Magic Armor Spells

[dragonfett]

Besides Armor of Ithan and Armor Bizarre, what other armor spells are there?

[Killer Cyborg]

Invincible Armor.

[flatline]

Cosmic Armor and the armor with the horror factor (can't remember the name) are both excellent for different reasons.

But your bread and butter protection is still going to be Armor of Ithan since it's cheap, has a relatively long duration, and, most importantly, is invisible so you can have protection without drawing attention to yourself.

[dragonfett]

Cosmic Armor and the armor with the horror factor (can't remember the name) are both excellent for different reasons.

But your bread and butter protection is still going to be Armor of Ithan since it's cheap, has a relatively long duration, and, most importantly, is invisible so you can have protection without drawing attention to yourself.

Armor Bizarre is the one with the Horror Factor. Where can Cosmic Armor be found? Invincible Armor provides 25 MDC per level (which is 2.5 times better than Armor of Ithan). The reason I ask is because I recall seeing someone talking about an armor spell that provides 75 MDC per level.

[eliakon]

Staying with in Rifts?
Armor Bizzare
Armor of Ithan
Armor of Neptune (Ocean Magic)
Armor of Svarozhich (Living Flame)
Blood Armor (Soulmancy)
Bulletproof (Combat Magic)
Coral Armor (Ocean Magic)
Cosmic Armor (Space Magic from PW)
Invincible Armor
Necro-Armor (Necromancy)
Pattern Armor (Nazcan Line Drawing)


Megaversally?
Armor of Earth (Earth Warlock, Mysteries of Magic for PF)
Armor of Stone (Earth Warlock, Mysteries of Magic for PF)
Frost Armor (Frost Magic, Rifter #70 for PF)
Lunar Armor (Star Magic Rifter #50 for PF)
Magic Armor (Aliens Unlimited for HU)
Magic Armor (Nightbane main, a variant of Armor of Ithan)

This list does not include spells that create non-armor protections such as Energy Field, or Mystic Shield. Nor spells that provide specialized protection such as Chromatic Protection. Just spells that create a suit of magical armor.

[eliakon]

Cosmic Armor and the armor with the horror factor (can't remember the name) are both excellent for different reasons.

But your bread and butter protection is still going to be Armor of Ithan since it's cheap, has a relatively long duration, and, most importantly, is invisible so you can have protection without drawing attention to yourself.

Armor Bizarre is the one with the Horror Factor. Where can Cosmic Armor be found? Invincible Armor provides 25 MDC per level (which is 2.5 times better than Armor of Ithan). The reason I ask is because I recall seeing someone talking about an armor spell that provides 75 MDC per level.

That isn't a spell. That is the Invulnerability Tattoo from Atlantis.

[dragonfett]

Cosmic Armor and the armor with the horror factor (can't remember the name) are both excellent for different reasons.

But your bread and butter protection is still going to be Armor of Ithan since it's cheap, has a relatively long duration, and, most importantly, is invisible so you can have protection without drawing attention to yourself.

Armor Bizarre is the one with the Horror Factor. Where can Cosmic Armor be found? Invincible Armor provides 25 MDC per level (which is 2.5 times better than Armor of Ithan). The reason I ask is because I recall seeing someone talking about an armor spell that provides 75 MDC per level.

That isn't a spell. That is the Invulnerability Tattoo from Atlantis.

Oh, thank you. I couldn't remember where it was from.

[Axelmania]

your bread and butter protection is still going to be Armor of Ithan since it's cheap, has a relatively long duration, and, most importantly, is invisible so you can have protection without drawing attention to yourself.

Bizarre is useful for helping friends though since you can cast it on them at range instead of requiring touching them, which could be dangerous for you if they're holding down the front lines. In terms of duration, if you allow 'illusion booster' to work since it involves illusion (unlike AoI) then a two minute (per level) suit would only be 30 PPE compared to 32 PPE for Ithan+Energize Spell.

Sheltering Force's amazing duration trumps both but a GM might argue it immobilizes you. I'd say so for walking but if you cast it on top of a truck bed I'm not sure. The benefits really add up if you're victim of a high amount of low-damage attacks. Requires protection underneath for what gets through, but most mages will wear that anyway due to surprise attacks.

[dragonfett]

Perhaps I should broaden the question for different categories, single person protection (Armor of Ithan, Magic Shield, Armor Bizarre, etc.), small group protection (Energy Field, etc.), and large group protection (wall spells, etc.), as well as the type of magic they are and where they can be found..

[eliakon]

Perhaps I should broaden the question for different categories, single person protection (Armor of Ithan, Magic Shield, Armor Bizarre, etc.), small group protection (Energy Field, etc.), and large group protection (wall spells, etc.), as well as the type of magic they are and where they can be found..

Depends on how narrowly or widely you want that defined?
There are several dozen protective spells in the various games (quick count I come up with over fifty before we get into stuff like 'resist X' and 'Impervious to Y')....A complete list of each one, broken down by category, class, functionality and where exactly to find it would be.....a bit of a project.
Is there something in particular you are looking for?

[flatline]

Cosmic Armor and the armor with the horror factor (can't remember the name) are both excellent for different reasons.

But your bread and butter protection is still going to be Armor of Ithan since it's cheap, has a relatively long duration, and, most importantly, is invisible so you can have protection without drawing attention to yourself.

Armor Bizarre is the one with the Horror Factor. Where can Cosmic Armor be found? Invincible Armor provides 25 MDC per level (which is 2.5 times better than Armor of Ithan). The reason I ask is because I recall seeing someone talking about an armor spell that provides 75 MDC per level.

Cosmic Armor is in the phase world sourcebook that defines Space Magic (Fleets of the 3 Galaxies?). It is particularly useful since it includes flight ability and life support. 50 MDC per level is also pretty good protection.

[kaid]

Also would have a couple biomancer spells that name escapes me something like fish scales or something to that effect and one other that are sort of in this same line although what they create instantly actually does not have a duration for at least one of their armors and lasts until destroyed and can be taken off and put back on. So not sure if that exactly counts as while it fills the same kind of spell need it actually is making physical armor rather than a force field.

[Axelmania]

Cosmic Armor is in the phase world sourcebook that defines Space Magic (Fleets of the 3 Galaxies?).

Page 120 of Dimension Book 13, yes. Having 10x the duration of Armor of Ithan for only 4.5x the PPE would make this an amazing deal even if it only had 5 MDC per level. Really for any kind of balance something like this ought to cost over 100 PPE. The only slight downsides are some unimportant mobility penalties and it being level 9, taking twice as long to cast which isn't good for emergencies, and I think that also makes it too high level to put inside a Talisman.

In an emergency someone could probably cast (or activate talisman of) a lower level armor spell and then begin casting Cosmic Armor during that moment of protection.

I don't know how it works if you cast another armor spell before the previous one expires though. Like if they would stack or the previous one would vanish. It would be good to get some official rules on that.

[dragonfett]

Level 9 is too high for talisman, however it could be made into a Magic Scroll.

[Axelmania]

True, I don't know how long it takes to read those but I figure it would take as least as long as it would to cast it from scratch.

Downside there is if I was a Wizard and knew you had a trove of Cosmic Armor scrolls I would want to steal them so I might learn the spell for myself.

[flatline]

True, I don't know how long it takes to read those but I figure it would take as least as long as it would to cast it from scratch.

Downside there is if I was a Wizard and knew you had a trove of Cosmic Armor scrolls I would want to steal them so I might learn the spell for myself.

How is that any different from walking around with a bunch of MD weapons and equipment? PC's are already targets due to the value of all their gear. Adding some scrolls to the mix won't really make life any more dangerous than it already is.

If you have something to trade, perhaps I'd be willing to let you have some of my scrolls, or maybe even teach you the spell directly. Risking my wrath by stealing from me seems a risky proposition compared to simply doing a business with me.

[eliakon]

The other issue is of course getting the Level 9 Cosmic Armor spell, and the Level 11 Create Scroll spell.
Which is not going to be exactly easy. Especially since RAW unless your mage is from a space faring society they pay X2 PPE to cast Cosmic Armor, and also technically it is not an Invocation but a Space Magic spell which means that it is considered a specialty magic and thus RAW is not available to just anyone to pick up at will.

[Shark_Force]

seriously, being from a space faring society reduces the cost?

i mean, i'm ok if you need to be a different kind of spellcaster to get the reduced cost, that makes sense, but just being from a world where space travel is common? that's just silly. i really hope it's more along the lines of, say, "space warlocks pay normal, most other casters pay double" or something like that (and i also hope that space warlock isn't another stupid example of "exactly like regular class X, but better for no reason at all", especially if it is a space version of the regular warlock class, which is *granted magic* and should not rely even a tiny bit on what kind of society you're from because the only real question is what society your patron is from).

[42dragon]

I have always interpreted the Space Magic to be standard invocations (so no increase to cost), however you would have to have some way of knowing about these spells before you would be able to learn them in my games.

[eliakon]

Space magic, as written is normal cost for people from a space traveling society and (sorry I should have been clear) may cost x2 for everyone else. This is found on page 112 of Fleets of the Three Galaxies.
It appears to be a cultural specialty magic somewhere between Ocean Magic and Necromancy.
The logic behind it is that like other specialty forms of magic if you do not have the background for the referents and such then you pay a premium for it.

The Space Magic section though is pretty clear that it is not just 'invocation spells' It is exclusive to the three galaxies (and possibly other space faring societies, GMs call). Combined with the potential double cost for others, and the special name it is not just 'space invocations' (Such as is found in Aliens Unlimited for example) but a sub-school of magic. Which then brings in all of the (currently unsettled) questions on exactly who can learn what. And frankly that is not something we want to touch on in this thread as it will simply derail everything in flames. But it is listed as something that not just anyone has. Or put another way.....just because your ley line walker hits level 9 doesn't mean you can pick Cosmic Armor.

[kaid]

seriously, being from a space faring society reduces the cost?

i mean, i'm ok if you need to be a different kind of spellcaster to get the reduced cost, that makes sense, but just being from a world where space travel is common? that's just silly. i really hope it's more along the lines of, say, "space warlocks pay normal, most other casters pay double" or something like that (and i also hope that space warlock isn't another stupid example of "exactly like regular class X, but better for no reason at all", especially if it is a space version of the regular warlock class, which is *granted magic* and should not rely even a tiny bit on what kind of society you're from because the only real question is what society your patron is from).

Well one thing to note with space faring culture costs are material costs would generally drop through the floor. With multiple planets to exploit rare materials get to be not that rare. Most metallic asteroids would have enormous amounts of just about any precious metals you could name. Also space travel allows for much much higher population totals overall so more people with the knowledge lessens the value of it. Also when one does not have to blaze through monster infested wildernesses it tends to cut the costs of transportation down by a large margins. So yes I would expect just about any service/item you could buy would wind up much cheaper comparatively than you would find it for on rifts earth.

[Svartalf]

Please remind me what book space magic is in... is that the one from Rifter 3&5?

[eliakon]

Please remind me what book space magic is in... is that the one from Rifter 3&5?

Fleets of the Three Galaxies, page 112. The Rifter has some unofficial space magic in it.

[flatline]

I'll go back and read the description of space magic again, but my recollection is that they're regular invocation spells that have been developed by space faring mages.

The 2x PPE cost is a strange thing. Does a Palladium Fantasy wizard pay 2x PPE when he comes to Rifts Earth and learns Sub-Particle Acceleration?

[eliakon]

I'll go back and read the description of space magic again, but my recollection is that they're regular invocation spells that have been developed by space faring mages.

The 2x PPE cost is a strange thing. Does a Palladium Fantasy wizard pay 2x PPE when he comes to Rifts Earth and learns Sub-Particle Acceleration?

Nope. But that is because that isn't a different branch of magic. RAW Space Magic is its own form of magic (Hence why it is called Space Magic)
Since Sub-Particle Acceleration is an Invocation spell he pays the normal price for it. But if he learns Cosmic Armor the GM is with in the rules to charge him x2 for casting it. Or not, it is the GMs call.
There is a lot of strangeness when you start getting sub-schools and side-branches of magic involved. Some times that strangeness manifests as "some people pay more" sometimes its "only people from this background can learn this spell" and other bizarre stuff. One would almost be tempted to think that one was dealing with say....magic or something.

[kaid]

Yup such as necromancers can learn a lot of normal invocations but have to pay more PPE and probably more money training wise to learn them. It could be magic or it could simply be the hyper specialization issue. People who are two focused on doing something one particular way often have troubles when asked to apply that knowledge in a totally different way.

The other thing with space magic is it simply is one of those things that winds up being more commonly available to students than it would on a space locked area like rifts. Not a lot of call for spells that allow you to fly through/live in/survive in a vacuum when its nearly impossible for them to even get there short of going to a different dimension.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Please remind me what book space magic is in... is that the one from Rifter 3&5?

Fleets of the Three Galaxies, page 112. The Rifter has some unofficial space magic in it.

Remember the source material in the Rifters is Officially Optional.
----------

The "Spacial Mage" is in rifter 3 (an it's magic is in R3 & R5) The Spacial Mage is like a mix of a mystic, Temporal wizard and astral lord. The class learns it spells and magic abilities intuitively like a mystic, it spells deal with manipulating the fabric of space-time like a Temp. Wiz., and like astral lord cause the char can build a domain through spending perm PPE.

Spacial Magic spells are specialty magic limited the Spacial Mage class.
--------------

The Space magic spells in the Rifter are located in R10.


-------
The Zodiac Mage/magic (R50) is official text for PFRPG 2nd ed. However these spells are also specialty magic and not available out the Zodiac mage class.

[Svartalf]

Please remind me what book space magic is in... is that the one from Rifter 3&5?

Fleets of the Three Galaxies, page 112. The Rifter has some unofficial space magic in it.

thanks a lot, I'd never have thought of looking there

[Shark_Force]

I'll go back and read the description of space magic again, but my recollection is that they're regular invocation spells that have been developed by space faring mages.

The 2x PPE cost is a strange thing. Does a Palladium Fantasy wizard pay 2x PPE when he comes to Rifts Earth and learns Sub-Particle Acceleration?

Nope. But that is because that isn't a different branch of magic. RAW Space Magic is its own form of magic (Hence why it is called Space Magic)
Since Sub-Particle Acceleration is an Invocation spell he pays the normal price for it. But if he learns Cosmic Armor the GM is with in the rules to charge him x2 for casting it. Or not, it is the GMs call.
There is a lot of strangeness when you start getting sub-schools and side-branches of magic involved. Some times that strangeness manifests as "some people pay more" sometimes its "only people from this background can learn this spell" and other bizarre stuff. One would almost be tempted to think that one was dealing with say....magic or something.

see, here's the thing... there's nothing about "living in space" or whatever that makes you know more about magic. if there's some special training involved, i can sorta believe that. if it's a totally different branch of magic, i can sorta believe that too (but it had better be like the necromancer where because they study a different branch of magic, they don't do so well when it comes to standard invocations, because if standard invocations are still standard for them, the rest of their magic should be based on the exact same principles). it's just silly. "oh, you're from a spacefaring culture? well here, PPE costs are halved for you because you've been in a spaceship before. only people who've been in a spaceship before can properly understand space magic".

that's just silly to me. it doesn't work. i'm ok if there's some sort of plausible justification for it, but "you haven't been in space for long enough" is not a plausible explanation for why space magic is easier for you to cast. now, double the credit cost to pay someone to teach it to you if you're not from a culture that uses that type of magic i could somewhat see (provided the magic knowledge in question is desirable) i'm ok with, because that makes sense.

and frankly, the "oh, it's magic, it doesn't have to make any sense" thing is a steaming pile of bull crap. people *learn* how to cast spells. they *study*. they write books to share their knowledge. they teach each other spells. you need to have decent intelligence to learn magic, broadly speaking. the creatures that are naturally gifted with magic are generally not completely irrational gibbering lunatics, but rather completely rational beings most of the time.

now, if this was call of cthulhu, sure, magic probably doesn't make sense, because the more you know about it the less likely you are to be sane, and everything that naturally understands or uses magic is so alien to us that sometimes just *seeing* them can send you straight to a mental institution. but that doesn't describe magic in rifts. everything points to it following some sort of reasonably logical system. we don't know every law, but it has an awful lot of giant flashing neon signs pointing to the idea that there are definitely laws.

so no, magic doesn't have to follow the laws of science. but it does need to feel internally consistent, and the made-up laws for it need to feel like they could be real. and "you haven't spent enough time in a spaceship to grasp the concept of a magical forcefield that lets you fly" does not fit that criteria.

[eliakon]

I'll go back and read the description of space magic again, but my recollection is that they're regular invocation spells that have been developed by space faring mages.

The 2x PPE cost is a strange thing. Does a Palladium Fantasy wizard pay 2x PPE when he comes to Rifts Earth and learns Sub-Particle Acceleration?

Nope. But that is because that isn't a different branch of magic. RAW Space Magic is its own form of magic (Hence why it is called Space Magic)
Since Sub-Particle Acceleration is an Invocation spell he pays the normal price for it. But if he learns Cosmic Armor the GM is with in the rules to charge him x2 for casting it. Or not, it is the GMs call.
There is a lot of strangeness when you start getting sub-schools and side-branches of magic involved. Some times that strangeness manifests as "some people pay more" sometimes its "only people from this background can learn this spell" and other bizarre stuff. One would almost be tempted to think that one was dealing with say....magic or something.

see, here's the thing... there's nothing about "living in space" or whatever that makes you know more about magic. if there's some special training involved, i can sorta believe that. if it's a totally different branch of magic, i can sorta believe that too (but it had better be like the necromancer where because they study a different branch of magic, they don't do so well when it comes to standard invocations, because if standard invocations are still standard for them, the rest of their magic should be based on the exact same principles). it's just silly. "oh, you're from a spacefaring culture? well here, PPE costs are halved for you because you've been in a spaceship before. only people who've been in a spaceship before can properly understand space magic".

that's just silly to me. it doesn't work. i'm ok if there's some sort of plausible justification for it, but "you haven't been in space for long enough" is not a plausible explanation for why space magic is easier for you to cast. now, double the credit cost to pay someone to teach it to you if you're not from a culture that uses that type of magic i could somewhat see (provided the magic knowledge in question is desirable) i'm ok with, because that makes sense.

and frankly, the "oh, it's magic, it doesn't have to make any sense" thing is a steaming pile of bull crap. people *learn* how to cast spells. they *study*. they write books to share their knowledge. they teach each other spells. you need to have decent intelligence to learn magic, broadly speaking. the creatures that are naturally gifted with magic are generally not completely irrational gibbering lunatics, but rather completely rational beings most of the time.

now, if this was call of cthulhu, sure, magic probably doesn't make sense, because the more you know about it the less likely you are to be sane, and everything that naturally understands or uses magic is so alien to us that sometimes just *seeing* them can send you straight to a mental institution. but that doesn't describe magic in rifts. everything points to it following some sort of reasonably logical system. we don't know every law, but it has an awful lot of giant flashing neon signs pointing to the idea that there are definitely laws.

so no, magic doesn't have to follow the laws of science. but it does need to feel internally consistent, and the made-up laws for it need to feel like they could be real. and "you haven't spent enough time in a spaceship to grasp the concept of a magical forcefield that lets you fly" does not fit that criteria.

Since we already have at least Two other magic systems that require certain social statuses (Biomancy, and Native American Spirit Magic) and considering that Ocean Magic already follows this trend (it is available to ocean mages, but technically not normal mages) as does Living Flame magic (which can be learned by Russian Ley Line walkers, but not normal ones by RAW)....
And if we go outside of the Rifts game we run into Chi Magic which can be learned to be cast....but only if you learn a different way of thnking (meditation) first. In the only guide to making magic in any system (Through the Glass Darkly) magic is described as being inherently malleable, and that it actually is controlled by the will of the caster. That what you believe is possible is part of what is possible....suggesting that you have to believe certain effects are possible (i.e. understand them enough....i.e. be from the right society). This is reinforced by the fact that in PF it is possible to get wild spells that cast random effects if you fail on certain magical tasks....again suggesting that there is a non-deterministic factor to magic.

The result is that the 'plausible justification' is don't think of it as people paying x2. Think of it as if your a space native, then your 'in synch' with the forces of space...and cast the spells for half cost.

[flatline]

GM: According to your back stories, all the magic users in the party grew up in the 3 galaxies before being rifted to Earth.
Players: err...we thought it would be fun to play characters that grew up in a more civilized environment before being thrown into the chaos of Rifts...
GM: Hmm...interesting...

[Nightmask]

I'll go back and read the description of space magic again, but my recollection is that they're regular invocation spells that have been developed by space faring mages.

The 2x PPE cost is a strange thing. Does a Palladium Fantasy wizard pay 2x PPE when he comes to Rifts Earth and learns Sub-Particle Acceleration?

Nope. But that is because that isn't a different branch of magic. RAW Space Magic is its own form of magic (Hence why it is called Space Magic)
Since Sub-Particle Acceleration is an Invocation spell he pays the normal price for it. But if he learns Cosmic Armor the GM is with in the rules to charge him x2 for casting it. Or not, it is the GMs call.
There is a lot of strangeness when you start getting sub-schools and side-branches of magic involved. Some times that strangeness manifests as "some people pay more" sometimes its "only people from this background can learn this spell" and other bizarre stuff. One would almost be tempted to think that one was dealing with say....magic or something.

see, here's the thing... there's nothing about "living in space" or whatever that makes you know more about magic. if there's some special training involved, i can sorta believe that. if it's a totally different branch of magic, i can sorta believe that too (but it had better be like the necromancer where because they study a different branch of magic, they don't do so well when it comes to standard invocations, because if standard invocations are still standard for them, the rest of their magic should be based on the exact same principles). it's just silly. "oh, you're from a spacefaring culture? well here, PPE costs are halved for you because you've been in a spaceship before. only people who've been in a spaceship before can properly understand space magic".

that's just silly to me. it doesn't work. i'm ok if there's some sort of plausible justification for it, but "you haven't been in space for long enough" is not a plausible explanation for why space magic is easier for you to cast. now, double the credit cost to pay someone to teach it to you if you're not from a culture that uses that type of magic i could somewhat see (provided the magic knowledge in question is desirable) i'm ok with, because that makes sense.

and frankly, the "oh, it's magic, it doesn't have to make any sense" thing is a steaming pile of bull crap. people *learn* how to cast spells. they *study*. they write books to share their knowledge. they teach each other spells. you need to have decent intelligence to learn magic, broadly speaking. the creatures that are naturally gifted with magic are generally not completely irrational gibbering lunatics, but rather completely rational beings most of the time.

now, if this was call of cthulhu, sure, magic probably doesn't make sense, because the more you know about it the less likely you are to be sane, and everything that naturally understands or uses magic is so alien to us that sometimes just *seeing* them can send you straight to a mental institution. but that doesn't describe magic in rifts. everything points to it following some sort of reasonably logical system. we don't know every law, but it has an awful lot of giant flashing neon signs pointing to the idea that there are definitely laws.

so no, magic doesn't have to follow the laws of science. but it does need to feel internally consistent, and the made-up laws for it need to feel like they could be real. and "you haven't spent enough time in a spaceship to grasp the concept of a magical forcefield that lets you fly" does not fit that criteria.

Since we already have at least Two other magic systems that require certain social statuses (Biomancy, and Native American Spirit Magic) and considering that Ocean Magic already follows this trend (it is available to ocean mages, but technically not normal mages) as does Living Flame magic (which can be learned by Russian Ley Line walkers, but not normal ones by RAW)....
And if we go outside of the Rifts game we run into Chi Magic which can be learned to be cast....but only if you learn a different way of thnking (meditation) first. In the only guide to making magic in any system (Through the Glass Darkly) magic is described as being inherently malleable, and that it actually is controlled by the will of the caster. That what you believe is possible is part of what is possible....suggesting that you have to believe certain effects are possible (i.e. understand them enough....i.e. be from the right society). This is reinforced by the fact that in PF it is possible to get wild spells that cast random effects if you fail on certain magical tasks....again suggesting that there is a non-deterministic factor to magic.

The result is that the 'plausible justification' is don't think of it as people paying x2. Think of it as if your a space native, then your 'in synch' with the forces of space...and cast the spells for half cost.

Minor correction, Chi Magic requires you master the basics of chi (provided you're learning to cast it straight and not looking to convert it into an Invocation) which requires way more than just learning to meditate you have to combine that with an intensive course in martial arts and Feng Shui.

As far as the rest goes, of those I recognize (like Biomancers) none of them have added PPE costs for casting spells not of their specialty, nor would the few exceptions justify Space Magic having double PPE cost if you aren't from a space-faring society. The intense focus of the Necromancer can be seen as a a reason why they have trouble with non-Necromantic spells (although the reverse makes no sense with regards to non-Necromancers learning necromantic spells) but Space magic really doesn't fit into that kind of reasoning.

[flatline]

So is the reasoning that ley line walkers, shifters, temporal practitioners, etc from space faring civilizations receive more comprehensive training in the principles of magic?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Space magic is just a "region" specific common magic that just happens to cover the mages that are also spacers. Where those that travel in space will choose to pursue these magic over those that dirt-sider mages do not. The limiting factors are the same as dirt-side mages, ether think of the idea for yourselves and research it or find a teacher that is willing to teach you the spell.

-----
Chi magic, is a school of magic that common mages can't use because the way of casting it is alien to the western style mage/invocation mage.

However, it can be converted But it is very difficult for the mage to do so. (in other words the char would need to take months or years out of game down time to convert the spells within the set limitations.)

Other ways for common magic mages to be attempt to learn to be able to cast Chi Magic is to take a year's long sabbatical from the game (in game time) to attempt to learn the basics of chi manipulation. Or change their class to the Wu Shih, taking three times as much exp. per level to progress.

Side-note: where the Chi Magic text talking about the PF & rHU are talking about HU1 & PF1 and changing their "spells per day" magic system to the "PPE" magic system.

[flatline]

Space magic is just a "region" specific common magic that just happens to cover the mages that are also spacers. Where those that travel in space will choose to pursue these magic over those that dirt-sider mages do not. The limiting factors are the same as dirt-side mages, ether think of the idea for yourselves and research it or find a teacher that is willing to teach you the spell.

Most of the space magic spells would be of little interest unless you're actually in space, but some, like Cosmic Armor, are extremely useful even if you're planet-side. I would expect those spells to eventually be commonly known to mages who aren't also spacers.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The ones useful outside of space travel, yes, they might filter into the normal common magic.

There is the however most of the space magic spells (F3G) are only immediate (very temporary) fixes for the problems they deal with. Most don't last more then a few min. or for only a few hours. Like the writers didn't take in account that most starships are days or weeks from the nearest port. There is even one spell that is so broken in the F3G SM text that it is unusable as written.

[Shark_Force]

Since we already have at least Two other magic systems that require certain social statuses (Biomancy, and Native American Spirit Magic) and considering that Ocean Magic already follows this trend (it is available to ocean mages, but technically not normal mages) as does Living Flame magic (which can be learned by Russian Ley Line walkers, but not normal ones by RAW)....
And if we go outside of the Rifts game we run into Chi Magic which can be learned to be cast....but only if you learn a different way of thnking (meditation) first. In the only guide to making magic in any system (Through the Glass Darkly) magic is described as being inherently malleable, and that it actually is controlled by the will of the caster. That what you believe is possible is part of what is possible....suggesting that you have to believe certain effects are possible (i.e. understand them enough....i.e. be from the right society). This is reinforced by the fact that in PF it is possible to get wild spells that cast random effects if you fail on certain magical tasks....again suggesting that there is a non-deterministic factor to magic.

The result is that the 'plausible justification' is don't think of it as people paying x2. Think of it as if your a space native, then your 'in synch' with the forces of space...and cast the spells for half cost.

biomancy struggles with regular invocation magic, only knowing a handful of specific spells. native american magic likewise struggles as i recall. as i further recall, both are also examples of granted rather than learned magic.

as to the others, well, using a bad idea more than once doesn't make it not bad.

[eliakon]

Since we already have at least Two other magic systems that require certain social statuses (Biomancy, and Native American Spirit Magic) and considering that Ocean Magic already follows this trend (it is available to ocean mages, but technically not normal mages) as does Living Flame magic (which can be learned by Russian Ley Line walkers, but not normal ones by RAW)....
And if we go outside of the Rifts game we run into Chi Magic which can be learned to be cast....but only if you learn a different way of thnking (meditation) first. In the only guide to making magic in any system (Through the Glass Darkly) magic is described as being inherently malleable, and that it actually is controlled by the will of the caster. That what you believe is possible is part of what is possible....suggesting that you have to believe certain effects are possible (i.e. understand them enough....i.e. be from the right society). This is reinforced by the fact that in PF it is possible to get wild spells that cast random effects if you fail on certain magical tasks....again suggesting that there is a non-deterministic factor to magic.

The result is that the 'plausible justification' is don't think of it as people paying x2. Think of it as if your a space native, then your 'in synch' with the forces of space...and cast the spells for half cost.

biomancy struggles with regular invocation magic, only knowing a handful of specific spells. native american magic likewise struggles as i recall. as i further recall, both are also examples of granted rather than learned magic.

as to the others, well, using a bad idea more than once doesn't make it not bad.

Biomancy is not granted, it is explicitly learned. And considering the wide range of abilities that it offers I have trouble calling it 'limited' in any way shape or form (As a Lemurian how 'limited' it is). As for the number of spells.....there are roughly the same number of printed canon Biomancy spells right now as there were total spells in the PF 1st edition book....most people did not argue that magic was limited and thus pointless.....

Spirit magic is questionable as to if it is granted or not, but the fact still stands that unless you are following the spiritual rules and don't use technology you cant cast it...

If we like or do not like how the canon magic system works does not really affect anything unless we decide to use Rule Zero. The Powers That Be have decided that in their magic system magic works a certain way....and then have gone on to have pretty much every example of magic in every one of their games from that point on follow those same rules and limitations.
Personally I don't have the slightest problem with the idea that magic is not just physics by a different name. Especially since this helps explain why every spell in existence is not known since if it was logical, organized and followed strict rules it should be possible to simply test the combinations.....which with billions of mages over the tens of thousands of years should have happened.....
....but strangely enough we don't have every spell in existence known and available. In fact it seems that we only know of a tiny portion of the possible schools of magic (The Time of a Thousand Magics on Palladium supposedly lost more magic than is currently know to exist...in the rest of the known setting!). This to me, is best explained if magic is not an exact science but has an element of mysticism and will to it.

[Shark_Force]

biomancers (or at least, the original biomancer OCC in SA 1) was limited to learning spells at level up as i recall. that isn't a learned form of magic, unless lemuria changed it. and compared to the number of standard invocation spells, i'd bet biomancy is pretty danged limited. not useless, no, but limited.

and if magic being a science meant that we would know all the magic out there, then why don't we know all the science there is to know? so far as i'm aware, there are a heck of a lot more people involved in scientific research than there are studying magic, and they tend to be far more likely to share information, test each others results, etc, than magicians in general are. and yet, we don't know remotely everything scientific there is to know, and the people in the settings don't come close to it either. even the people noted as having super high technology are generally given different technologies, and most have no ability to replicate each others technological feats.

so no, magic being a science doesn't mean everyone knows everything. because if it did, then that would mean that scientists have discovered everything there is to know long before that, and that is patently not true.

(as to performing experiments and discovering magical knowledge, last i heard the CS actually had a group of scientists doing pretty much exactly that, though they don't think it is magic at all).

[Axelmania]

How is that any different from walking around with a bunch of MD weapons and equipment? PC's are already targets due to the value of all their gear. Adding some scrolls to the mix won't really make life any more dangerous than it already is.

It's easier to steal paper out of your pouch than armor off your back. Plus scrolls don't protect you in your sleep. They're also smaller and lighter so they're easier to teleport for things with weight or length limits.

[Blue_Lion]

Maybe the X2 penalty for non space faring mages is that it was assumed for space fairing mage it was included in part of there training how to cast it.

[Killer Cyborg]

How is that any different from walking around with a bunch of MD weapons and equipment? PC's are already targets due to the value of all their gear. Adding some scrolls to the mix won't really make life any more dangerous than it already is.

It's easier to steal paper out of your pouch than armor off your back. Plus scrolls don't protect you in your sleep. They're also smaller and lighter so they're easier to teleport for things with weight or length limits.

I'm with Flatline here; PCs already carry lots of valuable gear.

[Blue_Lion]

How is that any different from walking around with a bunch of MD weapons and equipment? PC's are already targets due to the value of all their gear. Adding some scrolls to the mix won't really make life any more dangerous than it already is.

It's easier to steal paper out of your pouch than armor off your back. Plus scrolls don't protect you in your sleep. They're also smaller and lighter so they're easier to teleport for things with weight or length limits.

I'm with Flatline here; PCs already carry lots of valuable gear.

Do people really think pc sleep in their armor?
Biggest issue would be getting past a in depth cs inspection even if all the rest of your gear was NG paper would cause problems. Then there is the question of dog boys can track said paper.

The scroll is more likely to be stolen by pick pocket than a suit of pa. That would place your magic knowledge that mages hoard and collect in some strangers hands.

[Killer Cyborg]

How is that any different from walking around with a bunch of MD weapons and equipment? PC's are already targets due to the value of all their gear. Adding some scrolls to the mix won't really make life any more dangerous than it already is.

It's easier to steal paper out of your pouch than armor off your back. Plus scrolls don't protect you in your sleep. They're also smaller and lighter so they're easier to teleport for things with weight or length limits.

I'm with Flatline here; PCs already carry lots of valuable gear.

Do people really think pc sleep in their armor?
Biggest issue would be getting past a in depth cs inspection even if all the rest of your gear was NG paper would cause problems. Then there is the question of dog boys can track said paper.

The scroll is more likely to be stolen by pick pocket than a suit of pa. That would place your magic knowledge that mages hoard and collect in some strangers hands.

So's a gun or a grenade.
So don't let people pick your pocket.

[Shark_Force]

is getting your stuff stolen such a common occurence that it is a key part of optimization in your games or something 0.o

i mean, yeah, it happens. occasionally. but i can't help but suspect that the average pickpocket that is not a smoking pile of ash will generally target people who *don't* pack mega-damage weaponry. yeah, they pay-off isn't as high, unless you include as part of your payoff "not angering a person who can vaporise you and several of your friends with a single trigger pull".

[Blue_Lion]

is getting your stuff stolen such a common occurence that it is a key part of optimization in your games or something 0.o

i mean, yeah, it happens. occasionally. but i can't help but suspect that the average pickpocket that is not a smoking pile of ash will generally target people who *don't* pack mega-damage weaponry. yeah, they pay-off isn't as high, unless you include as part of your payoff "not angering a person who can vaporise you and several of your friends with a single trigger pull".

Most cities do not allow you to carry your mega damage weapon and armor, most pick pockets are in cities.

[flatline]

Perhaps we've strayed a bit off-topic.

[Killer Cyborg]

is getting your stuff stolen such a common occurence that it is a key part of optimization in your games or something 0.o

i mean, yeah, it happens. occasionally. but i can't help but suspect that the average pickpocket that is not a smoking pile of ash will generally target people who *don't* pack mega-damage weaponry. yeah, they pay-off isn't as high, unless you include as part of your payoff "not angering a person who can vaporise you and several of your friends with a single trigger pull".

Most cities do not allow you to carry your mega damage weapon and armor, most pick pockets are in cities.

Most cities won't let you carry magical scrolls inside either.

[Killer Cyborg]

Perhaps we've strayed a bit off-topic.

Twice in one thread that I agree with you.

[dragonfett]

Rifts
Armor Bizzare
Armor of Ithan
Armor of Neptune (Ocean Magic)
Armor of Svarozhich (Living Flame)
Blood Armor (Soulmancy)
Bulletproof (Combat Magic)
Coral Armor (Ocean Magic)
Cosmic Armor (Space Magic from PW)
Invincible Armor
Necro-Armor (Necromancy)
Pattern Armor (Nazcan Line Drawing)


Megaversally
Armor of Earth (Earth Warlock, Mysteries of Magic for PF)
Armor of Stone (Earth Warlock, Mysteries of Magic for PF)
Frost Armor (Frost Magic, Rifter #70 for PF)
Lunar Armor (Star Magic Rifter #50 for PF)
Magic Armor (Aliens Unlimited for HU)
Magic Armor (Nightbane main, a variant of Armor of Ithan)

So to get back on topic, are these the only magic armor spells (just spells that create magic suits of armor)?