rules for Mind Bolt.
Then it's a top-notch power again.

Thanks KC, you hit it the nail on the head there. Just take the 1d6 SDC from PF and turn the SDC to MD.

[Library Ogre]

You're missing what he's saying.

KS has said, "If you don't like MDC, don't use it. Just convert everything to SDC".
In an SDC setting, the Rifts rules for Mindbolt don't make sense because the most powerful damage would convert into 2d4 SDC.
What he's saying is, just play everything in SDC, and use the PFRPG rules for Mind Bolt.
Then it's a top-notch power again.

Looking at what he's saying, I don't think I'm missing it.

He's saying "Use the PF rules for Mind Bolt, but have it do Mega Damage." Not switch all of Rifts to SDC.

[asajosh]

Does anyone else think these 2 psionic powers (mind bolt & telekinetic acceleration) are extremely weak for their costs? I mean, mind bolt does what, 2d4 MD for 40 ISP? You can do more with about the crappiest MD weapons available.

Not only can you do more damage with almost any weapon, and most damaging spells for less cost, but you can even do more damage for less cost with the pyrokinesis power, or psi-sword.

Anyone else think these powers should have been given an update in RUE, either to cost less, or do more?

Im probobly gonna get yelled at, but Im of the opinion that the ability to apear totally unarmed but spontaneously generate a mega damage attack from will power alone is pretty powerful, no matter the cost (almost). Depends on how its played I suppose. Like a surprise back up attack, or killing people while chained to a wall and "helpless".

[Killer Cyborg]

You're missing what he's saying.

KS has said, "If you don't like MDC, don't use it. Just convert everything to SDC".
In an SDC setting, the Rifts rules for Mindbolt don't make sense because the most powerful damage would convert into 2d4 SDC.
What he's saying is, just play everything in SDC, and use the PFRPG rules for Mind Bolt.
Then it's a top-notch power again.

Looking at what he's saying, I don't think I'm missing it.

He's saying "Use the PF rules for Mind Bolt, but have it do Mega Damage." Not switch all of Rifts to SDC.

I think he's saying two things.
What I was commenting on was where he said, " Since if you have a problem with MD, you can just make it equal SDC, then if you did that, the damage would be 2d4 SDC for 40 ISP. This doesn't seem right. "

But yes, I believe that he's also proposing, as another solution, just converting the SDC version from PFRPG into straight mega-damage.
Yes, this would leave the new version without an SDC component, but a lot of powers don't have SDC components.

[verdilak]

You're missing what he's saying.

KS has said, "If you don't like MDC, don't use it. Just convert everything to SDC".
In an SDC setting, the Rifts rules for Mindbolt don't make sense because the most powerful damage would convert into 2d4 SDC.
What he's saying is, just play everything in SDC, and use the PFRPG rules for Mind Bolt.
Then it's a top-notch power again.

Looking at what he's saying, I don't think I'm missing it.

He's saying "Use the PF rules for Mind Bolt, but have it do Mega Damage." Not switch all of Rifts to SDC.

I think he's saying two things.
What I was commenting on was where he said, " Since if you have a problem with MD, you can just make it equal SDC, then if you did that, the damage would be 2d4 SDC for 40 ISP. This doesn't seem right. "

But yes, I believe that he's also proposing, as another solution, just converting the SDC version from PFRPG into straight mega-damage.
Yes, this would leave the new version without an SDC component, but a lot of powers don't have SDC components.

Yea, I'm saying two things. If you can turn MD into SDC, then the RUE mind bolt just doesnt make sense. And I am suggesting that. In other words, KC, you are right.

I mean, if I was playing a Master Psionic P.C.C. from PF and got rifted to RIFTs earth, then accoring to RUE my mind bolt now has compleatly different rules. Just for simplicity's sake, just make it do the same amount of damage, just in MD. So what if you can't deal SDC damage with mind bolt? RIFT's earth is supercharged with energy and I dont see how you WOULD be able to.

I don't agree with RUE's version of RIFTs and in the spirit of PB, since I don't like it, I'm not going to use it. Besides which, we still don't have the official erata for the RUE yet. Who knows, maybe that changes.

[verdilak]

Mind Bolt is a Super Psionic. There are non-Super psionics that are more powerful than the RUE's version. Take TK Acceleration, it's a physical psionic, and for 20 ISP, does 3d6+4 MD. Granted that it's range is short, half that of mind bolt at level 1, but does more than double the damage.

Though Mind Bolt is useful in covert applications, I see it as being invisible, the damage just isn't there for a Super Psionic. Again, I go with my previous comments on using Mind Bolt as written in PF.

[elecgraystone]

The other thing, as I have pointed out a number of times, is that there isn't much of anything that's immune to it.
Unlike Pyrokinesis.

But mind bolt isn't the only power like that. But there are other powers, like TK acceleration attack, that do attacks that there " isn't much of anything that's immune to it". mindbolt just costs a heck of a lot more. Or how about telekinesis(super)? You do as much physical damage, at the same range with a 200lbs object and you can keep hitting them for 2 min per level for only 20 isp! Plus, your enemies don't see were you are attacking from, which seems i much better "sniping" tool than mind bolt.

Depends on your time-frame and how much ISP you have. As long as you're dishing out damage faster than they can repair it, you're winning.

Not very likely. While it has nice range for a psi attack power, vs. modern weapons, not so much.

Which is why it's kind of silly to claim that a power is useless; characters and circumstances vary too much for that claim to be very accurate.

I never claimed it useless. Just a very sub-optimal pick for a super in almost every way. Can you find a way to make it shine? sure you can. You just really have to work at it and IMO most time it would be worth all the effort. After thinking about it more, all mindbolt really has going for it is the possibility of a +8 strike to use in called shots.

does you rule that the mind bolt is visible or invisible?

I see it as being invisible

It shouldn't be any more or less visible than pyrokinesis. Neither power states that it's effects are invisible. If mind bolt WERE invisible that would be something important that would/should be noted in the text of the power. Nothing under the power mind bolt states that it's invisible.

Mind Bolt is a Super Psionic. There are non-Super psionics that are more powerful than the RUE's version. Take TK Acceleration

RUE and GMG states that it is NOW a super Psionic. The old listing in psyscape is outdated.

[Library Ogre]

Mind Bolt is a Super Psionic. There are non-Super psionics that are more powerful than the RUE's version. Take TK Acceleration, it's a physical psionic, and for 20 ISP, does 3d6+4 MD. Granted that it's range is short, half that of mind bolt at level 1, but does more than double the damage.

Actually, the canon has TK Acceleration attack being a Super Psionic; has since the GMG.

[Grell]

Okay, Mind bolt does 2d4 MD with your mind, but pyrokinesis lets you do 6d6 MD with your mind for less ISP. Psi-sword does a lot more damage per hit, but has a duration, so the ISP/damage ratio is even more skewed.

What I'm saying, is that by leaving Mind bolt, and to a lesser extent TK acceleartion unchanged, with the power creep that has occurred, good or bad, they've become irrelevant powers.

It was a player I'm gaming with who really pointed this out to me. He's playing a mind melter, and they have limitations on the numbers of super psionics they can take as they level. He argued, quite persuasively, that there's no good reason for anyone to select mind bolt as a power.

TK body field was mentioned as another power costing too much for what you get, but at least it scales with leveling so that you get more for the cost.

Well, don't forget that with Mind Bolt, the attack is untraceable to its source. That's a real big advantage and well worth the ISP cost. (sorry if someone else covered this point)

[Nekira Sudacne]

Okay, Mind bolt does 2d4 MD with your mind, but pyrokinesis lets you do 6d6 MD with your mind for less ISP. Psi-sword does a lot more damage per hit, but has a duration, so the ISP/damage ratio is even more skewed.

What I'm saying, is that by leaving Mind bolt, and to a lesser extent TK acceleartion unchanged, with the power creep that has occurred, good or bad, they've become irrelevant powers.

It was a player I'm gaming with who really pointed this out to me. He's playing a mind melter, and they have limitations on the numbers of super psionics they can take as they level. He argued, quite persuasively, that there's no good reason for anyone to select mind bolt as a power.

TK body field was mentioned as another power costing too much for what you get, but at least it scales with leveling so that you get more for the cost.

Well, don't forget that with Mind Bolt, the attack is untraceable to its source. That's a real big advantage and well worth the ISP cost. (sorry if someone else covered this point)

how's it untraceable?

[Killer Cyborg]

The other thing, as I have pointed out a number of times, is that there isn't much of anything that's immune to it.
Unlike Pyrokinesis.

But mind bolt isn't the only power like that. But there are other powers, like TK acceleration attack, that do attacks that there " isn't much of anything that's immune to it".

Actually, there's quite a bit of stuff that is immune to standard physical attacks.

Besides, TKAA is a new power and a clear example of power creep.
At least they scaled it back a bit by making it a Super psionic power.

mindbolt just costs a heck of a lot more. Or how about telekinesis(super)? You do as much physical damage, at the same range with a 200lbs object and you can keep hitting them for 2 min per level for only 20 isp! Plus, your enemies don't see were you are attacking from, which seems i much better "sniping" tool than mind bolt.

Really?
What's the range on TK?
Because range and accuracy are the most important factors in sniping.

And, of course, it relies on there being large objects around for you to work with.
And, of course, it's easier to dodge.

Depends on your time-frame and how much ISP you have. As long as you're dishing out damage faster than they can repair it, you're winning.

Not very likely. While it has nice range for a psi attack power, vs. modern weapons, not so much.

Somehow it seems that you're not quite grokking the situation.
Yes, modern weapons are good for sniping.
But energy weapons act like tracer rounds; they can be used to help locate the shooter.
This doesn't happen with Mind Bolt.
And there's no report or sonic boom from the attack either.

But my point wasn't that Mind Bolt is the perfect sniper weapon, only that it's a pretty decent one, and that it's far superior to PK for that purpose.

Which is why it's kind of silly to claim that a power is useless; characters and circumstances vary too much for that claim to be very accurate.

I never claimed it useless.

I never claimed that you did.

Just a very sub-optimal pick for a super in almost every way. Can you find a way to make it shine? sure you can. You just really have to work at it and IMO most time it would be worth all the effort. After thinking about it more, all mindbolt really has going for it is the possibility of a +8 strike to use in called shots.

Except for all the other stuff that I keep pointing out.

Nothing under the power mind bolt states that it's invisible.

IIRC, it's not invisible, but it is fairly transparent and hard to see.

[Talavar]

I may be placing too much importance on ISP cost:Damage output, but it's also a question of power choices. You have a finite number of super-psionics available, and it's hard to justify Mind bolt as one of them for these reasons.

If mind bolt is invisible, that would make it more justifiable, but I see no reason to assume that it is. It's psychic energy after all, just like a psi-sword - which is easily visible by its bright, colourful glow.

I personally am leaning towards adapting the Palladium fantasy rules mind bolt, but with damage as MD. It's not exactly cannon, but I've never really understood why most spells/psionics are a direct SDC:MDC conversion, and others got tinkered with.

[verdilak]

it's just not one of the areas where power creep set in.

So you mean that instead of power creeping it, or leaving it a straight conversion, they nerfed it.

does you rule that the mind bolt is visible or invisible?

I see it as being invisible

It shouldn't be any more or less visible than pyrokinesis. Neither power states that it's effects are invisible. If mind bolt WERE invisible that would be something important that would/should be noted in the text of the power. Nothing under the power mind bolt states that it's invisible.

The fact that it doesn't say one way or the other means its up the GM to decide, though since it explicitly states how the energy showsup in psi-sword and shield, that makes me think that psychic energy is invisible. Otherwise, at the begining of the psychic section, it would state that the energy shows up a certain color, or a certain color based on mood, or some such.

Mind Bolt is a Super Psionic. There are non-Super psionics that are more powerful than the RUE's version. Take TK Acceleration

RUE and GMG states that it is NOW a super Psionic. The old listing in psyscape is outdated.[/quote]

That doesn't help people that doesn't have those books, now does it.

[elecgraystone]

Actually, there's quite a bit of stuff that is immune to standard physical attacks.

The nice thing about TK acceleration IS the ability to talior your damage with the "ammo" you use. While a vamp may be immune to normal physical damage, a wood pencil can stake him in the heart. Or how about 12 vials of holy water for some real damage. Silver coins for a were-creature. Salt packets for faries. the list goes on. And none of these have any real weight/space concerns, so pack up a utility belt with special materials and away you go.

Besides, TKAA is a new power and a clear example of power creep.
At least they scaled it back a bit by making it a Super psionic power.

Can't argue with you there. That is part of the point of this thread. Mindbolt is at the starting gate, asleep, after the race started.

Really?
What's the range on TK?

Same as mind bolt, 100'/level.

Because range and accuracy are the most important factors in sniping.

How about a really untraceable attack? The log you were sitting on just starts smacking you in the head. And you can keep smacking him until the log is destroyed. (then pick something else up.

And, of course, it relies on there being large objects around for you to work with.

Unless you are in the desert or something, a 200 pound object isn't real hard to find. Any old tree will do (or part of one). Plus is scales up with the weight. For the same cost as the +8 strike mindbolt, it can do 5D4M per hit for 2 min per level.

And, of course, it's easier to dodge.

True, but you have more times to try to hit per power use since the telekinesis lasts for a duration and you don't give away your position using it.

Somehow it seems that you're not quite grokking the situation.
Yes, modern weapons are good for sniping.
But energy weapons act like tracer rounds; they can be used to help locate the shooter.
This doesn't happen with Mind Bolt.
And there's no report or sonic boom from the attack either.

Nothing states that a mind bolt is any more or less noticeable than a weapon attack. Lasers are in fact 100% silent.

But my point wasn't that Mind Bolt is the perfect sniper weapon, only that it's a pretty decent one, and that it's far superior to PK for that purpose.

I assume you mean TK? if you do then i don't agree. The ability to STAY in your sniper position and continue attacking far outweighs the smaller to hit chance. The only time mind bolt is better is if you are trying to one shot kill someone without armor. If you can't kill the target in one shot, tk (super) wins hands down IMO.

Except for all the other stuff that I keep pointing out.

All of the other stuff can be done with other powers at a better isp to damage ratio. It's perfect for sniping sdc targets and very low mdc(8 or less) targets. That's it

That doesn't help people that doesn't have those books, now does it.

Sure it does. Now they know it's a super and they can move the listing.

The fact that it doesn't say one way or the other means its up the GM to decide<if it's invisible>

IIRC, it's not invisible, but it is fairly transparent and hard to see.

I'll have to disagree with both of you. There is a palladium mechanic for a barely visible attack. Look of the create force field super power pg#271 HU and look at the bolts of force attack. "because they are barely visible, opponents are minus -4 to parry and dodge force bolts. Since there are NO minuses to parry/dodge it, it must be as visible as any other attack.

[Blue Eyes]

here are my thoughts

i think that the powers of mind bolt and tk acceleration, when compared to other psionic powers in the game, are out of proportion. while it is valid to compare psionic powers to other power categories of the game, like spellcasting or even modern weapons, and then conclude that something seems out of place or disproportionate is okay cause its true, but that in itself does not mean it should be changed, or at least thats not what i think.
my problem with the psionic powers is not that they arent as powerfull as spellmagic for example, my problem is that the powers, when compared to each other are out of proportion, i dont see balance. i believe that the amount of isp you should spend for a power should have some kind of proportion when compared to other powers in the same category.

tk acceleration: originally this was a physical psionic power, and i am glad that it was moved into the super category which is where i believe it belongs. spending 20 isp to do 3d6+4MD with a relatively short range is actually okay with me. as someone wrote in a post above, its also possible to use different kinds of "ammo", like silver to damage vampires or similar. the damage inflicted seems to be in line with other powers presented, like electrokinesis that can inflict 3d6MD at the cost of 18 isp, although at a shorter range. the fireball from pyrokinesis does 6d6MD for 25isp at about half the range when compared to tk acceleration. that seems balanced to me.

mind bolt: i think this power is disproportionate or unbalanced when compared to the other super powers presented. being able to do 2d4MD by spending 40isp is simply disproportionate/unbalanced. the primary function of this power seems to be to inflict damage, and provide bonuses to strike. since those are the primary, quite possibly the only functions of the power shouldnt it exceed the other powers presented or at least match them? another thing i find missing with this power is the "per level" aspect, i find it odd that a power like psi-sword does additional damage per level and that this power does not, just a thought.
i dont buy the argument that mind bolt was intended as a "sniping" power or even that it is particularly good for it, the range is only 30,5m per level. the +8 to strike can be used when calling shots yes, but then again, only at ranges where the psychic can actually see what he is aiming for. a 10th level psychic shooting a mind bolt at 305m range after a small or tiny target must have exceptional eyesight, otherwise he cant see what he is aiming for. overall i think this power should be changed, not because it isnt "power creep" enough, but because i dont think it holds water when compared to other super psionic powers.

possible solution: there are two the way i see it.
number one is to lower the cost of the mind bolt, i dont think it HAS to do more damage, but the cost of using it should be lowered to 4-12 isp for SDC damage and 15-20 isp for MD.
number two is to use the description presented in palladium fantasy and then simply convert it to do mega-damage. this would mean the same range, but the damage would be 1d6MD for every 6 isp spend, strike bonus is raised to +8 for an additional 10 isp. there is no level cap, if the character wants t spend 120 isp in one attack with the possibility of doing 2d6*10MD then that is their choice.

i use option number two with the house ruling that the psychic can inflict 1d6SDC damage for every 3 isp spend, also with the option of spending additional isp to improve the strike bonus.

that was what i have to say

BE

[elecgraystone]

here are my thoughts

I got to say, i agree with your post 100%

]u]possible solution[/u]: there are two the way i see it.
number one is to lower the cost of the mind bolt, i dont think it HAS to do more damage, but the cost of using it should be lowered to 4-12 isp for SDC damage and 15-20 isp for MD.
number two is to use the description presented in palladium fantasy and then simply convert it to do mega-damage. this would mean the same range, but the damage would be 1d6MD for every 6 isp spend, strike bonus is raised to +8 for an additional 10 isp. there is no level cap, if the character wants t spend 120 isp in one attack with the possibility of doing 2d6*10MD then that is their choice.

i use option number two with the house ruling that the psychic can inflict 1d6SDC damage for every 3 isp spend, also with the option of spending additional isp to improve the strike bonus.

that was what i have to say

BE

option #1 seems to be the solution that works best for me. IMO, that's the fix that best suits my play style and keeps the power in line with the power level and cost of other powers. It's a much better way of fixing the power than i had in mind. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually, there's quite a bit of stuff that is immune to standard physical attacks.

The nice thing about TK acceleration IS the ability to talior your damage with the "ammo" you use.

Yes, if you have such things available and know what to use against what creature.
It's a very nice feature indeed.

The nice thing about mind bolt is that it hurts pretty much everything, without having to carry extra stuff around and without even knowing what you're facing.

Besides, TKAA is a new power and a clear example of power creep.
At least they scaled it back a bit by making it a Super psionic power.

Can't argue with you there. That is part of the point of this thread. Mindbolt is at the starting gate, asleep, after the race started.

Right, but:
a) It still stacks up pretty well, although not as well as it used to.
b) The "race" is incredibly stupid and counterproductive to the game. It's on of the biggest problems with Rifts, and it's something that needs to be fixed, not catered to. You don't need to fix Mind Bolt; you need to fix the rest of the crap that's become overpowered.

Really?
What's the range on TK?

Same as mind bolt, 100'/level.

Because range and accuracy are the most important factors in sniping.

How about a really untraceable attack? The log you were sitting on just starts smacking you in the head. And you can keep smacking him until the log is destroyed. (then pick something else up.

You already said this, remember?
Which is when I asked about the range, since I wasn't near my books.
The range is 100'/level, same as Mind Bolt, so yes Super TK can be used at the same ranges as Mind Bolt.
If there's heavy stuff lying around, that's a great option.
If there's not, then it's not.

(Although I think that Super TK is overpowered. If 100 lbs does 1d4x10 SDC against SDC targets, then it shouldn't do 10x as much against MDC targets; it doesn't make any real sense.)

And, of course, it relies on there being large objects around for you to work with.

Unless you are in the desert or something, a 200 pound object isn't real hard to find. Any old tree will do (or part of one). Plus is scales up with the weight. For the same cost as the +8 strike mindbolt, it can do 5D4M per hit for 2 min per level.

And If you ARE in the desert, or the ocean, or the sky, or the astral plane, or in a large, empty room, or space, or any number of other environments, THEN you have nothing to work with.
And no, not just any old tree will do; it has to be at least 200 lbs to match the damage of Mind Bolt. Small trees, shrubs, etc. won't do.

And, of course, it's easier to dodge.

True, but you have more times to try to hit per power use since the telekinesis lasts for a duration and you don't give away your position using it.

Also true.

Somehow it seems that you're not quite grokking the situation.
Yes, modern weapons are good for sniping.
But energy weapons act like tracer rounds; they can be used to help locate the shooter.
This doesn't happen with Mind Bolt.
And there's no report or sonic boom from the attack either.

Nothing states that a mind bolt is any more or less noticeable than a weapon attack.

Actually, I believe it's been stated that mind bolts are semi-transparent.
I'll let you know if I find the source of this.

Lasers are in fact 100% silent.

Of course, but they're extremely visible (in the game world).

But my point wasn't that Mind Bolt is the perfect sniper weapon, only that it's a pretty decent one, and that it's far superior to PK for that purpose.

I assume you mean TK?

No, I mean PK.
PyroKinesis.
Because it was claimed that the PK Fireball is so much better than Mind Bolt.
It IS, under certain circumstances.
Under other circumstances, Mind Bolt is the better power.

Except for all the other stuff that I keep pointing out.

All of the other stuff can be done with other powers at a better isp to damage ratio. It's perfect for sniping sdc targets and very low mdc(8 or less) targets. That's it.

No other power has the same combination of advantages that Mind Bolt has.
Yes, if you have Super TK, Psi-Sword, and Pyrokinesis, then you probably won't need Mind Bolt very much.
But if you have only one of those powers, then Mind Bolt can still come in pretty handy.

The fact that it doesn't say one way or the other means its up the GM to decide<if it's invisible>

IIRC, it's not invisible, but it is fairly transparent and hard to see.

I'll have to disagree with both of you. There is a palladium mechanic for a barely visible attack. Look of the create force field super power pg#271 HU and look at the bolts of force attack. "because they are barely visible, opponents are minus -4 to parry and dodge force bolts. Since there are NO minuses to parry/dodge it, it must be as visible as any other attack.

It may be that I was confusing that power with Mind Bolt.
I'll do some looking and get back to you.

[Killer Cyborg]

i dont buy the argument that mind bolt was intended as a "sniping" power

I don't know that anybody has made the claim that it was intended as a sniping weapon.
But it sure has better range than most other psionic powers and most spells.

or even that it is particularly good for it, the range is only 30,5m per level. the +8 to strike can be used when calling shots yes, but then again, only at ranges where the psychic can actually see what he is aiming for. a 10th level psychic shooting a mind bolt at 305m range after a small or tiny target must have exceptional eyesight, otherwise he cant see what he is aiming for.

Unless he has a scope, or telescope, or binoculars, or is aiming at a large target.

overall i think this power should be changed, not because it isnt "power creep" enough, but because i dont think it holds water when compared to other super psionic powers.

That's a fair opinion to have as long as you're comparing it to the other powers in the main book.
If you're comparing it to TK Accelleration, or even the newer versions of the other powers, then it's not a great claim to make because those are all power creep.

[Blue Eyes]

hello

KC i agree with you on the point that Rifts has become more and more unbalanced and that "power creep" has been leaking into the game-books since around WB 14 - New West in particular, to some degree even earlier. but rather than being stuck in the past, arguing that everything since WB 14 or even before has to be powered back down, which seems to be the theme of many of your posts, i think it is a better solution to move on.

when you (KC) write:
"That's a fair opinion to have as long as you're comparing it to the other powers in the main book.
If you're comparing it to TK Accelleration, or even the newer versions of the other powers, then it's not a great claim to make because those are all power creep."

i have the folllowing comment: i am comparing it to the powers in the old book, but i am also comparing the power to new psionics like tk acceleration attack as they are presented in RUE, because that is what reality looks like now, its canon, and i feel/argue that mind bolt always has been and still is unbalanced when compared to other super psionics (for the reasons i stated in my eralier post). that is really all i have to say about that, c ya

BE

[elecgraystone]

Yes, if you have such things available and know what to use against what creature.
It's a very nice feature indeed.

The nice thing about mind bolt is that it hurts pretty much everything, without having to carry extra stuff around and without even knowing what you're facing..

Since coins work, 6 pennies don't really weight much. You can carry all the possible special "ammo's) you'll ever need.

Right, but:
a) It still stacks up pretty well, although not as well as it used to.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
b

) The "race" is incredibly stupid and counterproductive to the game. It's on of the biggest problems with Rifts, and it's something that needs to be fixed, not catered to. You don't need to fix Mind Bolt; you need to fix the rest of the crap that's become overpowered.

Again, i'll agree to disagree. How can you really have better or worse gear/powers when you're only dealing with damages from 1d6 to 2d6? A greater spread make sense IMO.

(Although I think that Super TK is overpowered. If 100 lbs does 1d4x10 SDC against SDC targets, then it shouldn't do 10x as much against MDC targets; it doesn't make any real sense.)

It may not make logical sense, it works fine to make it a useful powe IMO.

And If you ARE in the desert, or the ocean, or the sky, or the astral plane, or in a large, empty room, or space, or any number of other environments, THEN you have nothing to work with.
And no, not just any old tree will do; it has to be at least 200 lbs to match the damage of Mind Bolt. Small trees, shrubs, etc. won't do.

Well that goes without saying. of course it has to fall within the weight limit.

Actually, I believe it's been stated that mind bolts are semi-transparent.
I'll let you know if I find the source of this.

It may be that I was confusing that power with Mind Bolt.
I'll do some looking and get back to you.

Please do. If it is in fact that way i'd like to know.

No, I mean PK.
PyroKinesis.
Because it was claimed that the PK Fireball is so much better than Mind Bolt.
It IS, under certain circumstances.
Under other circumstances, Mind Bolt is the better power.

can't disagree with you here. There ARE some cases mindbolt would be better. I just think the isp cost is too high (not that is does too little damage).

No other power has the same combination of advantages that Mind Bolt has.
Yes, if you have Super TK, Psi-Sword, and Pyrokinesis, then you probably won't need Mind Bolt very much.
But if you have only one of those powers, then Mind Bolt can still come in pretty handy.

Yes mind bolt has it's own advantages and disadvantages. That goes without saying. However i'd disagree with it as a pick if i only had one of "Super TK, Psi-Sword, and Pyrokinesis" or TK acceleration attack, i'd pick another of those.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yes, if you have such things available and know what to use against what creature.
It's a very nice feature indeed.

The nice thing about mind bolt is that it hurts pretty much everything, without having to carry extra stuff around and without even knowing what you're facing..

Since coins work, 6 pennies don't really weight much. You can carry all the possible special "ammo's) you'll ever need.

You really think they still mint pennies in Rifts Earth?

But yes, of course you can carry some sort of small objects (some low tech kingdoms do indeed use coins).
And as long as everything goes according to plan, you can toss these on the ground (or in the air) and TKA them at somebody.
But if you're captured and stripped of objects, then you're screwed.
If you're magic netted and can't move your arms enough to reach your money pouch, you're screwed.
If you're paralyzed, you're screwed.
There are any number of situations where you might not be able to access the objects that you need for TKA, but you don't need anything for Mind Bolt.
A lot of the time this won't matter, but other times it will be a significant advantage.

) The "race" is incredibly stupid and counterproductive to the game. It's on of the biggest problems with Rifts, and it's something that needs to be fixed, not catered to. You don't need to fix Mind Bolt; you need to fix the rest of the crap that's become overpowered.

Again, i'll agree to disagree. How can you really have better or worse gear/powers when you're only dealing with damages from 1d6 to 2d6? A greater spread make sense IMO.

You don't seem to get power creep.
Power creep isn't a variety in power levels; it's a steady increase in the power level of the average character.
Look at dinosaurs.
That's not adding a gear; it's replacing a perfectly good gear with a rocket.

(Although I think that Super TK is overpowered. If 100 lbs does 1d4x10 SDC against SDC targets, then it shouldn't do 10x as much against MDC targets; it doesn't make any real sense.)

It may not make logical sense, it works fine to make it a useful power IMO.

1. If it doesn't make logical sense, then it's not fine.
2. If you can't see a use for super TK other than bashing people for mega-damage, then I think we'll swiftly run out of things to say to each other.

[qutoe]

And If you ARE in the desert, or the ocean, or the sky, or the astral plane, or in a large, empty room, or space, or any number of other environments, THEN you have nothing to work with.
And no, not just any old tree will do; it has to be at least 200 lbs to match the damage of Mind Bolt. Small trees, shrubs, etc. won't do.

Well that goes without saying. of course it has to fall within the weight limit.[/quote]

Just pointing out that your statement wasn't accurate.
Now that you've agreed, no need for us to dwell on this one.

No, I mean PK.
PyroKinesis.
Because it was claimed that the PK Fireball is so much better than Mind Bolt.
It IS, under certain circumstances.
Under other circumstances, Mind Bolt is the better power.

can't disagree with you here. There ARE some cases mindbolt would be better. I just think the isp cost is too high (not that is does too little damage).

And I can't argue too hard against that point.
It's an expensive power to use, and it wouldn't break the game to make it a bit cheaper.

No other power has the same combination of advantages that Mind Bolt has.
Yes, if you have Super TK, Psi-Sword, and Pyrokinesis, then you probably won't need Mind Bolt very much.
But if you have only one of those powers, then Mind Bolt can still come in pretty handy.

Yes mind bolt has it's own advantages and disadvantages. That goes without saying. However i'd disagree with it as a pick if i only had one of "Super TK, Psi-Sword, and Pyrokinesis" or TK acceleration attack, i'd pick another of those.

That's your choice.
Depending on the character I had in mind, I might do the same.
Or I might go for Mind Bolt.
Or I might go for Hydrokinesis or some other power.
Variety is the spice of life.

[elecgraystone]

But if you're captured and stripped of objects, then you're screwed...

If you got captured and they know you use psionics, they can blindfold you AND take your stuff. If they were clever enouph to catch you to start off, a mind bolt isn't going to help

If you're magic netted and can't move your arms enough to reach your money pouch, you're screwed.

If you can't move enouph to do that, then your foe moves out of your line of sight and no mindbolt.

If you're paralyzed, you're screwed.

If your paralyzed, your just plain screwed anyway. One mind bolt isn't going to kill anything and all someone has to do is get out of your line of sight. All mindbolt does is get you one extra attack.

There are any number of situations where you might not be able to access the objects that you need for TKA, but you don't need anything for Mind Bolt.

Most of the situations that would stop TKA prove almost as bad for mind bolt.

A lot of the time this won't matter, but other times it will be a significant advantage.

There can be times when you can't find stuff to use in a TKA attack, but the Gm would really have to go out of his way to do it.

You don't seem to get power creep.
Power creep isn't a variety in power levels; it's a steady increase in the power level of the average character.
Look at dinosaurs.
That's not adding a gear; it's replacing a perfectly good gear with a rocket.

I see some of the power creep as a GOOD thing. As i said, with EVERY pistol doing 1d6 to 2d6M how much variety can you have? Now all that needs done is to normalize some of the older abilities/powers/weapons and everything would be fine.

1. If it doesn't make logical sense, then it's not fine.

It's a game. Not everything has to make sense. Some things are done for playability rather than strict scientific logic.

2. If you can't see a use for super TK other than bashing people for mega-damage, then I think we'll swiftly run out of things to say to each other.

There are plenty of other uses for it, but what do they have do do with a debate on mind bolt doing too little damage for it's ISP cost?

. And I can't argue too hard against that point.
It's an expensive power to use, and it wouldn't break the game to make it a bit cheaper.

This has been my main point. It's a fine power. works great. Has lots of uses. It just costs so darn much that it's just not worth picking it unless you have a HUGE ISP base. You just get more out of the other psionic attack powers.

That's your choice.
Depending on the character I had in mind, I might do the same.
Or I might go for Mind Bolt.
Or I might go for Hydrokinesis or some other power.
Variety is the spice of life.

but you ignore my point. I like the power. I'd pick it in a heartbeat if if could compete with the other powers. there just isn't a way to justify it's large cost vs. it's advantages.

[Killer Cyborg]

But if you're captured and stripped of objects, then you're screwed...

If you got captured and they know you use psionics, they can blindfold you AND take your stuff. If they were clever enouph to catch you to start off, a mind bolt isn't going to help

IF they know you have psionics, then they can certainly blindfold you.
Then it's up to the GM to figure out how literally the "visible target" part of the power description is.
Will a faint outline seen through cloth count?
Will a target detected through Presense Sense or See Aura or another psychic power work?
Is that part even meant literally? If so, the power is useless for any race without eyes (although that's possible).
If the GM takes the hard road, you're screwed. Just like with other the other powers.

Of course, there are ways to get a blindfold to shift, if nobody's watching you 24/7. In which case, Mind Bolt works again.

The point isn't that Mind Bolt can't be stopped; the point is that there are plenty of circumstances where TK Acceleration is useless, but Mind Bolt is not.

If you're magic netted and can't move your arms enough to reach your money pouch, you're screwed.

If you can't move enouph to do that, then your foe moves out of your line of sight and no mindbolt.

I think you mean, IF you can't move enough to do that, and IF your foe moves out of your line of sight, then no mindbolt.
Which is true.

Again, the point isn't that Mind Bolt can't be stopped; the point is that there are plenty of circumstances where TK Acceleration is useless, but Mind Bolt is not.

If you're paralyzed, you're screwed.

If your paralyzed, your just plain screwed anyway. One mind bolt isn't going to kill anything and all someone has to do is get out of your line of sight. All mindbolt does is get you one extra attack.

Against an SDC foe, or a very light MDC for, or against a wounded foe, then it can make all the difference in the world.
And yes, "all they have to do is get out of your line of sight", but that isn't always something that can be done in one attack, especially if there are other members of your party still up and fighting (or if you're in a long hall, or any number of other situations that are easily thought of).

There are any number of situations where you might not be able to access the objects that you need for TKA, but you don't need anything for Mind Bolt.

Most of the situations that would stop TKA prove almost as bad for mind bolt.

Actually, not having access to objects doesn't interfere with Mind Bolt at all.

A lot of the time this won't matter, but other times it will be a significant advantage.

There can be times when you can't find stuff to use in a TKA attack, but the Gm would really have to go out of his way to do it.

Not really.
-Astral Travel
-Indoors in a clean environment
-In Space
-Underwater

You don't seem to get power creep.
Power creep isn't a variety in power levels; it's a steady increase in the power level of the average character.
Look at dinosaurs.
That's not adding a gear; it's replacing a perfectly good gear with a rocket.

I see some of the power creep as a GOOD thing. As i said, with EVERY pistol doing 1d6 to 2d6M how much variety can you have? Now all that needs done is to normalize some of the older abilities/powers/weapons and everything would be fine.

First of all, if you actually look at the main book you should notice that not every pistol DID 1d6-2d6 MD.
Second, there was quite a bit of variety.
The Wilk's 320 only did 1d6 MD, but it had a +2 strike bonus.
The C-18 did more damage (2d4 MD) but it didn't have a strike bonus.
The NG-Super did 2d4 MD, didn't have any bonus to strike, and had a grenade launcher, but also required a certain level of strength to use.
The NG-57 did 3d6 per shot, but had lousy range in comparison to the weaker guns.
And different guns had different ammo capacities and other factors too.
There are plenty of ways that a good writer can get variety without constantly increasing the power levels.

1. If it doesn't make logical sense, then it's not fine.

It's a game. Not everything has to make sense. Some things are done for playability rather than strict scientific logic.

I can agree with that.
This is not one of those times. Super TK is just as playable if it sticks with the standard SDC:MDC ratio as it is with the jacked-up damage rating.
It's not as deadly, but Deadliness does not = Playability.

2. If you can't see a use for super TK other than bashing people for mega-damage, then I think we'll swiftly run out of things to say to each other.

There are plenty of other uses for it, but what do they have do do with a debate on mind bolt doing too little damage for it's ISP cost?

This is a side conversation, discussing your claim that the ability to do 1d4 MD per 100 lbs "makes TK a useful power", and the reasons why that claim is inaccurate.
Retreating back to the overall topic doesn't really support your claim.

. And I can't argue too hard against that point.
It's an expensive power to use, and it wouldn't break the game to make it a bit cheaper.

This has been my main point. It's a fine power. works great. Has lots of uses. It just costs so darn much that it's just not worth picking it unless you have a HUGE ISP base. You just get more out of the other psionic attack powers.

Depending on the situation.

That's your choice.
Depending on the character I had in mind, I might do the same.
Or I might go for Mind Bolt.
Or I might go for Hydrokinesis or some other power.
Variety is the spice of life.

but you ignore my point. I like the power. I'd pick it in a heartbeat if if could compete with the other powers. there just isn't a way to justify it's large cost vs. it's advantages.

Sure there is.
Having Mind Bolt in certain situations can save your life, or at least let you inflict damage that you otherwise could not inflict.

[Killer Cyborg]

OMG, "Wall o' Quotes"!!!!!


Please, knock it off, I'm begging you. And I thought Sub liked to quote! There has to be some way to organize your posts that's not so hard on the eyes.

~Semi

Not that I've found, no.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

From the submissions for Psionics Unlimited, you might not agree with them, but there are alternatives...

Mind Bolt
Range: 100 feet (30m) per level of experience
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: None
ISP: Varies (Up to 1 I.S.P. per level of experience)

The psychic can focus his psionic energy into powerful bolts of mental force and fire them with amazing accuracy. Depending on the willpower of the psychic generating the mind bolt, the potential damage of the attack can vary greatly.

M.E. Attribute Damage Per I.S.P. spent:

10 or Less 1
11 to 20 1D4
21 to 30 1D6
31+ 2D4

Damage is S.D.C. or M.D.C.

Due to mastery over their psionic powers, mind bolts created by Mind Melters inflict an additional +1 point of damage per I.S.P. spent. All Mind Bolts are +4 to strike, but by spending an additional 4 I.S.P. this bonus can be raised to +8.

I like this one over than the first alternative you posted and far more than the original Mind Bolt power. The first alternative is too much like Energy Expulsion: Mind Bolt and the original is like ISP Toilet Flush. This is a nice middle ground, IMO.

[elecgraystone]

Of course, there are ways to get a blindfold to shift, if nobody's watching you 24/7. In which case, Mind Bolt works again.

Just as there are ways around not having materials for the TKA. why not shot the guard with his own set of keys, a hail of buttons ect.

The point isn't that Mind Bolt can't be stopped; the point is that there are plenty of circumstances where TK Acceleration is useless, but Mind Bolt is not.

Yes, mindbolt can be stopped.

Again, the point isn't that Mind Bolt can't be stopped; the point is that there are plenty of circumstances where TK Acceleration is useless, but Mind Bolt is not.

No, not really.

Against an SDC foe, or a very light MDC for, or against a wounded foe, then it can make all the difference in the world.
And yes, "all they have to do is get out of your line of sight", but that isn't always something that can be done in one attack, especially if there are other members of your party still up and fighting (or if you're in a long hall, or any number of other situations that are easily thought of).

You are putting a lot of IF'S together to make so you could get mindbolt attacks. Most of the times you point out are just as bad for mind bolt . And against "an SDC foe, or a very light MDC for, or against a wounded foe" well at 50 isp per shot you better make that shot count. If you've been in a fight long enouph to wound a foe enouph to get him in kill range with a mind bolt you'd be out of ISP. And any SDC or very light mdc foe really isn't much of a threat anyway. Anyone like that is asking to be one shoted.

And in MOST cases, getting out of line of sight isn't a problem

Actually, not having access to objects doesn't interfere with Mind Bolt at all.

You did see i said most. If you come up with that perfect place and time were there are no objects in the area and you have been striped naked, sure it's better.

Not really.
-Astral Travel

At 670mph, you only get 1 attack till the target's out of range and in the astral plane, attacks deal sdc, so you aren't going to kill then in one hit. If astral travel is something you do often, use astral bolt instead.

-Indoors in a clean environment
-In Space
-Underwater

You forgot you'd have to be in those areas AND striped naked. That falls under the "Gm would really have to go out of his way to do it".

There are plenty of ways that a good writer can get variety without constantly increasing the power levels.

Well they didn't use any of them. and now normal pistols go from 1D6 to 5D6M. That's just the way it is and i can't say i'm upset with it.

I can agree with that.
This is not one of those times. Super TK is just as playable if it sticks with the standard SDC:MDC ratio as it is with the jacked-up damage rating.
It's not as deadly, but Deadliness does not = Playability.

No, if you use the "standard SDC:MDC ratio" it wouldn't be very SUPER would it?

This is a side conversation, discussing your claim that the ability to do 1d4 MD per 100 lbs "makes TK a useful power", and the reasons why that claim is inaccurate.
Retreating back to the overall topic doesn't really support your claim.

You miss my point 100% again. super TK is a better and more playable power than mind bolt if ALL it was deal damage. With everything else if can do, mind bolt doesn't even come close.

Depending on the situation.

This is were we disagree. IMO MOST times.

Sure there is.
Having Mind Bolt in certain situations can save your life, or at least let you inflict damage that you otherwise could not inflict.

That may be but those time are so few and far between, how can you justify picking it over a power that will save your life in MORE situations and at a lower ISP cost? I just can't.

ok here is a situation were mindbolt is or at least was better than pk or tk
and it is when facing someone that is astrally projecting, that is coexisting.

for example that cs psi that scouts your camp.

what are you going to hit him with to keep him from reporting back?

The answer is nothing. At best the mind bolt does 6d6SDC (All astral damage is SDC), but the cs psi has a sdc total of (HP+SDC)X2 and moves 670MPH. Sure you can get him to move along, but so would astral bolt and that cost you a lot less ISP.

OMG, "Wall o' Quotes"!!!!!


Please, knock it off, I'm begging you. And I thought Sub liked to quote! There has to be some way to organize your posts that's not so hard on the eyes.

~Semi

I'm sorry if this format bothers you but there really isn't a better way to debate. You have points and counterpoints. If the person makes several points, you have several counterpoints, ect. the only other way would be a seperate post per point, but that becomes unweildly quickly and would be MORE of a mess. I have to agree i haven't found a better way.

[Noon]

It'd be interesting to make mind bolt have X number of free uses each day. After that it's standard ISP costs.

That way you get a mix of powers - you don't see just one attack over and over.

Not that it addresses the original point - the player had dismissed it as presented. Changing the power doesn't change that, of course. But it is an interesting option.

[elecgraystone]

It'd be interesting to make mind bolt have X number of free uses each day. After that it's standard ISP costs.

That way you get a mix of powers - you don't see just one attack over and over.

Not that it addresses the original point - the player had dismissed it as presented. Changing the power doesn't change that, of course. But it is an interesting option.

I'm playing around with the idea of giving mind bolt a duration, say 1 melee round per level. You'd also pay the extra 10 to get the extra +4 for every bolt you wanted it on. That brings it's power more in line with the other attack powers without having to change much else with the power. IMO that would make it worth while enouph to justify picking it.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Is Psionics Unlimited being hosted anywhere now? I found a partially cached version of it on the net, but the original link is dead.

[elecgraystone]

then there are those (like me) who feel that just because you're a 1st level Pyro-K you shouldn't be able to do more damage than a 9th level Mind Melter.

It's not the damage vs other damage abilities that i don't like. It's the damage AND the isp cost. A pyro IMO shouldn't be able to do MORE damage for LESS ISP AND do all the other extra stuff. If they were the same ISP cost (and pryo didn't have all the extra's), the damage for mind bolt would be fine when you take into acount it's awesome range. (30'+2'/level vs 100'/level) When ALL the power does is damage, it should be better than the other powers in some way(IE better damage, less ISP cost, able to uses for a duration, better range ect) but it doesn't do any of those things. super TK has the same range, MUCH lower ISP cost, a duration and scalable damage plus you can do things other than combat.

personally, I think that's why many people opt to bring in super-powers into Rifts, because the powers are over-the-top, and you can actually do something useful with them; over and over and over...

I think you're right there. You don't have to worry about your ISP/PPE, if you have an extra e-clip ect. You can just get into the action and not have to worry about bookkeeping. Heck even if you remove scaling damage, just having a power you know will work whenever you need it has a lot of appeal.