Northern Gun Body Armour

[Razzinold]

Reaching out to everyone on the boards to help me with a bit of research.
I'm looking for N.G. brand body armour, anybody know which book(s) I can find some in ?
I recently acquired Northern Gun 1 and so far the only armour I see stated out is the exo-skeleton for the police officers.

Thanking you all in advance for any help.

[Shark_Force]

if it isn't in NG 1, then it'll be in NG 2, iirc.

[Razzinold]

Unfortunately I don’t own that one yet, I finally got NG1 because my wife got it for me in the surprise package.

[Mack]

New West, page 179 has a few.
Merc Ops, page 88 has a few as well.

[Razzinold]

Fanatasitc! Thanks Mack! I knew I’ve seen some, just couldn’t remember where.
I need to find a cost effective way to get a hold of NG2

[jaymz]

PM'd you Raz

[Razzinold]

Ok PM back

[Shorty Lickens]

Palladium needs to release another Index.
Online.
For free.

[Razzinold]

Sounds good to me. I always planned on making one for myself but you know....laziness, lol

[jaymz]

Why don't we or someone here anyway just do it here on the forums?

Like the rules compendium thread or the Rifter article thread?

Why wait for the company to do it?

[Captain_Nibbz]

you know....laziness, lol

Probably because of this reason right here.

Though being real, an index of everything would be pretty sweet. What form would such a project look like?

[dreicunan]

Why don't we or someone here anyway just do it here on the forums?

Like the rules compendium thread or the Rifter article thread?

Why wait for the company to do it?

Especially in light of a project like that probably getting done right after Mechanoids Space, World Book XX: Lazlo, Australia 2, Australia 3, and Land of the Damned 3 are published.

[jaymz]

Why don't we or someone here anyway just do it here on the forums?

Like the rules compendium thread or the Rifter article thread?

Why wait for the company to do it?

Especially in light of a project like that probably getting done right after Mechanoids Space, World Book XX: Lazlo, Australia 2, Australia 3, and Land of the Damned 3 are published.

[jaymz]

you know....laziness, lol

Probably because of this reason right here.

Though being real, an index of everything would be pretty sweet. What form would such a project look like?

Doing it would be rather easy if kept simple. Just moderately time consuming.

I'd do it like this:

OCC's

Coalition Grunt - Rifts Page XX, Rifts Ultimate Edition Page YY

Power Armours

Coalition Samas - Rifts Page XX, Rifts Ultimate Edition Page YY

Body Armours

CA-3 Dead Boy Armour - Rifts Page XX, Riftls Ultimate Edition Page YY, Coaltion War Campaign Page ZZ

So on and so forth.

[jaymz]

The only catch will be spells......THAT will be time consuming as a section.

[Prysus]

Doing it would be rather easy if kept simple. Just moderately time consuming.

Greetings and Salutations. If a method was used similar to how the Rifts Rules Comoendium, this could help save time and make it more manageable even for the lazy. For those unaware of the compendium:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=119140

This could allow multiple people to split up the work. Instead of ALL of Rifts, it becomes a book or two (a goal many can commit to). What would be required is someone to organize/head the effort, compile the index, and any edits necessary.

I'm willing to contribute as an individual. I don't care enough about Rifts to spearhead the operation though or to do it without help from others. However, I am in between major projects (I finished the big two I had been working on), and I'm willing to make this my new one if this goes forward. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Captain_Nibbz]

Doing it would be rather easy if kept simple. Just moderately time consuming.

I'm willing to contribute as an individual. I don't care enough about Rifts to spearhead the operation though or to do it without help from others. However, I am in between major projects (I finished the big two I had been working on), and I'm willing to make this my new one if this goes forward. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

I am currently in between projects as well and find myself with more spare time than I should admit to. I also have access to a lot of the books in pdf format. If someone is willing to compile and coordinate I'd be willing to tackle a book or two for the cause

[Razzinold]

Other than New West, and the W.I. guns from Mercenaries, does anybody remember SDC Pistol references ?

[Mack]

Other than New West, and the W.I. guns from Mercenaries, does anybody remember SDC Pistol references ?

At the risk of sounding obvious, the RGMG has a small selection of common SDC guns.

[Razzinold]

Other than New West, and the W.I. guns from Mercenaries, does anybody remember SDC Pistol references ?

At the risk of sounding obvious, the RGMG has a small selection of common SDC guns.

It's not obvious, I just forgot to mention that in my original post, lol
Thanks for catching that Mack


I was hoping there would be more than the few I already knew about, without having to jump systems like pulling from HU and stuff like that.

The reason I'm asking is the Police Officer O.C.C. says they start with an SDC pistol of choice, and unless I missed it, I don't see any listed in NG1 (although I suppose I could have missed it if there were any).

[jaymz]

Try Merc Ops. It's the big merc toy catalogue.

[Shark_Force]

there is also some generic information in RUE in the various modern WP skills that give stats for SDC firearms. i'm too lazy to look it up, but i think the old RMB actually had the standard selection of SDC firearms in it as well.

[Razzinold]

Yet another Northern Gun question. pg 78 of NG1. Under standard equipment they mention the Skyshadow Bush Plane. I didn't see any mention in NG 1 or 2, unless I missed it, anybody happen to know where this is listed ?

[jaymz]

Something that probably got cut.

[Razzinold]

Figures, a bush plane sounded perfect for what I needed. Anybody know anything comparable listed in any other books? I figure I will check GAW or maybe just home brew something.

[Shorty Lickens]

Check the Ninjas, Heroes, and maybe TMNT book for planes.
Use the GAW stuff in Mercenaries as a guide for converting.
Does the compendium of modern weapons have vehicles?

[jaymz]

No aircraft

[kaid]

Something that probably got cut.

If you look its basically airplanes other than sky king and some boats/ships that are named but not seen. Given how big NG2 got probably just cutting room floor for space constraints.

[HisTyness]

you know....laziness, lol

Probably because of this reason right here.

Though being real, an index of everything would be pretty sweet. What form would such a project look like?

Doing it would be rather easy if kept simple. Just moderately time consuming.

I'd do it like this:

OCC's

Coalition Grunt - Rifts Page XX, Rifts Ultimate Edition Page YY

Power Armours

Coalition Samas - Rifts Page XX, Rifts Ultimate Edition Page YY

Body Armours

CA-3 Dead Boy Armour - Rifts Page XX, Riftls Ultimate Edition Page YY, Coaltion War Campaign Page ZZ

So on and so forth.

<<Reply deleted as a double post-no delete feature>>

[HisTyness]

<<Post deleted as a double post - No delete feature, but I REALLY hate when people do that>>

[HisTyness]

So, this is a thing I've been working on that would be helpful to the OP. I love how threads meander...

It's not complete by any means. Still lots of material to go through as well as playing with the formatting and other things. But I wouldn't mind some constructive feedback. It's in Google sheets because pretty much anyone can access it and I can share it. Also, I'm not very good with databases.

Also, categorizing is kind of tricky. Where do I draw the line between R.C.C., D-Bee, and "Monster". Honestly, I kind of wing it and it may change depending on the day. As you can imagine, this is quite a few months worth of work and my headspace is anything but stable.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

[Prysus]

Also, categorizing is kind of tricky. Where do I draw the line between R.C.C., D-Bee, and "Monster". Honestly, I kind of wing it and it may change depending on the day.

Greetings and Salutations. I had a similar issue when trying to categorize my list for PF Races. This is how I ended resolving the situation ...

1: Based on the ruling in RUE, any "R.C.C." that is effectively an O.C.C. restricted to a particular class, it was redefined as a Racial O.C.C. (e.g. Dog Boys in RUE).

2: Based on the ruling in RUE, any race that ALL (every single member of that race) has the same skills and cannot select an O.C.C. is a R.C.C. (e.g. dragons and faeries).

3: I then separated playable races from non-playable races (probably similar to your Races vs. Monsters). Anything explicitly stated as playable, could be in the stat block or an entire section or book that states the races within are meant to playable or a note in the Table of Context stating that anything with an "R.C.C." label means it's playable.

4: Everything else was put into the Non-Playable/Monster category. This includes races explicitly stated to be used as NPC (unless the G.M approves).

This allowed me to make consistent rulings (regardless 0f my personal feelings). Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[ShadowLogan]

Other than New West, and the W.I. guns from Mercenaries, does anybody remember SDC Pistol references ?

as Jaymz mentioned: MercOps.

In addition you can find stuff in:
Mutants in Orbit (pg88-9, dart and flechette guns)
South Amercia #1 has Shotgun (Equalizer, pg164. I know not a pistol, but police use shotguns and this one is setup to use SDC and MDC rounds)

Otherwise I don't think SDC weapons get much love. There are a few TW options (SA1's Manoan pistols) and Rifles that I've seen, but you are looking for pistols. What's surprising is that energy weapons in general don't have SDC settings, there are only like a handful.

[kaid]

Reaching out to everyone on the boards to help me with a bit of research.
I'm looking for N.G. brand body armour, anybody know which book(s) I can find some in ?
I recently acquired Northern Gun 1 and so far the only armour I see stated out is the exo-skeleton for the police officers.

Thanking you all in advance for any help.

NG2 has all the power and body armor of environmental and non environmental types.

[Shark_Force]

What's surprising is that energy weapons in general don't have SDC settings, there are only like a handful.

yeah, it would really make a lot more sense if more (or even most) weapons had it. in addition to making the weapons much more versatile (useful for hunting and in places where massive collateral damage is an issue), it would be much more useful for training purposes. i don't know how everyone is picking up WP energy rifle and energy pistol when you'd probably need dozens of e-clip recharges per hour of training, and each recharge costs a couple grand. you'd think at least one of the weapon manufacturers in various parts of the world would realize that creating a rifle with a vastly more efficient SDC setting gives them a colossal advantage in that respect (if you want to train your militia, you buy from the brand that won't cost you ten times as much as the laser rifles just to be able to train with them), and then everyone else would be forced to either follow suit or go out of business.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

What's surprising is that energy weapons in general don't have SDC settings, there are only like a handful.

yeah, it would really make a lot more sense if more (or even most) weapons had it. in addition to making the weapons much more versatile (useful for hunting and in places where massive collateral damage is an issue), it would be much more useful for training purposes. i don't know how everyone is picking up WP energy rifle and energy pistol when you'd probably need dozens of e-clip recharges per hour of training, and each recharge costs a couple grand.

For a lot of energy weapons, there's still a kick. You couldn't step it down to SDC damage levels and actually practice with it. That being said, for those weapons you can - lasers - there are almost assuredly "trainer" weapons for Basic Training. Where it isn't even shooting SDC level blasts.

As for hunting... even if you get 10x the shots out of an SDC setting (and i dont think you do on the ones that have SDC settings - most seem about 6:1) you're still looking at a VASTLY more expensive weapon (with shorter range) than simply getting a good SDC hunting rifle, where a box of 100 (or more) bullets might cost you a few hundred credits at most, rather than a few grand to recharge that Long E-clip that still "only" gets 180 shots.

The -actual- versatility of an SDC setting is pretty low.

And for those few people who actually need a weapon with all settings... there ARE weapons out there that have it. The JA-11 has a SDC rifle barrel; The CS has the C-12 and CP-40, the Black Market sells several types of guns that can fire both SDC and MDC ammunition (shotguns with explosive, plasma, and ramjet rounds, the universal assault rifle), Manistique (via Wellington) makes Ramjet and Explosive rounds and even manufactures guns specifically meant to fire heavy bursts of Ramjets that do near-railgun damage but can still use SDC rounds. NG makes shotguns, and i think may have one or two weapons with an SDC setting (NG has a LOT of guns so nothing is sticking out).

There's no reason to shoe-horn a more expensive setting into a perfectly good rifle that will rarely, if ever be used. Its a niche. Nothing more. (Rather like the revolver that shoots a .210 shotgun round, or a .45ACP, in the same revolver). In almost all cases where you might want to fall back on using an SDC weapon... you're a lot better off just carrying a purpose-built SDC side-arm of some kind. Shotguns make a great versatile SDC weapon that can also be used as a budget grenade launcher. SMGs do a good compromise on range vs damage, and if you really need to, you can get a bullpup carbine like a Steyr AUG or SA-80/L-85 that is fairly compact and packs rifle power (or even a P-90 that fires rifle rounds; several companies offer that form factor re-barreled and re-chambered to 5.56 or .223LR). All of which also offer the ability to be used in situations where your energy weapon (SDC setting or no) is useless - such as against enemies that require silver, wood or other special ammunition to harm them. Or just are immune to energy - because those SDC weapons can also inflict at least light MD with explosive or ramjet rounds in a pinch.

you'd think at least one of the weapon manufacturers in various parts of the world would realize that creating a rifle with a vastly more efficient SDC setting gives them a colossal advantage in that respect (if you want to train your militia, you buy from the brand that won't cost you ten times as much as the laser rifles just to be able to train with them), and then everyone else would be forced to either follow suit or go out of business.

Except that training isn't that expensive, necessarily. Even if you're training at full power - and didn't just buy a dozen training rifles that dont even do SDC damage - if you're a big enough town that you can provide the militia with the weapons.. you probably have a charging facility. Charging for you is free, or nearly so. Most mercs (and presumably, most PCs playing those kind of classes) probably got their training on the job with a merc company or working for NGMI or MI, or were former CS trainees, etc. Their training costs were paid by a larger organization or government.

And before we get into the "well it doesn't say anywhere that there are training versions of guns that dont actually shoot damaging energy" - why would those ever be statted. They would be meaningless from a gameplay perspective. And for some weapons (like a Plasma Ejector or Particle Beam) you're going to have to practice at full power. Those things actually DO kick.

[Shark_Force]

if you can't train with lower power settings, why would you be able to train with a weapon that doesn't even shoot anything at all?

and yes, you aren't going to buy a MDC weapon instead of a hunting weapon. but if you're a mercenary group in the middle of nowhere and you see a deer, you probably aren't hauling around an entire separate weapon just for hunting (you may have a handgun or something loaded with silver/iron/wood/etc bullets in case of enemies with special vulnerabilities, but if hunting with a handgun was a good idea i expect more people would do it). the ability to use your laser rifle for that without vapourizing the deer and several trees beyond it (which will also give away your location quite effectively) is a nice option. then there are police situations; when you're in the middle of stuff you really don't want to do 4d6 MD to if you can avoid it (like your own buildings) it is nice to have the option (again, as part of the weapon you're already carrying) to be able to use an SDC blast.

it is also nice to not have to carry around a separate training version that weighs just as much but does absolutely nothing everywhere you go so that you can actually get some practice with your weapon.

having a low-powered SDC setting available makes a lot of sense. it is an excellent feature, and it is positively baffling that it would be so rare.

[eliakon]

if you can't train with lower power settings, why would you be able to train with a weapon that doesn't even shoot anything at all?

I do not understand this?
You can train with lower power settings for something like a laser.
For a plasma weapon though you need the full power setting... because that generates the kick that you need to train around! Which is assuming you could even create an SDC plasma weapon in the first place!

and yes, you aren't going to buy a MDC weapon instead of a hunting weapon. but if you're a mercenary group in the middle of nowhere and you see a deer, you probably aren't hauling around an entire separate weapon just for hunting (you may have a handgun or something loaded with silver/iron/wood/etc bullets in case of enemies with special vulnerabilities, but if hunting with a handgun was a good idea i expect more people would do it). the ability to use your laser rifle for that without vapourizing the deer and several trees beyond it (which will also give away your location quite effectively) is a nice option. then there are police situations; when you're in the middle of stuff you really don't want to do 4d6 MD to if you can avoid it (like your own buildings) it is nice to have the option (again, as part of the weapon you're already carrying) to be able to use an SDC blast.

That right there sounds like a pretty niche market.
Mercenaries, who go out in the wilderness but have such low supplies that their pickets and line troops double as hunters, and don't carry hunting weapons...
that sounds like a pretty niche market to me.

it is also nice to not have to carry around a separate training version that weighs just as much but does absolutely nothing everywhere you go so that you can actually get some practice with your weapon.

That is probably the only realistically valid reason I have heard yet for why lasers should come with SDC settings!
But even so... in the real world militaries still manage to do just fine with training systems that are often either replacement weapons or adaptors that go onto other weapons... If they can make do with additional materials then it is pretty clear that it isn't going to be an insurmountable problem.

having a low-powered SDC setting available makes a lot of sense. it is an excellent feature, and it is positively baffling that it would be so rare.

For some weapons an SDC setting just isn't an option.
Plasma and Particle beam weapons for example don't exactly strike me as coming in "SDC versions". How you 'step down' a blast of star hot plasma or a beam of relativistic particles that (according to HU) disintegrates matter is beyond me.
In fact I am only aware of SDC Ion/electrical and Laser weapons, which suggests that these two weapons are the only ones that *could* come in SDC versions.

Now for why they don't
Stepping up and down the power may require complex variable systems. The few weapons that we see that do have SDC modes tend (as far as I am aware) to be exotic and cost significantly more than comparable weapons suggesting to me that the reason they don't do it is economics and engineering.
If it is much more difficult to make a much more delicate and finicky system that costs a lot more... then that is going to be a niche item and not a standard option on most line weapons.

[Shark_Force]

there are SDC plasma, particle beam, and ion weapons in other (less technologically advanced) palladium settings.

and i can't see why you couldn't train with an SDC version. ok, so the plasma has less heat in it. so long as it's about the same mass and being launched about as hard, it does not matter how energetic the plasma is (or even, strictly speaking, that it is plasma, i suppose).

and northern gun literally is a corporation that primarily sells to people that wander the wilderness. you think they never see an opportunity to eat fresh food instead of hardtack, granola bars, and dehydrated banana chips and would like to take advantage of it?

also, i'm pretty sure that most militaries do, in fact, train with regular weapons using live ammunition (for that matter, so do most amateurs that train with guns, and most non-military professionals that make use of guns). of course, they can afford to do this because they are not using weapons that could destroy a house in a single blast of energy for small arms (for larger weapons, they mostly find a desert somewhere that the locals don't get too upset if you blow it up; for example, the navy moved the top gun naval air station to fallon nevada largely for that reason).

about the biggest concession i'm aware of that they might make is the use of sound dampening equipment (either incorporated into the weapon, or into the building that they train in and ear protection).

[dreicunan]

Other than New West, and the W.I. guns from Mercenaries, does anybody remember SDC Pistol references ?

Triax 2 has two sdc laser weapons, the Waffentek volkspistole and the waffentek hell-fighter rifle.

[Razzinold]

Other than New West, and the W.I. guns from Mercenaries, does anybody remember SDC Pistol references ?

Triax 2 has two sdc laser weapons, the Waffentek volkspistole and the waffentek hell-fighter rifle.

Thanks I will check them out.
Also thanks to everybody else in the thread for their suggestions/info/help as well

[eliakon]

there are SDC plasma, particle beam, and ion weapons in other (less technologically advanced) palladium settings.

That doesn't prove anything.
Everything in those settings is SDC.
Now, if you can point to some SDC plasma or particle beams in an MDC setting...then you might be on to something.

and i can't see why you couldn't train with an SDC version. ok, so the plasma has less heat in it. so long as it's about the same mass and being launched about as hard, it does not matter how energetic the plasma is (or even, strictly speaking, that it is plasma, i suppose).

Why would it generate the same kick?
Assuming for a moment that such a thing even exists (which I am not convinced of). If the recoil is a factor of the energy output of the weapon, then stepping down the output by a factor of 100 seems to be like it would reduce the recoil...

and northern gun literally is a corporation that primarily sells to people that wander the wilderness. you think they never see an opportunity to eat fresh food instead of hardtack, granola bars, and dehydrated banana chips and would like to take advantage of it?

No, they primarily sell to governments and militaries.
A tiny fraction of those wander the wilderness
A tine fraction of those do so with out any food supplies, scouts, or hunters.
Aka "PC parties are not the primary sales target for NG" (or anyone else)

also, i'm pretty sure that most militaries do, in fact, train with regular weapons using live ammunition (for that matter, so do most amateurs that train with guns, and most non-military professionals that make use of guns). of course, they can afford to do this because they are not using weapons that could destroy a house in a single blast of energy for small arms (for larger weapons, they mostly find a desert somewhere that the locals don't get too upset if you blow it up; for example, the navy moved the top gun naval air station to fallon nevada largely for that reason).

about the biggest concession i'm aware of that they might make is the use of sound dampening equipment (either incorporated into the weapon, or into the building that they train in and ear protection).

[/quote]
And no most militaries do not train with live ammunition.
They train with special simunitions if they are using real weapons.
A very few special forces groups might train with live ammunition. Maybe.

And if you want to use live weapons for some bizzare reason for anything other than just target practice use MDC backstops

Oh, and if your curious...
...there is some official canon on how actual canon mercenaries train in Mercenary Adventures.
They use replica weapons that are actually basically a laser-tag set up. (page 49)
So... the canon is "no we can't get SDC mods, we use full up simulation weapons"

[HisTyness]

Also, categorizing is kind of tricky. Where do I draw the line between R.C.C., D-Bee, and "Monster". Honestly, I kind of wing it and it may change depending on the day.

Greetings and Salutations. I had a similar issue when trying to categorize my list for PF Races. This is how I ended resolving the situation ...

1: Based on the ruling in RUE, any "R.C.C." that is effectively an O.C.C. restricted to a particular class, it was redefined as a Racial O.C.C. (e.g. Dog Boys in RUE).

2: Based on the ruling in RUE, any race that ALL (every single member of that race) has the same skills and cannot select an O.C.C. is a R.C.C. (e.g. dragons and faeries).

3: I then separated playable races from non-playable races (probably similar to your Races vs. Monsters). Anything explicitly stated as playable, could be in the stat block or an entire section or book that states the races within are meant to playable or a note in the Table of Context stating that anything with an "R.C.C." label means it's playable.

4: Everything else was put into the Non-Playable/Monster category. This includes races explicitly stated to be used as NPC (unless the G.M approves).

This allowed me to make consistent rulings (regardless 0f my personal feelings). Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Thank you for the different perspective. Now to go BACK through all the books I've done so far and re-evaluate my categories.

[Shark_Force]

there are SDC plasma, particle beam, and ion weapons in other (less technologically advanced) palladium settings.

That doesn't prove anything.
Everything in those settings is SDC.
Now, if you can point to some SDC plasma or particle beams in an MDC setting...then you might be on to something.

and i can't see why you couldn't train with an SDC version. ok, so the plasma has less heat in it. so long as it's about the same mass and being launched about as hard, it does not matter how energetic the plasma is (or even, strictly speaking, that it is plasma, i suppose).

Why would it generate the same kick?
Assuming for a moment that such a thing even exists (which I am not convinced of). If the recoil is a factor of the energy output of the weapon, then stepping down the output by a factor of 100 seems to be like it would reduce the recoil...

and northern gun literally is a corporation that primarily sells to people that wander the wilderness. you think they never see an opportunity to eat fresh food instead of hardtack, granola bars, and dehydrated banana chips and would like to take advantage of it?

No, they primarily sell to governments and militaries.
A tiny fraction of those wander the wilderness
A tine fraction of those do so with out any food supplies, scouts, or hunters.
Aka "PC parties are not the primary sales target for NG" (or anyone else)

also, i'm pretty sure that most militaries do, in fact, train with regular weapons using live ammunition (for that matter, so do most amateurs that train with guns, and most non-military professionals that make use of guns). of course, they can afford to do this because they are not using weapons that could destroy a house in a single blast of energy for small arms (for larger weapons, they mostly find a desert somewhere that the locals don't get too upset if you blow it up; for example, the navy moved the top gun naval air station to fallon nevada largely for that reason).

about the biggest concession i'm aware of that they might make is the use of sound dampening equipment (either incorporated into the weapon, or into the building that they train in and ear protection).

And no most militaries do not train with live ammunition.
They train with special simunitions if they are using real weapons.
A very few special forces groups might train with live ammunition. Maybe.

And if you want to use live weapons for some bizzare reason for anything other than just target practice use MDC backstops

Oh, and if your curious...
...there is some official canon on how actual canon mercenaries train in Mercenary Adventures.
They use replica weapons that are actually basically a laser-tag set up. (page 49)
So... the canon is "no we can't get SDC mods, we use full up simulation weapons"

- everything in those settings is SDC, but that didn't stop them from making some weapons do 1d8x100 or 1d10x100 etc for weapons that would be MD in rifts. but they didn't do that for those energy weapons. the plasma weapons in those settings do not perform against SDC targets the way MD plasma weapons do; a plasma weapon in rifts will blast through half a dozen trees like it's nothing. a plasma weapon in another setting will not. unless you're going to suggest that trees are tougher in those other settings for some reason, the *rational* conclusion is that their plasma weapons are simply much weaker. also, i decided to check an earlier claim that adding the SDC setting greatly increases cost. turns out that adding the SDC setting *and* a burst setting *and* a second MD setting (with twice as much damage) *and* an energy canister brings the cost up 4k when you're going from a C-10 to a C-12. it's hard to know which of those features cost what, but it's fairly safe to say that we're not looking at anything *too* crazy in terms of cost.

- why wouldn't it generate the same kick? the kick is determined by mass. all you need is something of the same mass, with less energy contained in it.

- yes, all those huge military organizations and governments that have been around intact. all of them. except that those things weren't around. there weren't a lot of large mercenary companies because there weren't a lot of large organizations to hire them. there weren't a bunch of governments to sell to either, so that wasn't their primary business either. they've built their reputation by selling to individuals and small groups, because that is mostly what has existed for the past few hundred years to sell to. PC parties are not the primary sales target, but people *like* the PC party have been a significant market for hundreds of years.

- they may not shoot at each other with live ammunition, but that isn't exactly the only form of training. so yes, most militaries will use live ammunition for training. not in war games. but in training, yes. and MDC backstops are going to be destroyed far too quickly. remember, half a dozen guys with laser rifles can destroy a 50 foot tall MDC robot in under 15 seconds. these are not conventional weapons. they are sufficiently energetic that instead of damaging a tiny and relatively insignificant part of a tank, they will destroy the entire tank.

- make up your mind, man. if the training regarding recoil is so incredibly sensitive that plasma of a different temperature is completely different, how are they getting these weapons to perform so identically that this training would have any value whatsoever? with that said: that is stage two of the special courses that this special facility offers. and notice: in that special course, *at that point* they replace their real weapons with the fake ones. and you know what they did before that, as a major portion of the first part of training? they used real weapons. a lot of them. 11 days at the firing range (after 3 days of theory). and they don't take away their real weapons for that. that is 11 days of fairly constant weapons use. that alone gives reason to believe that even getting 6 times as many shots out of a weapon would save an incredible amount of money.

[Killer Cyborg]

having a low-powered SDC setting available makes a lot of sense. it is an excellent feature, and it is positively baffling that it would be so rare.

Agreed.

Perhaps the greatest failing of Rifts is that the writers think that diversity in weaponry means "more power."
There's a heck of a lot of fleshing out they could do with SDC gear.

[Killer Cyborg]

there are SDC plasma, particle beam, and ion weapons in other (less technologically advanced) palladium settings.

That doesn't prove anything.
Everything in those settings is SDC.
Now, if you can point to some SDC plasma or particle beams in an MDC setting...then you might be on to something.

What if we point to the Rifts Conversion Books' utter lack of any indication that SDC plasma, partical, or ion beams, become MegaDamage weapons when brought to Rifts Earth from BtS, Hu, etc.?

[ShadowLogan]

there are SDC plasma, particle beam, and ion weapons in other (less technologically advanced) palladium settings.

That doesn't prove anything.
Everything in those settings is SDC.
Now, if you can point to some SDC plasma or particle beams in an MDC setting...then you might be on to something.

We do have SDC Plasma settings on some MD Plasma devices:
-Bionics SB Hand/Forearm Attachment (pg97): Plasma Torch
-WB8 Japan IR-2020 Wrecker (pg167-8) has a Plasma Cutter, H-Brand knocks off this Robot (plasma cutter is not noted to changed)
-SB3 Mindwerks (pg 26) The Telekinetic Extension Implant for Pryokinetic Rounds releases a plasma bolt that can do MD or SDC (depending on how much ISP you spend)
-SB2 Mechanoids (pg69-72) has the Octopus Type2 with a Plasma torch that can do MD or SDC

I don't know of any Particle Beam devices in Rifts with multi-settings, but it doesn't seem out of the question with things like lasers and plasma having the option.

[jaymz]

It may be time for a separate thread guys....

[eliakon]

there are SDC plasma, particle beam, and ion weapons in other (less technologically advanced) palladium settings.

That doesn't prove anything.
Everything in those settings is SDC.
Now, if you can point to some SDC plasma or particle beams in an MDC setting...then you might be on to something.

We do have SDC Plasma settings on some MD Plasma devices:
-Bionics SB Hand/Forearm Attachment (pg97): Plasma Torch
-WB8 Japan IR-2020 Wrecker (pg167-8) has a Plasma Cutter, H-Brand knocks off this Robot (plasma cutter is not noted to changed)
-SB3 Mindwerks (pg 26) The Telekinetic Extension Implant for Pryokinetic Rounds releases a plasma bolt that can do MD or SDC (depending on how much ISP you spend)
-SB2 Mechanoids (pg69-72) has the Octopus Type2 with a Plasma torch that can do MD or SDC

I don't know of any Particle Beam devices in Rifts with multi-settings, but it doesn't seem out of the question with things like lasers and plasma having the option.

Psionics and cutting torches do not demonstrate that you can make SDC plasma weapons.
Again. Find a technological plasma weapon that does SDC. I'll wait.

And I still would like to point out that every single canon discussion of training has separate weapons
NG1 uses separate laser tag systems
Merc Ops uses separate laser tag systems
It is almost like the canon is that you use separate laser tag systems...

[ShadowLogan]

there are SDC plasma, particle beam, and ion weapons in other (less technologically advanced) palladium settings.

That doesn't prove anything.
Everything in those settings is SDC.
Now, if you can point to some SDC plasma or particle beams in an MDC setting...then you might be on to something.

We do have SDC Plasma settings on some MD Plasma devices:
-Bionics SB Hand/Forearm Attachment (pg97): Plasma Torch
-WB8 Japan IR-2020 Wrecker (pg167-8) has a Plasma Cutter, H-Brand knocks off this Robot (plasma cutter is not noted to changed)
-SB3 Mindwerks (pg 26) The Telekinetic Extension Implant for Pryokinetic Rounds releases a plasma bolt that can do MD or SDC (depending on how much ISP you spend)
-SB2 Mechanoids (pg69-72) has the Octopus Type2 with a Plasma torch that can do MD or SDC

I don't know of any Particle Beam devices in Rifts with multi-settings, but it doesn't seem out of the question with things like lasers and plasma having the option.

Psionics and cutting torches do not demonstrate that you can make SDC plasma weapons.
Again. Find a technological plasma weapon that does SDC. I'll wait.

And I still would like to point out that every single canon discussion of training has separate weapons
NG1 uses separate laser tag systems
Merc Ops uses separate laser tag systems
It is almost like the canon is that you use separate laser tag systems...

The Mechanoid system has a range of 1200ft/610m, easily putting it the ranged weapon category and comparable to some plasma ejectors. The Wrecker is 20ft, and the Bionic system is 3ft. not the best range. They all have a rate of fire that is equal to the available attack/actions.

Mindwerks is technology that is powered by ISP (at least that is how I read it since you need the appropriate -Kinesis Super Psionic Power, none of which really translate to damage/ISP-cost for the implants).