Armor of Ithan + Chainmail & other layering

[Axelmania]

I did a search and noticed a locked 2011 thread discussing this viewtopic.php?f=39&t=125100

Rifter 12 page 26 gives an official Q+A with an example where one mage is wearing a half-suit of chainmail and is able to cast Armor of Ithan overtop of it.

I do not know if that means you can cast it on top of ANY kind of armor, since a lot of armor is bulkier than chainmail and might interfere with it. I don't know if you could cast it overtop of something like Double Mail or Scale or Splint or Plate. These all have higher AR, more SDC and more weight than chainmail.

It seems reasonable to assume that if it works over a half-suit of chain that it would also work over a full suit of chain, plus all of the lighter armors (since chainmail is classified as the lightest of heavy armors on page 270 of Palladium Fantasy 2nd Edition).

Although page 192 calls it a "full suit of mystic armor" the AR of 18 is only otherwise achievable by buying Armor Rating Enhancement (page 249) for Full Plate (page 270) so although it does not specify, that leads me to picture it as invisible/weightless/noiseless Magical Full Plate.

Then it stands to reason that anything you could wear under full plate you could wear under that. It is feasible to wear chainmail under full plate (I think old knights used to do that) but it would not be feasible to wear plate under plate.

Taking magic out of the equation: do people sometimes do armor layering like this in games, like wearing chainmail under platemail? Cloth seems flexible here: you could wear tight cloth under chainmail or billowy loose cloth over a lot of things.

If this was allowed (I do not remember NPC examples) then the weight would add up for encumbrance/fatigue and penalties should stack. There should probably be some penalties created for some guy wearing 10 shirts though.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Armor of Ithan is a Magic FF that acts, in SDC settings, like it is a suit of full plate mail armor to the point it has a AR 18. In Rifts, it has an effective Nat, AR 4 like tech FF.

Half suit because of the limitations on magic being cast through metal armor. The Chainmail shirt (from the shoulders down to belt height) I made is near 25 Lb. and even that is shorter in length then real chain mail that the 'shirt' went down to about the knees.

Yes the AoI can be cast over what is being worn. That does not negate the penalties of the armor already being worn, nor add any.

Layering physical armors is not covered within the text but if I was the GM of the game I would add the penalties of the two together to start. Then maybe add something else on top.

[Axelmania]

Definitely something on top otherwise I'd just wear dozens of penalty-free stuff like Joey.

[eliakon]

It would seem that what ever AoI is it is compatible with what ever else you are wearing at the time.
This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that there are multiple examples of people wearing armor and casting AoI to defend themselves.
Basically think of it as the AoI being a suit of armor that is sized just right to fit over you as you are when you cast it. And since it is noiseless, weightless, and has no encumbrance....it will have no problem being a 'layer' in your defenses.

[Axelmania]

Which examples are you talking about? I'm trying to find the "most armored canon example" so chainmail is the heaviest armor you have to beat with a better example, no?

Given the extremes of "I cast Armor of Ithan to protect my Triax Devastator", I'm thinking we should take the approach of "it protects you naked plus anything else we're explicitly told it also protects" plus logical extrapolations (ie if chainmail then also stuff that weighs less or takes up less space than chainmail)

[drewkitty ~..~]

Which examples are you talking about? I'm trying to find the "most armored canon example" so chainmail is the heaviest armor you have to beat with a better example, no?

AoI has it's own AR independent of any physical armor (in SDC settings), and acting like Force Field in MDC settings in that All damage is taken off the AoI before any 'bleeds' to the physical armor.

Given the extremes of "I cast Armor of Ithan to protect my Triax Devastator", I'm thinking we should take the approach of "it protects you naked plus anything else we're explicitly told it also protects" plus logical extrapolations (ie if chainmail then also stuff that weighs less or takes up less space than chainmail)

All Magic armor spells covers what they are cast on. Surrounding the target of the spell. If a person is the target of the armor spell then the spell effects cover what the person is wearing. (unless the spell says otherwise.)

What it sounds like is you are trying to make things over-complicated. Remember to K.I.S.S., Keep It Simple.
So forget trying to compare the magic to any physical armors. It's Magic!!

AoI can be cast onto bare skinned chars to onto a PAs (within reason), the effect of the magic protects the target no matter what size or shape. (within the bounds of what the armor spell does)

[Axelmania]

I think it goes outside the design of the spell to be able to cast it on giant robots though. Although I guess I see nothing wrong with a dragon casting it on themselves and they can be larger than robots...

If cast on a vehicle should the vehicle be humanoid? Then again a lot of monsters who can cast it are not humanoid... a spider-skull walker could be closer to human shaped than a Splugorth.

Whether a GM lets you choose non-alive objects as the spell target instead of living beings may be an issue though.

In the case of the chainmail example, the spell was cast on the mage, not the chainmail, yet the chainmail got protected anyway.

There may be a difference between the "I'm basically invisible platemail" PF version with AR and the "I'm more like a forcefield" Rifts version.

[eliakon]

Both versions of AoI operate exactly like armor.
It is just that MDC armor has different rules in play than SDC armor.
It isn't a force field of any sort...it is still just armor. It is just that MDC armor can't be bypassed by damage based on strike rolls.

[drewkitty ~..~]

AoI works on any shape target. It just works cause it is magic.

It does not matter if the target of AoI is alive or an object. It just works cause it is magic.

The Difference between the SDC and MDC effects is all in the setting it is cast in. Using the MDC details when cast in a MDC setting, and the SDC details when cast in the SDC setting.

[eliakon]

AoI works on any shape target. It just works cause it is magic.

It does not matter if the target of AoI is alive or an object. It just works cause it is magic.

The Difference between the SDC and MDC effects is all in the setting it is cast in. Using the MDC details when cast in a MDC setting, and the SDC details when cast in the SDC setting.

Actually, the spell says it can be cast on anyone. So you can not cast it on a rock. Or a mecha. At least not according to RAW. (TW devices obviously do their own thing)
RAW it can only be cast on those targets that count as being a 'some one' and not a 'something'. That is a rather nebulous area but it is an important one. You can't just cast it on a space ship....
But if the space ship itself is a fully aware AI like the Stick In Your Eye.....then legally it is a valid target for spell casting and doesn't need a full AoI shield generator. Flip side is that it can also be targeted by individual targeting harmful spells as well. Good for goose, good for gander.

[drewkitty ~..~]

*bows*
eli pointed out what RAW says for AoI. It has to be someone (a person). The caster herself or someone the caster is touching.

This is opposed to the Energy Field spell which can also be cast around something...or even area (the air in that space if you want to get nit-picky.)

[Axelmania]

Right, so you cast it on a person, and it also to some degree protects what they're wearing (at least as much as a half suit of chainmail) according to the canon FAQ example in the Rifter. Just not sure how much more than this it would protect.

Otherwise you could just "I am wearing the Ticonderoga"

[drewkitty ~..~]

Right, so you cast it on a person, and it also to some degree protects what they're wearing (at least as much as a half suit of chainmail) according to the canon FAQ example in the Rifter. Just not sure how much more than this it would protect.

Otherwise you could just "I am wearing the Ticonderoga"

In Rifts, MD is applied to the AoI 1st then what is under it. Everything the char is wearing is under the AoI.

[Axelmania]

We aren't explicitly told this, and a line needs to be drawn somewhere. The spell is meant to cover roughly the area a suit of armor does, not do stuff like surround the jeep you're driving in a protective force field.

You can 'wear' a robot in a way, but if this spell can protect a worn robot it could also be used to protect passengers, even though the spell is designed to protect a single person.

GMs are free to take at face value that it only protects the wearer and not any of their gear unless told otherwise, so the chainmail example is such a 'told otherwise'.

[drewkitty ~..~]

We are also talking about how MDC armor works.

Even if the Armor is just plates that leave gaps enough for it to have an AR rating, any and all MD attacks will hit the MDC armor.

This is why the text of the AoI in Rifts does not have a listed AR. Cause has been omitted from MD combat.

So the "suit of armor" it is comparable to is a MDC EBA. (except without the environmental parts.) Which is why I've been saying you are over complicating things by bringing up the different types of armor which it not like. you've been trying to compare the spell's protection to something that is not comparable to it.


In the MD/MDC mechanics of the game the MD strikes that hit a char with an active AoI, the MDC of the AoI is depleted 1st.....there is no by-passing the magic no matter how good the attack roll.

This is also why AoI is treated as just a magic Force Field by most players and GMs during game play, even though the text of the spell says otherwise.

[Axelmania]

Suits of environmental body armor still have limits about what they can contain. Armor of Ithan may alter its dimensions to conform to whoever it is cast on (Gnome to Giant) but it doesn't necessarily conform to the non-living armor that target is wearing.

[flatline]

Don't know what the Canon ruling is, but we have AoI protect anything you wear including your pack, but not what you have in your hands (no parrying a MD attack with a twig that is protected but AoI, for instance).

[Axelmania]

Power armor and even some exoskeleton body armor sometimes has hand extensions. Some also have vibro-blade gauntlets attached.