REF Mecha Design Blunders?

[Lt. Holmes]

Another point is that by the time the REF mecha was designed, energy weapons had yet to be perfected to the point where they could be packed into a gun pod-type application.

It was only when the ASC mecha was designed that technology had advanced to the point that energy weapons could be as reliable and still pack as much damage as the older projectile-style weapons of the RDF and REF forces.

If you look at the Destroids, though, you'll note that almost all of their weapons are energy-based, with the exception of the MAC III and Spartan, which is a missle platform to begin with. Every one of the others is bristling with energy weapons galore and enough armour to take the beatings of a lifetime and still blow the crap out of their enemies.

And that's the whole point behind the Destroids. Veritechs, even Alpha's and Beta's, are relativly lightly armed and armoured because they have to be able to fly in an atmosphere and gravity, and regardless of how good your engines are, gravity will still suck them dry if the mecha is too heavy.

The Destroids don't have to worry about that and can mount an obscene amount of weapons. And the Destoids' main claim to fame is the amount of damage they can absorb and still keep coming, which is a terrifying thought.

The Alphas and Betas (along with all of the VFs in Robotech) have their places in the military machine of the REF, but they're hardly the be-all and end-all of the Armed Forces. They are for lightning-fast first strikes and quick calvary actions, and the Destroids are for long, drawn-out slugfests and general world-flattening assaults. The VFs are in first to soften up the enemy and then out before they can get creamed, and the Destroids and Zentradi follow and mop up after them, dealing with the nitty-gritty details of winning a war.

The Cyclones, aside from the obvious applications as a survival mecha and suit of powered armour, has thousands of battlefield applications. Recon, stealth missions, spec-war operations that require descretion and stealth as opposed to the big, lumbering mecha that simply cannot be hidden (Alphas, Betas, Destroids, etc.). The Cyclones can get in, do their job, and get out long before the enemy even knows they were there.

Cyclones would be idealy suited for sapper jobs and guerilla warfare, planting explosives and demolishing enemy bases, bridges, and other sundry activities that need to be done in a war. They would also excel at going in first as quick scouts, picking out locations and cooridinates for a Destroid assault or a VF strike.

And think of the non-battlefield applications for a power armour suit. BMEs, ammo-loaders, ship-board security, and EVA applications for space-born mechanics.


So as I said above, the Veritech technology is fantastic... but only one part of the overall military might of the REF. A proper balance of all the branches of the Armed Forces is the only way to wage a war for any length of time. Why would the leadership blind themselves to the uses of their other resources and focus soley on the relativivly expensive (in terms of maintanance and technical specs) transformation technology?


And as for those PC cells... well, they CAN be recharged by the ships they're attatched to. So it's concievable that any time a cell is run dry, it's hooked up to a PC generator and recharged. That way only one generator is needed for an entire combat wing (or two or three generators, depending on the numbers) instead of one generator per mecha, which would make miniaturization of the technology impossible.

[Lt. Holmes]

The supply of protoculture available to the human race was fixed. There was no more.

So instead of pretending that they can just burn through it all as if there was no end to it, they started to see their stockpiles go down. Every time a Destroid or RDF fighter was blown to bits, there goes YEARS supplies of protoculture that can't be replaced that could have been used by new machines comming off the assembly lines.

So very true.

The reallity is that in fact the REF/Mospeada mecha are powered by hydrogen fuel cells, not protoculture. It is one of those things I really dislike about the translation from Japanese to English and Carl Macek's odd plot decisions. I think the Japanese versions make more sense.

The only problem with that is in the Robotech world, Protoculture is what allows the mecha to move as they do, instead of lumbering along. No PC = no agile mecha, which I love. It makes the Robotech mecha different from the majority of other mecha out there. I also love how Palladium addressed this in the first Conversion Book, noting that nuclear conversion WILL restrict the mecha's mobility somewhat.

And running out of PC cells is one heck of a plot hook, don't you think?

[Lt. Holmes]

Incorrect. All of the Southern Cross mecha were built to run without protoculture and seem to suffer zero penalties for not having it.

At least, thats what the Southern Cross book says, though i havent read it in a long time so i might be remembering wrong.

Given the Palladium's explanation that the SC mecha are fusion-powered with just enough PC to initiate the man-machine link. That's something I've always admired, the way that PB explained away how the various mecha use PC and in what way. In the First Generation, they used PC generators to power their huge, lumbering mecha. In the Second Generation, they were running low on PC, so they used a combination of fusion power and PC. The Third Generation mecha used PC "batteries" as a way to shrink the mecha down in size.

For all its mistakes in terms of animation and whatnot, I think PB made one heck of an effort to explain away the backstory and more technical aspects of the show.

Though Alexander is right, this all starts with Macek - the man who thought a society was a mystical weed.

And by doing so, Macek brought about a show that I have enjoyed since the early 80s, which has spawned an RPG that I still play, various computer and console games, and some toys and models.

I've tried watching the original series' of each component of Robotech and I find them all lacking. I just enjoy the overall feel of Robotech, three generations of warriors fighting to free their planet from those who would do them harm. All three component shows are lacking that epic feel to them, I think.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Incorrect. All of the Southern Cross mecha were built to run without protoculture and seem to suffer zero penalties for not having it.

That is ONLY the novels and the RPG. The Tv series is very specific that the Army of the Southern Cross has access to protoculture. Both Generals Emerson and Leonard come to the conclusion very early that the Robotech Masters are after the Earth's stockpiles of protoculture. There is also the fact that the technology seems to have permeated every level of society.

Facts:

1.) Denver has access to protoculture in The Macross Saga. Why would a city need protoculture except to fuel a reflex furnace to provide power to the city (ala Mars Base Sara). It solves your energy requirements. Its not a stretch to believe that the UEG funded new power plants using reflex furnace designs.

2.) The absolute MOUNTAIN of protoculture and materiel garnered after the capture of thousands of wrecked but salvageable Zentraedi ships and the Robotech Factory Satellite probably couldn't be gone through in a hundred lifetimes. The idea that the REF took it all is absurd to say the least. Why the heck would the UEF gamble all of its power source on a mission that could very well be destroyed long before they encounter the Robotech Masters?

3.) In Dana's Story the Masters say that they have recordings of the area with the HIGHEST raiting of "proto-activity". Its not the ONLY place and certainly a single mecha using it likely wouldn't register. See the aforementioned city power plants.

4.) Brigadier General Emerson tells Colonel Rochelle in False Start that they know that the protoculture stockpile was what the aliens are after.

5.) The cola van driver in Curtain Call says he gets a ration of protoculture. Why would he need protoculture if its a controlled and dangerous substance? Probably to power his van....just like the AAT-30 and AAT-40 are powered by protoculture.

[AdmTolval]

I've always explained the protoculture cells as follows: Due to small supplies of protoculture, it is no longer vitable to make protoculture reactors in mechs. The amount of protoculture in a reactor could be used to power many protoculture cells. Lets say one reactor equals 100 cells. Those cells could be used to power any Veritech, Destroid, or Cyclone making them universal. Also about 20 veritechs could be powered now versus one. Also costs of sending out recovery teams to recover the reactor of downed mechs are greatly reduced. Also, there is no reason in the REF's mind on having such long power lifes for mechs. When building them, the logic was they would never be away from a base for more then a couple of months at the most. Why have a 20 year life? My players have accepted this answer.

[Svartalf]

Incorrect. All of the Southern Cross mecha were built to run without protoculture and seem to suffer zero penalties for not having it.

That is ONLY the novels and the RPG. The Tv series is very specific that the Army of the Southern Cross has access to protoculture..

Sorry... but I don't agree... I'm just fresh from watching RT:SC
(okay, dubbed in French so that adds a possibility of variations and translation mistakes, but still, the version is the one as part of the RT trilogy)

and I've noticed that there is strictly *no* mention of protoculture on the part of the terran forces. Actually, at first, they seem not even to understand what the RT Masters are after and what they mean. and it *does* seem that the only protoculture source on earth is what the French dubbing calls a "protoculture matrix" located at the site of the SF1 crash . You know, that place with the 3 circular mesas where so much happens (no matter that at the end of RT the SDF1 crashes in the lake at New Macross, the place with the flowers of life in SC is identified with the site)

my idea, is that after Kamjin's... err... Khyron kamikaze dive in Macross, the REF appropriated all protoculture, and all knowledge about it. and that the ASC and earth's civilian population just did with conventional tech... yes, you deem it ridiculous... still...

of course... since it was my first viewing, I may not have caught all the details, and you quote directly from scripture too... so I should go through more viewing to be sure. could you please remind me the episode numbers of Dana's Story, Curtain Call & False start? and where is it said that Denver has access to protoculture?

[Drakenred®™©]

Just a fair warning about the second part of robotec, it was from a Story that was kind of strange all around.

It takes place on another word that has 2 moons in another solar system (the second moon was airbrushed out in Robotech)

If I read it corectly, According to one of the original plot lines when they (the original Japanise produces, Not the HG-KM mess)were originaly developing it,

1)their was a predisesor colony that was suposed to teriform the planet, that group discovered a (?) Quazi(?) sentient plantlife that they were expeimenting with while they were teriforming the planet for the main colonists who were suposed to be following on later. one of their expiments got out of hand and they decided to abandon the planet using ships they built since they got their, however they had already started the teriforming process which invoved towing Comets to the planet to create water. they leave build a bunker with a warning about whathappend, then bombard the planet in order to rid it of "wild" plant except for a few storage locations, however the now unguided (?comets?) destroyed the bunkers that were suposed to have the warning.

2) second colony group shows up and finds a half teriformed world Nuked to heck and back, almost no trace of the original colonists and the wreakage of one of the bunkers. however they cant make heads of tails of what exactly happend which kind of makes them parinoid. they basicaly think another group wiped out the original colonists, and the recordings show what they THOUGHT were the people responsible for the bombardment. Unfortunatly their ship (the Glory?) cant go back to earth.

3) back on earth their is aparently some kind of war that breaks out causing a large section of the Comunications relay stations personel to desert and head back home to earth to try and find out who survived, (Efectivly no one) at about the time that the Original colony group shows back up and wants to salvage one (perferably all) of the stocks of Plants that they had stored away, and then leave perminently. they dont want anthing to do with the people of the planet below (who they now find unimaginativly primitive) Aparently many of their initial expirimets with the plants were not too successfull resulting in a lrge part of the population reverting to a Zombi like state, (and turning the Leaders into complete powerhungry and mildly Parinoid jerks who realy need a fix bad!) however they have since refined the process and are sure they can safely exploit the Quasi sentient plant without being bonded to it(Ironicaly Bonding with the plant will give then what they realy want but they did not realise it and for whatever reason they were afraid that it would take them over, the end sceen was suposed to show the leaders realising that they were wrong beffore they die/leave ). Unfortunatly the abupt abandonment of the relay station(this was changed to the Original colonist group atacking the Relay station) only convinces the curent Colonists that whoever whiped out the Original colony is back. Basicaly the whole Idea is that the original colony leaders wanted the benifit of the plant without the plant, but what every experiment with the plant to extract its "esence" resulted in somewhat unsatisfactory responces,(IE a need to use the Mistress of the harp to keep the population calm because aparently the plant extracts hangover will make you violent) and a dependance on the plant to produce the chemicals they now needed to keep from turning into mindless zombies.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

I've noticed that there is strictly *no* mention of protoculture on the part of the terran forces.

Eps. #37 Dana's Story

Master/Fleet Commander: 'The first transignal is of the area with the highest readings of proto-activity have been recorded'

Eps. #38 False Start

General Emerson: 'We know the protoculture supply was their objective gentlemen. You may be sure we will see them again.'

Eps. #39 Southern Cross

Unnamed Divisional Commander: 'What remains of the protoculture is our concern. It must be protected at all costs, even to the point of sacrificing lives if necessary.'

Eps. #50 Triumvirate

Narrator: 'Against the advice of General Emerson, Supreme Commander Leonard of the Southern Cross forces has elected to throw an all-out frontal assault at the enemy fleet in a desperate attempt to foil the aliens' designs on Earth's dwindling supply of protoculture

General Leonard: 'Proto-engineering has completed the first consignment of the new Armoured Gyro Assault Choppers, henceforth designated as AGACs.'

Eps. #54 Mind Games

Unnamed Spartas bio-maintenance engineer: 'This conversion mode proto-generator is shot, but I think Ive got time to repair it.'


If that isn't proof that the United Earth Forces during the 2nd Robotech War had access and use of protoculture...then I don't know what is. Those quotes are taken directly from the Tv series.

I'm sorry...but all of you are wrong on this point. The idea that the United Earth Forces and the United Earth Government would deprive themselves of the very resource that they need to run their military forces is ludicrous. Why would the UEG fund an expedition if that required the totality of their resources?

The UEG may very well need protoculture to power reflex furnaces to light cities. Watch eps. #31 Khyron's Revenge and then try to explain why a city government would have access to protoculture chamber if not to run a nuclear reactor. The Masters' comments concerning the highest levels of proto-activity would bear this theory out.

Face it guys, the UEF has protoculture to power its mecha and warships. They out and out say they are defending their stockpiles of it. Jack McKinney got it WRONG.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

As far as episode 31 is concerned, the chamber may have been stored there, to micronize Zentradi.

One real big problem with this line of reasoning. Khyron stole it and repowered a Monitor-class cannon ship. Said cannon ship even got a chance to fire its main gun. Thats far too much protoculture necessary just to micronize Zentraedi...something that is an onboard ship function. That would be like using a hydroelectric dam to power your toaster.

[glitterboy2098]

Ashrune wrote:

The UEG may very well need protoculture to power reflex furnaces to light cities. Watch eps. #31 Khyron's Revenge and then try to explain why a city government would have access to protoculture chamber if not to run a nuclear reactor. The Masters' comments concerning the highest levels of proto-activity would bear this theory out.

Face it guys, the UEF has protoculture to power its mecha and warships. They out and out say they are defending their stockpiles of it. Jack McKinney got it WRONG.

As far as episode 31 is concerned, the chamber may have been stored there, to micronize Zentradi.

One real big problem with this line of reasoning. Khyron stole it and repowered a Monitor-class cannon ship. Said cannon ship even got a chance to fire its main gun. Thats far too much protoculture necessary just to micronize Zentraedi...something that is an onboard ship function. That would be like using a hydroelectric dam to power your toaster.

actually, the "proto-culture chamber" is the sizing chamber that allows the zentreadi to switch sizes. (listen to lynn-kyle's dialog. he refers to the zentreadi's rights to change sizes when ever they want.) the reason the town has it is because it has a large zent population, and it was built around a crashed zent ship (interesting note, that city was early monument.)
the Khyron wanted to steal it so he could resize the dissidents he kept collecting. (notice he refers to this after he finally does steal it.)

in the episode seasons greating he attacks new macross and steals protoculture (not a chamber, but just a supply of protoculture.)

this supply was in the industrial sector, possibly the suply used to fuel mecha right off the assembly lines, or perhaps it was being stored for transfer to a powerplant somewhere.

[Zer0 Kay]

As far as episode 31 is concerned, the chamber may have been stored there, to micronize Zentradi.

One real big problem with this line of reasoning. Khyron stole it and repowered a Monitor-class cannon ship. Said cannon ship even got a chance to fire its main gun. Thats far too much protoculture necessary just to micronize Zentraedi...something that is an onboard ship function. That would be like using a hydroelectric dam to power your toaster.

Well if the Zentradi Micronization chamber takes 120V at 60Hz then they'd probably use something else.

I did power my toaster with a Hydroelectric Dam of course so did everyone else in the town.