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as they stand, does anyone see much benefit to some of the advanced moves out there? Most seem to imply they get no p.p. bonus, and others require multiple rolls to be accomplished, for minimal gain.

All in all, take Taido, which specifically says no P.P. bonus. Now I know games can be totally done without any bonuses there, but the meager +1 to Spin or Turn that you get isn't really much of an advantage for a martial art form.

Look at the...what was it, drop kick? that had the roll with a punch/dodge/kick move with no bonuses at all?

It seems like such a waste of an attack, and is something I'd definitely not do against a skilled opponent, as it'd rely solely on luck.

What about Cartwheel? Backflip I get, you clear distance and dodge simultaneously. seems legit. Not as easy as a standard dodge, that's fine. Cartwheel is meant to be the offensive version of it, but I've always felt characters can charge (clear distance and attack) in the system, so I don't see much advantage for Cartwheel as it stands.

Not to mention some of those katas that take your entire round and don't allow parries or strikes...or those shouts.

Have you guys ever put those sort to good use? Let me know, because while I love N&S there's an awful lot I tend to avoid because it seems clunky or impractical.

All due respect to Erick Wujcik of course

To be perfectly honest, I still don't "get" Ninjas & Supespies. When I read it it felt needlessly complicated for very little real gain, doesn't fit neatly with other games (despite all the claims that it is perfectly compatible with HU2), and didn't strike me as especially compelling as a stand alone setting. I want to like it, but so far I don't.

I think if the martial arts are simply seen as as something to integrate into rifts, its mostly a no. MDC ranged combat is going to render your years at the dojo pretty much moot. But in every other situation, they're just as useful as other power categories. High level likwanchu gets a stun on 16? Thats pretty good. Aikido is my guilty go to for the knife hand knockout and for its usefulness against multiple attackers and 'body flip as simultaneous offense and defense, plus knockdown'... Kickboxing to put all your offense into your alpha strike... The martial art abilities that cut total sdc in half or go straight to hit points.

Heck. Even mind walk is good for scouting and infiltration or keeping up lines of communication with parties that are spread out across the globe even. Arts of invisibility equally useful for scouting and infiltration and hillarious to use. Chi characters are great healing batteries for parties that havent stacked some form of super regeneration or magic or gone to borging it up. Few are the ways people get the raw initiative bonuses of iaijutsu and zanshin.

Its like anything else in the game. Its a very specific set of tools that are doing a very specific set of things.

If your opponent DOES heal quickly... Fill his butt with some negative chi and oops. No more regeneration for you till you can get your chi back on the brighter side of life.

A lot of these martial arts are about way more than simply punching people in the face.

And dont get me started on the advantages you get when your party has been captured and all of their gear has been taken away.

yeah you get those weird moves like the knife hand KO, or the Lee Kwan Do moves where you almost hit them, and then they're stunned.

Weird stuff out there.

Father Goose wrote:To be perfectly honest, I still don't "get" Ninjas & Supespies. When I read it it felt needlessly complicated for very little real gain, doesn't fit neatly with other games (despite all the claims that it is perfectly compatible with HU2), and didn't strike me as especially compelling as a stand alone setting. I want to like it, but so far I don't.

It was released in the late 80's following a mild resurgance in martial arts and kung fu films and by Palladium's own admission was basically abandoned by the origional author in an unusable state and then Re-written from the bottom up by Eric Wujick during an 8 week bender of crunch time. It's honestly more impressive it's not even more broken and error-prone than it is.

Interesting. I did not know the back story.

Like li kwan chu stunning strikes, which are kind of like every punch you throw carrying a 25% chance of awe factoring your opponent as if he's neo on his first day. Debana o kujiki kata is another of my favorites.. its sort of the 'zaKENnayo' of the samurai spirit.

I'll be honest I havent messed with mudras at all.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Father Goose wrote:To be perfectly honest, I still don't "get" Ninjas & Supespies. When I read it it felt needlessly complicated for very little real gain, doesn't fit neatly with other games (despite all the claims that it is perfectly compatible with HU2), and didn't strike me as especially compelling as a stand alone setting. I want to like it, but so far I don't.

It was released in the late 80's following a mild resurgance in martial arts and kung fu films and by Palladium's own admission was basically abandoned by the origional author in an unusable state and then Re-written from the bottom up by Eric Wujick during an 8 week bender of crunch time. It's honestly more impressive it's not even more broken and error-prone than it is.

That makes a lot of sense. I can definitely see the inspiration, and I see a niche for that kind of game, but the presentation of it just seemed somewhat unworkable for me. Knowing it was written in 8 days of crunch makes the reasons for that much clearer. I think the genre has the potential to capture audiences, but the way it is written makes it hard to get into for me, and not especially usable as a supplement for other games. I was initially excited because HU2 makes a big deal about how N&S is 100% compatible, and N&S says the same thing about HU2, but when you start reading the mechanics, you realize that nearly everything requires heavy tweaking and GM interpretation before you can even begin thinking about the possibility of merging the games. I think you'd be better off just using Rifts China and adapting the setting to whatever you envisioned for your N&S game. As weird as Rifts China is, it's still easier to follow than N&S. Which is a shame, because I too am a fan of the genre and would like to be able to fully embrace the system.