need help finding Demi-Gods

[Marcethus]

Demigods aren't listed in any PF book they are found in Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse pg 17

[acreRake]

There is a note in Dragons and Gods about how some Colossal gods consider Epic and Heroic beings godlings and demigods...

('cause i wouldn't want you to have to actually look at a rifts product )

[J. Lionheart]

A demi-god is simply a very powerful being of mortal origin. Anybody can be a demi-god, all you need are some ignorant masses to worship you. A powerful mage who controls a horde of goblins because they think his powers are godlike is an example of a demi-god.

As this suggests, "Demi-God" isn't really a true category. It's a name that gets used, but isn't a "proper" title. As acreRake said, there are some hints at individuals who might be considered "demi-gods" but it's generally a term used by the ignorant to describe the powerful, or by the super powerful to insult the less powerful.



Godlings, on the other hand, are genuine lesser gods, but just don't have the powers, number of worshippers, and realms of the full gods. Any mortal with half a brain though will still call them a "god" to their face, as they are true deific beings, frequently members of a greater pantheon. Some genuine deities that might be considered "godlings" are folks like Mictla-Da, Sebek, and Chantico.


---
Reference: First Edition main book, 155.
---

[Nekira Sudacne]

Demigods are an offical class.

they are found in Patheons of the Megaverse, statted out with tips on roleplaying one and various powers.

and to the post above, prehaps, but in Palladium Demigod specifically refers to the daughter/son of a god.

[Sentinel]

There is a Demigod Immortal in Powers Unlimited II for Heroes Unlimited.

[cornholioprime]

A demi-god is simply a very powerful being of mortal origin. Anybody can be a demi-god, all you need are some ignorant masses to worship you. A powerful mage who controls a horde of goblins because they think his powers are godlike is an example of a demi-god.

As this suggests, "Demi-God" isn't really a true category. It's a name that gets used, but isn't a "proper" title. As acreRake said, there are some hints at individuals who might be considered "demi-gods" but it's generally a term used by the ignorant to describe the powerful, or by the super powerful to insult the less powerful.



Godlings, on the other hand, are genuine lesser gods, but just don't have the powers, number of worshippers, and realms of the full gods. Any mortal with half a brain though will still call them a "god" to their face, as they are true deific beings, frequently members of a greater pantheon. Some genuine deities that might be considered "godlings" are folks like Mictla-Da, Sebek, and Chantico.


---
Reference: First Edition main book, 155.
---

Sorry to disagree with Lionheart, but while ANYONE can indeed set themselves up as a God, there "IS" a specific "RCC" if you will, the Demi-God. In Palladium Fantasy, there are VERY FEW non-human beings that can produce viable offspring with other humanoids; Gods are one these, and the offspring of Gods and mortals are consequently called Demi-Gods (as opposed to Godlings -young offspring of the Gods.

You may have to consult "Pantheons of the Megaverse" after all, as I personally know of NO Templates for Demi-God creation in PFRPG (at least in Palladium; perhaps Demi-Gods simply aren't allowed in PFRPG as PCs).....

[acreRake]

I don't have my D&G handy, but i'm pretty sure it says specifically that divine/mortal parentage has almost no effect (stat-wise).

[Marcethus]

in D&G it has a brief and I mean very brief mentioning about demigods and godlings but no hard stats which is what I got the impression that that was what was wanted hence why I pointed to the Pantheons book.

[J. Lionheart]

Pantheons of the Megaverse is not PF, it is RIFTS, and therefore is not accepted at my table. Both Demi-Gods and Godlings are character types available in RIFTS, but not PF.

See both the First Edition main book, page 155, or PF Dragons and Gods, page 84 for the PF definition of Demi-God and Godling, which are consistent with my post above. Having both first and second edition PF precedent, I see no reason pollute it with RIFTS (being as this was posted in the PF forum).

[cornholioprime]

Pantheons of the Megaverse is not PF, it is RIFTS, and therefore is not accepted at my table. Both Demi-Gods and Godlings are character types available in RIFTS, but not PF.

See both the First Edition main book, page 155, or PF Dragons and Gods, page 84 for the PF definition of Demi-God and Godling, which are consistent with my post above. Having both first and second edition PF precedent, I see no reason pollute it with RIFTS (being as this was posted in the PF forum).

Who cares if you use Rifts or not. In PALLADIUM BOOKS (Rifts or no), if you are:

A]]The not yet mature (have not reached your full potential) offspring of two Gods, then you're a Godling.

B]]If you are an offspring of two (or possibly more) Gods that has reached your full potential, OR if you were originally a powerful Mortal that has been granted Divinity by a Pantheon, then you are God on your own right (e.g., Dionysius in both Rifts and in Greek Mythology, and Vallisque-Tan [Od's Right-Hand Man], to whom it is said that Godhood could be granted).

C]]Likewise, you can be "created" as a new God by enough worshippers (e.g., Wolvenar)

D]] If, on the other hand, you are the offspring of a God and a Mortal (usually Humanoid, but not always), then you are a Demi-God (e.g., Hercules and Krishna's Avatars in literature and in Rifts). Depending on the circumstances, you CAN be raised to Godhood by your pantheon.


BTW, I find it interesting that you apparently did NOT read the VERY NEXT part of the sentence that you originally Quoted, which ALSO said that you can CALL yourself any thing that you want, but that you have to have SPECIFIC Powers and Abilities to claim Divinity. ("...Although Giants and Mortal Men may establish themselves as Gods, only True Gods can bestow the powers of the Clergy, or use Deific Powers." Dragons and Gods, page 84).

In Palladium (again, both Rifts and elsewhere), your Class of Godly Status is NOT determined by what OTHERS call you, as you seem to attest, but rather your own innate Abilities.

And as to part of your Quote above, marked in Boldface, just because a given Character Class is restricted to NPC status does NOT mean they don't exist. It simply means that the Authors apparently don't want PCs made of those two Classes.

[Judas]

There's that deific power in Dragons & Gods that allows a god 2 create a minion race that has better stats, some of the gods powers and can pick an O.C.C, in many respects they could be considered demi-gods, the ones from PoTM might be a bit hard in palladium, Goldings would be like gods on pallidium.

[cornholioprime]

There's that deific power in Dragons & Gods that allows a god 2 create a minion race that has better stats, some of the gods powers and can pick an O.C.C, in many respects they could be considered demi-gods, the ones from PoTM might be a bit hard in palladium, Goldings would be like gods on pallidium.

Hey, you're clearly making a distinction between being like Gods, and actually being Gods/Demigods/Godlings themselves. Personally, got no problem with that.....

[Judas]

Though godlings will become gods, they are not at the moment (I think of it a bit in the terms of dragons, (hatching-Young Godling, Adult-God, Ancient-All father) it was more in terms of the power a godling has, on rifts there hard, but beatable, in palladium where your warrior is lucky to hace 60+ SDC, there power to the normal peasent on palladium would look like a god. Understand where you are coming from, (should have thought it though more) oh well nvrmind

[cornholioprime]

BTW, Boys and Girls, the fact that Demi-God Templates are NOT apparently listed in PFRPG seems to logically indicate (to me, at least) that Demi-Gods or Godlings are simply NOT available as Player Characters......

[Sentinel]

BTW, Boys and Girls, the fact that Demi-God Templates are NOT apparently listed in PFRPG seems to logically indicate (to me, at least) that Demi-Gods or Godlings are simply NOT available as Player Characters......

Maybe not for you: I use Pantheons, and do the MD to SDC conversions.

[Marcethus]

Same here sentinel
They have the SDC listed in the PoTM book for a reason

[J. Lionheart]

Pantheons of the Megaverse is not PF, it is RIFTS, and therefore is not accepted at my table. Both Demi-Gods and Godlings are character types available in RIFTS, but not PF.

See both the First Edition main book, page 155, or PF Dragons and Gods, page 84 for the PF definition of Demi-God and Godling, which are consistent with my post above. Having both first and second edition PF precedent, I see no reason pollute it with RIFTS (being as this was posted in the PF forum).

Who cares if you use Rifts or not.

I do. I don't play RIFTS, I play PF, and there are contradictory rules.

In PALLADIUM BOOKS (Rifts or no), if you are:

A]]The not yet mature (have not reached your full potential) offspring of two Gods, then you're a Godling.

This is contradicted on the pages I posted.

Re: Godlings
PF Main Book 1E 155: "These are lesser gods" and, in talking about their perpensity to visit the mortal plane: "This is especially true of godlings with no direct affiliation with any other gods or godlings"
PF D&G 84: "Most would agree that at least some of the Deevil and Demon Lords are godlings..."

B]]If you are an offspring of two (or possibly more) Gods that has reached your full potential, OR if you were originally a powerful Mortal that has been granted Divinity by a Pantheon, then you are God on your own right (e.g., Dionysius in both Rifts and in Greek Mythology, and Vallisque-Tan [Od's Right-Hand Man], to whom it is said that Godhood could be granted).

C]]Likewise, you can be "created" as a new God by enough worshippers (e.g., Wolvenar)

Yup, didn't ever disagree with anything said there...

D]] If, on the other hand, you are the offspring of a God and a Mortal (usually Humanoid, but not always), then you are a Demi-God (e.g., Hercules and Krishna's Avatars in literature and in Rifts). Depending on the circumstances, you CAN be raised to Godhood by your pantheon.

This is also contradicted on the pages I posted.

Re Demi-Gods
PF Main Book 1e 155: "Demi-Gods are super powerful or supernatural beings of mortal origin. This category includes occasional men of magic, clergy, giants (especially titans, cyclops, and gigantes), dragons, and other creatures born in this world of mortal flesh and blood"
PF D&G 84: "Even those of mortal birth may become powerful enough to be worshipped as gods."

BTW, I find it interesting that you apparently did NOT read the VERY NEXT part of the sentence that you originally Quoted, which ALSO said that you can CALL yourself any thing that you want, but that you have to have SPECIFIC Powers and Abilities to claim Divinity. ("...Although Giants and Mortal Men may establish themselves as Gods, only True Gods can bestow the powers of the Clergy, or use Deific Powers." Dragons and Gods, page 84).

I did read that part of the sentence, and felt no need to address it as I agree with it. You CAN call yourself anything you want. In PF, "Demi-God" is an unofficial title used for some powerful mortals. It's just what you or others "call" you. I never even addressed the idea of granting power to clergy, as I am well aware that only true gods can grant it. That is why it is so important to distinguish between the mortal demi-god, and the godling or true god.

In Palladium (again, both Rifts and elsewhere), your Class of Godly Status is NOT determined by what OTHERS call you, as you seem to attest, but rather your own innate Abilities.

You're speaking RIFTS speak at me. In Palladium Fantasy, "demi-god" is not a deific status. It is NOTHING but a name people CALL you. In Palladium Fantasy, "godling" is nothing but a NAME people CALL you. Your innate abilities determine what you can do, absolutely, and have everything to do with your "godly status," but PF Canon specifies that Demi-God and Godling are not the well defined categories that they are in RIFTS canon.

And as to part of your Quote above, marked in Boldface, just because a given Character Class is restricted to NPC status does NOT mean they don't exist. It simply means that the Authors apparently don't want PCs made of those two Classes.

I was not addressing playability by PC's or not... as that is irrelevant to my point, nor do I care about it. "Character Type" merely was addressing the meaning of "Demi-God" and "Godling" as they pertain to one particular system of Palladium. In RIFTS they are "Character Types" whereas in PF they are not, they're just words.

Because the RIFTS rules (giving the definitions you gave) and the PF rules (giving the definitions I gave) are completely different, I use the PF rules when playing a PF game. This is the PF board, so they are what I posted. Were it the RIFTS board, I would agree with yours.

From your first disagreement with me:

as I personally know of NO Templates for Demi-God creation in PFRPG

Exactly. There isn't one. It is not a class in PF, just a word.

[acreRake]

Yay J..

[Marcethus]

Personally I disagree with you J but *shrugs* to each their own

[Borast]

If you are going with anything at all related to real world mythologies... A demi-god is simply a being who has a deific being as a parent. Whether the parent is the mother or the father is irrelevant.

Hercules is technically a demi-god, who through gaining sufficient worshipers was able to become a lesser god.

Demi-gods generally are "larger than life," as are PCs, but a DG is even moreso "larger than life." Using the Iliad and Oddessy as an example, the entire crew of the Argonaut were "larger than life," and while Jason was even "larger than life" than was anyone else on the crew - except Herc, but that's another story, he was not a demi-god. (For those of you who's only encounter with Hercules is cartoons or Kevin Sorbo...forget everything you know and do some research...they resemble "reality" as much as the 3 storey appartment building I live in resembles the twin towers of the WTC...)

[cornholioprime]

IF someone CAN find a true Demi-God in one of the PFRPG Books, and NOT J's self-styled explanations that now allow you to simply CALL yourself a Demigod, instead of the ESTABLISHED Definiton of Gods, DemiGods and Godlings as pointed out in Folklore throughout the ages, please point it out to him.....

I beleieve that at least one of you were able to point out the Offspring of a God and a Mortal, but that MAY have been in another Thread.....

And don't ANYBODY point out to J. Lion that the Author HIMSELF pointed out in the foreword of Pantheons that the Book itself is COMPLETELY compatible with the Palladium RPG; not a "Convert Robotech Protoculture or the Mechanoids over to Rifts or Palladium Gaming" type deal, but instead, a completely compatible Book, just as Gods and Dragons, a Palladium Book, is COMPLETELY compatible with Rifts; hence the reason why they provide MDC Values for the Gods in the latter book...and SDC stats for the Gods in the former.....

[J. Lionheart]

IF someone CAN find a true Demi-God in one of the PFRPG Books, and NOT J's self-styled explanations that now allow you to simply CALL yourself a Demigod,

How is quoting the rule book self-styled?

instead of the ESTABLISHED Definiton of Gods, DemiGods and Godlings as pointed out in Folklore throughout the ages, please point it out to him.....

This is a game, not the real world. The Palladium Fantasy world, unlike RIFTS, doesn't even pretend to be based in what we call the "real world." Folklore throughout the ages has about as much relevance here as the tactics of the modern US navy has to the Timiro Kingdom's naval tactics. It's fun to compare, but it's still quite irrelevant.

Also, I would love for somebody to point one out to me. I'm always happy to expand my knowledge of the system I love, but I believe the reason none has been pointed out is because none exists.

I beleieve that at least one of you were able to point out the Offspring of a God and a Mortal, but that MAY have been in another Thread.....

Go for it ::shrug:: Gods and mortals have kids fairly often, if you believe the stories. Od in particular seems to have this habit. I haven't seen any reference in PF to that being the definition of a Demi-God however.

And don't ANYBODY point out to J. Lion that the Author HIMSELF pointed out in the foreword of Pantheons that the Book itself is COMPLETELY compatible with the Palladium RPG; not a "Convert Robotech Protoculture or the Mechanoids over to Rifts or Palladium Gaming" type deal, but instead, a completely compatible Book, just as Gods and Dragons, a Palladium Book, is COMPLETELY compatible with Rifts; hence the reason why they provide MDC Values for the Gods in the latter book...and SDC stats for the Gods in the former.....

It's a Megaversal system, anything from any book is technically compatible with anything in any other book. I could take a Nightbane, give it powers from Heroes Unlimited, and play it in a PF environment with RIFTS weapons. That doesn't change that Pantheons is a RIFTS book and D&G is a PF book, nor does it change the fact that their rules are contradictory. Were I to play the above combination, I would not be so bold as to claim that the Nightbane was canon PF material or that the RIFTS weapons were canon HU material. Also, I'll thank you to avoid the sarcarsm, and simply debate your point straight up. This is a place for civil mature debate, it isn't Sound Off.

On with the debate! (I rather enjoy this)

1. First off, do you acknowledge that the different books have different descriptions of what a Demi-God is? This is critical. If you don't agree that the rules are listed differently in the different books, don't even bother with the rest of the questions, because we need to resolve that fact first.


2. Assuming you acknowledge the previous, than continue:

Granted that there are different rules, would you say that either book can be used in either system, both being written to be potentially compatible with the other?


3. Assuming you acknowledge the previous, than continue:

Granted that either may be used in either system, is there anything that makes the rule set in one superior to the different rule set in the other?


4. Regardless of previous answer, please continue:

Why should I not use the rule set that is in the book released for the system I play?


5. If you do not believe that I should use the PF rules for the PF game, please answer the following:

What is inherently superior about RIFTS that makes it necessary to throw out rules in other systems and use the RIFTS rules, just because the author of the RIFTS book said you potentially could?


6. Regardless of previous answer, please address this:

Even using the rule of thumb that the most recent book takes precedent, why should Pantheons (September 1994) supercede Dragons and Gods (April 1996)?


7. I'm still wondering about this as well:

You still didn't address the fact that you yourself said you knew of no clear definition of Demi-God in PF and that RIFTS was where to look, so why are you so insistent that one you obviously recognize as coming from a different system is the proper one for this system, when this system has specified otherwise?

[Entiago]

Look, the main reason that godlings and demi-god stats were not laid out in D&G, but were laid out in Panthons is one simple word...munchkinism.


godlings and demi-gods are not available as PCs in PF for them same reason that the alchemist OCC is absent from PF.

Anhow a month or so ago when Alex posted about D&G being "reprinted and woundered if there was any inconsistancies, he was asked if it was for a new D&G book, to which he relpied "nope, its for Rifts".

I am going with J. Lionheart on this one. for I too do not play RIFTS, and why should I buy their books when I have the PF ones already.






that and you never go against the heart family

[Marcethus]

The D&G doesn't specifically say that there aren't any demigods in PF world it just gives a minor definition of what they are. and the same goes for godlings. Whats to say that because PoTM was out and it had the information about using them in SDC worlds that they just didn't care to reprint information that would have taken up space that was used for something else?

[J. Lionheart]

The D&G doesn't specifically say that there aren't any demigods in PF world it just gives a minor definition of what they are. and the same goes for godlings. Whats to say that because PoTM was out and it had the information about using them in SDC worlds that they just didn't care to reprint information that would have taken up space that was used for something else?

The reason, which I have repeated in I believe every post I've made in this thread, is because the definition, however "minor," is contradictory to the PoTM ones others have given.

In D&G, it specifies that a normal mortal being can become a demi-god. The other definition says that one must have a deific parent.

In Mainbook 1e, it states that some godlings have no relation to any other god. The opposing definition says a godling is the young offspring of other gods. Furthermore, D&G specifies that some Infernal Lords are godlings, despite the fact that only Hel is the child of deific parents, and she was a god in her own right before changing sides.

Because they contradict the definitions from elsewhere, (not are incomplete or lesser but compatible) it indicates that they are talking about something different.

[Marcethus]

Oddly enough the PoTM doesn't say that a Godling is the Son and daughter of a True God doesn't really give much definition other than that of Lesser god. And yes Demigods are born of a deific and mortal according to PoTM but it also says that some times mortals of non deific birth are also called demigods.

[J. Lionheart]

Oddly enough the PoTM doesn't say that a Godling is the Son and daughter of a True God doesn't really give much definition other than that of Lesser god. And yes Demigods are born of a deific and mortal according to PoTM but it also says that some times mortals of non deific birth are also called demigods.

Hmm, do you know where cornholioprime was getting that then? He was quite emphatic, and the only source he cited for his side of the story was Pantheons. He gave very strict definitions, none of which are in the PF books. If they aren't in Pantheons either, somebody more familiar with the RIFTS canon will have to jump in to provide that source info. It doesn't change my perspective on PF Demi-Gods or Godlings, but it certainly is worthwhile to be able to correctly cite what I'm disagreeing with

[Marcethus]

I don't know where he got it from

[Nekira Sudacne]

Oddly enough the PoTM doesn't say that a Godling is the Son and daughter of a True God doesn't really give much definition other than that of Lesser god. And yes Demigods are born of a deific and mortal according to PoTM but it also says that some times mortals of non deific birth are also called demigods.

CALLED Demigods.

just like a powerful mage or demon can get a group of goblins to CALL them a god and worship them. . .

[cornholioprime]

I don't know where he got it from

***Sigh*** Pages 16-17 of Pantheons, Marcethus, where you are not only given a Template for Character Creation, but the 'Demi-God' and 'Godling' Types are ALSO defined. With different Powers and Abilities for each.

[Marcethus]

yes it gives a brief definition about the godling but it does NOT say that the godling is the son/daughter of a god. Just says that they are a lesser god.

[MADMANMIKE]

..This wouldn't be such a big arguement if your side wasn't filled with so many inconsistancies, J.

..First, you consider 1st Ed. info canon. There wouldn't be a 2nd Ed if this were so. You're mix and matching what you want to use to make up your side, and then arguing that you don't have to mix and match (Rifts & PF) to get the 'correct' set of rules. Can't have it both ways.

..Second, you insist Rifts and Palladium Fantasy have contradictory rules, but never give an example to support your arguement. And you can't debate this point with info from 1st Ed, as it's out of date and no longer canon. If you did, you would lose on the point that 1st Ed is conflicting with 2nd Ed....

..Third, you are prejudiced against Rifts as a product, which inherently weakens any arguements you have against it or it's supplements. It would seem that you are bitter about the proliferation of books for Rifts in relation to the smaller number of those for PF.

..Fourth, Pantheons of the Megaverse was written as a Conversion Book. As in for the purpose of converting it's information from one game system (Rifts) to any other system within the Palladium Megaverse (like say.... I don't know... Palladium Fantasy?)

..The fact is, Rifts is designed specifically (although not primarily, but certianly secondarily) to allow characters to translate from one system to another within the Palladium Megaverse. Every other Palladium Game that has gotten a second Edition (HU, PF, AtB and argueably Mystic China for N&S) has been written to be more in line with the system set forth by Rifts.

..So, try addressing these points and your arguement against the information in Pantheons will look more like a bucket and less like a colander.

..Oh, and Marcethus, Godlings are not the topic of debate, Demi-Gods are (it's the title of the fricken thread for cryin' out loud).

-Mike >8]

[Borast]

Now, now Madman...

Don't confuse the issue with facts...

It's harder to hold an untennable position when you start waving those red-herrings around.

[J. Lionheart]

..This wouldn't be such a big arguement if your side wasn't filled with so many inconsistancies, J.

And another warrior enters the fray. Wheeeee. I've been entirely consistant, but I'll answer your bullet points anyway

..First, you consider 1st Ed. info canon. There wouldn't be a 2nd Ed if this were so. You're mix and matching what you want to use to make up your side, and then arguing that you don't have to mix and match (Rifts & PF) to get the 'correct' set of rules. Can't have it both ways.

PF canon, yes. 1e Yin Sloth is still canon, 1e Island... is still canon, edition doesn't mean crap when the 2e rule matches the 1e rule. Mixing editions within a system is not comparable to mixing systems. For your edu-tainment, I've stuck with 2e examples below, just to make my point that it's easily done.

..Second, you insist Rifts and Palladium Fantasy have contradictory rules, but never give an example to support your arguement. And you can't debate this point with info from 1st Ed, as it's out of date and no longer canon. If you did, you would lose on the point that 1st Ed is conflicting with 2nd Ed....

Uhhh... did you actually read the posts I was replying to? I give the PF rules, the other person gave the RIFTS rules. They contradict. If you would like to avoid reading the thread before joining it, here are some examples pulled straight from the threads above:

RIFTS statement re: Demi-Gods. A demi-god is the child of a mortal and a god.
PF Dragons and Gods statement re: Demi-Gods. A demi-god is a completely mortal being who comes to be worshipped, and has no true deific powers or qualities.

RIFTS statement re: Godlings. A Godling is the child of other gods who is not yet at full strength.
PF Dragons and Gods statement re: Godlings. Some demon and deevil lords are godlings (note that they are NOT children of other gods (except Hel), nor are ANY at less-than-full-strength) . That there doesn't even bother to include the 1e reference (cause I know you don't like it) that some godlings are completely unrelated to any other deific beings.

..Third, you are prejudiced against Rifts as a product, which inherently weakens any arguements you have against it or it's supplements. It would seem that you are bitter about the proliferation of books for Rifts in relation to the smaller number of those for PF.

While it is true that I am not fond of RIFTS, I do own several books, have several characters, and have played it several times. My point is that when I play RIFTS, I use RIFTS rules, and when I play PF, I use PF rules. That's like telling a person of one political party that their arguments are invalid because they disagree with the other political party.

..Fourth, Pantheons of the Megaverse was written as a Conversion Book. As in for the purpose of converting it's information from one game system (Rifts) to any other system within the Palladium Megaverse (like say.... I don't know... Palladium Fantasy?)

Yes, and there are conversion books that PB has sued over cause they include stuff for converting palladium to other systems or vice versa, should I use all of those rules? Besides, if I have a PF source book, or heck, ANY source book, that is more recent than that conversion book, why would I not use the newer source book's rules?

..The fact is, Rifts is designed specifically (although not primarily, but certianly secondarily) to allow characters to translate from one system to another within the Palladium Megaverse. Every other Palladium Game that has gotten a second Edition (HU, PF, AtB and argueably Mystic China for N&S) has been written to be more in line with the system set forth by Rifts.

It's a megaversal system, everything is specifically designed in a non-primary way to allow characters to translate from one system to another. Key word, translate. Translation is imperfect, and when you change something to another language, you have to use the grammatical rules of the other language or you get garble. When you translate to another system, you have to use the playing rules of the other system, or you get equally worthless material.

..So, try addressing these points and your arguement against the information in Pantheons will look more like a bucket and less like a colander.

I did address some of them above, but now I've addressed all of them. Now that I've answered your questions, how about somebody go back and answer mine from that oh-so-selectively-read post of mine above? I notice that when I toss out tough questions, people avoid them. They are quite civil, and framed from a polite debate.

..Oh, and Marcethus, Godlings are not the topic of debate, Demi-Gods are (it's the title of the fricken thread for cryin' out loud).

Actually, in Marcethus' defense, godlings entered the debate early on. The question wasn't about what we're debating, this thread changed subjects on the first page.

[Marcethus]

Thanks for the step in my defense

while it may have been said by someone that Godlings are the son of god the Pantheons book doesn't say antything of the sort.

and on the 1e v 2e thing they aren't exactly compatible when you have to make conversion to make things work in 2e. while there are similarities both the Magic and Psionic system is very different from 1e and 2e.

and while D&G says that Men and Mortals MAY be called demigods it doesn't really give a definition of what they are other than a bit of flavor text. If it said something that refuted the existance of deific half mortals than your arguement would hold a bit more water.

Now from a balance issue I can see not letting PC's be godlings and demigods. But to claim that they just don't exist in PF especially when some of the gods in specifically mention dealings in Rifts Earth you can't claim that book that may have the Rifts in the title isn't a legitimate source for PF especially since PoTM is called Conversion book 2.

[MADMANMIKE]

..I think his last post speaks volumes about the futility of continuing to argue with him. His "logic" couldn't be more obviously flawed or contradictory, so why bother. It's like explaining how to program a VCR to a man with a radio.

..Marcethus, I didn't mean to come off rude, I was just trying to stear the topic back in line.

-Mike >8]

[J. Lionheart]

..I think his last post speaks volumes about the futility of continuing to argue with him. His "logic" couldn't be more obviously flawed or contradictory, so why bother. It's like explaining how to program a VCR to a man with a radio.

Jeez Mike, what did I do to offend you? I don't recall ever seeing you act this vicious and angry.

I answered every single point you brought up, I have asked questions of my own, and you have neither answered any point of mine nor replied to any question. I speak no contradiction, I only speak of the contradictions in the book. The flaws in my logic are those derived by extending your own arguments out to their "logical" conclusions. They just seem to be points you don't wish to accept.

Pleae recognize that I feel the same about everything you've said as you do about what I've said, and you've done nothing to defend yourself, just attack attack attack, which proves nothing of your point. Every time someone dodges the debate and focuses on random attacks unrelated to the issue, or to "obviously it's not worth debating" posts, you give me more reason to believe your side doesn't have a leg to stand on. If you don't want to debate it, fine, don't. It's no skin off my teeth if I depart with the confidence that I have a superior argument.

It's like we're looking at the same material, I'm telling you what's in my manual, and you're basically denying that I can read. If you want to use the VCR - Radio analogy, fine, it's accurate enough... just stop trying to tell me I have a VCR in my hands when I know perfectly well it's a radio. The systems are different, I've been saying so all along.

I debate on these forums because I love Palladium Fantasy, and am always happy to learn more about it. I prefer however to stick to actual debates, rather than personal attacks. I've said this before as well, and I'm rather tired of being insulted as a knee-jerk defense every time I bring up a good point. If you want to hold a meaningful conversation, please do join in and I'll be happy to continue. If you would like to stick to grandstanding and insults the likes of which would make Rush Limbaugh proud, please choose a different target.