how many sons can a Grunt afford to feed/shelter on 1700 credits a month?

[Plane]

RUE 233 mentions the salary. Normally you don't have to think of your own food costs since...
"a roof over h i s head, food, clothing, and all other basics provided free as part of his pay"

But what about providing for a family? Do we have a chart w/ general guidelines on monthly food costs, rent costs, etc?

Just curious economically how much spare cash a family-man Grunt OCC would have lying around and how much they might need to supplement their salary with other forms of income.

[glitterboy2098]

going to depend a lot on conditional factors. the 'roof over his head, food, clothing' etc is probably going to mean his own barracks living for the Grunt. i doubt that he'd have his own apartment, though certainly he might be able to pay for one out of his monthly fee.

also, ages of the family? if he's got a wife or other adult relative who can also work while watching the kids, it gets easier. odds are if he's only got a bunch of kids, the CS would enroll them into a version of daycare/boarding school (very heavy on indoctrination of course) and/or a form of Foster Home. if so he might not even have to pay for anything out of his own pocket.

[taalismn]

the CS would enroll them into a version of daycare/boarding school (very heavy on indoctrination of course) and/or a form of Foster Home. if so he might not even have to pay for anything out of his own pocket.

The Tiny Skulls Firearms and Cookies Club. Very popular with working class CS families struggling to make ends meet

[Grazzik]

Ok any number will be a wild shot in the dark, but maybe we can do some approximations.

IRL the cost of living for a US family of four is $9K/month +$1K.
Gold is ~3x $ to Universal Credits.
Assuming the inherent value of gold is consistent...

The average cost of living for a CS family of four is 3000 Credits/month.

This is about right if per person costs for food is about 15 credits/day, telco is 100 credits/month, apt rent were 500 credits/month, sundries another 200 credits/month. This leaves 100 credits for discretionary spending... a night out once a week.

Families would require two average incomes of 1500 credits/month. Limited savings... but why worry when you might be eaten by a demon next week. Family bonuses for breeding are likely widespread.

Grunts may get subsidies, vouchers or Hero Groupons as a bonus for breeding as they likely have the desired genetic traits for survival ... enough bonuses to cover family basics and help them put a few credits aside. The state boarding school idea is a definite likelihood. Parent gets bonus if kid excels or is psychic, but likely never sees kid ever again. Female grunts may get substantial rewards for sending kids to State School to pursue her military career, as clearly she's got the desired level of genetic Human fortitude.

[Plane]

I'm not sure if we can use gold as a baseline here because its rarity might've changed w/ the coming of the rifts

The best guideline I can remember is Vampire Kingdoms had some hotels which gave rates for food and board, as sort of an upper limit since I'm sure long-term agreements end up being cheaper.

I agree it makes sense there's probably breeding incentives (long as you breed when the CS says it's the right time) and vouchers and so on.

[Grazzik]

I'm not sure if we can use gold as a baseline here because its rarity might've changed w/ the coming of the rifts

The best guideline I can remember is Vampire Kingdoms had some hotels which gave rates for food and board, as sort of an upper limit since I'm sure long-term agreements end up being cheaper.

I agree it makes sense there's probably breeding incentives (long as you breed when the CS says it's the right time) and vouchers and so on.

Looking at Ciudad Juarez...
Food

• Juanita's Boarding House, 12cr per meal
• Lebeau's French Cuisine, 15cr per meal
• Hogies-Heroes, 4-10cr per sandwich
• Mexicalli Rose Restaurant, 10-18cr per meal

Prices in MercTown, Firetown and elsewhere seem to be in the same range. So, for food, the 3x works for eating out.

Shelter

• North Juarez Apts, 3000/month
• Rio Apts, 800/month

For rent, in Juarez you are paying for security and private toilets. In ChiTown, that would all come with being a city resident, so not at a premium. Also, it's not clear if the CS permits private ownership/commercial rentals... housing could be run by the State. CS economics not discussed in the books. In a State-run economy, they could set the price of rent to whatever they believe is in the best interest of the State. So even if rent is 1000cr/month, it still fits to 3x in a big city... and just like IRL would put inceedible budget pressure on people who earn average wages.

[ShadowLogan]

IRL the cost of living for a US family of four is $9K/month +$1K.
Gold is ~3x $ to Universal Credits.
Assuming the inherent value of gold is consistent...

That COL in the US is in 2025 dollars correct, but we have to remember that the book(s) in question where written circa 1990 something, and even with the RUE update (or CWC) I don't think they changed that so the CoL (per Google's AI results) in 1990 for the US was between $3.5-4k per month (and Michigan area specifically which probably influenced KS editorial/writing choices the median income was $2.5k per month as some areas of the country are cheaper to live than others, hence lower CoL).

So we can't use modern CoL for a system that likely has its prices rooted from 35 years ago (if not longer), and likely geography would play a part to.

Even the UC to Gold to covert to US Dollars doesn't work, given the ratio of $ to Gold changes over time. IINM there is equipment in the RMB given in Credits, but also appears in HU settings (with cost in dollars), so that might give a better conversion.

[Aermas]

I would guess most prices are based on American circa 90's-00's prices. Same with the military based pay probably. If the Grunt has a family, then they're probably living in a CS military family housing block. The CS is big on family & dynasty, they're going to encourage big families & incentivize safety for the family so the grunts don't have to worry about them when fighting to rid the world of vile demons & the monstrous things that come out of the rifts. So let's say the Grunt's wife gets to live in a place with other army wives, & they receive waivers/stipend to cover the cost of most basic living expenses within reason. The wife probably also has a job to gain additional spending income while the kids go to CS daycare & CS cadet schools.

[Grazzik]

IRL the cost of living for a US family of four is $9K/month +$1K.
Gold is ~3x $ to Universal Credits.
Assuming the inherent value of gold is consistent...

That COL in the US is in 2025 dollars correct, but we have to remember that the book(s) in question where written circa 1990 something, and even with the RUE update (or CWC) I don't think they changed that so the CoL (per Google's AI results) in 1990 for the US was between $3.5-4k per month (and Michigan area specifically which probably influenced KS editorial/writing choices the median income was $2.5k per month as some areas of the country are cheaper to live than others, hence lower CoL).

So we can't use modern CoL for a system that likely has its prices rooted from 35 years ago (if not longer), and likely geography would play a part to.

Even the UC to Gold to covert to US Dollars doesn't work, given the ratio of $ to Gold changes over time. IINM there is equipment in the RMB given in Credits, but also appears in HU settings (with cost in dollars), so that might give a better conversion.

Fair enough, wasn't intended to be anything more than a way to show that on an approximate basis, Rifts prices in the books were reasonably aligned with the Rifts wages for grunts.

Whether you use 1990 $s or 2025 $s, the relative basket of costs are similar. 1990 gold was $380 and you could buy a McD cheeseburger for less than $0.80. Today, gold is almost $3400 and a cheeseburger is $2.40. Exact science? No. Equal rates of inflation? No. But the relative bundle of food/shelter costs is roughly going in the same direction no matter what currency you are using.

Bottom line... monthly rent in a CS megacity could reasonably range between 500cr and 1500cr for moderate lodging, with an average of 1000cr. This would be reasonably sustainable for a two income household, both earning roughly grunt-level wages.

Aermas' point is well taken and is the most workable approach in a game context... a militarized society facing existential threats daily are likely going to make sure their troops stay in the fight rather than packing up their families and running at the first sign of trouble.

Folks should feel free to go further than that with respect to economic headcanon, but I'm not sure how it will help defeat the nasty Brodkil army marching over the hill...

[ShadowLogan]

I do agree that the pricing in the books likely does allow for "real world" living equivalents (family with 2.5 kids and a pet or two).

It might also be worth considering if the CS (or another power block/location) would want both parents "working" or not. Its easy to look at the modern approach of 2-income family and treat that as normal/expected, but it wasn't always this way (and in some parts of the world it still isn't). Now when KS likely did pricing in comparison to the real world, two-income requirements may not have been as prevalent as they are today (or as needed).

I'm just saying some assumptions might not hold up in the long term (say revisit the idea in 5 or 10 years, will the real world comparison still hold up?) if we look at contemporary values. There are recommended distributions for the way a monthly pay check is to be broken down by expenditures (50% for Needs, 30% for wants, 20% for savings) that are more universal and might be a better gauge than working out using changing real world values (since the game world is largely "static").

[Aermas]

Some of this post might seem political, I am just trying to be objective here & I am not making any political statements about our real world, merely theorize about the economical situation of fictitious places.

In our own history contemporary two income households led to an extreme wage stagnation as those in power saw a sudden burgeoning of wealth in the lower classes post WW2 & the feminist movement. They saw this sudden spending power as a threat & so they manipulated prices & wages until what used to take one income now takes two to keep the staus quo. Instead of the capitalism they say they use, the rich avoid competition & consequences by holding economies ransom unless the State interferes or forces new legislation in their favor.
While I don't see the CS as run by unchecked rich people controlling the politicians like modern times, they are utilitarian, authoritarian, & State focused, much like many economies today. They'd rather have both parents working so that the State has a more active role over their children. If parents have to work then that means their kids will go to a state run daycare/school, which means they can influence them with propaganda & indoctrination better than if they were being primarily raised by their parents. Also, if the CS makes so that their income is insufficient for survival then the family would be reliant on supplementary aid from the State, which makes them need to be compliant with State control & theyd more favorable of the State which is "so generous". So you can make it pretty dire & evilly manipulative if you want just using practices being used today. Personally I wouldn't go this far as I like to keep the CS as terribly terribly "necessary evil" not diabolical evil with no reason while it's citizens are largely ignorant but good at heart, like how they use skelebots for a lot of their patrols & fighting so as not to waste the precious lives of humanity they are trying to protect. The CS wants to seem good & so would at least take care of it's soldiers/citizens & treat them fairly,(even if everyone else gets the shaft though)

[Shorty Lickens]

they live in a government dictatorship paradise, so the State probably gives basic things like food, water, shelter, maybe limited entertainment, and medicine.
You gotta remember real Coalition citizens actually live much better than the scum in those filthy 'burbs.

[Fenris2020]

The average 1.7.

[Shorty Lickens]

The average 1.7.

OK?
I am not receiving what you are trying to deliver.
Can we have more to go on?

[Aermas]

I think he's talking about the average household birthrate, which if that's true holy crap that's sad. We need more children. As for how that pertains to the CS & Rifts, I don't know

[Wise_Owl]

So, as always, there is the 'Watsonian' answer(the answer within the world of Rifts itself) and the 'Doyelist answer'(The Answer in which we recognize that everything written was written and just kinda made up by guys less interested in developing social dynamics at play and more interested in 'pew-pew-pew' Big Robot go BOOM!)

The Coalition as portrayed is... inconsistent, especially on issues of sociology and economics. Mostly beccause it serves as a cartoon villian in Rifts and thus having to consider whether it's economy 'makes sense' is against the point.

Sociologically it appears the Coalition, unlike most modern fascistic powers, is not overtly sexist and patriarchal, though is those things in a sort of 'lesser' way. i.e. Women serve in combat positions, can be in leadership roles, but are much less likely then men to do either.

Given other Fascistic governments and especially given the context the coalition puts forward(i.e. We are the last stand of humanity against the Demonic Hordes!) I would expect that familial support and especially large families are likely to have economic backing behind them. i.e. I would expect something like the awards system instituted in the Third Reich, perhaps even more tied to resources. Probably some weirdo 'Mother of the Coalition' Award you get if you have a certain number of kids who survive the first five years or something.

I echo the earlier sentiment that women working is likely to be somewhat normative, both for historical reasons and because unless their are staunch ideological reasons to, employinig women in your workforce is one of those 'not doing it just doens't add up' things. Productive output simply goes up too far to ignore. State run day-cares and schools are also almost assuredly not just the norm, but given the CS's particular focus on propoganda and social control, anything else is likely illegal(see the rogue scholar).

So the Average 'Grunt' with a Family is likely looking at a partner who is working one way or another, with likely increasing social support for the more kids they have. Conversly the Coalition also strikes me as the sort of place where resource distribution to the miltiary is prioritized over the civilian basis and there may be efforts to sustaiin that economic distribution that have odd knock-on effects.

I would also assume there is probably a pretty decent pension/medical benefits for troops and their famiiliies, encourages enlistment and providing an obvious system of loyalty for said soldiers and an easy route of punishment for those who step out of line.

So the answer to the initial quesiton I think is; wages are likely not the paramount consideration for family developement for soldiers in the Coalition states.

[Fenris2020]

I think he's talking about the average household birthrate, which if that's true holy crap that's sad. We need more children. As for how that pertains to the CS & Rifts, I don't know

Yes, you beat me to answering.
However, I don't see how you'll increase the birth rate in a fixed arcology like a fortress-city. They'll have to spread out into the Burbs, which strangely would make them non-citizens.

[Fenris2020]

So, as always, there is the 'Watsonian' answer(the answer within the world of Rifts itself) and the 'Doyelist answer'(The Answer in which we recognize that everything written was written and just kinda made up by guys less interested in developing social dynamics at play and more interested in 'pew-pew-pew' Big Robot go BOOM!)

The Coalition as portrayed is... inconsistent, especially on issues of sociology and economics. Mostly beccause it serves as a cartoon villian in Rifts and thus having to consider whether it's economy 'makes sense' is against the point.

Sociologically it appears the Coalition, unlike most modern fascistic powers, is not overtly sexist and patriarchal, though is those things in a sort of 'lesser' way. i.e. Women serve in combat positions, can be in leadership roles, but are much less likely then men to do either.

Given other Fascistic governments and especially given the context the coalition puts forward(i.e. We are the last stand of humanity against the Demonic Hordes!) I would expect that familial support and especially large families are likely to have economic backing behind them. i.e. I would expect something like the awards system instituted in the Third Reich, perhaps even more tied to resources. Probably some weirdo 'Mother of the Coalition' Award you get if you have a certain number of kids who survive the first five years or something.

I echo the earlier sentiment that women working is likely to be somewhat normative, both for historical reasons and because unless their are staunch ideological reasons to, employinig women in your workforce is one of those 'not doing it just doens't add up' things. Productive output simply goes up too far to ignore. State run day-cares and schools are also almost assuredly not just the norm, but given the CS's particular focus on propoganda and social control, anything else is likely illegal(see the rogue scholar).

So the Average 'Grunt' with a Family is likely looking at a partner who is working one way or another, with likely increasing social support for the more kids they have. Conversly the Coalition also strikes me as the sort of place where resource distribution to the miltiary is prioritized over the civilian basis and there may be efforts to sustaiin that economic distribution that have odd knock-on effects.

I would also assume there is probably a pretty decent pension/medical benefits for troops and their famiiliies, encourages enlistment and providing an obvious system of loyalty for said soldiers and an easy route of punishment for those who step out of line.

So the answer to the initial quesiton I think is; wages are likely not the paramount consideration for family developement for soldiers in the Coalition states.

Women in most combat roles really doesn't work that well. I had to carry my own body-weight or sometimes more, for MILES. I had to be able to pick up and carry my battle-buddy for 100 yards, and he outweighed me by 50 lbs. Women can't perform these duties, on the whole. Now if women had the same physical standards as men and could pass them, that would work.
The combat roles that women can perform adequately are piloting and vehicular roles.
As for the rest of your points, I'd pretty much agree with you. There might be incentives to have a higher birth-rate and so on, but like I said in another post, the over-flow would have to go into the Burbs. There's only so much room in a fortress-city.

[Aermas]

I think he's talking about the average household birthrate, which if that's true holy crap that's sad. We need more children. As for how that pertains to the CS & Rifts, I don't know

Yes, you beat me to answering.
However, I don't see how you'll increase the birth rate in a fixed arcology like a fortress-city. They'll have to spread out into the Burbs, which strangely would make them non-citizens.

Slow expansion. Every so often they bulldoze everything near the wall & build a new wall with new CS citizen housing, etc. The Burbs can't do anything against it

[Library Ogre]

I lean towards "1 credit = 1$", keeping in mind that the numbers were written years ago.

1700$ a month in 1990 is about 3200$ in 2025.

[Fenris2020]

I think he's talking about the average household birthrate, which if that's true holy crap that's sad. We need more children. As for how that pertains to the CS & Rifts, I don't know

Yes, you beat me to answering.
However, I don't see how you'll increase the birth rate in a fixed arcology like a fortress-city. They'll have to spread out into the Burbs, which strangely would make them non-citizens.

Slow expansion. Every so often they bulldoze everything near the wall & build a new wall with new CS citizen housing, etc. The Burbs can't do anything against it

Why not just make the people in the Burbs citizens, and then expand from there?
The Burbs are pretty much nonsense to begin with.

[Aermas]

Because the Burbs are full of non humans & has no real infrastructure. The Burbs is a huge shanty town growing off of Chi-Town like a tumor.

[Fenris2020]

Because the Burbs are full of non humans & has no real infrastructure. The Burbs is a huge shanty town growing off of Chi-Town like a tumor.

Yep, lots of contradictions to unpack here.
Especially when the CS fans decide to be obtuse about any arguments against CS policies as written in the books.

[Aermas]

How are there any contradictions? If Chi-Town's population expands then it needs to expand its city's development. This means new construction, like every town in history. The Burbs are not an official town, it's all defacto, it happened all the time in history that large capitals with restrictive entry (usually by taxes) would have shanty towns full of merchants, rogues & undesirables propped up outside its walls that formed their own mini-town. So if the CS needs space they will clear space from their territory. It's not going to necessarily be wanton destruction but eminent domain. Will the CS gun down anything that gets in its way? Absolutely. But it isn't evil or contradictive to grow a city. The Burbs are not CS citizens, hell a lot of them are people the CS doesn't even want. But they don't kill them because as long as they don't cause problems then there's greater monsters to focus on. So the people of the Burbs have to clear out & rebuild, but they were basically squatters in the first place.

[Library Ogre]

TBH, I think the CS is less likely to clear the burbs for expansion than they are to try to settle more people elsewhere; I see it as one of the central tensions within their human population: lots of people want the safety of the fortress city, and are hoping to get in there. The CS, though, wants to expand, and would love to send people to the hinterlands to found new settlements.

The people who want to be in want the security of the fortress cities. The PTB would love to have more citizens, but only if they're out on the border, expanding the CS.

[Wise_Owl]

There are intriguing sets of questions here about population pressures within the Arcologies of the Coalition; how costly is it for them to expand the things, do they do so outward, or upward? How does the coalition brass look at population and population control, and especially on resource distribution?

I would expect lots of propoganda of a colonialist mindset, but would that be enough to get large enough groups to move to prevent population pressures within the Arcologies?

[Library Ogre]

I tend to assume that the fortress cities are pretty unexpandable, and given the social prestige of being on the upper levels, they definitely wouldn't choose to go up (and, if the pictures are correct and they are pyramidal, it's going to be hard to go higher without also going outward).

I think the CS would meet a lot of its goals for expansion with new fortress cities, but I also assume, since they generally don't do that, that a fortress city is either beyond them, or simply too expensive for them to do. My headcanon is that they made New Chillicothe, and said "Wow, this was really expensive, let's never do this again", and so you get more traditional layouts in most Coalition settlements.

[Aermas]

Well look at it this way. If you (the CS) wanted to create a new settlement, the first thing youd do is move your soldiers out there. But that would also mean they're far from their families. So you move the families out there too. Keeps the families close, gives the soldiers a reason to care & it gives the CS a new settlement & pacified territory.

So you get some volunteers, maybe you even make some of them Juicers & borgs. They go steamroll an new territory. Lots of SAMAS & skelebot support too. Then you start building. The CS outpost becomes a town with strong walls & military presence. You ship in the families. The Juicers go into detox & become farmers if they want. The borgs go into mining if they want. Ta da your settlement is settled.

[Library Ogre]

To an extent, yeah, and that's arguably what they've done in Beaumont. My view, however, is that such are seldom FOBs, but retirement pieces for officers and NCOs. Rather than committing manpower to defending them, they offload surplus onto a former colonel or CSM, who takes some guys fresh off their hitch, and set up a settlement.

[Grazzik]

Or... you can do both ... build new fortress cities and expand existing ones.

RUE pg 29 - building Waukegan, largest ever attempted
RUE pg 29 - typically build walls around an existing city to make it a fortress city
WB13 pg 15 - station troops, attract settlers, scientists and researchers (and their families), take in locals/peasants
WB13 pg 15 - Lone Star City is being built modular so it can expand "out and up (like Chi-Town)"

[glitterboy2098]

I also tend to assume that there are lesser fortified communities across the CS. Not fortress city type things but closer to your traditional walled towns. Which would be the center for various military outposts, mining centers, farms/ranches, and other such things. Giving both civilian housing for families, as well as service industry for the surrounding places. (Bars, restaurants, stores, etc)
Living there wouldn't be as prestigious as being in a fortress city, but would be easier to apply to get into, especially if one or more family members sign up to work in the nearby industries.