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The Q&A gods have said the Denizens of the Nightlands such as the
Dopples, Hounds, etc that are suppost to be able to Mirror Walk, but
the book doesn't provide a manner on how they are suppost to, have just said
they should Mirror Walk just like the Nightbanes do. Now I don't have
my books with me at the moment, but I'm going to see if these guys have the P.P.E to make it do able. If so, . I can finally figure out how
to move troops in and out of the Nightlands. If not,

Just thought of something else. I guess it answer my previous question
about whether or not Hounds and Dopples where able to cross over prior
to Dark Day. I guess the answer is no. But that definately means there
is something special about Banes and their relationship with the Nightlands
since they could do it to prior to to Dark Day.

Okay...the problem is the following

Doppleganger PPE 1D4
Hounds/Hunters PPE 1D6x10
Hound Masters PPE 2D4x10
Ashmedai PPE 2D4
Namatar PPE 4D6+10

According to the Mirror Walk power of the Nightbane. They can travel
through a mirror to the Nightlands (and vice versa) at the cost of
2 PPE and take up to 100 lbs. Anything more cost 1 PPE per 2 lbs.
So 160 lbs cost 80 PPE.

Now let's look at the PPE availability of the various Denizens I listed.
Its impossible for a Doppleganger to pull anyone through a mirror (as
shown in the Book) or for a Hound or Hunter to even take prisoners
back into the Nightlands. Furthermore, a Nightbane carrying a 102 lb
object would have to spend 51 PPE to take it through

As a G.M. I'd like nail this annoying thing down. I want something that
makes sense. So far I haven't found a "house rule" that works for me.
Anyone got any ideas, I'd love to hear them

I still don't like the idea of lowly Nightlord minions having the ability to Mirrorwalk. IMNSHO, the "Q&A Gods" are wrong. Outside of the actual Nightbane books, the folks at Palladium (mainly Big Kev) have consistently shown a complete and utter lack of understanding with regards to the Nightbane setting.

Reagren Wright wrote:According to the Mirror Walk power of the Nightbane. They can travel through a mirror to the Nightlands (and vice versa) at the cost of 2 PPE and take up to 100 lbs. Anything more cost 1 PPE per 2 lbs. So 160 lbs cost 80 PPE.

Well, I would adjucate that to mean that it costs 1 PPE per additional 2 lbs over 100 lbs. So, crossing over with 160 lbs would cost 32 PPE (2 to cross over initially + 30 PPE [1PPE/2lbs]). So, a high cost yes, but not the 80 you posit. Why would you get up to 100 lbs "for free" (for the initial cost of 2 PPE), but trying to carry anything heavier than that would force you to pay for everything (including the initial 100 lbs) at 1/2 PPE per pound? That doesn't make sense.

Reagren Wright wrote:Now let's look at the PPE availability of the various Denizens I listed. Its impossible for a Doppleganger to pull anyone through a mirror (as shown in the Book) or for a Hound or Hunter to even take prisoners back into the Nightlands. Furthermore, a Nightbane carrying a 102 lb object would have to spend 51 PPE to take it through.

No it wouldn't. Realistically, it would cost 3 PPE. So a first or second level Doppleganger could easily make off with two or three kids under their arms. Heck, a Namatar (Avg. 25 PPE at first level) could quite capably carry off even a full grown woman (say 125 lbs) for 15 PPE.

My question is why you think you would ever have to pay for the initial 100 lbs twice?

Beelzebozo wrote:I still don't like the idea of lowly Nightlord minions having the ability to Mirrorwalk...

I'm with you entirely, Beelzebozo. I think the Nightlords themselves have to do something to cross critters over.

And even if they could do it themselves, they certainly shouldn't be able to before Dark Day.

Just a note: things seem to imply that Dopplegangers, Hounds, Hunters, Ashmedai, and Hollow Men might get increases in PPE as they level. I see nothing about that in their write-ups about them gaining PPE per level. Most people and supernatural creatures don't get increases in PPE... ever. Most human beings, in fact, never go up in it as they level. A few very specifc types of psychics and sorcerors are pretty much it. Nightbane are different because they, kind of like the psi-mechanic, Nightbane actually sacrifice gained PEE to gain new abilities, and like a sorceror actually use their PPE for something.

Far as I see it, Dopplegangers, Hounds, Hunters, Ashmedai, and Hollow Men are just not magical creatures in ways that would give them PPE increases... ever... and aren't magical creatures enough to be able to mirror walk.

I could be wrong about people thinking that they do/should get PPE increases, but it seemed that way when I was first reading.

Believe it or not that 160 lbs costing 80 PPE is right out of the book.
I mean I was and trying to understand the reason for it. Why cost
2 PPE up to 100 lbs then all of sudden cost 51 PPE for 101 lbs?

My only problem was it seem that Dopples where pulling people through
mirrors because what better way of getting rid of them (besides hiding the
body). And surely the Hounds have a way of going back and forth. I doubt
President Carson has all his Hounds locked away in a closet.

Someone in the Q& suggested that mirrors operate in a way similiar to
ley lines for Denizens. So under full moon you'd have more PPE available
to pass through the mirror with greater loads. Not bad of an idea.

Reagren Wright wrote:Believe it or not that 160 lbs costing 80 PPE is right out of the book.

Seriously? That's just stupid, lol.

Well, if it made sense, it wouldn't be made by Palladium.

So when the one awakened Doppleganger decides it wants to crossover.
What does it do? Find a Nightlord and ask to send it over? That doesn't
seem to be the case, and it also suggest that only important people have
been replaced. Does the Nightlord have time to find all these humans and
open portals to replace them? It sounds more like somethign the Dopples
do on their own, then find their masters on Earth and begin working for them.

Reagren Wright wrote:So when the one awakened Doppleganger decides it wants to crossover. What does it do? Find a Nightlord and ask to send it over?

When the Doppleganger awakens spontaniously -- assuming the hound, hunter, nightlord or other entity currently torturing it notices, cares, or doesn't consider it a bonus for its sadistic pleasure -- it is told in no uncertain terms how it will behave, when it will crossover, and what it's job will be. Any grey areas are handled by it being tortured more.

When Doppleganers are saught out to replace specific people, they are searched for and, assuming they haven't been tortured and killed already for entertainment purposes, they are tortured for entertainment until they awakened, and until they know their place afterwards.

If a Doppleganager somehow awakens for some other reason, like its human being being dragged into the nightlands or itself being dragged to earth somehow, then the very last thing they are going to consider is going to the nightlords for anything, assuming they have any sense at all. These are the creatures who's minions roam and fly in the pitch darked world that they are in, occationally grabbing others like themselves for various reasons all involving pain and death, with the added bonus of slavery/servitutde if they are awake like them.

Just because one does awaken doesn't imply that it has dimensional travel abilities, even "just" over the mirror wall.

Personally, I've always assumed that when crossing over is involved, the Nightlord simply sends over batchs of hounds, hunters, dopplegangers, and whomever else to do it's bidding. Dark Day itself was planned, or at least highly aniticipated, by them, and they did a lot of prep ahead of time. Things proceed from there with planning and the like. While they are slightly busier now that the invasion is happening, if your minions can't cross over on their own, I'm sure they can schedule the time to move troups across. This makes sense to me... it's one reason why there aren't huge armies of hounds slaughtering everyone until they have taken over and instead there is a lot of subtle stuff happening.

But it sound like the only people who would be Dopples would be people
in positions of power. I mean what's the purpose of Walt the Janitor having
his Doppleganger on Earth. If only political leaders, law enforcement,
CEOs, entertainers, are the only Dopples that makes there number seem
so few. It also doesn't provide the paranoia feeling the game should have.
You shouldn't know whose human and who is not. Maybe the neigbors
are really monsters. The cute kid down the street. The Nightlords are
to busy to be bothered by awakened Dopples who want to cross over who
have no strategic value. Having a mirror anywhere should make one feel
edgy, that something might cross over. If the Nightlords are the only one
who can do this, then the only mirrors there going to use are the ones
readly available to them, which means the one in the next room.
Not the one in a Nightlands version of a shopping mall.

Shadowmagic wrote:

Bastionbane wrote:Where does it say that dopple's and Hounds have the mirror walk ability? The listings I have in the "Bane core book don't say. Unless I am reading it wrong.

It is suggested that nightlord and some minions have the ability on page 157 of Nightspa..(that's the version I have) under "Crossing over".

Also see pages 12 and 55 of Nightlands. One notes in all these cases that it only mentions "Hounds and a few other minions." Dopplegangers are never specifically named. As mentioned on the Q&A forum, the images of Doppelgangers passing through mirrors do not confrom to the decription of Mirror Walking, and I maintain that they illustrate the Nightlords' "Breach the Mirrorwall" ability, not Mirror Walking.

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

Shadowmagic wrote:It is suggested that nightlord and some minions have the ability on page 157 of Nightspa..(that's the version I have) under "Crossing over".

Also see pages 12 and 55 of Nightlands. One notes in all these cases that it only mentions "Hounds and a few other minions." Dopplegangers are never specifically named....

Thank you both. This was something I had missed.

Reagren Wright wrote:But it sound like the only people who would be Dopples would be people in positions of power... If only political leaders, law enforcement, CEOs, entertainers, are the only Dopples that makes there number seem so few. It also doesn't provide the paranoia feeling the game should have.

This all depends on your point of view. I do see your point.

From all I've read, the awake dopplegangers running around are ones that the Nightlords wanted running around, are the rare escapee or renegade, or the even rarer one that spontainiously awakened. From every thing I've read, it's hard to awaken one. You have to gather them, put them through horrid tortures without them being perminantly damaged or killed, and so on (see previous post). Dopplegangers rarely, if ever, spontainiously awaken. This is the way I have read the way the game world is written.

If you accept this -- which you don't have to, but that would be straying from the game as written, which isn't bad nec., but is different -- that doesn't have to mean that the Nightlords haven't sent over more than just people you'd think of as "important". With a combination of smarts and sadism, they could be inspired to send whole bunches of them over. And hey, if the hounds can do it, too, it's not that much effort on their part personally.

Reasons to send Walt the Janitor over:

(1) He's an excellant spy. He has keys to everything, sees everyone, and few higher ups will pay him much mind, most likely.

What? You think all the "important" people are political leaders and people in high positions? Heck no... and besides, many of the "big ones" are usually mroe powerful critters. Dopplegangers are *perfect* to sent out no matter who their originals are. In fact, the more ordinary, the better. No one suspects them, and they can help with other areas. Soccer moms taking the team for rides at odd times (Hound Master and a small troupe), kids getting into whatever they can and acting all innocent, and well... all those reasons you wanted to build fear actually do have a use.

(2) For fun... hey, that Doppleganger we've been tortured woke up and said he'd do ANYTHING of we'd stop... so we make sure he's ready to be loyal to us and send him over, because we know he'll kill his original, and will probably need to bumb a few witnesses off along the way, and that's just mean... you can taste the anguish in the air...

(3) (Something not recommended if we are staying secret... but it's fun.) How about taking an unawakened and tossing them over? That'll wake him up, and he'll *have* to kill his original or die. And that could be a problem for the Doppleganger, as described in the main rule book, which wouldn't be if they can mirror walk.

We could even grab some bozo and see if his Doppleganger shows... >:)

One point you seem to be missing: while there is an invasion going on, and it's hard to tell who's human and who isn't (sans Presense Sense, See Truth, and the like), it doesn't mean all of your people makig like difficult and scary for the players are or even should be inhuman. The players really can't even trust the known humans around them. Sure, the mayor might be a tentacled, evil monster, and some people who are actually creatures from the other side of the mirror who have killed their reflection and are corrupting all around them... but part f the worst thing is that if you trying telling anyone, they'll think you're insane. And if you try to prove it (or do prove it, "Hey honey, see me turn into Jason with a working chainsaw on my stump", or "You know how I love scorpions?"), you'll get someone trying to put you away (where you know They control or at least monitor) or just outright kill you. If you act too weird, you get groups of humans who are perfectly willing to spout the political propoganda and beat you to death with a baseball bat.

Anyway, these are just ideas and what I think. I did see your point in your post and thank you. You are correct, in my view, the players aren't *as* affraid of every mirror they pass. But, it seems, there still could be Hounds and others that can do what they do and reach beyond a mirror anywhere.

Nerdbane wrote:Huh ... I always thought if a human being had a doppelganger and the human died, especially suddenly/violently, then the doppelganger spontaneously awakened. Which, granted, is a pretty specific set of circumstances but not SUPER rare (especially in a post Dark Day world where violent crime has escalated significantly).

An I making crap up? Or do I rightly remember reading that somewhere?

da Nerdbane

That's from the Doppleganger description in the main book. While Dopplegangers can be spontanteously awakened by the death of their double, this is supposedly a rare occurrence, so of course every Doppleganger NPC in the books has this origin.

The Q&A gods have spoken again. So it appears Dopples and the
Denizens don't have the power. Or C.J. was going to give them the
ability and it was left out of the character description. Therefore I'm
content to believing they don't have the ability. Which means doing some
tweeking with some adventures. But I'd love to see a future update on the
matter.