Why the CS fights like a bunch of Idiots

[Nekira Sudacne]

I've noticed it as a topic ever sinse I came to these boards, espcially in regards to teh Seige on Tolkeen. why does the CS charge blindly into battle without taking advantage of their artileray, or air superiority. why do they fight like idiots. then just now stormgod gave me the hint

In the SOT they made so many blunders they really should even be called a trained army, just a bunch of illiterates with kewl weapons.

the it hit me. it has been complained that an army couldn't funtion when the poulace was illierate on why the CS couldn't really funtion. that's it you guys!

Kevin had it planned this way all along. the CS keeps it's populace uneducated and stupid

concequentally, they all fight like a bunch of Idiots with kewl weapons.

It all makes sense now

[Uncle Servo]

I've noticed it as a topic ever sinse I came to these boards, espcially in regards to teh Seige on Tolkeen. why does the CS charge blindly into battle without taking advantage of their artileray, or air superiority. why do they fight like idiots. then just now stormgod gave me the hint

In the SOT they made so many blunders they really should even be called a trained army, just a bunch of illiterates with kewl weapons.

the it hit me. it has been complained that an army couldn't funtion when the poulace was illierate on why the CS couldn't really funtion. that's it you guys!

Kevin had it planned this way all along. the CS keeps it's populace uneducated and stupid

concequentally, they all fight like a bunch of Idiots with kewl weapons.

It all makes sense now

Well, remember that members of the Coalition elite know how to read (well, for the most part anyway)... but you're right, the general populace is kept illiterate so they'd be easier to control but it sets their culture back considerably.

I keep wondering though whenever a topic like this one shows up -- how much (if any) military experience does Siembieda have? If he doesn't have much (or any), it might have been a nifty idea to hire an ex-military strategist as a creative consultant... or at least hired someone who won the Games Workshop's Games Day Grand Tournament (Warhammer or 40K).

*shrugs* Then again, if foresight worked as good as hindsight this world would be a whole lot better place (and probably a much more BORING one).

[Cardiac]

Yeah! And the Empire fought like idiots in Star Wars!

Hence the whole "Imperial Marksmanship Academy" joke.

[Uncle Servo]

Yeah! And the Empire fought like idiots in Star Wars!

Well, that's what you get when you don't check for inbreeding before you start cloning stormtroopers...

[Dustin Fireblade]

Totally agree with Nightbane Hobbes. I've found that very few people can properly use the CS in combat.

[Shin Kenshiro]

I noticed something you guys might want to read up on. In Coalition War Campaign, look at the features of all new Dead Boy armors. Ever one of them has a HUD that can "read" for them and then tell them what it is, therefore answering some of the "How can they read a battle manual/technical manual/anything".

Another thing is, I really really agree with Hobbes on the whole GM thing. I know alot of ex-military players, but no ex-military GM's. Hence, the CS is often the morons with guns concept that have no idea what they're doing. I did notice a GM who played the CS like a real military, and the players were scared **** of the CS. Patrols were never a group of 2-3, but always in sticks of 10, with 4 sticks....SAMAS and UAR-1/2/3 and Sky Cycle support. You did NOT pick a fight with these guys unless you had done ALOT of planning. Take the Iraq thing right now...we lost almost 120 men in April....the Iraqis lost 1,200 in that same month. With a 10:1 kill ratio, and most parties only being 6 strong max....food for though.

[Mack]

I tend to look at the CS military's effectiveness from 3 levels.

Operational - At the lowest level (small units / grunt level) the CS is tops. They work together with integrated movements and coordinated attacks and effectively obliterate their enemies. Soldiers quickly figure out what works best to stay alive.

Tactical - At the region level (say the size of a state) the CS does alright, but doesn't always understand all of the foes they face, and is hampered by Strategic decisions. Intelligence info is often skewed by preconcieved notions and arrogance.

Strategic - Looking across the entire CS, idealogy and politics often reign over sound military decisions (fighting Free Quebec, for example). This is where the Emporer's pride/meglomania gets involved, and other senior leaders just repeat the party line instead of challenging bad choices.

[Uncle Servo]

Part of the reason the CS is written as idiots is because if they weren't, they'd just stomp all over everything. In my games, the CS is at least a little bufoonish at times. Of course those times are usually not during combat-- but sometimes, well...

Buffoonish or honestly conflicted? As it's mainly the top brass who are inherently evil, there's ample opportunity for honestly good CS troops to 'fudge' their mission ops just a bit ("These D-Bees couldn't fight their way of a paper bag, Lieutenant... mark this village as 'burned to the ground' and I'm sure they'll just re-build in no time.").

Now I'm sure this 'fudging' would never extend to the point where it would place CS troops in actual danger (that WOULD be bufoonish to say the least)... but there's probably more than a little bit of 'minor fudging' going on in the CSAF, particularly in the more outlying areas.

[Borast]

Literacy does not automatically mean an ability to make tactically (or strategically) sound decisions, look at the European (esp British and Spanish) armies of the 17th, through 19th centuries, and even up until WWI - a (mostly) literate Nobility who were "hereditarily" Officers but who had not a lick of common sense or Military ability... On the flip side, illiterate does not equate to stupid.

Need proof? The two greatest military forces in the world...The armies of ancient Rome, and the Mongol hordes... What finally destroyed them? Not the fact that they (Rome: most soldiers never learned to read (much), but were exceptionally well trained and knowledgable in tactics, the science of supply etc. Mongols: almost 100% illiterate, but the most skilled cavalry units anyone has ever seen) couldn't read. For the Romans, it was the rot of their society. The Mongol "empire" died because Gengis Khan was not an empire builder, nor was his son - they lived on the tribute of half the world, and never took a single step to solidify their place, or improve the lot of their "subjects."

If the typical Coalition Grunt has 6 weeks (or less) of actual training, then yes, he is going to be almost completely useless in any real combat situation. (Think "Keystone Kops!") However, if the average Grunt sees 12-24 months of intensive training on weapons care and maintenance, small squad tactics, basic field repairs, asset use, maximisation of asset expenditure, etc; they will start being a SERIOUS threat, and with some even more intense training for the Officer Corps, possibly even re-forge the old American Empire, and conquer most of Canada and Mexico. All they have to do is break certain logjams like the newly hostile Free Quebec and the old enemy of Tolkien (ie: any place putting a continuing pressure and asset drain on the Coalition States). With the end of the SOT series, one of them is broken - destroyed really - and the other is simply growing stronger.

The Coalition State's biggest enemy where it comes to their "manifest destiny" to rule all of North America is not the other City States and Nations on the Continent, it is it's own rulers - civilian and military!

[Dustin Fireblade]

I'd like to see a poll that ranks on a scale from 1 to 10 modern militaries around the world today and see where in that scale people feel the CS should fall in.

Don't know how official this is, but here you go:
http://www.strategypage.com/messageboar ... -14422.asp

[Shadow Wyrm]

For the best example of how to portray the CS you don't have to look any farther than the Rifts novels. Though the editing was horrible the story was pretty cool. I think the series as a whole portrayed the CS properlly. The moral struggle of the CS soldiers against "really life" D-bees and mages and everything they were ever told about the two groups. The manipulation of the troops by the high command and the peak inside the minds of everyday CS troops was interesting. The CS grunts weren't the bunch of morrons that most GMs make them out to be. They for the most part, were soldiers who felt they were fighting for the survival of humanity. Never really giving any thought to the fact that their gov. was twisting their minds at every opportunity.

[Braden Campbell]

. This is the first major war of aggression fought in over 300 years with technologies (much less magic) that has never been utilized on such scale - both the tactics and strategies were entirely novel.
.

Same reason why the battle of the Somme killed almost 1,000,000 men nearly a year; gaining only a few miles of ground.

The reason the CS army fights like a bunch of idiots is because we, as readers, know better. we have the benefit of satalite imagry, advanced intelligence operations, and such. they do not . They have pretty jet planes (about 150 of them in total) and flying power armour, but in terms of thinking, having just come out of an intelectual dark age, they fight like its 1914.

[churchoftin]

I disagree, I think that the CS military is a highly capable, experienced, and totally ready fighting force. IMHO the CS would be down right frightening and able. I do not think that the people up on high would waste resources and personal, as that would not further their aspirations and goals. Well, actually, they would, but not en mass.

[Uncle Servo]

The reason the CS army fights like a bunch of idiots is because we, as readers, know better. we have the benefit of satalite imagry, advanced intelligence operations, and such. they do not . They have pretty jet planes (about 150 of them in total) and flying power armour, but in terms of thinking, having just come out of an intelectual dark age, they fight like its 1914.

Now while they can't have satellites because of the KillSats, there is nothing stoping them from having AWACS. With nuclear propulsion, they would be able to stay up there for weeks/months (based on food & water storage). With an automated crew (and/or remote piloted), they could stay up for years.

You know, I really wouldn't be at all surprised if the CS didn't have their own versions of AWACS. Maybe converted Death's Head transports, or maybe special recon versions of Skycycles with cameras/sensors instead of most of their weapons systems? It'd be more or less like the SR-71, U-2, and unmanned recon aircraft.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The reason the CS army fights like a bunch of idiots is because we, as readers, know better. we have the benefit of satalite imagry, advanced intelligence operations, and such. they do not . They have pretty jet planes (about 150 of them in total) and flying power armour, but in terms of thinking, having just come out of an intelectual dark age, they fight like its 1914.

Now while they can't have satellites because of the KillSats, there is nothing stoping them from having AWACS. With nuclear propulsion, they would be able to stay up there for weeks/months (based on food & water storage). With an automated crew (and/or remote piloted), they could stay up for years.

You know, I really wouldn't be at all surprised if the CS didn't have their own versions of AWACS. Maybe converted Death's Head transports, or maybe special recon versions of Skycycles with cameras/sensors instead of most of their weapons systems? It'd be more or less like the SR-71, U-2, and unmanned recon aircraft.

what's a AWACS?

[Lantis]

OK.. I know chiming in like this goes against my grain, but I HAVE to point a few things out.

A) you can speculate all you want about the whytos and wherefores, but the basic truth is this. IF Kevin had a method to his madness, then he never stated it, in either the last book of the Seige, or Aftermath(and still no Morpox the afflictor! ) So any speculation about why it happened like it did is just that, pure speculation. I won't go on to say why this was wrong, risking retribution, but it is a fact that the issue of the CS's apparent ineptitude was never truly addressed in the face of overwhelming evidence that the CS had access to strategies and generals who were more than well suited to lead the CS into a total victory over Tolkeen.(e.g. Karl having studied extensively his predecessors in War, which _yes_ would have included our modern contemporaries, as well as having geniuss generals like Marshal Cabbot, and Ross Underhill, or their numerical superiority: outnumbering even the citizenry of Tolkeen).

B) I can tell you the more logical reasoning to why the CS acted as it did. Sure, I know I just said "speculation is speculation" but I had done the same as you when book 4 was out. I thought "they can't be that stupid, lets explain why it might this way". So here is this... they recruited a huge huge huge number of troops from the Burbs. THEN, they promised the soldiers that their loved ones would be bumped up on the list for entering Chi Town, in return for their service to the CS. However, they would ultimately NOT be given that, and just be left to die, which was the intention all along.(Coalition Wars 1: Seige on Tolkeen, page 109, second column). With this in mind, how could they arm riffraff with the intention of telling them to **** off when they came in to collect on their promise?

Kill them off, of course! Why else would they have wasted such numbers on the enemy? To make sure that the promise they made would never truly be kept. Sure, a handful of war heroes would be left and enter the burbs. Sure, maybe a dozen thousand would enter one of the new cities. But the hated burb trash, and by proxy their families, would effectively be laid to waste by the ensuing battles. And THEN the veterans from the Quebec war would mop up, leaving the REAL CS army relatively untouched for the continuing campaign against the rest of the world.

I mean, doesn't that make more sense? But I waited and waited till the last book to come out, and no mention of that was ever made. So much for that theory.

But yes, no one will truly ever know why the CS charged like barbarian hordes, and why they didn't just bomb Tolkeen into submission. It all should have been over in a matter of months, with the CS taking Tolkeen out like a third world country, but then getting smacked upside the head by guerrila fighters. The current modus for Tolkeen "freedom fighters" works, but the years long struggle just didn't cut it.

However, that is all ancient history, no? Lets have some Falcate the Profane, like we were promised!


Addendum:

Surfdruid hit the nail on the head. Both sides acted pretty stupid. (An alliance with FQ? GAWD!)

[LunarYoma]

I'd like to see a poll that ranks on a scale from 1 to 10 modern militaries around the world today and see where in that scale people feel the CS should fall in.

Don't know how official this is, but here you go:
http://www.strategypage.com/messageboar ... -14422.asp

That poll is messed up. They didnt even factor in Japan. Next to the United states & Israel, Japan has the most technological advanced & equiped military on the planet, plus IIRC is 3rd in ranking in the world when it comes tto spending on its SDF.

[Shin Kenshiro]

I'd like to see a poll that ranks on a scale from 1 to 10 modern militaries around the world today and see where in that scale people feel the CS should fall in.

Don't know how official this is, but here you go:
http://www.strategypage.com/messageboar ... -14422.asp

That poll is messed up. They didnt even factor in Japan. Next to the United states & Israel, Japan has the most technological advanced & equiped military on the planet, plus IIRC is 3rd in ranking in the world when it comes tto spending on its SDF.

The SDF is also a hell of a lot smaller than any of those armies. Having lived in Japan and worked side by side with the SDF as a Marine, I can tell you that the SDF's technology is mostly American bought, and that poll was factoring in not just money and tech, but size as well. Pakistan's army may not be as advanced as the Japanese SDF, but I guarantee you it is huge in comparison. The SDF isn't allowed to go beyond a certain size, so they HAVE to pump alot of money into it. Also, they're spending large amounts of money on missile defense systems because of North Korea.

[Dustin Fireblade]

IMHO, the best thing that could happen for the CS would be for it to set up diplomatic ties with the New Navy, and get the New Navy to send some marines to help in retraining the CS military, because the CS clearly isn't acting like it has a very well trained army as a whole...

Actually, I tend to think that most of the CS military has training roughly on par with Civil War era soldiers.... especially conscripted soldiers, which is what the CS military is largely composed of.

Where did you get the part of CS conscription? I thought they had a huge number of volunteers, with many staying on for extended tours.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Ah. Understood. Never knew that about the Civil War..


At anyrate personally I don't think the CS military *should* be the best trained army on the planet, going back to something omni was saying earlier. I do however think the CS Army is trained wrong, going by the books. I simply correct that, and revised all the CS military OCC's several years ago when CWC and CS Navy came out.

[Shades of Eternity]

yet there are a few really kick ass commanders like lavec, de freres, ex colonel lawson and underhill who should be writing a book (if they are literate) on effective use of golden age technology in warefare.

I can sorta understand why grunts aren't literate, but nco's and officers have to be in order to fullfill their tasks.

[Space Marine]

I'm new to this board, but I think one thing in this discussion is missing the Coalition military has not been around for long, only since 80 something P.A. Some where around 24 to 30 years. In my personal opinion the leadership has not had time to figure out tactics and what types of technology support each other.
Look at how long we have had to figure things out and there are still many issues to combat that we develop all the time.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I'm new to this board, but I think one thing in this discussion is missing the Coalition military has not been around for long, only since 80 something P.A. Some where around 24 to 30 years. In my personal opinion the leadership has not had time to figure out tactics and what types of technology support each other.
Look at how long we have had to figure things out and there are still many issues to combat that we develop all the time.

Welcome to the boards first off.

Your timeline however is not correct; according to SoT Book 1, the CS officially formed in the year 33 P.A. So they have been around as a "nation" for 76 years. Prior to this of course they were all simply independent states.
I do agree however that combat/war is a constant evolution, both in terms of technology and tactics/strategy.

[Uncle Servo]

I'm new to this board, but I think one thing in this discussion is missing the Coalition military has not been around for long, only since 80 something P.A. Some where around 24 to 30 years. In my personal opinion the leadership has not had time to figure out tactics and what types of technology support each other.
Look at how long we have had to figure things out and there are still many issues to combat that we develop all the time.

As Fireblade said, welcome to be boards! (hmmm... 'Space Marine,' with an avatar remarkably similar to the shoulder pad of the Imperial Fists... wonder what OTHER game he likes?)

You do have a point, as Fireblade also pointed out. I've heard that military commanders frequently base their tactics on the last war fought, and if that's the case the CS wouldn't have much to build on save for the old campaigns against the original Federation of Magic. Since then they've always had easy sweeps against comparatively weak (almost defenseless at times) villages and merc groups, in which even just the troop/SAMAS payload of one Death's Head transport had more than enough firepower to wipe out the enemy.

Of course, the military planners would have all these lovely theories about large-scale battles against major powers like Tolkeen, but until the seige really got underway they were little more than that. Like any set of theories, they evolve and change once put into practice.

[UR Leader Hobbes]

I think you'd be on stronger footing if you could cite real world examples. Because the fact is governments can and do spend massive amounts of money on militaries with dubious results. Asking a question like why would they try and make a great army and not make a great army is, well, a circular argument.

OK sense the CS is essentially the reminants of the ol US of A hows about the US military? Do you know how much training your average soilder gets? At least a couple of months, it varries on the branch that they join.

Now lets look at your basic CS grunt. The starting OCC skills are

Radio Basic
Polot Hovercraft
Pilot Tank & APC
Robot Combat Basic
Read Sensory Equipment
Weapon Systems
Body Building
Climbing
Running
WP Energy Pistol
WP Energy Rifle
WP of Choice
HTH Expert

+8 OCC related Skills
+7 Seccondary Skills!

Thats your average Joe grunt off the street who decided to enlist and fight for the CS. Thats the standard basic for just grunts alone. (Nevermind more advanced training that consists of the other OCCs.

Now the physical skills and the HTH we can chalk up to daily PT of basic training. But the rest takes time to learn. I would say no less then three months of basic training at the least.

Now keep in mind thats just for your basic grunt from the RIFTS RPG on page 53. Never mind the OCCs in the War Campaign.

Lets take a look at the Boys across the water in the New German Republic. TRIAX NGR Pg 157 (* Indicate ones shared with CS Grunts)

Math Basic
Literacy Euro
Language Euro
Radio Basic *
Computer Ops
Pilot skill of choice
Pilot Tanks & APCs *
Pilot Truck
WIldernes Survival
General Athletcis
Climbing *
Swimming
Running *
WP Automic Rifle
WP Energy Rifle *
HTH Basic

The troops of th NGR also get 6 OCC related skills and only 2 seccondary skills

Now what does that tell you? CS Soilders start off with better HTH skills. Math basic as well as literacy and language can all be attained by the Grunt as a seccondary skills whcih will still leave the grunt with 2 more seccondary skill selections then the NGR Grunt. On top of that if the NGR Grunt wants to upgrade to HTH Expert that the CS Grunt starts with they will have to spend a OCC realted skill to get it. Leaving them with only 5 while the CS Grunt can spend 1 for Mart Arts or 2 for Assassin.

The bottom line is that the CS Grunt is a highly trained soilder. Even better then his couterpart from the NGR. Thus the CS military is more or less modeled after the US military.

It's an economics and doctrinal issue. A staggering 10% of the CS population is in the Army at any one time. Now, the CS only has so many resources at its disposal - how does it allocate them? On equipment? Or training? Or a hybridization of both? But it can't have the best of both.

Why not?

We need to clarify that the CS does indeed have severely limited resources - it is a remarkably productive wartime economy, but the CS has only a fraction of the population of the USA.

So the CS human populace is less then the USAs. Thats fair but keep in mind they don't count D-Bees on the cencus who often work for the CS as cheap labor. Sure they are essentially wage slaves but hey it's better then nothing right? Also the CS has good relations with most other nations. (Minus Lazlo and New Lazlo and the FOM) and actively engage in trade with those countries so not only are resources distributed and shared but so are the demands of labor.

This means that the CS is able to get what they need as far as supplies in exchange for either credits or trade of surplus goods. After all they do have a remarkably productive wartime economy.

In fact, its population, by even optimistic measures and including the Burbs is less than modern South Korea. It's GDP cannot support the best of all possible worlds when it comes to its military - it is a 2nd or even 3rd world state with 1st world technology.

So first you say they have a really great wartime economy and then you claim that the GDP can't supprot it's military? The fact is that the CS dumps lots of resources into it's troops and weapons. As demonstrated in the improvements in tech from the Rifts RPG and WB 11 War Campaign.

For example lets look at the ol staple of the SAMAS.

Deaths Head SAMAS vs Super SAMAS Newer model.

Heck even the Old style SAMAS got upgraded from the main RPG to the War Campaign with added MDC on the WIngs,and Ammo Drum.

Old style came with a rail gun and a rocket launcher. Super SAMAS has Dual plasma launchers, forearm gernade launchers, vibro blades, and is not isseued with a standard rail gun but often is armed with the CTT P40 ir the CTT M20 missle rifle. Best of all the new system allows these weapons to be wielded effectively one handed.

Now thats great but what about performance overall?

The SAMAS top speed was 300 MPH at a max hight of 500 ft. But Super SAMAS blows that away with a top speed of 500 mph and an amazing 16,000 ft in altitiude!

Now lets look at armor. New style is a variable tank in compairson with heavier armor 425 MDC vs 250.

So no two ways about it the new CS gear is top notch compaired to it's kin of yesteryear. So thats why the lower levels are rather slummy and just a couple of steps above the burbs in safety and security.

My point is that CS doctrine seems to use overwhelming force and numbers using tactically unsophisticated methods. This means it is relatively cheap to train the majority of the army, while relying on highly mobile and well-trained elite mechanized units to be decisive. This differs significantly from recent US doctrine.

Well the US has never really had to face an equal enemy in modern warfare. When it comes to conventional warfare we have no equal. Now Tolkeen and FQ were fair tests of the CS ability to compete against enemies with at the least equal tactical knowledge and fairly equal field capacity.

The CS military seems to have more in common with China's army - relying on masses of mediocre infantry - and the old USSR - a war-focused economy on a creaking economic infrastucture that splurges on ICBMs and tanks and jets but skimps on training - than with the surgical, well-trained army of the USA.

Funny you think that considering all of the skills given out to the CS OCCs. On average I'm seeing between 21-25 OCC and OCC related skills being given out at first level. Those aren't even adding in the Seccondary Skills which aren't supposed to be related to the OCCs.

Take a look at that Special FOrces OCC 28 OCC and OCC related skills at level 1!

Sorry but your claim that the CS doesn't train it's men just doesn't hold water.

Lastly, I think it is a mistake to mix improvements in technology with a corresponding increase in the sophistication of tactics using that technology. Military history is filled with technological solutions looking for a problem - it generally takes tacticians quite some time to maximize the efficiencies of new technology. I'd cite the repeated misuse of airpower for the first half to two-thirds of the 20th century and the complete botching of tank tactics by everyone except the Germans and the irrelevance of the Maginot Line as evidence that technological sophistication does not at all remotely equal tactical and strategic sophistication.

Ahh but you foget that when the CS fights against mages they have to take into the account Magic. And thats something you just can't point out in a history book. Howver the CS does show extremely quick adaptablitiy and innovation as well as constantly upgrading tactics and gathering intel to defeat mages as demonstrated in the SOT series.

The CS has never been in a war of aggression against a foe using this technology on this scale. It is completely new ground for the testing of tactics and strategy. Regardless of whether the CS generals are knowledgable on military history, there are ample opportunities for their doctrines to be proven wrong and it is completely plausible for that to happen.

Weather you wish to admit it or not the CS military is baised off of US military and should utilize tactics and training methods Ultimately they have a formula for victory that just can't be beat by anyone in North America. Reguardless of howmany trees Erin Tarn and Plato hug the CS is on the right path to attaining their goals.

Innovation, domination, as well as industrialization.

It's what got the US to the top and what keeps us on top.

[Syndicate]

The Coalition has always been a formittable force in my campaigns. They weren't always the player's worse enemy, but surely they always presented a challenge. I think their military force would be quite well trained...perhaps one of the best trained on Rifts earth. The War Machine that "backs" the Coalition isn't to be forgotten either.

[Sureshot]

I pretty much agree with what you wrote except for:

"Math basic as well as literacy and language can all be attained by the Grunt as a seccondary skills whcih will still leave the grunt with 2 more seccondary skill selections then the NGR Grunt. On top of that if the NGR Grunt wants to upgrade to HTH Expert that the CS Grunt starts with they will have to spend a OCC realted skill to get it. Leaving them with only 5 while the CS Grunt can spend 1 for Mart Arts or 2 for Assassin."

I agree with the grunt taking a better hand to hand skill why would he bother to take basic math? You or I would but I can't really see the cs pushing for soliders to be intelligent. It goes against their whole control the people doctrine.

"The bottom line is that the CS Grunt is a highly trained soilder. Even better then his couterpart from the NGR. Thus the CS military is more or less modeled after the US military."

I going to have to say that you are wrong in that account. The NGR soldiers are given more opprtunities to learn as opposed to an average cs soldier. Hell possing a book is supposed to be a crime. So I can't see a cs soldier being more intelligent. Maybe more experienced but not better trained.

"Sorry but your claim that the CS doesn't train it's men just doesn't hold water. "

I would not say the don't train thier men. I would say they just give them what they need and are not encouraged to learn anything else.

"Ahh but you foget that when the CS fights against mages they have to take into the account Magic. And thats something you just can't point out in a history book. Howver the CS does show extremely quick adaptablitiy and innovation as well as constantly upgrading tactics and gathering intel to defeat mages as demonstrated in the SOT series."

True but then again the CS in SOT had writers grace so they were going to win no matter what.


"Weather you wish to admit it or not the CS military is baised off of US military and should utilize tactics and training methods Ultimately they have a formula for victory that just can't be beat by anyone in North America. Reguardless of howmany trees Erin Tarn and Plato hug the CS is on the right path to attaining their goals.

Innovation, domination, as well as industrialization.

It's what got the US to the top and what keeps us on top"

I agree there is nothing at the moment that can seriously hurt the CS except for maybe Lazlo which should not be forgotten because of it's size. The second thing that will destroy the CS is overexpansion and the insanity of their leaders. While the tactics maybe based on the american military. The leaders of the CS are based on the nazi germany of world war II. Let's not forget that.

[UR Leader Hobbes]

I agree with the grunt taking a better hand to hand skill why would he bother to take basic math? You or I would but I can't really see the cs pushing for soliders to be intelligent. It goes against their whole control the people doctrine.

Thats a joke right??

You do realize that Basic Math includes the ability to count don't you. Everyone in the CS should have basic math. From speding creds to knowing how much ammo you have left basic math is an essential skill. Most likely overlooked by Kev S when he wrote up the grunt.

I going to have to say that you are wrong in that account. The NGR soldiers are given more opprtunities to learn as opposed to an average cs soldier. Hell possing a book is supposed to be a crime. So I can't see a cs soldier being more intelligent. Maybe more experienced but not better trained.

Sure in the NGR they have more opportunities but thats a culturial difference and it still doesn't change the writeups in the books. CS grunts get better skill packages and gain more skills as they progress.

I would not say the don't train thier men. I would say they just give them what they need and are not encouraged to learn anything else.

The CS trains the Dead Boys for combat.. Everything else is up to the person to go and learn of his or her own. Soilders are supported as much as they can by the CS in performing their tasks. The skills as well as the upgrades in tech from the main RPG to the War Campaign prove that.

True but then again the CS in SOT had writers grace so they were going to win no matter what.

Ok fine bring something like the PLOT into it.

But doesn't that prove what I've said all allong that your average GM doesn't know how to make the CS effective?

I agree there is nothing at the moment that can seriously hurt the CS except for maybe Lazlo which should not be forgotten because of it's size. The second thing that will destroy the CS is overexpansion and the insanity of their leaders. While the tactics maybe based on the american military. The leaders of the CS are based on the nazi germany of world war II. Let's not forget that.

But also keep in mind that the CS isn't expanding at a rate too quick to handle. Also the CS leaders know when to shift gears (As demonstrated by Prosek towards Free Quebec) so the CS really has become more then just a parody of Nazi Germany.

[Sureshot]

"You do realize that Basic Math includes the ability to count don't you. Everyone in the CS should have basic math. From speding creds to knowing how much ammo you have left basic math is an essential skill. Most likely overlooked by Kev S when he wrote up the grunt. "

I was thinking along the lines of advanced math my mistake. I agree with it being overlooked by KS. Just as Pilot robots and power armor was overlooked for the RPA pilot in the main book.


"The CS trains the Dead Boys for combat.. Everything else is up to the person to go and learn of his or her own. Soilders are supported as much as they can by the CS in performing their tasks. The skills as well as the upgrades in tech from the main RPG to the War Campaign prove that."

My point was that they are not encouraged to do so. Unless circumstances or orders warrent it. Nothing is stopping them but neither are they being helped. I remember reading that the CS tries to keep most of their soldier dumb to better control. At least that's what I read in the main rulebook. That may have changed in War Machine.


"Ok fine bring something like the PLOT into it. "

Careful you mentioned the dreaded four letter word. You might start something.

"But doesn't that prove what I've said all allong that your average GM doesn't know how to make the CS effective?"

I won't commnet on that because it's too much of a judgment call.



"But also keep in mind that the CS isn't expanding at a rate too quick to handle. Also the CS leaders know when to shift gears (As demonstrated by Prosek towards Free Quebec) so the CS really has become more then just a parody of Nazi Germany."

True but that may change. Remember who's in charge and their attitude at the moment. "We demolished Tolkien nothing can stop us." Plus Karl Prosek is not the most stable of people imo. It also does not help that nothing is in the works to tell us what will happen. Maybe Lazlo will.

[UR Leader Hobbes]

I was thinking along the lines of advanced math my mistake. I agree with it being overlooked by KS. Just as Pilot robots and power armor was overlooked for the RPA pilot in the main book.

Yeah that was kind of a funny quirk. A RPA Pilot who doesn't get to learn how to pilot Robots and Power Armor.. Oh well one of the great fubars of RIFTS.

My point was that they are not encouraged to do so. Unless circumstances or orders warrent it. Nothing is stopping them but neither are they being helped. I remember reading that the CS tries to keep most of their soldier dumb to better control. At least that's what I read in the main rulebook. That may have changed in War Machine.

Well on pages 35 + 36 it mentions that most don't care about the government being in control of everything sense the propaganda machine and the standards of living have made them complacent. Also a bit further on PG 42 of the CS War Campaign is a blurb on training.

"Ok fine bring something like the PLOT into it. "

Careful you mentioned the dreaded four letter word. You might start something.

Good point I should watch what I type more closely.

True but that may change. Remember who's in charge and their attitude at the moment. "We demolished Tolkien nothing can stop us." Plus Karl Prosek is not the most stable of people imo. It also does not help that nothing is in the works to tell us what will happen. Maybe Lazlo will.

Could be.. Given he is Diabolic but his attributes don't lend themselves to insanity very easily.. Fanatical yes but insane is another question.. IQ 19 ME 21 MA 24 the guy is pretty set in his ways and with his alignment he pretty much can justify it to himself so no big moral dilema for him.

[Lantis]

I hate to be the whiny beyoch, but did my post even make sense to you guys? I mean, it was totally passed over. I mean, its all there! MAN!

[Shin Kenshiro]

I also want to chip in that technological sophistication doesn't equal tactical sophistication. Look at World War 1, where they fought a 19th century war using 20th century weapons. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers died because the generals for each side were using tactics that had been outpaced by technological growth. And all the sides involved had well-educated soldiers, officers, and generals with a great handle on military history. But they still didn't know how to effectively use their weapons.

I can certainly concede the technological superiority of the Coalition. But knowing how to build a Super-SAMAS and knowing how to most effectively use a squadron of Super-SAMAS are entirely different skills.

1. So many soldiers died because of officer incompetence. Officers in those days were rarely from the enlisted, but were often members of the aristocracy. Yes, in WWI it was still an ongoing thing, it didn't stop in the Napoleonic Age. As for the sides having well educated soldiers....no they didn't. Tons of troops were conscripts, and the generals who were in charge had a larger grasp of pride than they did tactics. Military history yes, but they thought that all this "new technology" was just something that would go away...like the creation of some retarded child. They fought the war like they did because of ancient rules and traditions of their families. My great-grandfather was an officer in the US Army at the time serving as a veternarian because the armies involved were still using horse mounted cavalry. Americans went into it with a better grasp of what was going on, and our officers came from the people...hence our much more successful campaigns.

2. Training is what you develop tactics with, then you test said tactics with increasingly difficult experience. Then you modify your tactics and repeat the process. Every SAMAS out there, even the old Death's Head, are insanely expensive for a one man weapon. NO ONE wastes that kind of investment on spur of the moment plans. You don't need to pick a fight with Lazlo or Tolkeen to see how your stuff fares against magic...you fight what's in the wilderness, you hire mercenaries, you fight small kingdoms. You never just go "Oh what the hell, let's see what this does"...and think about the testing phases that go into every single piece of military technology. Nothing comes right off the drawing board into mass production.

[devillin]

Hey All,
I've read this thread from the beginning, and it strikes me that many of you come close to the secret behind how the CS is able to afford their war machine and army on such a small population. The secret is that the CS is a closed economy based on "Company Town" concept. All, or most of the money expended in the CS comes back to the CS government. First and foremost, other than the military, the CS has no other open-ended expenditures. They make no open-ended spending on education, welfare, social security, or health care. Take away those four things and you eliminate 1/2 of the spending the US government makes today, imagine what it would do for the CS. So, you are probably thinking, what about the health care and pensions provided to Citizens of the CS? Well, they've got two things going for them there as well. First, with fully 10% of their population in the military, that makes more than 40% of the remainder dependent on the military in some form or another. We're talking wives and children here. While they may not be in the military, they would qualify for military benefits, like health care, through base facilities. It is far cheaper for the CS to provide these services through state-controlled facilities, than to outsource it to someone else.

Second, even with giving the soldiers, and their survivors, military pensions, where are they going to spend it? Their rent in Chi-Town and the other CS cities is paid back to the CS government. Sure, there might be management companies, but who ultimately owns them? Food in the supermarkets, merchandise in the stores, even the water, comes back to being supplied ultimately by the CS government. Hence the concept of the "Company Town". Sure the company is paying you, but if they own the land, stores, and markets, eventually, your money is going back to the company. The same with the CS. The only thing they are making expeditures on that don't have an immediate return is the military, and even with that, the returns (no surviving enemies, peaceful borders, and happy and protected citizens) make the costs worthwhile.

Also, there was a comment about how the CS might try to betray the survivors of the recent grunts conscripted from the Burbs who died. I could very well seeing that happen ("Sorry Maam, but because your husband/daughter/son died before completing their first term, you don't get the benefits of CS citizenship"). However, for those who survived, it very much behooves the CS government to get them inside the cities as soon as possible and start paying into the "company town".

[Borast]

Geeze...I stop reading the thread for a few weeks, and 4 pages suddenly appear!

So far I've seen alot of good points on both sides of the argument, but the point that sticks-out is that someone posted a statement that the CS has to have a literate society. Why? Because they need to be able to read to run the high-tech machines. However, having worked in an industrial facility, I can say that that statement is not true.

Historically speaking, all trades, whether low tech or "high" tech, did the training of their new practitioners by example, and by rote. This does not work as well in today's society. Why? We can read...people in societies where litteracy is rare of non-existant have what can be described as obsenely broad memories. They can't read/write, so they remember almost everything they need. You show him how to do something once or twice (three times at most), and he or she can do it for the rest of his/her career. In a literate society, before you can expect reliable repetition on a task, they have to be treated to several weeks of intense training.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Thank god for you Wolfe! Are you and I the only military trained people here that actually get how it works? I swear the statements that come from some of these people really shows their ignorance as to how the military opperates and WINS wars.
Just because some RPG writer describes a coloful little story and setting in a military campaign doesn't mean he actually has a clue what he's talking about; and so many blind followers just take it as gospel.... Amazing really.
At least I know one other person understands the reallities of military tactics and the rediculousness of what is written in the Rifts books.

I think there's about 8-10 people here that are ex-military. Least that I can think of right off hand.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I think there's about 8-10 people here that are ex-military. Least that I can think of right off hand.

I know, which is why I was so upset at some of the postings. I would have expected better from some of them, but then I had to remind myself that not everyone in the military is trained in tactics or structured doctrine. It depends on what your MOS clasification is and what specific job your assigned to do. I'm more upset at how poorly the books are written to portray a military environment and the people responsible for its upkeep. It needed to be done a lot better and a lot more realistically; which is why in my games the Coalition has justification to be feared and watched.
If I upset anyone more than myself, I appologize. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers just wanted to get the point across that the CS has been handled by people with zero knowledge of how the military functions.
I'll be good now.

Well thats a good point. I'm more than 10 years removed from my military service as a 95B, and while I have always tried to keep up with all things military it is certainly not the same as being there and actually doing it.
The military aspect of the books is disappointing. Once the RPG Think Tank is back online I'll be starting a military forum to help others improve in this area. Hopefully some of you old warhorses will join in as well.

[Noon]

Gawd. There's an old saying 'Cat food adverts aren't designed for cats'

And roleplay books that contain depictions of war aren't designed for the scrutiny of generals. Its for roleplayers.

I understand that for various people it jars their suspension of disbelief when their opinion of how it should have been done isn't lived up too. But it IS just an opinion...if you know anything about war, you should know its an art, not a science. And artists do blunder.

Really, I'm not sure that the SOT series was as good like the M.A.S.H. TV series (if you rate good atleast by it being repeated over and over and millions have watched it over and over). But there is one thing they both have in common...it wasn't an excursion in depicting realistic war in minute and exacting detail.

[Noon]

Gawd. There's an old saying 'Cat food adverts aren't designed for cats'

And roleplay books that contain depictions of war aren't designed for the scrutiny of generals. Its for roleplayers.

but when you have the majority of the gamers complaining about this and they arent in the service it says something - how many threads are there about this very issue on this board alone??-..those of us that were/are in the service just pass on what we know.

My point is it's a missplaced desire for something in a product that isn't designed to contain it. Realistic tactics in SOT would be about as useful as cows being batteries instead of humans in the Matrix. It makes more sense, but that's not the point of the exercise. Yes, the books have a war in them, but that doesn't mean the focus of the books is on realistic war.

[Vrykolas2k]

I play the CS armed forces like a real military... you have your dumbazz lietenants who think they know stuff, the captains who know a bit, the majors who sometimes forget what they knew at one time, and so on... you also have your nco's who've been around, and know what they're doing. I also keep in mind that many CS officers and nco's have been able to study predecessors such as Patton {one of the most successful military leaders of all time actually}, and I also don't overlook the fact that though a soldier might start off illiterate, they might pick it up along the way... and hide their knowledge from their superiors. I tend to use modern tactics when I throw my players against them, and often the players don't know what they've stumbled onto until it's too late.

[Noon]

My point is it's a missplaced desire for something in a product that isn't designed to contain it. Realistic tactics in SOT would be about as useful as cows being batteries instead of humans in the Matrix. It makes more sense, but that's not the point of the exercise. Yes, the books have a war in them, but that doesn't mean the focus of the books is on realistic war.

Umm.... You didn't seriously just write this did you? Because if you did, then you missed the whole point of Rifts. Here's a hint- IT'S A WAR!*snip*

Umm... you didn't seriously read my post, did you? A conflict is presented in a book. War can be part of that conflict without actually being the focus of that conflict.

As for your other examples, I commend you on the 'here's a bunch of other off topic examples...if you can't answer them, then you can't answer this'. It's a classic posting move and very popular even today.

your point is its a missplaced desire for you and those who have similar feelings, not all gamers in general, if you would look through the archives of this board you would see this.

people ask, you give. if you dont want to go into so much detail then you dont ask for it, its purely up to you .. the creator of this system will tell you the same thing.. ITS UP TO YOU.
BUT if the majority of the board is saying the same thing..
they ask, people give, you give them your knowledge the subject where they go with it from there is up to them.

My mistake if people were just asking for another version of how game world events could have occured. I mistook it for something else entirely, apparently.

And this board has archives? It autoprunes after a month or so. All I can remember back to is being on this board (different software) before the SOT books even came out and how Anubis predicted all the mothballed SAMAS could win the war in ten minutes, while some other dude said there was a long range missile for every tolkeen citizen and the radar could lock onto them individually all the way in chi town. I was also on these boards when the even older software was in use. I remember a lot and its been an enlightening journey.

[Sureshot]

DWK wrote:
"Chalk me up as a non-military who saw how clunky, contrived and implausible it was. Granted, I'm used to the David Drake level of sci-fi/fantasy war stories. Although I wasn't expecting that quality of storytelling, I was expecting more than mass charges on both sides, lack of continuity with published source material, and writer's grace to win the day for the CS."

I was pretty disappointed in Sot myself and agree pretty much with your post

[devillin]

So far I've seen alot of good points on both sides of the argument, but the point that sticks-out is that someone posted a statement that the CS has to have a literate society. Why? Because they need to be able to read to run the high-tech machines. However, having worked in an industrial facility, I can say that that statement is not true.

Exactly, I had my players ask me about how CS soldiers can operate and repair their vehicles and weapons if they can't read. I explained to them that as far as repairs go, they are just following rote. Someone "teaches" the field tech how to fix something, and when the time comes around, that tech "teaches" the next generation how to fix it. As far as know how to operate stuff, I just said that they used a series of pictographs, kind of like a McDonalds cash register. You hit a picture icon of what you want and how many you want, and leave it to the machine to figure everything out for you. In essence, you have an army of trigger pullers.

[Xaoswolf]

I see part of the problem as the coalition being led by a mad man. Much like Hitler, Prosek has a wonderful war machine, but he is a few fries short of a happy meal, and if he says to charge, you charge, end of story.

[Borast]

Damn...if I wasn't skimming I'd still be reading when I have to go to work again in 14 hours...

Point: The CS is written as Keystone Kops when it starts running major military operations.
Reply: The CS military is accustomed to small unit warfare.

**I trust that even the posters/players on the board with real military experience will freely admit that a tactical and strategic genius in small unit combat will not necessarily know beans about grand warfare of the type of WWI or WWII or even simple theatre operations level warfare.

As for "learning from the past..." Don't forget, much of the knowledge of what happened prior to the coming of the Rifts (and most of what happened during the "2nd Dark Ages") was LOST - most of the teachings of military history are relegated to lore, and only tell WHAT happened, not HOW. (ie: General "so-and-so" managed to out manoeuver and destroy a numerically superior foe at the battle of "whatchamacallit" through use of superb tactics, and knowledge of terrain.) In fact, the likelyhood of more than a handful of military personnel in North America having heard of Sun Tzu (let alone read him) is slim.

[Warmaster40k]

I think the problem was that the coalition did not evolve from a military but from a multi country spanning organization known as NEMA these guys were rescue and defense, thats were they got thier tech thats where they got their tactical knowledge.
Its like sending the coast guard to do the Marines job

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think the problem was that the coalition did not evolve from a military but from a multi country spanning organization known as NEMA these guys were rescue and defense, thats were they got thier tech thats where they got their tactical knowledge.
Its like sending the coast guard to do the Marines job

is the jobs really that different? different objectives require different tatics to be sure, but with the proper plans and phisical fitness anyone with the equipment could do the job, right?

and yes, I am very ignorant on military matters, so don't flame me on that, I really don't know.

[Borast]

as for literacy

The written word is disappearing to be replaced by simplistic icon-images for the simplistic and illiterate millions

and in a few years a new written word evolves and literacy is still around.
sure a great many in the burbs and beyond wont understand all those icons but if you tend to teach them then all you have accomplished is teaching them a new written language..congradulations of keeping your masses "illiterate"

i find myself amused at the thought of recieving OPORDS operational orders written in simplistic icon-images.

Think about it this way...Keep an eye out while you drive to/from work. Look at all the street signs that don't actually need next to no lettering on them (stop signs, lane direction/turn signs, no stopping/no parking signs, etc...and, from what my father once told me, something like most of the 200+ traffic signs in Germany )

Look at your computer - the Power button has an icon, the reset button has an icon, the standard web enhanced keyboard has 15+ iconic keys, your monitor has iconic buttons, etc...

In the case of the CS's iconic language, it doesn't even have to have a syntax or structure, simply have meanings like "on/off", "raise/lower", etc...simply one or two "word" sentences in a single icon.

As to something like your operational orders, they would be printed for the (few) literate personnel, and audio recordings and "secured" for those who cannot read...

[glitterboy2098]

as far as symbology goes, most people, even if they can't read a particular language, can understand simple symbols.

for example, nearly everyone understands that a red cross means medical help, that a knife/fork/plate symbol stands for food, ect.


the CS would just expand on this.

a sheild for police, crossed rifles for military, red cross for hospitals, mortar and pistle for apothecary/drug store, ect.


orders for troops would be in the form of audio/video, with only the highest ranking officers (IE, those that can read) getting actual written paperwork.

[Vrykolas2k]

I wonder if prosek has syphillus like Hitler did? Might explain a few things {like his delusions of grandeur, thinking himself a military genius when all he really does is hurt his own military...}. At any rate, Prosek is lucky he has good military commanders though I must say most of them didn't show it on the Siege on Tolkeen. And the whole thing was a logistical nightmare. I also wonder where they got the mapower, and resources...

[Nekira Sudacne]

I've always believed it to be the fault of the people writing the stories having little to no actual strategic experience. You can get some good tactical moves for small squads from certain movies (Black Hawk Down and SWAT come to mind), but without knowledge of what support elements work where and why it works, all you have is individual units fending for themselves.

It's akin to writing a story about combat based solely on fiction movies and expecting the pieces to just fall into place. Suspension of reality does have its limitations.

Kevin Siembieda wanted to tell a story. he isn't in the military, and dosn't know the real details behind it all.

does that mean he shouldn't write a war story if he wants? no.

he dosn't care about realisem, he's an artist, and he can get abstract at worst.