Forums of the Megaverse®

Posted: **Sat May 29, 2021 12:54 pm**

Rogerd wrote: @Fenris2020
It is designed for fast and easy chargen
Fast gameplay
Highly cinematic

And alongside Pathfinder, DnD, Savage Worlds has some of the most varied settings to game in.

As to the skills, you simply pick Expertise, and a skill and then there you go. In the same way Pathfinder does the same with Lore, Knowledge etc. They are designed to emcompass a lot of skills. Now you could easily substitute sone for PB skill categories and accomplish the same thing.

So the waters run broad and shallow.

Posted: **Sat May 29, 2021 1:45 pm**

I've always thought Skraypers needs about another 100 pages or so.

There's some great Rifter material for Wormwood that could and should be expanded upon to full sourcebook size.

Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 9:36 pm**

Rogerd wrote:No it isn't anything like one - not even close.
Mary Sue always succeeds, heroes can, should, and do fail - all the time. Then eventually succeed in the end.

That's good because from your comments about Heroes needing to be a cut above and receiving extra dice made it sound like you wanted them to be Mary Sues.

Sambot wrote:2. Maybe you could tell my where in the core books it says Heroes are better? I can't find it. You're also proving my point with Conan. He isn't unbeatable. Also being better than everyone else doesn't make one a hero. It's actions. Sometimes it's the weakest people who are the greatest heroes.

I am proving my point, not yours, as Heroes are not unbeatable, but they are better than normal people and stand up for those weaker. Look at what Oliver Queen said in Arrow crossover Crisis on Earth-X. "The strong protect the weak."

Would pre-super soldier serum Steve Rogers be larger than life?

Palladium Fantasy page 62
I find it curious that many players often seem to miss the fact that they are playing larger than life heroes in a fantastic world. This is particularly true of the setting in The Palladium Fantasy Game.

The player characters in the Palladium World are not Joe Average. Larger than life, these characters step out of the shadows and into the realm of legend.

They are heroes who dare to dream and are willing to fight to attain that dream.

Thank you. I'd say that covers Palladium Fantasy but then it lists Priest of Darkness, Witch and Thief as OCCs. The Thief I can see. Robin Hood.
The others? Other books also have evil OCCs and RCCs. Although I can see Captain Blood style Pirates. However, the OCC section comes after Alignments which contains three evil alignments. So I don't think everyone is a hero. Unless the party is evil and then they'd be evil heroes?

That section you quote also says

The typical person in the Palladium World is a farmer, fisherman, smith, carpenter, weaver, craftsman, or other hard working individual trying to support himself and his family.

And then one of the OCCs listed for players is Vgabond/Peasant/Farmer. There's a Merchant OCC. Fisherman is in Bizantium. Blacksmith, Lumberjack, Fletcher, and others are in Northern Hinterlands. There's lots of OCCs for typical people. Maybe so the Average Joe can rise up and become stuff of legend?

Heroes Unlimited page 40
we take the premise that supermen have walked the Earth since the beginning of the human race! Stories, myths and legends about great heroes, prophets, oracles, demigods and gods (Beowolf, Gilgamesh, Vishnu, Bishamon, Merlin, King Arthur, Hercules, Thor,
and countless others) may actually recount tales about real people with superhuman powers

So yeah, the heroes are a cut above the rest. Literally walking legends, and like in all stories must have their antithesis.

Yes, but you can also create Villians like Morgana, Mordred, Ares, Loki, Hele and countless others. And again, evil alignments. So Heroes Unlimited isn't all Heroes.

Sambot wrote:3. The ability to create Villains well as evil OCCs says otherwise. As for using source material, I give you Steve Rogers. He was small and weak and he was a hero before he ever received the super soldier serum. In the movie, Steve dove on the grenade to save everyone else. Colonel Phillips' chosen one, who was everything Steve Rogers wasn't, hid behind a car. If we go by your reasoning though, that character because he was physically better than Steve Rogers should be the Hero.

Code: Select all

You have literally missed the entire point of what being a hero is. Creating villains, and heroes are there to follow literary tropes, protagonist and antagonist. It is why heroes go through mooks, they're unimportant in the story. Look at season 1 of Arrow where Oliver rescues Walter Steele.

https://youtu.be/msynFewsIN0?t=353

He literally goes through a corridor of mooks. Nothing Gary Stu about that. Now the fear part, and hiding behind a car - that is what makes a hero, fighting your inner demons like fear, hesitation, and then being the hero. Oliver had this in season 1 when the Dark Archer kicked his ass. He later went on to beat his fear, and then the Dark Archer (Malcolm Merlyn).

Let's refer to my previous point, regarding mythology. Zeus fought Typhon, got his ass beat, imprisoned, but once freed went on to kick Typhon's ass. Heroes and Villains are a trope; Good vs Evil.

And you missed my point. Any type of character can be played. Heroes, average people, villains. IF these games were Hero only, we wouldn't have a choice in picking evil alignments, OCCs, or RCCs. They'd be stamped NPC! Non Player Character Only.

Sambot wrote:4. Which would mean that they'd have different skill sets making each OCC different.

Which is dependant upon setting. But again, all these differences can be picked at chargen, making each one unique. For instance some SW settings have different names for metaphysics but are in reality the same thing - the ability to use magic. But each one is a riff or theme to add flavour to the setting.

SW Beasts & Barbarians called Monks ability Metaphysics Enlightenment, while in Shaintar it is called The Way. Same thing, more-or-less, but setting specific to evoke flavour, or colour.

Which makes them different characters. A Coalition States Grunt is different from a Grunt from the Republic of Cordoba even though they start off with the same OCC.

Sambot wrote:5. The amount of XP determines what level your on, which determines your skill percentage, power capabilities, and ability to learn new skills and powers.

Now revelation for you, most games DO NOT use levels.
So trying to ascribe levels to the use of XP us utter rubbish man.
DnD / PF provide new powers with each level. Using XP means your current abilities improve.
Two completely different metrics for measuring advancement.
I literally said exactly this is my last post.

Every RPG I've played or even looked at has levels. It's how you know your character improves. XP tells you how close or far your character is from improving. You get Y number of XP and you go up a level. Going up a level means your skills improve and you may get you new skills or powers. The one effects the other.

Sambot wrote:6. As opposed to computer drawn ****? Art is subjective. One person can see something beautiful the other sees ****.

I have a feeling a 12 year old with moderate talent in art could actually do better than most of Palladium's art - and they would even use a computer to do it. Point is that art was fine for the time, 80's, early 90's. Nowadays, it is just lazy.

We have the god pictured in Dragons and Gods, with several dragons breathing flame and circling him, or the below from Magic the Gathering.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/25/e6/31 ... b72679.jpg

Now this is the kind of art we should be getting, not the substandard crap PB put out.

That would be your opinion and in some cases, I'd agree. Some art is better than others.

The Dragons and Gods cover? It's okay. I can't say I care for the one you linked too. Having such art, good or bad, for every picture would also substantially increase the cost of the book. Not something I'd want. Frankly, I'd rather pay a low price for bad art than a high price.

Color art also means you can't color it and make it your own. I could take a line art of an Archer and make one Robin Hood, another Hawkeye, another representing nameless NPCs, just by changing colors. You can't do that with a color picture. Not easily any way.

I'm presuming Savage Worlds is in color. According to their website a 208 page book is $40. Rifts UE is 376 pages and $42. I think I'll stick with Palladium.

Sambot wrote:7. That's cool. It was sounding like they didn't from your complaint a couple posts above. I'm going to presume you enjoy playing it. Which makes me wonder why you want to change Rifts? Why not just play the game you enjoy?

I do, and am about to play a multiverse SW game drawing from Lords of Gossamer and Magic the Gathering. Savage Worlds has one of the most diverse list of settings currently - obviously still doing Savage Rifts, but now Savage Pathfinder. But in it I will be using a lot of the PB Fantasy classes, with HU skill programs.

That's great. Diverse in letting you play in other's universes or diverse in that the game has a huge universe to play in? I know Palladium is the latter but I can use Palladium to play in other universes if I wanted or create my own.

Let me give you an example power.

Blast - is essentially some form of ranged attack effective on one person. Now if I had the trappings of fire, it would be a fire ball, but it would not mean I could do a lightning bolt. Now if I picked the Edge, New Power, and added lightning trapping it would also mean I could cast a lightning and a fireball.

In essence you remove the need for a gazillion spells. Each trapping adds a different twist on the power you have. The same goes for just about every power, whether Burst (AoE), Barrier, Protection, Shields etc. Cost and output is the same. And combat is fast and simple.

What's the difference? Palladium lists each variation separately. Save Worlds lists a generic abilities with lots of variations. You still have a lot of choices for what amounts to the same ability. In fact, SW actually adds a step. You can't just pick Fireball. You have to pick Blast and then the Fireball trapping. How is that better?

Same thing for skills. But you could easily switch out some of them and add in HU skill programs, and use the Expertise skill to include specifics each player wants to know.

I'm still not seeing how that helps. I do think there should be more skills, but I don't think characters should have every skill in a category.
Sure there can be a lot of overlap in skills. Your car mechanic could work on an airplane or boat engine but that doesn't mean he could get it to fly or float. It just means that after some work he could get the engine started. It sure doesn't mean he can be working on a Jet Fighter's weapon systems. Your General Practitioner Doctor isn't going to have every specialty found in a big major hospital. They're not going to be Optometrists, Dentists, and Veterinarians at the same time. When every character can do everything what's the point of OCCs and MOSs, or Elective Skill Bonuses? Everyone can do everything.

Posted: **Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:58 pm**

Palladium's skill system could be improved upon, but a Dimension Book isn't the place for a revamp.

I could see value in a DB building off of 7:Megaverse Builder with depictions of multiple dimensions, each writeup having an entry describing skill availability and granularity(e.g. Cinematic/Tech Level 5/Public Education 2). These differing approachs would have been previously detailed in a dedicated megaversal skill book. Reasonable people can disagree on which goals should be prioritized in such a book, whether it be relative backwards compatibility, skill groups, skill tiers, degrees of success, modeling setting constraints, systematically detailing/subdividing possible skills, addressing current idiosyncrasies, inclusion of H2H skills, or perhaps most importantly extraordinary crafting. If a skill book left the latter to a separate, setting-independent Hardware Unlimited-style book, I think a really great resource could fit in a book the size of a Rifter. If combined that of the Book of Magic.

Posted: **Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:46 pm**

Yes pre super soldier serum Steve Roger's is larger than life. He has a stronger character/moral base than the best normal human. But your also proving the point that even if pre super serum Steve rogers was just a normal human then the serum makes him a more than a cut above but not a Marty Stu. He goes from a legitimately morally superior human and gets those bonus die.

Posted: **Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:00 am**

Curbludgeon wrote:Palladium's skill system could be improved upon, but a Dimension Book isn't the place for a revamp.

I could see value in a DB building off of 7:Megaverse Builder with depictions of multiple dimensions, each writeup having an entry describing skill availability and granularity(e.g. Cinematic/Tech Level 5/Public Education 2). These differing approachs would have been previously detailed in a dedicated megaversal skill book. Reasonable people can disagree on which goals should be prioritized in such a book, whether it be relative backwards compatibility, skill groups, skill tiers, degrees of success, modeling setting constraints, systematically detailing/subdividing possible skills, addressing current idiosyncrasies, inclusion of H2H skills, or perhaps most importantly extraordinary crafting. If a skill book left the latter to a separate, setting-independent Hardware Unlimited-style book, I think a really great resource could fit in a book the size of a Rifter. If combined that of the Book of Magic.

It's the megaversal skill book with conversions that I'm interested in. I don't think it'd fit in a book the size of a Rifter though.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Yes pre super soldier serum Steve Roger's is larger than life. He has a stronger character/moral base than the best normal human. But your also proving the point that even if pre super serum Steve rogers was just a normal human then the serum makes him a more than a cut above but not a Marty Stu. He goes from a legitimately morally superior human and gets those bonus die.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/larger-than-life
If someone is larger than life, that person attracts a lot of attention because they are more exciting or interesting than most people:

If getting attention for being beat up a lot is Larger than life? Then sure he is. Otherwise, he's just a guy who gets beat up a lot. If a high moral character gets attention then he totally fits. So I don't think that fits either. He did get attention for taking down the flag pole and jumping on the grenade. So maybe? He wasn't normal though. He was below average that's why he couldn't get in the military.

I also didn't say that he was a Marty Stu. The super soldier serum only made him better than the average person. Better than other super serum soldiers? Now that would make him a Marty Stu.

Posted: **Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:07 pm**

Sambot wrote:
Curbludgeon wrote:Palladium's skill system could be improved upon, but a Dimension Book isn't the place for a revamp.

I could see value in a DB building off of 7:Megaverse Builder with depictions of multiple dimensions, each writeup having an entry describing skill availability and granularity(e.g. Cinematic/Tech Level 5/Public Education 2). These differing approachs would have been previously detailed in a dedicated megaversal skill book. Reasonable people can disagree on which goals should be prioritized in such a book, whether it be relative backwards compatibility, skill groups, skill tiers, degrees of success, modeling setting constraints, systematically detailing/subdividing possible skills, addressing current idiosyncrasies, inclusion of H2H skills, or perhaps most importantly extraordinary crafting. If a skill book left the latter to a separate, setting-independent Hardware Unlimited-style book, I think a really great resource could fit in a book the size of a Rifter. If combined that of the Book of Magic.

It's the megaversal skill book with conversions that I'm interested in. I don't think it'd fit in a book the size of a Rifter though.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Yes pre super soldier serum Steve Roger's is larger than life. He has a stronger character/moral base than the best normal human. But your also proving the point that even if pre super serum Steve rogers was just a normal human then the serum makes him a more than a cut above but not a Marty Stu. He goes from a legitimately morally superior human and gets those bonus die.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/larger-than-life
If someone is larger than life, that person attracts a lot of attention because they are more exciting or interesting than most people:

If getting attention for being beat up a lot is Larger than life? Then sure he is. Otherwise, he's just a guy who gets beat up a lot. If a high moral character gets attention then he totally fits. So I don't think that fits either. He did get attention for taking down the flag pole and jumping on the grenade. So maybe? He wasn't normal though. He was below average that's why he couldn't get in the military.

I also didn't say that he was a Marty Stu. The super soldier serum only made him better than the average person. Better than other super serum soldiers? Now that would make him a Marty Stu.

larger than life
phrase of life
(of a person) attracting special attention because of unusual and flamboyant appearance or behavior.
"Scorsese's stories have always featured larger-than-life characters"
(of a thing) seeming disproportionately important.
"your problems seem larger than life at that time of night"

His moral compass is very disproportionately important. It is the reason he is the only successful super soldier.

# 402 title: Man and Wolf (part 1 of 6), page 4 top panel Cap is having a conversation with D-Man while bench pressing 1,100 lbs

World Record (e.g. peak human) is 885 lbs. 2 oz.

Cap runs between 60 and 80 mph. 120mph by MCU

World Record 27.8 mph

The world record are freak human stats.
Peak human would be what all humans can achieve with work.
He is said not to have superhuman xyz but that is because in Marvel there are superhumans and the lowest one with strength as their power is far above cap.

No you said being. Better than everyone else makes them a Mary Sue or Marty Stu. Well Cap IS better than every other human and he isn't a Marty Stu. All comic book heroes are in someway, often multiple ways, better than everyone else, that doesn't make them Mary Sue or Marty Stu.

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:01 pm**

Sambot wrote:I'd say that covers Palladium Fantasy but then it lists Priest of Darkness, Witch and Thief as OCCs. The Thief I can see. Robin Hood. The others? Other books also have evil OCCs and RCCs. Although I can see Captain Blood style Pirates. However, the OCC section comes after Alignments which contains three evil alignments. So I don't think everyone is a hero. Unless the party is evil and then they'd be evil heroes?

Why would you want to play an evil character? Unless you are an anti-hero on a redemption arc, kind of like Slade or Bronze Tiger in Arrow.

Sambot wrote:And then one of the OCCs listed for players is Vgabond/Peasant/Farmer. There's a Merchant OCC. Fisherman is in Bizantium. Blacksmith, Lumberjack, Fletcher, and others are in Northern Hinterlands. There's lots of OCCs for typical people. Maybe so the Average Joe can rise up and become stuff of legend?

I honestly have no real idea why they would even bother with these. Look at Pathfinder, it has a Profession skill, which allows you to pick other minor professions you are good at, whether baker, or blacksmith etc. They're kind of pointless really. Unless it is Palladium attempting to do a pad the page count type thing - which I can totally see.

Sambot wrote:Yes, but you can also create Villians like Morgana, Mordred, Ares, Loki, Hele and countless others. And again, evil alignments. So Heroes Unlimited isn't all Heroes.

Sambot wrote:And you missed my point. Any type of character can be played. Heroes, average people, villains. IF these games were Hero only, we wouldn't have a choice in picking evil alignments, OCCs, or RCCs. They'd be stamped NPC! Non Player Character Only.

Kinda is as I am sure it reads Heroes Unlimited, not Villains Unlimited!
And Fantasy expressly states heroes.
So you could absolutely play an anti-hero trying for redemption.

Sambot wrote:Which makes them different characters. A Coalition States Grunt is different from a Grunt from the Republic of Cordoba even though they start off with the same OCC.

Well no.
They're both grunts, it is just dependant upon the organisation that they belong to.

Sambot wrote:Every RPG I've played or even looked at has levels. It's how you know your character improves. XP tells you how close or far your character is from improving. You get Y number of XP and you go up a level. Going up a level means your skills improve and you may get you new skills or powers. The one effects the other.

FFS read English mate. Levelling up rpg's grant new powers, those without levels grant XP's allowing improvement in what you already have.

Sambot wrote:The Dragons and Gods cover? It's okay. I can't say I care for the one you linked too. Having such art, good or bad, for every picture would also substantially increase the cost of the book. Not something I'd want. Frankly, I'd rather pay a low price for bad art than a high price.

This is why you can get layered pdf's that allow you to leave out the art when you print. Or have printer friendly pdf's so this is not an issue.

Sambot wrote:Color art also means you can't color it and make it your own.

How old are you?!?!?

Sambot wrote:I'm presuming Savage Worlds is in color. According to their website a 208 page book is $40. Rifts UE is 376 pages and $42. I think I'll stick with Palladium.

The system is slicker, it works, allows multiple genres really easily that will meld together without issue for the GM. Easy-peasy.

And seriously do not even bother to claim you can do this with Palladium, as you cannot. Rules are not in one book, and are spread all over in various different setting books. Powers are the same, hence conversion books where everything has to be Rifts compatible. Heroes Unlimited with unbalanced powers, same for other powers; mages being second fiddle to everyone else despite high magic settings. It is just a mess!

Sambot wrote:What's the difference? Palladium lists each variation separately. Save Worlds lists a generic abilities with lots of variations. You still have a lot of choices for what amounts to the same ability. In fact, SW actually adds a step. You can't just pick Fireball. You have to pick Blast and then the Fireball trapping. How is that better?

Because they all have the same damage unless you get a raise or add a step.
So Blast: Fire & Blast: Lightning would all do the same damage. No variance. Plus there are rules for No Power Points allowing you to remove them should you choose.

Sambot wrote:I'm still not seeing how that helps. I do think there should be more skills, but I don't think characters should have every skill in a category. Sure there can be a lot of overlap in skills. Your car mechanic could work on an airplane or boat engine but that doesn't mean he could get it to fly or float. It just means that after some work he could get the engine started. It sure doesn't mean he can be working on a Jet Fighter's weapon systems. Your General Practitioner Doctor isn't going to have every specialty found in a big major hospital. They're not going to be Optometrists, Dentists, and Veterinarians at the same time. When every character can do everything what's the point of OCCs and MOSs, or Elective Skill Bonuses? Everyone can do everything.

Right so, yes a GP can do most things found in a hospital - that is the point, it is why they're called a General Practitioner! What they do not have, is a Specialisation or Expertise in one particular field. And neither should they have any skill as a dentist or optometrist as they are clearly require expertise in one field.

And as you have already agreed to, a car mechanic could repair an aircraft engine.

You're not helping your position here.

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:06 pm**

Rogerd wrote:Why would you want to play an evil character? Unless you are an anti-hero on a redemption arc, kind of like Slade or Bronze Tiger in Arrow.

'Cause it can be fun? Don't even have to be an anti-hero.
"Ma'am, fair is fair...I saved you from being mugged. You don't think that is worth you paying me $20 of the $200 you just pulled from the ATM?"
When playing another Fantasy RPG, never had an elven or hybrid elven thief 90' in front of the group pocket a gee-gaw or coinage before the rest of the party knew it was there?

Rogerd wrote:I honestly have no real idea why they would even bother with these. Look at Pathfinder, it has a Profession skill, which allows you to pick other minor professions you are good at, whether baker, or blacksmith etc. They're kind of pointless really. Unless it is Palladium attempting to do a pad the page count type thing - which I can totally see.

Well, I wouldn't put it past them either, HOWEVER; big difference. With a Profession skill, that merely becomes a background thing that may or may not ever be used. Take one of the Optional OCCs, and you actually are the class. Why would one of these poor souls ever find themselves taking up with adventurers? Lots of reasons. Why do you think most bandits in the REAL ancient world were peasants, townsfolk, and the odd soldier? Circumstances...nasty lord forces a peasant off his land...townsfolk's home is torched...a soldier is whipped for something they didn't do and left to die just because an officer needed a scapegoat for their own acts...a sailor's ship sinks, and no one is willing to let the crew their ship because they are considered "cursed."
A perfect example of this is Elizabeth Moon's Gird. A farmer forced to lead a rebellion.

Rogerd wrote:Kinda is as I am sure it reads Heroes Unlimited, not Villains Unlimited!
And Fantasy expressly states heroes.

https://palladium-store.com/1001/product/501-Villains-Unlimited.html :angel:

Palladium Fantasy Role Playing System
>Trying to find the word 'Hero'...<

Despite what it may say in the text of the book, playing PFRPG does not require you to be one of the "Good Guys."
Besides, a Scrupulous or Principled person in a Miscreant society can still very much be a villain.

Rogerd wrote:
Sambot wrote:Which makes them different characters. A Coalition States Grunt is different from a Grunt from the Republic of Cordoba even though they start off with the same OCC.

Well no.
They're both grunts, it is just dependant upon the organisation that they belong to.

Well, yes, actually. Other than the part about breaking down of the person to rebuild them, no two Country's grunts are identically trained. The broad strokes are there, but that is it.

Put it this way...going back to WWII, at the start of the war, 100 German soldiers were as effective as 120+ US soldiers. At the end of the war, despite many of the soldiers being young teens, the Germans were still 100:108 vs the US. Part of that was the superior equipment they had, part was training, and part, admittedly was fanaticism. (Only the Japanese soldiers were more fanatic.)

Rogerd wrote:
Sambot wrote:Every RPG I've played or even looked at has levels. It's how you know your character improves. XP tells you how close or far your character is from improving. You get Y number of XP and you go up a level. Going up a level means your skills improve and you may get you new skills or powers. The one effects the other.

FFS read English mate. Levelling up rpg's grant new powers, those without levels grant XP's allowing improvement in what you already have.

Sam - Levels are not universal in RPGs.
Without going far afield into esoteric RPGs... SJG's GURPS. Not a single Character Level anywhere in the game. Skills, attributes, advantages, and races are purchased from a pool of 100 Character points at the start of the game, and improved by spending CPs earned in game play.
Rog - Can't really depute that... Even AD&D when it was released gave new powers when (certain) characters reached certain levels...and I do not include learning new spell levels, as that can be legitimately considered advancing existing knowledge.

Rogerd wrote:This is why you can get layered pdf's that allow you to leave out the art when you print. Or have printer friendly pdf's so this is not an issue.

So, you are talking about home brew PDFs that are not licensed by Palladium Books? Admittedly I have not purchased a lot, but all the ones I have purchased from Drive-Thru had all the art.

Rogerd wrote:
Sambot wrote:Color art also means you can't color it and make it your own.

How old are you?!?!?

His age is irrelevant. He would not be the first person I have seen or heard of whom has done it...and none of the ones I am thinking of were under the age of 17. (Is this also not why 50 year olds buy unpainted figs and paint them themselves? ... despite the number of pre-painted and professionals whom paint for a price.)

Rogerd wrote:The system is slicker, it works, allows multiple genres really easily that will meld together without issue for the GM. Easy-peasy.

GURPS.

Rogerd wrote:And seriously do not even bother to claim you can do this with Palladium, as you cannot. Yes you can. Never said it was simple, though... Rules are not in one book, and are spread all over in various different setting books. Powers are the same, hence conversion books where everything has to be Rifts compatible. Well, only because it was the only one that had M.D.C. Heroes Unlimited with unbalanced powers <COUGH>South America<COUGH>., same for other powers; mages being second fiddle to everyone else despite high magic settings.Not only mages. (Sigh)...an ancient dragon with a breath weapon that does less damage than an infantry weapon...and is limited to 30 metres. It is just a mess!Yes, yes it is.

Sambot wrote:I'm still not seeing how that helps. I do think there should be more skills, but I don't think characters should have every skill in a category. Sure there can be a lot of overlap in skills. Your car mechanic could work on an airplane or boat engine but that doesn't mean he could get it to fly or float. It just means that after some work he could get the engine started. It sure doesn't mean he can be working on a Jet Fighter's weapon systems. Your General Practitioner Doctor isn't going to have every specialty found in a big major hospital. They're not going to be Optometrists, Dentists, and Veterinarians at the same time. When every character can do everything what's the point of OCCs and MOSs, or Elective Skill Bonuses? Everyone can do everything.

Ya never know... an MD may have worked fitting glasses, and they *do* perform eye tests. But you are likely correct that the average GP is not cross-trained as an ophthalmologist, given the 5 year residency for that specialty!

Rogerd wrote:Right so, yes a GP can do most things found in a hospital - that is the point, it is why they're called a General Practitioner! What they do not have, is a Specialisation or Expertise in one particular field. And neither should they have any skill as a dentist or optometrist as they are clearly require expertise in one field.

Not so much. Just because they know a thing exists, does NOT mean they can do it. I've heard of on MD in Cali that was sued by a patient's family because of the harm done when he pushed his way into the scene where Paramedics were working on a victim, and he insisted he was better than the paramedic at inserting an intubation device, and ended-up failing to insert it into the victim's airway...because it was different from what he used in the hospital and refused to listen to anything the "peon" driving the ambulance was trying to tell him.

The ONLY way I would trust a GP to perform surgery on me (other than tonsils or removal of a smallish skin defect) is if the alternative was death in short order.

Rogerd wrote:And as you have already agreed to, a car mechanic could repair an aircraft engine.

Not so much...unless he works for Jay Leno! :lol:

Besides, if you want to see how far this goes, talk to a mechanic in the Motor Pool. ICE mechs do not work on diesels (and vice versa), because they are not trained to do so. Well, in *some* armies anyway.

Posted: **Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:13 pm**

Borast wrote:Cause it can be fun? Don't even have to be an anti-hero.
"Ma'am, fair is fair...I saved you from being mugged. You don't think that is worth you paying me $20 of the $200 you just pulled from
the ATM?"

When playing another Fantasy RPG, never had an elven or hybrid elven thief 90' in front of the group pocket a gee-gaw or coinage before the rest of the party knew it was there?

Borast wrote:https://palladium-store.com/1001/produc ... mited.html

Palladium Fantasy Role Playing System
>Trying to find the word 'Hero'...<

Despite what it may say in the text of the book, playing PFRPG does not require you to be one of the "Good Guys."
Besides, a Scrupulous or Principled person in a Miscreant society can still very much be a villain.

The point is that it is the default state of both Fantasy and Heroes that you are a hero. So by posting Villains Unlimited (a different game) you have agreed with me. So thank you for that.

Borast wrote:Well, yes, actually. Other than the part about breaking down of the person to rebuild them, no two Country's grunts are identically trained. The broad strokes are there, but that is it.

Put it this way...going back to WWII, at the start of the war, 100 German soldiers were as effective as 120+ US soldiers. At the end of the war, despite many of the soldiers being young teens, the Germans were still 100:108 vs the US. Part of that was the superior equipment they had, part was training, and part, admittedly was fanaticism. (Only the Japanese soldiers were more fanatic.)

You have literally agreed with me again - as what I said is that a Grunt training is the same with organisational variances. It does not require a whole new OOC - just a list of extra skills and stuff that to allow the user to bespoke them.

Borast wrote:Sam - Levels are not universal in RPGs.
Without going far afield into esoteric RPGs... SJG's GURPS. Not a single Character Level anywhere in the game. Skills, attributes, advantages, and races are purchased from a pool of 100 Character points at the start of the game, and improved by spending CPs earned in game play.
Rog - Can't really depute that... Even AD&D when it was released gave new powers when (certain) characters reached certain levels...

This is literally the opposite of what he said.

Sambot wrote:Every RPG I've played or even looked at has levels.

He said all rpg's use levels - which is rubbish.

Borast wrote:and I do not include learning new spell levels, as that can be legitimately considered advancing existing knowledge.

That all depends on how it happens. If they turn a corner of a building and suddenly know new spells then this is the same as levelling up. If learning new powers or skills happens as the result of downtime, then that is totally different. However, in old dnD, and PF this was not the case.

Borast wrote:o, you are talking about home brew PDFs that are not licensed by Palladium Books? Admittedly I have not purchased a lot, but all the ones I have purchased from Drive-Thru had all the art.

A lot of rpg's nowadays offer layering, to allow easier printing, or printer friendly so that ink is saved. This means that a lot of the art if removed when you print, so you just have the rules. They're designed to make buying PoD books cheaper for the consumer. Now, not all do this, but quite a few do.

Borast wrote:His age is irrelevant. He would not be the first person I have seen or heard of whom has done it...and none of the ones I am thinking of were under the age of 17. (Is this also not why 50 year olds buy unpainted figs and paint them themselves? ... despite the number of pre-painted and professionals whom paint for a price.)

Not really.
Colouring a picture is something kids do - painting miniatures however is totally different requiring patience, painting and knowledge in how the art is done. In the same way drawing good art, is exactly that - Art. Mixing the paints to get the desired shades, for the right effect - Art.

Colouring is kiddie stuff.
Let's not pretend othrwise!

Borast wrote:Gurps

Gurps is like Champions, while beloved, and absolutely great games can be quite math heavy, and high on the crunch scale of gaming. Some like that, some do not. Whereas Mutants and Masterminds (a d20 game) is crunch lite as a whole. Now Pathfinder is exceedingly crunch heavy, there is literally a rule to cover nearly every eventuality.

Same can be true with other versions of Exalted. It is why even Ex 3 has sort of flopped, and they are doing a KS of Exalted Essence to fix the problems in Ex3.

Savage Worlds is crunch lite, as a whole too.
But then you have crunch nil games, or nigh on in things like Powered by the Apocalypse, or Lords of Gosaamer, Fate.

All are great games, and it depends on personal preference.

Borast wrote:Not so much. Just because they know a thing exists, does NOT mean they can do it. I've heard of on MD in Cali that was sued by a patient's family because of the harm done when he pushed his way into the scene where Paramedics were working on a victim, and he insisted he was better than the paramedic at inserting an intubation device, and ended-up failing to insert it into the victim's airway...because it was different from what he used in the hospital and refused to listen to anything the "peon" driving the ambulance was trying to tell him.

The ONLY way I would trust a GP to perform surgery on me (other than tonsils or removal of a smallish skin defect) is if the alternative was death in short order.

Borast wrote:Not so much...unless he works for Jay Leno!
Besides, if you want to see how far this goes, talk to a mechanic in the Motor Pool. ICE mechs do not work on diesels (and vice versa), because they are not trained to do so. Well, in *some* armies anyway.

The GP could do it, and had basic knowledge of it. But they're training was outdated, and not a speciality skill which is what that kind of thing would require - depending upon the game in question. Now the thing is, what are you after in your games - cinematic or realism. They're not the same.

If you want realism - skip Palladium and go play Mythras! Expect to lose limbs in combat, and bleed out without magic. You want cinematic action use Palladium or, example: Savage Worlds, among the myriad of games that can mimic this.

Posted: **Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:29 pm**

Rogerd wrote:The point is that it is the default state of both Fantasy and Heroes that you are a hero. So by posting Villains Unlimited (a different game) you have agreed with me. So thank you for that.

Actually...the default of PF is playing in a Fantasy setting...however the GM wants to run it.
Heck...one DM played us through a 3 month EVIL campaign.
As for VU...it is a supplement for HU.

Rogerd wrote:
Borast wrote:Well, yes, actually. Other than the part about breaking down of the person to rebuild them, no two Country's grunts are identically trained. The broad strokes are there, but that is it.

You have literally agreed with me again - as what I said is that a Grunt training is the same with organisational variances. It does not require a whole new OOC - just a list of extra skills and stuff that to allow the user to bespoke them.

Bespoke them? Fancy language for roll play them?
Anyway... I agreed in part. After all, a grunt is a foot soldier trained with weapons to kill other people. What is hung on that framework varies GREATLY. Saying a Combat OCC is a Combat OCC is a Combat OCC, you may as well say a grunt is also a trained tanker, because (s)he can drive a halftrack. To use the US Military as an example... An army soldier is not a marine, is not an airman, is not a sailor. The same is true bouncing from Country to Country... So...since you just want the changes, you may as well write-up the new OCC, since it's going to be more or less the same amount of text.

Rogerd wrote:
Borast wrote:Sam - Levels are not universal in RPGs.

This is literally the opposite of what he said.
Sambot wrote:Every RPG I've played or even looked at has levels.

He said all rpg's use levels - which is rubbish.

? Ah...you confused me for a second. Yes, you are correct, not all RPGs use levels...hence my mention of GURPS.

Rogerd wrote:
Borast wrote:and I do not include learning new spell levels...

That all depends on how it happens. If they turn a corner of a building and suddenly know new spells then this is the same as levelling up. If learning new powers or skills happens as the result of downtime, then that is totally different. However, in old dnD, and PF this was not the case.

Except, I can remember rules for Training in AD&D all the way back in the day. It's why everyone was supposed to receive their XP at the end of the adventure. For spells, the only casters that received their new spells out of the blue were Clerics/Druids/Bards. Mages and variants had to study, buy, or steal new spells. Most DMs didn't bother, because they were too lazy to track, the group only met a couple times a year, etc...and, like everything else in the DMG, PH, etc, they were OPTIONAL if the group didn't want to use it. Besides, even 1st (?) Ed AD&D, DMs were not supposed to allow characters to earn more than 2 levels before needing to "rest." (i.e.: take a break and go back to civilisation.) So, any XP beyond was simply not gained.

Rogerd wrote:A lot of rpg's nowadays offer layering, to allow easier printing, or printer friendly so that ink is saved. This means that a lot of the art if removed when you print, so you just have the rules. They're designed to make buying PoD books cheaper for the consumer. Now, not all do this, but quite a few do.

Like I said...I only know of the one licensed source for PB PDFs, and they include the art.

Rogerd wrote:
Borast wrote:His age is irrelevant.

Not really.
Colouring a picture is something kids do - painting miniatures however is totally different requiring patience, painting and knowledge in how the art is done. In the same way drawing good art, is exactly that - Art. Mixing the paints to get the desired shades, for the right effect - Art.

Colouring is kiddie stuff.
Let's not pretend othrwise!

Oh, please lets... https://www.amazon.ca/Adult-Coloring-Bo ... ode=943596
And that does NOT include the explicit ones.
Next, you're going to tell us Paint by Numbers is for the kiddles only? https://paintwithnumbers.ca/

Incidentally, after painting somewhere between 100 and 300 miniatures for AD&D, Robotech, RIFTS, Battletech & Legions of Steel; and doing a decent job, if I say so myself... I *still* have not clue how 'the art is done'! (And trust me, patience had nothing to do with it! :wink:

)

Taking a black & white line drawing and colouring it is not (necessarily) kiddie stuff. What do you think Colourists are doing? Set painters? Heck, sign painters! :lol:

(Besides, even professional "artists" sometimes use pencils to draw a scene before they fill-in the colours. I know of some artists whom are paid quite well to "colour.") Oh - something that just came to mind... Would you call mandellas "kiddie stuff"? I won't say all mandella painters don't sketch it in chalk first, and then "colour" it, but alot do.

>discussion about something called "lite" removed.<

>discussion about realism vs cinematic removed.<

Realistic and Realism are not the same thing... Besides, AD&D back in the 80's had bleeding damage and perma-death even back into The Strategic Revue days of Chainmail. :mrgreen:

(But then, what Tabletop game doesn't have some level of perma-death!

)

Anyway...this is starting (to my sleep deprived mind) to start to come close to the line...so, shall we say we can agree to disagree?

Posted: **Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:12 pm**

Little random aside, how about this for Dimensional Outbreak reference/visuals?

Posted: **Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:27 pm**

I'd like to see a Variable Robots setting that does for the now defunct Robotech line what After the Bomb 2e did for TMNT when PB lost that license. Something that's Space Opera, but mostly not supernatural (and thus not Phase World or the Three Galaxies) and centers around a human society or two (say, a society that has cyberpunk-like aesthetics, and another society that feels a bit more like a traditional fantasy setting …in space!) that make extensive use of multiform robot vehicles and power armor, preferably in both civilian and military applications.

For the cyberpunk society:

Military: ground forces, air forces, wet navy, and space navy should all be featured, with the navies relying heavily on carriers and troop transports to help keep the focus on the robot vehicles and power armors. Maybe have one society build these around an elemental theme: Earth for the ground forces, Air for the air forces, Water for the sea forces, and Fire for the space forces: e.g., Gnome variable tanks, Sylph variable helicopters, Undine variable submersibles, and Salamander variable space fighters. OCCs would follow the pattern established in Robotech, with Variable Pilots and Mobile Troopers at the fore, other pilots and soldiers backing them up, and a few support types rounding it all out.

Civilian: the main draws here would be First Responder mecha (firefighting, medical, and police) and Sports mecha (mostly racing; but some pseudo-Gladiator stuff would be nice, too). In the latter case, it would be nice to have a customization system, kind of like the “super-vehicles” system from Heroes Unlimited, so that our sportsmen can get in on the fun of “tricking out their rides”. There would also bea criminal element, with bootlegged variable mecha for the police to contend with.

This being a Rifts Dimension Book, though, I could also see a place in this society for Borgs and Crazies. The Borgs would also partake in the “variable mecha” theme to the extent that their organic parts allow, while the Crazies… well, I did say cyberpunk, right? The Crazies would be netrunners, able to intuitively access and manipulate VR and AR (which I'd pattern loosely after the Astral Plane as described in the Nightbane supplement “Between the Shadows”, Augmented Reality being kind of like the Outer Layer and Virtual Reality being like Astral Realms). In short, I'd want the focus of this society's version of the Crazy to be on networking with people through the agency of machines. That said, I'd still want to limit the attention paid to the cyberpunks Borgs and Crazies, so as to keep the attention on the mecha as much as possible.

For the “neofeudal” society:

The aesthetics should be more along the lines of “robotic beasts and knights”. Where the cyberpunk society would mainly feature transforming vehicles, the robot beasts (looking as much like horses, hawks, dogs, etc. as variable mecha can reasonably look) would tend to have limited AIs and be treated more like pets and mounts than armor and vehicles. Its planets would also tend to be more rural and wilderness in nature, whereas the cyberpunk society's planets would tend to be heavily urbanized.

It also wouldn't be a bad idea to pattern the OCCs for this society loosely after the Men at Arms OCCs from Palladium Fantasy, but with mecha. And given the pseudo-fantasy nature of this society, I'd even allow for a slight exception to the “nothing supernatural” rule I suggested above: allow the Knight and Ranger analogs, for example, to have some chi-like abilities that center around bonding with their mecha (Knights) or drones (Rangers) to enhance their performance.

More generally: if there are any overtly supernatural powers in this setting, I'd feel most comfortable limiting them to Chi and Psionics, and limiting those to the pseudo-fantasy society. I'd also be inclined to link any psionics to Psynetics, meaning that any analogs to Palladium Fantasy's Practitioners of Magic, Clergy, or Psychics would in fact be different flavors of Crazies. For instance, a “warlock” would actually be a Crazy with Hydrokinetic, Pyrokinetic, or other-kinetic MOM implants; a “bard” (a nod to Minmei, Musica, and Yellow Dancer) would have implants that allow her to generate illusions and manipulate emotions through song; and a “priest” would have implants allowing him access to psionic healing powers (and would come from a pseudo-religion, like Battletech's Word of Blake).

But I'd want to keep that sort of thing to a minimum, because I'd want to keep the book's focus on the variable mecha.

Posted: **Sat Feb 19, 2022 6:34 pm**

dataweaver wrote:I'd like to see a Variable Robots setting that does for the now defunct Robotech line what After the Bomb 2e did for TMNT when PB lost that license.

Not gonna lie, that sounds like a pretty good idea considering the push for a return of the Robotech line was not so long ago. That said, i have no idea of why it fell apart in the first place and After the Bomb itself has been left mostly gathering dust since the turn of the millenium, i think.

dataweaver wrote:Something that's Space Opera, but mostly not supernatural (and thus not Phase World or the Three Galaxies) and centers around a human society or two (say, a society that has cyberpunk-like aesthetics, and another society that feels a bit more like a traditional fantasy setting …in space!) that make extensive use of multiform robot vehicles and power armor, preferably in both civilian and military applications.

If you don't mind me saying, the amount of detail you go into the description of both nations-societies-states in your post makes it look like you have a fairly defined image of the kind of setting you'd like to mess and tinker with - why not open a topic of it's own in either this or the Robotech forums to debate and throw ideas with other people to see what kind of things evolve out of it?

Posted: **Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:46 pm**

dataweaver wrote:I'd like to see a Variable Robots setting that does for the now defunct Robotech line what After the Bomb 2e did for TMNT when PB lost that license. Something that's Space Opera, but mostly not supernatural (and thus not Phase World or the Three Galaxies) and centers around a human society or two (say, a society that has cyberpunk-like aesthetics, and another society that feels a bit more like a traditional fantasy setting …in space!) that make extensive use of multiform robot vehicles and power armor, preferably in both civilian and military applications.

Variable Robots are part of the Rifts/PW setting:
-Naruni Ovid Transformable Fighter (DB3 PW SB)
-Naruni Sun Chariot Transformable "Power Armor" Bike (DB8 NW2)
-Kittani Transformable Fighter (DB2 PW)
-Kitani has 2x different transformable robots in WB2
-Triax has 1x transformable sub/bot in WB7

Posted: **Sun Feb 20, 2022 1:07 pm**

ShadowLogan wrote:
dataweaver wrote:I'd like to see a Variable Robots setting that does for the now defunct Robotech line what After the Bomb 2e did for TMNT when PB lost that license. Something that's Space Opera, but mostly not supernatural (and thus not Phase World or the Three Galaxies) and centers around a human society or two (say, a society that has cyberpunk-like aesthetics, and another society that feels a bit more like a traditional fantasy setting …in space!) that make extensive use of multiform robot vehicles and power armor, preferably in both civilian and military applications.

Variable Robots are part of the Rifts/PW setting:
-Naruni Ovid Transformable Fighter (DB3 PW SB)
-Naruni Sun Chariot Transformable "Power Armor" Bike (DB8 NW2)
-Kittani Transformable Fighter (DB2 PW)
-Kitani has 2x different transformable robots in WB2
-Triax has 1x transformable sub/bot in WB7

Yes, but my impression is that he's aiming for more of a "Robotech sucessor setting", with a twist or two in the way After the Bomb spins off from TMNT & other Strangeness. While they do exist in Rifts or 3Gs, it's far from a major thing like in the previous.

That said, such a list can be definitely useful for reference and stylistic ideas outside of Robotech proper, what is definitely desirable.

On an aside, a mix of mechs, power armor, cybernetics & psynetics in a military/espionage set up from the first "sample society" makes me think of the Metal Gear Solid series even more than Robotech. The elemental name theming also makes me think a bit of the Mithril anti-terrorist organization from Full Metal Panic, that had something similar going on. That said, i i'm not wholy in favor as is because it might led to confusion with the "space fantasy" civilization's own theming, at least as things currently stand.

Posted: **Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:06 pm**

SolCannibal wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
dataweaver wrote:I'd like to see a Variable Robots setting that does for the now defunct Robotech line what After the Bomb 2e did for TMNT when PB lost that license. Something that's Space Opera, but mostly not supernatural (and thus not Phase World or the Three Galaxies) and centers around a human society or two (say, a society that has cyberpunk-like aesthetics, and another society that feels a bit more like a traditional fantasy setting …in space!) that make extensive use of multiform robot vehicles and power armor, preferably in both civilian and military applications.

Variable Robots are part of the Rifts/PW setting:
-Naruni Ovid Transformable Fighter (DB3 PW SB)
-Naruni Sun Chariot Transformable "Power Armor" Bike (DB8 NW2)
-Kittani Transformable Fighter (DB2 PW)
-Kitani has 2x different transformable robots in WB2
-Triax has 1x transformable sub/bot in WB7

Yes, but my impression is that he's aiming for more of a "Robotech sucessor setting", with a twist or two in the way After the Bomb spins off from TMNT & other Strangeness. While they do exist in Rifts or 3Gs, it's far from a major thing like in the previous.

Exactly. That said though: given the Kittani origins in Mechanoid Space, actually turning that setting from vaporware into a real thing might be another way to go.

SolCannibal wrote:That said, such a list can be definitely useful for reference and stylistic ideas outside of Robotech proper, what is definitely desirable.

On an aside, a mix of mechs, power armor, cybernetics & psynetics in a military/espionage set up from the first "sample society" makes me think of the Metal Gear Solid series even more than Robotech. The elemental name theming also makes me think a bit of the Mithril anti-terrorist organization from Full Metal Panic, that had something similar going on. That said, i i'm not wholy in favor as is because it might led to confusion with the "space fantasy" civilization's own theming, at least as things currently stand.

Good points. That said, real-world military vehicles often have names drawn from history or mythology, along with a technical designation; so the signature fighters I mentioned might actually be more along the lines of the “VGF-1 Gnome” (or “Variable Ground Fighter, 1st generation”), the “VAF-1 Sylph” (or “Variable Air Fighter, 1st generation”), the “VNF-1 Undine” (or “Variable Naval Fighter, 1st generation”), the “VSF-1 Salamander” (or “Variable Space Fighter, 1st generation”). Drop the V for non-transformable robots and vehicles (or replace it with R for robots), and replace the F with other letters to represent other design philosophies besides frontline combat, and there's less likely to be confusion.

Posted: **Sun Feb 20, 2022 3:21 pm**

dataweaver wrote:...replace the F with other letters to represent other design philosophies besides frontline combat, and there's less likely to be confusion.

Not necessarily, after all, the F-117 is a bomber, not a fighter.

Someone decided to have it labelled with the "F" designator to make it "sexier" so that pilots would want to/feel better about fly/ing it. :lol:

Posted: **Sun Feb 20, 2022 4:15 pm**

SolCannibal wrote:Yes, but my impression is that he's aiming for more of a "Robotech sucessor setting", with a twist or two in the way After the Bomb spins off from TMNT & other Strangeness. While they do exist in Rifts or 3Gs, it's far from a major thing like in the previous.

That said, such a list can be definitely useful for reference and stylistic ideas outside of Robotech proper, what is definitely desirable.

That is my impression to on what the OP is shooting for. All I am saying is that mecha of that type already exist within the Rifts setting(s). And it isn't like Robotech doesn't have non-transformable designs (they do, and by the Palladium RPG with far more diversity be it 1E or 2E than the variables).

Posted: **Sun Feb 20, 2022 4:53 pm**

Dimension Books aren't necessarily about introducing things that don't already exist. What does Scraypers have that can't be found in Heroes Unlimited, for instance?

I'm not asking for a Variable Robots setting because Variable Robots don't exist in the Palladium Megaverse; I'm asking for a Variable Robots setting because outside of licensed properties (that Palladium no longer has the rights to), they're rare and scattered. Just looking at the ones that do exist, there are a grand total of six models spread out over three factions; and they only seem to be the mainstay for one of those factions (the Kittani), who aren't so much a faction as a component of the Splugorth.

So I'd like to see a Dimension Book that puts them center stage. I'm not even asking that it be exclusively about Variable Robots; just that the Variable Robots be the stars of the show, with single-mode Robots and Vehicles existing in support of them.

Posted: **Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:57 am**

DW - keep in mind, variable form 'bots will be exceedingly expensive (initial outlay and logistically) in any setting, and less effective than the equivalent in any form.

Literally, it will always be less than a purely one form vehicle, whether agility, speed, endurance, etc.
The only advantage would be in surprise effect of multiple attack avenues.

A JoAT will rarely win a 1:1 fight against any specialist vehicle.

That being said... a "transformer" setting (non veritech) could be interesting.

Posted: **Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:50 am**

Borast: keep in mind that the Rifts Megaverse puts the cool factor ahead of the realism of logistics. So does mecha anime, for that matter: realistically, Robot Vehicles are a dumb idea; the logistics just don't make any sense. But we skim over that part in order to get the likes of the CS, NG, and NGR militaries, because giant robots are cool. In the same way, you're technically correct about the technical and logistical difficulties of a variable mecha; but for the Dimension Book in question, I'd strongly recommend both downplaying the added expense and playing up the design effectiveness: yeah, make them a bit more expensive and somewhat less effective than a single-purpose, single-mode design; but not so much more expensive and less effective that it wouldn't make sense to build them. Say, something like 20% more expensive in order to be able to alternate between two forms; less, if there are limitations or difficulties to the transformation process.

Posted: **Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:48 pm**

True DW...I'm a 'mech boy of decades standing.
I cry when I think about what the current owners of Battletech have done to it.

As for the realism / logistics angle...we all know that a machine gun has more than the 30m range of a BT MG, and diamond-infused armour plate can't simply be scavenged from a vehicle to put on a 'mech or areospace fighter...
Besides, as a US Squid pointed out shortly after BT introduced the Gauss Rifle, it should be a one-shot-one-kill weapon, snapping even a 100 ton 'mech in half on impact.

And for the REALLY fun part...what do you think would REALLY happen if you were to drop a 110,000 pound robot onto the shoulders of another one? A LOT more than what happens in the game...you're likely to have two dead 'mechs. (Same reason when you see someone "jump" someone in film, they are hitting with the torso on torso instead of feet first.)

That all being said...one of my favourite 'mechs was always the PHX-HK1 Phoenix Hawk LAM. When FASA decided to kill them all (LAMs) when the Clans came...I was sad.

Posted: **Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:57 pm**

Not to mention little problems like needing specially reinforced concrete to walk on, and placing that much weight on the surface area of a typical mecha foot would cause it to sink into the ground in most cases; of the profile of a giant humanoid being an easy target compared to a tank; or any number of ways that mecha are inherently unrealistic.

None of which matters in the Palladium Megaverse.

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:42 am**

Borast wrote:True DW...I'm a 'mech boy of decades standing.
I cry when I think about what the current owners of Battletech have done to it.

As for the realism / logistics angle...we all know that a machine gun has more than the 30m range of a BT MG, and diamond-infused armour plate can't simply be scavenged from a vehicle to put on a 'mech or areospace fighter...
Besides, as a US Squid pointed out shortly after BT introduced the Gauss Rifle, it should be a one-shot-one-kill weapon, snapping even a 100 ton 'mech in half on impact.
And for the REALLY fun part...what do you think would REALLY happen if you were to drop a 110,000 pound robot onto the shoulders of another one? A LOT more than what happens in the game...you're likely to have two dead 'mechs. (Same reason when you see someone "jump" someone in film, they are hitting with the torso on torso instead of feet first.)

That all being said...one of my favourite 'mechs was always the PHX-HK1 Phoenix Hawk LAM. When FASA decided to kill them all (LAMs) when the Clans came...I was sad.

Going in reverse order, it's my understanding that FASA ignored LAMs because they didn't want a lawsuit. They weren't dead but they weren't spoken of. That has since changed. Catalyst brought LAMs back, they're extinct now but they did bring them back in canon briefly. They also introduced several new LAMs. They also have QuadVees and there's the AutoMechs from Nebula California. That one isn't official but sure fun.

Realism, these are games with big stompy robots a thousand years into the future. It could be possible to salvage armor then. As for range, there is an official electromagnetic interference thing for short range. If ranges were realistic, the enemy wouldn't be across the room but across the parking lot. That's not so much fun.

What have the currant owners done to Battletech? Granted, I don't care for where the story has gone but that started with FASA. Catalyst is also constrained to go with what Wizkids has done. I think they've done a good job though. I have some pet peeves but overall, I think they've done good.

As for the topic, I think a planet with converting robots would be cool.

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:21 am**

Sambot wrote:As for the topic, I think a planet with converting robots would be cool.

I agree this, as well as a lot of other ideas, sound really cool.

But, given the state of PB in general and Rifts specifically I think developing dimensions that have been named but not yet detailed would be a much better use of PBs limited time and extremely limited resources.

Posted: **Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:09 am**

Warshield73 wrote:
Sambot wrote:As for the topic, I think a planet with converting robots would be cool.

I agree this, as well as a lot of other ideas, sound really cool.

But, given the state of PB in general and Rifts specifically I think developing dimensions that have been named but not yet detailed would be a much better use of PBs limited time and extremely limited resources.

True. It'd still be nice to see more converting robots though.

Posted: **Thu Apr 21, 2022 1:30 am**

What do you want in the Next Rifts:Dimension books?

how about a Rift phase world Merc book ?

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:05 am**

Rifts Dimension book - Nurni home world could be interesting.

But really I would like to have more dimension ideas for shifters to would be nice. Not hard to brain storm ideas when you are not set on lets map out an out of the way place on rifts earth.
A dimension book where the world has tech about equal to rifts earth and humans are dimensional invaders killing off the native population.
A water world dimension book.
Elfwood -world where the dominate race is elves and they use living tech about equal to rifts earth tech.
Necroworld A world over run by undead ruled by a cruel litch from his throne of bones. His armies led by 13 great death knights.
Random dimension book X instead of settings in a bottle on rifts earth.
Iga Domio - A world with japanese theame and advanced martial arts and ninja's.

Posted: **Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:47 am**

ZINO wrote:
What do you want in the Next Rifts:Dimension books?

how about a Rift phase world Merc book ?

Or at least one focused on small groups of adventurers, rather than just mercenaries and hired guns. It could include things such as:

Various hubs around the Three Galaxies suitable for laying low, black market locations, and pirate-like coves
More diverse adventurer-focused O.C.C.s, especially in the Scholars & Adventurers category
More interesting and well thought-out alien species that aren't simply ultra-powerful versions of existing ones (catyr and star elves, I'm looking at you), and preferably ones that aren't just basically mutant animals
A selection of small group-sized ships and armaments/gadgets appealing to adventurers
Small arms and body armor appealing to your typical adventurer (rather than the military), as well as other types of gear that would be useful
A list of story seeds, adventure ideas, and plot hooks to give inspiration to GMs
A map of the Three Galaxies similar to the ones you find for Star Wars and the like

Something like that.

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2022 12:20 pm**

Sambot wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Sambot wrote:As for the topic, I think a planet with converting robots would be cool.

I agree this, as well as a lot of other ideas, sound really cool.

But, given the state of PB in general and Rifts specifically I think developing dimensions that have been named but not yet detailed would be a much better use of PBs limited time and extremely limited resources.

True. It'd still be nice to see more converting robots though.

A young machine person and experimenting In'valian met each other exploring an obscure planet and got really friendly after finding out a lost depot of ancient tech together.... :lol:

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:16 pm**

Blue_Lion wrote:Rifts Dimension book - Nurni home world could be interesting.

But really I would like to have more dimension ideas for shifters to would be nice. Not hard to brain storm ideas when you are not set on lets map out an out of the way place on rifts earth.
A dimension book where the world has tech about equal to rifts earth and humans are dimensional invaders killing off the native population.
A water world dimension book.
Elfwood -world where the dominate race is elves and they use living tech about equal to rifts earth tech.
Necroworld A world over run by undead ruled by a cruel litch from his throne of bones. His armies led by 13 great death knights.
Random dimension book X instead of settings in a bottle on rifts earth.
Iga Domio - A world with japanese theame and advanced martial arts and ninja's.

All of these would be great. Write them up and submit them to the Rifter, 1 an issue would work.

Crimson Dynamo wrote:
ZINO wrote:
What do you want in the Next Rifts:Dimension books?

how about a Rift phase world Merc book ?

Or at least one focused on small groups of adventurers, rather than just mercenaries and hired guns. It could include things such as:

Various hubs around the Three Galaxies suitable for laying low, black market locations, and pirate-like coves
More diverse adventurer-focused O.C.C.s, especially in the Scholars & Adventurers category
More interesting and well thought-out alien species that aren't simply ultra-powerful versions of existing ones (catyr and star elves, I'm looking at you), and preferably ones that aren't just basically mutant animals
A selection of small group-sized ships and armaments/gadgets appealing to adventurers
Small arms and body armor appealing to your typical adventurer (rather than the military), as well as other types of gear that would be useful
A list of story seeds, adventure ideas, and plot hooks to give inspiration to GMs
A map of the Three Galaxies similar to the ones you find for Star Wars and the like

Something like that.

Wow this is creepy, it's like you went back and read all of my posts for the last 10 or so years. Or really any Phase World fan. This book has been what people have asked for since Anvil Galaxy came out and since all of the Phase World books are done by freelancers someone here needs to write it.

SolCannibal wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Sambot wrote:As for the topic, I think a planet with converting robots would be cool.

I agree this, as well as a lot of other ideas, sound really cool.

But, given the state of PB in general and Rifts specifically I think developing dimensions that have been named but not yet detailed would be a much better use of PBs limited time and extremely limited resources.

True. It'd still be nice to see more converting robots though.

A young machine person and experimenting In'valian met each other exploring an obscure planet and got really friendly after finding out a lost depot of ancient tech together....

This is just all kinds of disturbing.

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:37 pm**

Warshield73 wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Sambot wrote:As for the topic, I think a planet with converting robots would be cool.

I agree this, as well as a lot of other ideas, sound really cool.

But, given the state of PB in general and Rifts specifically I think developing dimensions that have been named but not yet detailed would be a much better use of PBs limited time and extremely limited resources.

True. It'd still be nice to see more converting robots though.

A young machine person and experimenting In'valian met each other exploring an obscure planet and got really friendly after finding out a lost depot of ancient tech together....

This is just all kinds of disturbing.

Alternatively for a more straightforward approach, someone in the TGE tried something novel with doing "Invincible Guardsman process for Machine People" experiments and things escalated in pear-shaped ways from there...

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:53 pm**

In the Mecha setting that I'm working on in my head, the creators of the machine people don't just quietly slink away and die after the machine people reject their genocidal orders; they end up going to another dimension and trying again.

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:58 pm**

dataweaver wrote:In the Mecha setting that I'm working on in my head, the creators of the machine people don't just quietly slink away and die after the machine people reject their genocidal orders; they end up going to another dimension and trying again.

I did something similar except I sent them to the furthest reaches of the core of the Corkscrew galaxy, hidden by the supermassive black hole at its center.

For another source of this you can look at the event in the Three Galaxies that I HATE the most, the Human AI war. Even though I hate this addition to the Phase World timeline a rogue Network AI that survived the war and went to another dimension through a technological portal like we see in Lone Star or other Rifts Earth places is a good way to do this.

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:01 pm**

dataweaver wrote:In the Mecha setting that I'm working on in my head, the creators of the machine people don't just quietly slink away and die after the machine people reject their genocidal orders; they end up going to another dimension and trying again.

But trying again what? The Machinist civilization was already bordering extinction due to the Starhunters anihilation of their homeworlds even before they went on a mad bout of depression-fueled invention for the sake of revenge that burned part of the resources that group of survivors (implied to be not the whole or even majority of Machinist remnants) still possessed, according to the tale as told at least.

Who knows, some might have tried to get together and start anew with some sort of colony, or get a new surfeit in life by uploading their conscience in Machine People knock-off bodies to then join their "children's" budding society, or make a "factory-womb ship" that harvests asteroids to make new soldiers of a new metal warriors race, not for revenge, but preventing history from repeating itself by the actions of another band of war-mongering genocides.

(Though their fire just puttering out after the "failure" with their creations seems like the most probable path still)

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:30 pm**

I was figuring that the “try again” would be a sort of race of mechanical symbiotes: my initial thought was that they would be pure AIs in the same way that the Machine People are; but instead of existing in humanoid bodies, they would be more like mechanical octopi, and a bit on the small side, at that. But you generally don't see them on their own, because they have an ability to hook themselves into a mechanical device and take complete control over it, effectively making it their body. Basically, something like the Trill from Star Trek, but with Mecha instead of people.

I wouldn't quite go so far as to give them capabilities like the nano plague in Splicers (where anything metallic grows limbs); the robot vehicle or power armor would continue to function exactly as normal, save only that it would now have a mechanical brain instead of a pilot.

But I could also see that being done as the machinists themselves being Transferred Intelligences with whatever that super psionic power is that allows you to possess a machine.

The idea is to provide a flavorful way to turn existing mecha into Autobots or Decepticons.

Posted: **Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:37 am**

I thought a 'Tech' book for the 3 Galaxies would be nice.. Like the Narmumi book.. only with other races and factions.. upgraded versions of current stuff, maybe some racial/environmental variants on some vehicles.
Some new races with tech that may not be as powerful as the big players in the 3G, but have some unique ability or something that makes them interesting or a threat (lower MDC ships, but they auto-repair damage quickly, for example).
Or equipment for the average joe adventurer you won't find on Rifts Earth unique to certain dimensions. maybe even a few spells.. like when you enter a dimension where power/energy is backwards, tech doesn't work right without a spell or some converter that allows it.
Like I can see hand held magical sensors or psionic versions. Scanners for buildings, like metal detectors, that can detect if someone is possessed by a demon or something (definitely see these popping up post Outbreak).

Posted: **Thu Aug 25, 2022 3:21 am**

3G race(s) that uses technoorganics.

Posted: **Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:36 pm**

something different and original.
Remember when Wormwood was new? That was a long time ago.

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:34 am**

A book about a deminision stuck between steampunk deasil and atomic punk kinda a john carter buxk rogers commando cody mashup. Heavy on pulp ekements with art/fashions from 1860s to 1970 . Where being weird or hardboiled is the key to life.

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:41 am**

OregonMan9000 wrote:A book about a deminision stuck between steampunk deasil and atomic punk kinda a john carter buxk rogers commando cody mashup. Heavy on pulp ekements with art/fashions from 1860s to 1970 . Where being weird or hardboiled is the key to life.

Buck Rogers in particular is kind of complicated as an example of anything, since the franchise has this peculiar karma of turning into distinctively different scenarios with only a few common characters/keywords every 20-30 years. The TSR rpg version, possibly the most familiar to gaming nerds like us, did have a strong Raygun Gothic aesthetic that was inspired in the old comic strips (with the more gonzo elements glossed over), the 70's TV show had far more of Star Trek TOS meets Ark II, Logan's Run (and even a bit of 007 movies) in its look & vibe, while the remake comic in 2009-2010 seemed to mix the rocketpacks with Tron & Camelot 3000 in visuals.

(And for extra dissonance, the original novel that inspired it all is much, much closer to After the Bomb and Rifts of all things, post-apoc with no space adventuring and more advanced foreign conquerors who might be descendants of alien exiles at most)

Ok, anyways, sorry for the rant. Got in a serious Buck Rogers binge a few years back, with hilariously bizarre results as you can guess....

But back on track, if i'm reading it right, your idea is something of a Raygun Gothic meets planetary romance kind of dimension for characters to adventure and get in trouble into? Pretty doable i'd say.

Any particular concepts, images, critters or tech bits that come to mind? Up to starting that ball rolling? As an aside, i strongly suspect Heroes Unlimited might be good place to start as a base to tweak things from for that.

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2022 9:34 pm**

I was thinking in terms of buck rodger more of the comic rather than disco tv show. A gritty film noir great game hardboiled cold war cloak and dagger feel. A clash of the preww1 world mixed with elements of post ww2.

The great preww1 style empires interlocked in major/minor quables of colonial intrigues. Some cling to the old systems and victoria era styles with cold war era weapons. While others are edwardian to depression era and some are stark brutalist uniformity. There are grand gleaming artneuvo spaceliners and soviet space tugs. Floating art deco space stations and raditated ruins of once great castles.

Lost planets in forbiden zones of the galaxy the reason for being off limits long forgetten. Gangster run worlds/moons that make Hong Kong, Shanghai and Macau seem peaceful or cheap rundown. The pulp era mainly but extended.

Space whalers or something like it where you have different groups involved. One group uses almost all of the product, another just treats it like foie gras or shark fin and another is fighting to end the killing (maybe not to protect the creatures).

Posted: **Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:36 am**

OregonMan9000 wrote:I was thinking in terms of buck rodger more of the comic rather than disco tv show. A gritty film noir great game hardboiled cold war cloak and dagger feel. A clash of the preww1 world mixed with elements of post ww2.

Zeerust Space, in the Penny Pulpful verse, so to speak. :wink:

If you ever consider GMing or writing that setting, as either thread, rifter article or whatever, i think it would be really helpful to work with Heroes Unlimited (whose heroes & villains stick closer to pulp era than full on comic book supers power scale so to speak, imho) and Mystic China (that is probably the pulpiest Palladium gaming book ever - and a lot of its contents can be used for a variety of "exotic" cultures with little to no tweaking).

OregonMan9000 wrote:The great preww1 style empires interlocked in major/minor quables of colonial intrigues. Some cling to the old systems and victoria era styles with cold war era weapons. While others are edwardian to depression era and some are stark brutalist uniformity. There are grand gleaming artneuvo spaceliners and soviet space tugs. Floating art deco space stations and raditated ruins of once great castles.

Maybe a little more retraux than what you are looking for, but ever heard of Space:1889 setting? Might be worth something of a look i think.

Anyway, that and a shortlist of periods/aesthetic eras of interest could make good springboards to sketch a number of worlds/star nations from.

OregonMan9000 wrote:Lost planets in forbiden zones of the galaxy the reason for being off limits long forgetten.

That bit makes me think of ancient lost empires that leave legacies in either resources, knowledge or a number of cultural mores & legends to much later younger civilizations descended physically or spiritually from them (or so claim some of those younger civilizations, for jingoistic propaganda's sake at least).

OregonMan9000 wrote:Gangster run worlds/moons that make Hong Kong, Shanghai and Macau seem peaceful or cheap rundown. The pulp era mainly but extended.

With maybe some "drug fiend houses" run by crime families with secret society/cult elements in the vein of the Hashashin, Fu Manchu's many faced minion societies or Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom's version of thugge, for a few examples.

OregonMan9000 wrote:Space whalers or something like it where you have different groups involved. One group uses almost all of the product, another just treats it like foie gras or shark fin and another is fighting to end the killing (maybe not to protect the creatures).

Now thinking of one of those groups making ships from star leviathan carcasses, skeleton-ships so to speak, among other things. Damn, one might not even have to kill the beasties in some cases - certain species could leave empty husks or skins, much like snakes or a variety of shelled invertebrates, discarded carapaces ready made for use as hulls with just a little creative patching and kitbashing. And that if one does not feel safe trying to "tame" and domesticate some species of cosmic beast, depending on scale or other factors.

There's room for all kinds of peculiar dynamics and plots once one inserts void lifeforms in one's cosmos.

Like Ether Porifera, hollow space behemoths sometimes mistaken for escavated out asteroids or even moons, sustaining themselves from filtering the essence of the cosmos and whole byzantine complexity of physical, psychic and/or esoteric residue generated by the morass of hybrid ecosystems that take form within the labyrinthine layers of their circulatory systems through the aeons.

(Damn, looks like i accidentally cooked up a possible origin for Demon Planet-like beings, i guess)

Posted: **Sat Sep 03, 2022 5:55 am**

Ironclad and pre drednaught style ships bristling with weapons. Pt boat style scout ships. Where some feel handmade kin to deusenbergs or bugatis were to ewuipment thst pumped out ww1 style semihandcrafted to ww2 era us/ussr production on massive scale.

the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguayan_War
Would be a good ancient war that broke up the galaxy.

Posted: **Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:54 am**

OregonMan9000 wrote:Ironclad and pre drednaught style ships bristling with weapons. Pt boat style scout ships. Where some feel handmade kin to deusenbergs or bugatis were to ewuipment thst pumped out ww1 style semihandcrafted to ww2 era us/ussr production on massive scale.

Care to give a little bit more of detail, so we can see what you mean? Not sure i'm quite getting the image of whatever you have in mind with these particular references.

OregonMan9000 wrote:the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguayan_War
Would be a good ancient war that broke up the galaxy.

How so, what kind of events or imagery inspired by it are you thiking about?

Posted: **Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:53 pm**

OregonMan9000 wrote:I was thinking in terms of buck rodger more of the comic rather than disco tv show.

Y'mean the Whitman comic from '79?
I have had some of them before my mom sold over 500 comics for a total of a dollar in a garage sale.
Best turing real people into comic images I've seen in a long time. Especially since they were drawn by hand!

Posted: **Mon Sep 05, 2022 5:23 am**

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/10/23/2A6D881800000578-0-He_s_back_Legendary_science_fiction_character_Buck_Rogers_is_goi-m-108_1436566639907.jpg

Iron clads like
https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/1/monitor-ironclad-with-double-turrets-uss-onondaga-1864-war-is-hell-store.jpg
https://resize.img.allw.mn/filters:format(webp)/filters:quality(70)/content/uf/fs/bzskudoo54d853c6d2550322578114_600x338.jpg https://miro.medium.com/max/1320/1*fFxpemqj8KLNJla8MA0HLw.png8.

PreDreadnaughts
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AcFJEKHxCAg/UY2T7hlB9_I/AAAAAAAAC_k/StiIopi30f4/s1600/Monitor.jpg https://cs.finescale.com/resized-image.ashx/__size/1000x0/__key/telligent-evolution-components-attachments/13-49-00-00-01-58-04-62/01.jpg uss oregon my favorite

Posted: **Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:48 pm**

Promethean shape-shifting dreadnaughts

Posted: **Thu Sep 08, 2022 5:50 pm**

More about spying, smuggling, import/export, covert ops, adventure than large robots and mega space battles.

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