What is so bad about...

[Toc Rat]

OK, as much as I hate to bring up yet another Coalition thread, I have been wondering about something lately. Just what was so bad about the CS death camps?
No, seriously, hear me out. This is a nation/organization whose express often stated and certainly demonstrated purpose is to kill every non-human and mage(even if 100% human) on the entire planet! They kill D-bees and mages 24 hours a day, 365 days a year without hesitation or remorse. Coalition soldiers routinely do search and destroy operations that wipe out entire towns/villages. It is common place for them to kill every las D-beet man, woman and child. Right down to the infant in the cradle. They kill every mage that crosses their path too include Father McSlayum, cleric in the service of God. Credited with the deaths of over 100 secondary vampires and half a dozen masters! They amputate the arms and legs of mages and replace them with clunky bionics in order to reduce/eliminate their powers.
Given their standard procedures, what was so bad about them killing people in "death camps"? Honestly what's the differece between being killed outside a fence or inside? If you are the pregnant ley-line walker that just got burnt to a pile of smoking ash from a C-27 Plasma cannon, did you really care if it was done inside or outside of a walled off area?
So why did that general what's his name get fragged over some "death camps"? I know some kind of reason was given in the SoT series but I forget at the moment and I am not near them at the moment. I would have thougt the only thing he might have gotten scolded for was wasting time in bringing them to a camp in the first place.
Anyone else confused on this? Or is it just me?

[Jesterzzn]

Yea, I thought it was a bit weird too. I think the sticking point was that humans were part of the camps, and torture of humans is still technically a crime in the CS. Remember that in Lone Star it says that if Prosek knew about the human experimentation he would have the complex shut down. So even the coalition has its limits, at least when it comes to humans.

[Toc Rat]

Yea, I thought it was a bit weird too. I think the sticking point was that humans were part of the camps, and torture of humans is still technically a crime in the CS. Remember that in Lone Star it says that if Prosek knew about the human experimentation he would have the complex shut down. So even the coalition has its limits, at least when it comes to humans.

See I would buy that exept for the part about amputating the arms and legs of human mages. Also the mass extermination of all magic useing humans. They don't care if that ley-linewalker was one of the Vanguard who secretly help the CS. They kill them all. Torture is also used to extract information, then they kill the mage.

Glad to know I'm not the only one who thought it a bit odd for anyone in the Coalition military to get upset over a "deathcamp".

[Nxla666]

Actually in the bionics source book it says that the CS will keep human mages alive if they give up magic and submit to the bionics, they do this so that they can learn more about mystical things.

[PigLickJF]

See I would buy that exept for the part about amputating the arms and legs of human mages. Also the mass extermination of all magic useing humans. They don't care if that ley-linewalker was one of the Vanguard who secretly help the CS. They kill them all. Torture is also used to extract information, then they kill the mage.

Glad to know I'm not the only one who thought it a bit odd for anyone in the Coalition military to get upset over a "deathcamp".

But they don't consider mages to be truly human, or pure human, or whatever. They're corrupted by demonic supernatural forces and all that jazz. Not every person in those camps was a dbee or mage, likely there were some that were just normal, average humans who happened to live in Tolkeen. (Of course, I haven't actually read the SoT series, so I don't if that was how they presented it in the books).

PigLick

[Nxla666]

It was the presence of innocent humans that caused the CS to launch a ground war instead of using its (limited) nuclear arsenal.
These humans in the camps are most likely subjected to "reeducation" and pro-CS propaganda on, at least, hourly basis if not a constant recorded barrage (think Red Dawn).

[PigLickJF]

Actually, I just read the section. It didn't mention anything about the normal humans in the camps at all. Basically, the only problem with them was that they had not been officially sanctioned. Dictators and megalomaniacs tend to get pissy when people go over their heads and do things without permission. Then on top of it, the General who started the camps suffered a humiliating defeat, so the top brass were already none too happy with him when they discovered the camps. I'm sure if ol' Joe had thought of and/or approved the camps they'd have been lauded as a brilliant use of enemy captives and such .

PigLick

[Nxla666]

Actually though I have them I havent read to much of them, Im saving them for later in my campaign.

[Nxla666]

My statement about the presence of human civvies is based on other sources (SB4 in part)

[RainOfSteel]

Yea, I thought it was a bit weird too. I think the sticking point was that humans were part of the camps, and torture of humans is still technically a crime in the CS. Remember that in Lone Star it says that if Prosek knew about the human experimentation he would have the complex shut down. So even the coalition has its limits, at least when it comes to humans.

Yes, but I read between the lines. The Emperor will only be shocked and awed (er, horrified) if he "officially" learns about it in a public way. In private, I'm sure he cares nothing for the non-CS Citizen victims.

[Nekira Sudacne]

"death camps" are considered bad because the nazi's are still ruthlessly demonized to modern day--that's all

[Nxla666]

Im kinda surprised (actually no Im not) that most people think that the Prosek regime cares nothing for humanity only their own power, whilst this has some truth it is NOT absolute, while the Proseks DO care for humanity (its stated repeatedly in the books) they are more than willing to sacrifice non-CS humans IF it serves a greater purpose (theirs, admittedly).
The Proseks have NEVER condoned the slaughter of non-combatant humans (D-bees on the other hand, well...).

[Nxla666]

Nekira wrote:

death camps" are considered bad because the nazi's are still ruthlessly demonized to modern day--that's all

---------------------------

Of course the reservations and interment camps set up by the US were actually wonderful places to live.


But then history IS written by the victors (and uncovered by those not willing to submit)

[RainOfSteel]

OK [...] Just what was so bad about the CS death camps?
[...]
Anyone else confused on this? Or is it just me?

Look at it this way.

In operations preceeding SoT, the CS armed forces on anti-mage/anti-dbee duty fought mostly small scale actions with overwhelming forces using volunter veterans whose outlooks were fully aligned with the hardline ideological philosophies of the CS.

But in the silly-funny expansion toward creating the SoT assault army, most the the new army came out of the <gasp, cough, choke /> Burbs of Chi-Town. Perhaps they all didn't see things the same way? Maybe the guy* who killed the General was just fragging a commander he didn't like and used the excuse of the Death Camp horror to justify it to himself (not like it hasn't happened throughout the history of warfare).

Personally, I don't really see any end-result difference between open-field killing and death-camp killing.

However, in the run-up to the murders themselves, the death camp plays it all out in slow motion, concentrates the emotion of it so that everyone present can experience it all directly (or resort to dissociative shut-down), instead of in the rapid-fire and difficult to completely comprehend environment of an attack (no matter how lopsided that attack may have been).



* I can't recall whether he was career CS or not (the guy who shot the general), but I seem to think he was.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Nekira wrote:

death camps" are considered bad because the nazi's are still ruthlessly demonized to modern day--that's all

---------------------------

Of course the reservations and interment camps set up by the US were actually wonderful places to live.


But then history IS written by the victors (and uncovered by those not willing to submit)

they're still a far cry from a death camp. we didn't activly try to work everyone to death.

[RainOfSteel]

the slaughter of non-combatant humans (D-bees on the other hand, well...).

And yet, they do it all the time.

[Nxla666]

Really? Where have you read that?

Most cannon references to CS military actions have them being less... aggressive towards places that have a significant human populace.

[Nxla666]

Admittedly there are references to CS commanders going to the extreme, the one that springs to mind is the one in charge of Lone Star security around the complex (cant recall his name) he uses mad dog tactics to secure it and does have his men kill ALL unauthorized beings that come too close, but he answers to Dr. Bradford first and Gen. Cashbrook second (I believe) but hardly ever to the Emporer or anybody in Chi-town for that matter so all the Proseks "officially" see only reports.

[RainOfSteel]

Really? Where have you read that?

Most cannon references to CS military actions have them being less... aggressive towards places that have a significant human populace.

Oh, I don't know . . . the whole SoT Campaign, especially the end?

Pre-SoT: Everytime they wander into a thorp, village, or town, and massacre everyone without a second thought?

[Nxla666]

As I havent read SoT yet cant say anything there but as for pre-SoT again WHERE are these numberless tales of atrocities against human written.
I have seen very few such tales.

[Toc Rat]

Actually, I just read the section. It didn't mention anything about the normal humans in the camps at all. Basically, the only problem with them was that they had not been officially sanctioned. Dictators and megalomaniacs tend to get pissy when people go over their heads and do things without permission. Then on top of it, the General who started the camps suffered a humiliating defeat, so the top brass were already none too happy with him when they discovered the camps. I'm sure if ol' Joe had thought of and/or approved the camps they'd have been lauded as a brilliant use of enemy captives and such .

PigLick

So they higher commands whole problem was not the death camps per se but that the general in question was an embrassement due to him having lost some battles? Figures. I still dont get the part about the Coalition even caring about them though. They do much worse things to their enemies everyday.

[Nxla666]

Death camps are something the average CS citizen wont tolerate, killing them all quickly fine, slow torturous death no.

And before anyone "reminds" me, yes I am aware that the government controls the media, that wont stop grunts returning home from telling stories and rumors and lies travel faster than light.

[RainOfSteel]

Death camps are something the average CS citizen wont tolerate, killing them all quickly fine, slow torturous death no.

And before anyone "reminds" me, yes I am aware that the government controls the media, that wont stop grunts returning home from telling stories and rumors and lies travel faster than light.

Sadly, most of the more, unreliable, troops died.

[Nxla666]

Yes, well as much as I like the CS in game I couldn't live there, I ask to many questions.

[Killer Cyborg]

Rifts, p. 140
"Although the Burbs are considered a free-port, where all races and philosophies are welcome (and do indeed attract a vast number of adventurers and travelers), non-humans, practitioners of magic, scholars, and psychics are viewed with great prejudice. The Coalition peacekeeping forces seldom lift a finger to help a D-Bee or mystic even if they are witness to the attack..."
And so on.

The CS is NOT out to exterminate every non-human or mage that they encounter. They are prejudiced, but they do not openly advocate genocide against most species (xiticix are an exception).
Anybody who can find passages describing the CS openly advocating Genocide, please quote the relevent passages.

As to death camps:
The CS soldiers are people. According to CB1 (although this may have changed later) most of the CS soldiers are of good or selfish alignment. Sure, they are taught that D-Bees and mages and such are the enemy, but that doesn't mean that the soldiers are for killing them in cold blood. Killing an enemy soldier during battle is one thing, but mass executions of helpless people are something that anybody with good alignment would rebel against eventually.

[Toc Rat]

The CS is NOT out to exterminate every non-human or mage that they encounter. They are prejudiced, but they do not openly advocate genocide against most species (xiticix are an exception).
Anybody who can find passages describing the CS openly advocating Genocide, please quote the relevent passages.

Rifts: pg.49 " The official Coalition line on the matter is: Do not give pause in your beliefs. Unnatural invaders have the power, both psychic and magical, to cloud your mind. To listen to their words is to open oneself to evil. Stay clean. Stay pure. Kill them without hesitation or remorse, knowning that your actions save the human race"

Clearly this indicates their policy of mass murder and genocide without pause or concern. Thus my question as to why any of them would think that death camps would be a "bad" thing. I know there are more passages but I figured the very first introduction in to the CS motto and policy on D-bees and mages would be the best place to start.

[cornholioprime]

OK, as much as I hate to bring up yet another Coalition thread, I have been wondering about something lately. Just what was so bad about the CS death camps?
No, seriously, hear me out. This is a nation/organization whose express often stated and certainly demonstrated purpose is to kill every non-human and mage(even if 100% human) on the entire planet! They kill D-bees and mages 24 hours a day, 365 days a year without hesitation or remorse. Coalition soldiers routinely do search and destroy operations that wipe out entire towns/villages. It is common place for them to kill every las D-beet man, woman and child. Right down to the infant in the cradle. They kill every mage that crosses their path too include Father McSlayum, cleric in the service of God. Credited with the deaths of over 100 secondary vampires and half a dozen masters! They amputate the arms and legs of mages and replace them with clunky bionics in order to reduce/eliminate their powers.
Given their standard procedures, what was so bad about them killing people in "death camps"? Honestly what's the differece between being killed outside a fence or inside? If you are the pregnant ley-line walker that just got burnt to a pile of smoking ash from a C-27 Plasma cannon, did you really care if it was done inside or outside of a walled off area?
So why did that general what's his name get fragged over some "death camps"? I know some kind of reason was given in the SoT series but I forget at the moment and I am not near them at the moment. I would have thougt the only thing he might have gotten scolded for was wasting time in bringing them to a camp in the first place.
Anyone else confused on this? Or is it just me?

That was General Micander Drogue and he got misted by good ol' Sergeant Deon Canton, who, while a Veteran, had had too much killing even for him.

Drogue -who makes even Alistair Dunscon look like a Spirit of Light by comparison -asked Canton to wipe out a bunch of clearly children D-Bees, and the Sarge wasn't having it.......he pretended that Drogue had been mind-controlled by Aliens or Psionics or something, andthe other men in his squad took him out or something like that.....

[cornholioprime]

It was the presence of innocent humans that caused the CS to launch a ground war instead of using its (limited) nuclear arsenal.
These humans in the camps are most likely subjected to "reeducation" and pro-CS propaganda on, at least, hourly basis if not a constant recorded barrage (think Red Dawn).

The CS did try Nukes -as a FIRST Resort (remember, CS Nukes are almost magically free of Fallout).

Tolkeen's Mystic Defenses made short work of them,

[cornholioprime]

Really? Where have you read that?

Most cannon references to CS military actions have them being less... aggressive towards places that have a significant human populace.

Rifts: Coalition War Campaign disagrees with you somewhat.

It states that the NORMAL course of events in the CS Military is to conduct what they call "pacification" Actions or something like that.

In short, locate a Village of D-Bees and/or Mages, gather Intelligence on it, and then burn it down -with the Villagers in it, armed or not....

[Killer Cyborg]

The CS is NOT out to exterminate every non-human or mage that they encounter. They are prejudiced, but they do not openly advocate genocide against most species (xiticix are an exception).
Anybody who can find passages describing the CS openly advocating Genocide, please quote the relevent passages.

Rifts: pg.49 " The official Coalition line on the matter is: Do not give pause in your beliefs. Unnatural invaders have the power, both psychic and magical, to cloud your mind. To listen to their words is to open oneself to evil. Stay clean. Stay pure. Kill them without hesitation or remorse, knowning that your actions save the human race"

Clearly this indicates their policy of mass murder and genocide without pause or concern. Thus my question as to why any of them would think that death camps would be a "bad" thing.

Obviously, that passage is not referring to everybody; just the enemies.
Since the CS uses psychics, allows D-Bees on their doorstep, and even hires mages to do mercenary work at times.

I know there are more passages but I figured the very first introduction in to the CS motto and policy on D-bees and mages would be the best place to start.

Fine more.

[RainOfSteel]

It seems to me that the policies of the CS are crystal clear. Kill, kill, kill. Don't think about it, just kill.

And if you're not thinking about it, enemy identification becomes problematical, or even a non-issue.

[Toc Rat]

It seems to me that the policies of the CS are crystal clear. Kill, kill, kill. Don't think about it, just kill.

And if you're not thinking about it, enemy identification becomes problematical, or even a non-issue.

Exactly.

[Killer Cyborg]

It seems to me that the policies of the CS are crystal clear. Kill, kill, kill. Don't think about it, just kill.

And if you're not thinking about it, enemy identification becomes problematical, or even a non-issue.

Exactly.

So... other than that one passage (which is clearly not applied)...
Where do the books say that?

[Toc Rat]

Obviously, that passage is not referring to everybody; just the enemies.
Since the CS uses psychics, allows D-Bees on their doorstep, and even hires mages to do mercenary work at times.

I know there are more passages but I figured the very first introduction in to the CS motto and policy on D-bees and mages would be the best place to start.

Fine more.

Um, it says right under "Regarding Non-human Invaders" the following pg.49 Rifts: "The soldeir has been indoctrinated to believe that all non-human creatures are invaders and a threat to human life." So while you are correct in that they only commit genocide against their enemies, they clearly consider all non-humans, no matter how cute, warm and fuzzy, to be their mortal enemies. No diplomacy, no compromise, they are the enemy and must be eliminated at any and all costs.

So, back to my original question, that being the case that the Coalition wants all non-humans D E A D, why would any of them have a problem with the death camps? In Rifts-Aftermath pg.7 it says ""No prisoners. No mercy" "Death to all" That page continues to say "Emperor Prosek wants the blight that was the Kingdom of Tolkeen to be erased and buried forever" on Pg.8 it says "Most grunts just want to get out and go home." Followed by "They don't question orders to treat all non-Coalition personnel with extreme prejudice and just do what they are told. Half of them consider it fair payback, some have qualms about gunning down women and children, especially humans, but follow orders and others are too numb to care" pg.18 "Methodically, relentlessly the Coalition war machine crawls through the streets, killing everyone they see." pg.27 "The Coalition is on an extermination mission." "When Tolkeenite survivors are found alive in the debris, they are either left to die or slain on the spot-gassed, shot or bludgeoned to death."

Regarding Coalition alignments, yes I well aware that they can be Scrupulous or even Principled. The Deadboy that just spent the day gunning down every man woman and child at a D-bee village could also donate his spare time at a CS orphanage or give blood. Woopie. Mass murder is still mass murder in my book. However because it is socially acceptable for someone in the CS to commit these heinous acts against mages and non-humans, they don't have to change alignments. Just because they can mark down "Principled" on their sheet doesn't make their actions OK.

I just don't get how anyone, given their express stated goals of extermination of all non-humans and users of magic, had a problem with the death camps.

[devillin]

It was the presence of innocent humans that caused the CS to launch a ground war instead of using its (limited) nuclear arsenal.
These humans in the camps are most likely subjected to "reeducation" and pro-CS propaganda on, at least, hourly basis if not a constant recorded barrage (think Red Dawn).

The CS did try Nukes -as a FIRST Resort (remember, CS Nukes are almost magically free of Fallout).

Tolkeen's Mystic Defenses made short work of them,

I always kind of wondered how pissed off whoever was on the other side of that portal was when those nukes came flying out. Not the folks at ground zero (cause they would be dead), but those folks further away.

[RainOfSteel]

It seems to me that the policies of the CS are crystal clear. Kill, kill, kill. Don't think about it, just kill.

And if you're not thinking about it, enemy identification becomes problematical, or even a non-issue.

Exactly.

So... other than that one passage (which is clearly not applied)...
Where do the books say that?

As I mentioned previously, try the entire SoT, where the CS wipes out non-combatant humans pretty much constantly, but especially in SoT6.

[RainOfSteel]

It was the presence of innocent humans that caused the CS to launch a ground war instead of using its (limited) nuclear arsenal.
These humans in the camps are most likely subjected to "reeducation" and pro-CS propaganda on, at least, hourly basis if not a constant recorded barrage (think Red Dawn).

The CS did try Nukes -as a FIRST Resort (remember, CS Nukes are almost magically free of Fallout).

Tolkeen's Mystic Defenses made short work of them,

I always kind of wondered how pissed off whoever was on the other side of that portal was when those nukes came flying out. Not the folks at ground zero (cause they would be dead), but those folks further away.

What if they opened the rift into deep space, the suface of a star, inside the event horizon of a black hole (and no, there are no SG-1 type transmission of environmental effects through the Rift . . . although that seems like a separate topic)?

[RainOfSteel]

Im kinda surprised (actually no Im not) that most people think that the Prosek regime cares nothing for humanity only their own power, whilst this has some truth it is NOT absolute, while the Proseks DO care for humanity (its stated repeatedly in the books) they are more than willing to sacrifice non-CS humans IF it serves a greater purpose (theirs, admittedly).

SB1, p.20. "Emperor Karl Prosek: Alignment: Diabolic Evil." DE alignments don't care about other people.


SB1, p.20. "Karl is an evil megalomaniac. His every action is motivated by his lust for power, fame, and glory."


SB1, p.20. "[...] Prosek is not a dedicated supremacist. That particular emphasisis is only a useful means to an end." A clear statement that Karl doesn't even believe his own words, and is just using the whole scapegoatism approach to cement his power.

[RainOfSteel]

SB1, p.21. "Next is to quietly eliminate sources of potential trouble; i.e., non-sympathetic individuals, communities, and organizations."

Those categories definitely include "non-combatant" humans.

[Toc Rat]

Okay Define enemies again.
Would the people of Kemora count or port horus who happened to be living in towns NOT engaged in active conflict with the CS. <Sorry the D-bee/mage/psychic player in me slipped out>
Anyway.
The reason why it so bad is because the systematic torture and murder of elder male noncombatants children and female noncombatant looks bad on any government. PR didn't save germany (No offense to Germanic players that may be are reading this) it rallied their enemise in fear. If that happened to them after the lost what will happen to us if they get to powerful.
Strangely enough I doubt the NGR, or Northern gun will appreicate this if they thought it was common policy. None of the magical kingdom will or are standing up for it. An tell me any of you can look a the pictures of real death camps pictures and tell they are a political coup.
I doubt it.

Ahh but the magical kingodms and nations do tolerate it. Lazlo didn't come to Tolkeen's aid, nor did New Lazlo, nor Kingsdale, heck even the Federation of Magic didn't bother to take advantage of the two front war the CS was fighting to cause any trouble.

Don't get me wrong, I happen to think that the CS(read as prosek) policy of shoot first, shoot later and then if any of those mage/D-bee scum are still breathing shoot again is, to say the least, not a good thing. However what I was trying to point out is that since that is their policy, why would death camps be a big deal to them? It's practically standard operating procedure to them.

[Killer Cyborg]

Obviously, that passage is not referring to everybody; just the enemies.
Since the CS uses psychics, allows D-Bees on their doorstep, and even hires mages to do mercenary work at times.

I know there are more passages but I figured the very first introduction in to the CS motto and policy on D-bees and mages would be the best place to start.

Find more.

Um, it says right under "Regarding Non-human Invaders" the following pg.49 Rifts: "The soldeir has been indoctrinated to believe that all non-human creatures are invaders and a threat to human life." So while you are correct in that they only commit genocide against their enemies, they clearly consider all non-humans, no matter how cute, warm and fuzzy, to be their mortal enemies. No diplomacy, no compromise, they are the enemy and must be eliminated at any and all costs.

Then explain the Burbs, and why the CS consorts with mages at times.

Regarding Coalition alignments, yes I well aware that they can be Scrupulous or even Principled. The Deadboy that just spent the day gunning down every man woman and child at a D-bee village could also donate his spare time at a CS orphanage or give blood. Woopie. Mass murder is still mass murder in my book. However because it is socially acceptable for someone in the CS to commit these heinous acts against mages and non-humans, they don't have to change alignments. Just because they can mark down "Principled" on their sheet doesn't make their actions OK.

Read the description of the good alignments and point me to the place where it okays killing large numbers of unarmed foes or civilians.

[Killer Cyborg]

It was the presence of innocent humans that caused the CS to launch a ground war instead of using its (limited) nuclear arsenal.
These humans in the camps are most likely subjected to "reeducation" and pro-CS propaganda on, at least, hourly basis if not a constant recorded barrage (think Red Dawn).

The CS did try Nukes -as a FIRST Resort (remember, CS Nukes are almost magically free of Fallout).

Tolkeen's Mystic Defenses made short work of them,

I always kind of wondered how pissed off whoever was on the other side of that portal was when those nukes came flying out. Not the folks at ground zero (cause they would be dead), but those folks further away.

No worries, those nukes just hit a bunch of dinosaurs.

[Killer Cyborg]

It seems to me that the policies of the CS are crystal clear. Kill, kill, kill. Don't think about it, just kill.

And if you're not thinking about it, enemy identification becomes problematical, or even a non-issue.

Exactly.

So... other than that one passage (which is clearly not applied)...
Where do the books say that?

As I mentioned previously, try the entire SoT, where the CS wipes out non-combatant humans pretty much constantly, but especially in SoT6.

As I mentioned previously, quote passages from the books.

[Toc Rat]

Obviously, that passage is not referring to everybody; just the enemies.
Since the CS uses psychics, allows D-Bees on their doorstep, and even hires mages to do mercenary work at times.

I know there are more passages but I figured the very first introduction in to the CS motto and policy on D-bees and mages would be the best place to start.

Find more.

Um, it says right under "Regarding Non-human Invaders" the following pg.49 Rifts: "The soldeir has been indoctrinated to believe that all non-human creatures are invaders and a threat to human life." So while you are correct in that they only commit genocide against their enemies, they clearly consider all non-humans, no matter how cute, warm and fuzzy, to be their mortal enemies. No diplomacy, no compromise, they are the enemy and must be eliminated at any and all costs.

Then explain the Burbs, and why the CS consorts with mages at times.

Regarding Coalition alignments, yes I well aware that they can be Scrupulous or even Principled. The Deadboy that just spent the day gunning down every man woman and child at a D-bee village could also donate his spare time at a CS orphanage or give blood. Woopie. Mass murder is still mass murder in my book. However because it is socially acceptable for someone in the CS to commit these heinous acts against mages and non-humans, they don't have to change alignments. Just because they can mark down "Principled" on their sheet doesn't make their actions OK.

Read the description of the good alignments and point me to the place where it okays killing large numbers of unarmed foes or civilians.

Exactly! Where does it say that mass murder is OK under principled? Yet CS characters are expressly permitted to be of good alignments and keep them even after doing those nasty things. It's ok for them because they don't see non-humans or mages as "people". Just one of the problems I have with the alignment system.

As for them "working" with mages and allowing D-bees to exist in the burbs? It already explains the burbs in the CWC book. They just don't care enough to bother with them unless there are too many or they start to cause trouble. They see the burbs as the first line of defense for the city They figure any invader will have to carve a path(literally) through their bodies to get to the front gates. They also take that view with the humans living their too.

I honestly don't expect anyone to have a satisfactory answer for why anyone in the CS would object to death camps given their policies. I just posted this to see if anyone else thought it a bit odd. Looks like I am not alone either.

[Toc Rat]

It seems to me that the policies of the CS are crystal clear. Kill, kill, kill. Don't think about it, just kill.

And if you're not thinking about it, enemy identification becomes problematical, or even a non-issue.

Exactly.

So... other than that one passage (which is clearly not applied)...
Where do the books say that?

As I mentioned previously, try the entire SoT, where the CS wipes out non-combatant humans pretty much constantly, but especially in SoT6.

As I mentioned previously, quote passages from the books.

Did you skip over the many passages I quoted? Not that it matters really. This isnt a debate. It's very clear what the CS policy is. Heck if you have any doubt just ask AlexM or KS. The Coalition's stated goal is to kill all non-humans and mages on the planet. That is simply understood. Nothing to debate there.

Like I said, I was only interested in seeing if anyone else also thought the CS suddendly being concerned over a few deathcamps was odd for them. Then again maybe I should have posted this on the continuity thread...

[Killer Cyborg]

Read the description of the good alignments and point me to the place where it okays killing large numbers of unarmed foes or civilians.

Exactly! Where does it say that mass murder is OK under principled? Yet CS characters are expressly permitted to be of good alignments and keep them even after doing those nasty things. It's ok for them because they don't see non-humans or mages as "people". Just one of the problems I have with the alignment system.

Where does it say that good aligned CS soldiers commit mass murder?

As for them "working" with mages and allowing D-bees to exist in the burbs? It already explains the burbs in the CWC book. They just don't care enough to bother with them unless there are too many or they start to cause trouble. They see the burbs as the first line of defense for the city They figure any invader will have to carve a path(literally) through their bodies to get to the front gates. They also take that view with the humans living their too.

You are claiming that they see every D-Bee as an enemy that must "be destroyed at all costs," yet they ignore the hundreds or thousands of D-Bees in the Burbs becuase "they just don't care to bother with them"...?
This does not make any sense.

I honestly don't expect anyone to have a satisfactory answer for why anyone in the CS would object to death camps given their policies. I just posted this to see if anyone else thought it a bit odd. Looks like I am not alone either.

I've given a good answer already; you just don't like it because you seem fixated on the mistaken idea that the CS openly embraces genocide.

[Toc Rat]

As for them "working" with mages and allowing D-bees to exist in the burbs? It already explains the burbs in the CWC book. They just don't care enough to bother with them unless there are too many or they start to cause trouble. They see the burbs as the first line of defense for the city They figure any invader will have to carve a path(literally) through their bodies to get to the front gates. They also take that view with the humans living their too.

You are claiming that they see every D-Bee as an enemy that must "be destroyed at all costs," yet they ignore the hundreds or thousands of D-Bees in the Burbs becuase "they just don't care to bother with them"...?
This does not make any sense.

Got it in one, it doesn't make sense. That's my point.

[Toc Rat]

Read the description of the good alignments and point me to the place where it okays killing large numbers of unarmed foes or civilians.

Exactly! Where does it say that mass murder is OK under principled? Yet CS characters are expressly permitted to be of good alignments and keep them even after doing those nasty things. It's ok for them because they don't see non-humans or mages as "people". Just one of the problems I have with the alignment system.

Where does it say that good aligned CS soldiers commit mass murder?

As for them "working" with mages and allowing D-bees to exist in the burbs? It already explains the burbs in the CWC book. They just don't care enough to bother with them unless there are too many or they start to cause trouble. They see the burbs as the first line of defense for the city They figure any invader will have to carve a path(literally) through their bodies to get to the front gates. They also take that view with the humans living their too.

You are claiming that they see every D-Bee as an enemy that must "be destroyed at all costs," yet they ignore the hundreds or thousands of D-Bees in the Burbs becuase "they just don't care to bother with them"...?
This does not make any sense.

I honestly don't expect anyone to have a satisfactory answer for why anyone in the CS would object to death camps given their policies. I just posted this to see if anyone else thought it a bit odd. Looks like I am not alone either.

I've given a good answer already; you just don't like it because you seem fixated on the mistaken idea that the CS openly embraces genocide.

Oh and as for the alignment issue, we need look no further then pg259 of the core book. "Typical Coalition Grunt: Alignment-Any" Now go back and re-read the part where the are indoctrinated to kill all non-humans because they are invaders and don't belong on earth.

It's not a "Don't like your answer" it's that it says right in the book what their policy is.

[Killer Cyborg]

Oh and as for the alignment issue, we need look no further then pg259 of the core book. "Typical Coalition Grunt: Alignment-Any"

Yes, they can be ANY alignment.
Now read SB1 where it says that most CS soldiers are of good or selfish alignment.
They CAN be evil... heck, they can even go rogue and start death camps.
But it will be the exception, not the rule.

Now go back and re-read the part where the are indoctrinated to kill all non-humans because they are invaders and don't belong on earth.

It's not a "Don't like your answer" it's that it says right in the book what their policy is.

No, it says that they kill all non-human invaders.
And that section is outweighed by the existence of the Burbs and other official material.

[Killer Cyborg]

As for them "working" with mages and allowing D-bees to exist in the burbs? It already explains the burbs in the CWC book. They just don't care enough to bother with them unless there are too many or they start to cause trouble. They see the burbs as the first line of defense for the city They figure any invader will have to carve a path(literally) through their bodies to get to the front gates. They also take that view with the humans living their too.

You are claiming that they see every D-Bee as an enemy that must "be destroyed at all costs," yet they ignore the hundreds or thousands of D-Bees in the Burbs becuase "they just don't care to bother with them"...?
This does not make any sense.

Got it in one, it doesn't make sense. That's my point.

Which is pretty good evidence that you are mistaken.