Can Temporal Wizard or Warrior purchase additional spells?

[Nox Equites]

It isn't particularly clear in WB3 if they can or cannot buy new standard invocations or if they just get the ones from their time under tutelage. Is there an update to the first printing?

[The Beast]

Usually it says if a mage can purchase new spells. IMO, without an update in a later printing, the lack of any such line in their write-ups indicate they only get a new spell every other level.

[Nightmask]

No reason why they shouldn't be able to, they're a trained and educated type of mage like the Ley Line Walker not an Intuitive sort like the Biomancer or Mystic.

[eliakon]

It isn't particularly clear in WB3 if they can or cannot buy new standard invocations or if they just get the ones from their time under tutelage. Is there an update to the first printing?

No update at this time that I am aware of.
Technically there is nothing in the rules that allows for the common fanon distinction between 'intuitive' and 'scholastic' mages which means that RAW magic is governed by the general magical rules.....which don't explicitly cover who is allowed to learn spells.

The normal precedent is to say both if you can learn spells or if you can not. This class though says neither meaning that RAW its a GMs call which way to run things. There are equally valid reasons to assume each stance, and in the absolute lack of canon at this time its up to you and your GM (or you if you are the GM)

[drewkitty ~..~]

It isn't particularly clear in WB3 if they can or cannot buy new standard invocations or if they just get the ones from their time under tutelage. Is there an update to the first printing?

Saying 'yes' to the Tem. Wiz. is a no braining. I don't even need to check the books, because they are wizards taught by the Temoral Raider.

*gets out the books*

After reading the Tem. Warrior text I would say 'yes'. They are practitioners of magic that learned it. The CC closest in concept to them is the Undead Hunter from the Yin Sloth book.

[Glistam]

I allow it and included it in my updated write-up for the Temporal Wizard.

[Mack]

Temporal Wizard - I'd allow them to purchase new Invocations the same as a Ley Line Walker.

Temporal Warrior - I'd allow them to purchase low level spells consistent with the limits in their "years of servitude" description. A "six year" warrior could only learn Invocations from levels 1-4. "Ten year"... levels 1-5. "Fourteen year"... levels 1-6. Invocations above that are simply beyond their magic knowledge. Also, I'd double the amount of instruction he needs to learn a new Invocation.

[flatline]

We always thought that anyone who understands the principles of magic (aka, not a mystic of some sort) can purchase spell magic. Based on that understanding, we always allowed temporal wizards and temporal warriors to purchase spell magic just like the LLW or shifter.

Based on their description, we always thought that temporal wizards were to ley line walkers what a tenured math professor was to a grad student. The ley line walker can figure out spells on his own, but they're limited by their level. The temporal wizard has such a nuanced understanding of magic, that they can figure out spells of any level on their own, no matter what level they are.

Also they start out understanding temporal magic where the ley line walker isn't capable of understanding and casting temporal spells until higher levels are achieved.

Also they they start with more PPE.

Also they have more spell strength.

Of course, all that was compared to the RMB ley line walker. RUE gave LLW's a significant bump in several regards. Too bad the Temporal Wizard never got "upgraded" the way that the LLW or Shifter did. Even so, they're still competitive.

[drewkitty ~..~]

We always thought that anyone who understands the principles of magic (aka, not a mystic of some sort) can purchase spell magic. Based on that understanding, we always allowed temporal wizards and temporal warriors to purchase spell magic just like the LLW or shifter.
...snip

A better way to put it would be 'any that learned their spell casting from hard work and study (opposed to having it given to them or just knows how intuitively) can acquire more magic through being taught it by another mage.'
There are one important limitation, that the mages have to be ether of the same school of specialized magic or both use common magic spells.

I say it is a better way to say it cause there are char classes that 'know' the principles of magic with out the spell casting abilities.

Just defining the below...
"...(opposed to having it given to them or just knows how intuitively)..."
Granted spell powers are what witches & priests have (I would include warlocks) because the powers are given to them.
Intuitive spell casting are what psi mystics/mystics, mystic knights and Chaos Wizards have because they 'just can make magic'

[eliakon]

We always thought that anyone who understands the principles of magic (aka, not a mystic of some sort) can purchase spell magic. Based on that understanding, we always allowed temporal wizards and temporal warriors to purchase spell magic just like the LLW or shifter.
...snip

A better way to put it would be 'any that learned their spell casting from hard work and study (opposed to having it given to them or just knows how intuitively) can acquire more magic through being taught it by another mage.'
There are one important limitation, that the mages have to be ether of the same school of specialized magic or both use common magic spells.

I say it is a better way to say it cause there are char classes that 'know' the principles of magic with out the spell casting abilities.

Just defining the below...
"...(opposed to having it given to them or just knows how intuitively)..."
Granted spell powers are what witches & priests have (I would include warlocks) because the powers are given to them.
Intuitive spell casting are what psi mystics/mystics, mystic knights and Chaos Wizards have because they 'just can make magic'

Which works okay.....
...except of course for all those weird cases where it doesn't (Forsaken Mages come to mind for example)
Its not a bad house rule of course....
...but like I said. RAW doesn't actually give this ability to people that don't have it in their class features list since "can learn spells" is not actually a feature of magic but of class....

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...
...but like I said. RAW doesn't actually give this ability to people that don't have it in their class features list since "can learn spells" is not actually a feature of magic but of class....

No disagreement. That was just a generalized statement. As such it is always subject to the specifics of individual class texts.
-----------
Here is another Q that could be asked about most mages across the megaverse. Can the class get spells from spell scroll conversions?

In this case I would say the T.Wiz. can/could, while the T.Warrior couldn't.

[Bill]

The text does not include the option for temporal casters to learn additional spells by purchasing them from a guild. GMs can choose to allow them to do so as a houserule. I would just because I think it makes the game more fun.

[eliakon]

snip...
...but like I said. RAW doesn't actually give this ability to people that don't have it in their class features list since "can learn spells" is not actually a feature of magic but of class....

No disagreement. That was just a generalized statement. As such it is always subject to the specifics of individual class texts.
-----------
Here is another Q that could be asked about most mages across the megaverse. Can the class get spells from spell scroll conversions?

In this case I would say the T.Wiz. can/could, while the T.Warrior couldn't.

As far as I have been able to determine.....
....if you can learn new spells, then it seems that you can learn them from scrolls (Unless of course you cant....some classes have that note for instance). Caveat to that is that the rates of conversions, and their effects, and everything about them in fact depends on the game line who's rules are being consulted....
....meaning like most other things there is no one 'Megaversal' answer beyond 'that depends on things'


I would say that both questions boil down to "what makes the best story for the GMs game?" followed by "Then use that in your games"

[flatline]

The text does not include the option for temporal casters to learn additional spells by purchasing them from a guild. GMs can choose to allow them to do so as a houserule. I would just because I think it makes the game more fun.

Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that a magic user can purchase spells unless their class description specifically denies it?

[drewkitty ~..~]

The text does not include the option for temporal casters to learn additional spells by purchasing them from a guild. GMs can choose to allow them to do so as a houserule. I would just because I think it makes the game more fun.

Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that a magic user can purchase spells unless their class description specifically denies it?

No.

[flatline]

The text does not include the option for temporal casters to learn additional spells by purchasing them from a guild. GMs can choose to allow them to do so as a houserule. I would just because I think it makes the game more fun.

Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that a magic user can purchase spells unless their class description specifically denies it?

No.

Go read the pursuit of magic section. It makes it sound like being able to purchase magic is the default.

[eliakon]

The text does not include the option for temporal casters to learn additional spells by purchasing them from a guild. GMs can choose to allow them to do so as a houserule. I would just because I think it makes the game more fun.

Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that a magic user can purchase spells unless their class description specifically denies it?

Why?
The specific reason I don't see why that would make sense is that, starting with the basic core classes in each game line we see that they get called out specifically as being able to learn spells.
And over and over again that ability is listed as a class feature of many magic using classes.
Since it is not a function of magic anywhere, but one of class......
the logic to me is "if you want class feature X, your class has to offer it (or your GM has to grant it to you)"
As for why the Temporal caster might not be able to do this? A few from just off the top of my head include.....

-Maybe they concentrated on their studies of Time to much. They are experts at one tiny narrow highly esoteric field....but as a result they cut corners pretty much everywhere else.... (for example, I would myself allow any Temporal caster to pick up additional Temporal and related spells at any time....but not other spells)

-Maybe they have learned a specific hyper-specialized version of magic (similar to the Smoker in Rifts: Manhunter) and need to get formula written to their special unique way of casting.....meaning that they could learn Firebolt....if you have the "Temporal Raiderized version" of Firebolt to teach them as the regular one just wont do.

-Maybe part of their studies involves learning to 'hear the sounds of time" or some other technobabble.....meaning that they are basically trained into what is more or less an 'intuitive' caster class.....they learn spells through inspiration and trial and error and are not actually learning through rote book learning (which might explain why they need long complex apprenticeships instead of the normal teaching times for 'normal' scholastic type magic.....because they aren't)

[Bill]

You could use the opening line from the pursuit of magic section in RUE as a default. It is however a straight copy paste from the RMB, when the only magic users were mystics, ley line walkers, shifters, and technowizards. The majority of other magic using OCCs include a statement to the effect that they do or do not have the ability and/or inclination to learn additional spells, which tends to support the idea that if they could the OCC would indicate that it is so. On the other hand, WB3 was published very early in the game's history and the standard features of OCCs were still being ironed out. Much as with the rest of the game it's highly subject to interpretation and the GM's preference wins out.

A new edition would certainly help to clarify this sort of thing, wouldn't it?

[Library Ogre]

I view them as "learned casters", and therefore able to acquire spells outside of level increases.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The text does not include the option for temporal casters to learn additional spells by purchasing them from a guild. GMs can choose to allow them to do so as a houserule. I would just because I think it makes the game more fun.

Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that a magic user can purchase spells unless their class description specifically denies it?

No.

Go read the pursuit of magic section. It makes it sound like being able to purchase magic is the default.

Because Granted and Intuitive magic users don't have that option. They are dependent on their 'Patrons' and their coming to a 'new psychic level of ability' to gain new magic spells. Which are the Core concepts for those types char classes.

If you had used the term mage or magi there would of been no objection from me.

[Nightmask]

The text does not include the option for temporal casters to learn additional spells by purchasing them from a guild. GMs can choose to allow them to do so as a houserule. I would just because I think it makes the game more fun.

Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that a magic user can purchase spells unless their class description specifically denies it?

It does make more sense than a character that is trained as a mage and is said to 'work out' new spells after enough time (i.e. he levels) not being able to also learn spells by purchasing them from others. If he can puzzle things out on his own to gain new spells it means he's learning them and if he can learn them he should be able to simply acquire them from others. After all that's how he started, by having someone teach him how to access magic and a variety of starting spells to go with it. There's no reason to think he'd somehow stop being able to learn from others after reaching level 1.

[eliakon]

The text does not include the option for temporal casters to learn additional spells by purchasing them from a guild. GMs can choose to allow them to do so as a houserule. I would just because I think it makes the game more fun.

Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that a magic user can purchase spells unless their class description specifically denies it?

It does make more sense than a character that is trained as a mage and is said to 'work out' new spells after enough time (i.e. he levels) not being able to also learn spells by purchasing them from others. If he can puzzle things out on his own to gain new spells it means he's learning them and if he can learn them he should be able to simply acquire them from others. After all that's how he started, by having someone teach him how to access magic and a variety of starting spells to go with it. There's no reason to think he'd somehow stop being able to learn from others after reaching level 1.

Since we already have examples of this in game we know that This Is A Thing....
That is why I offered a few ideas of examples of how it could work.
One problem with this thinking is that it entails the conclusion as part of the premise.....i.e. it presupposes that Temporal Wizards are what is termed "scholastic mages" and thus they should be treated as a "scholastic mage".....which is circular. If, for example, Temporal Wizards are, in fact not 'scholastic mages' then they shouldn't be treated as such.
It also presupposes that if they are 'scholastic mages' that they will operate like most other 'scholastic mages'....even though we know that there are 'scholastic mages' who do not operate that way. Since we know that at least some 'scholastic mages' function differently it seems to not follow that the Temporal Mage must operate in a specific manor even if we presuppose that they are 'scholastic' they could still be trained mages and not be able to learn additional spells from scrolls (and or be taught by teachers, or only by some teachers, or....).

[flatline]

The text does not include the option for temporal casters to learn additional spells by purchasing them from a guild. GMs can choose to allow them to do so as a houserule. I would just because I think it makes the game more fun.

Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that a magic user can purchase spells unless their class description specifically denies it?

No.

Go read the pursuit of magic section. It makes it sound like being able to purchase magic is the default.

Because Granted and Intuitive magic users don't have that option. They are dependent on their 'Patrons' and their coming to a 'new psychic level of ability' to gain new magic spells. Which are the Core concepts for those types char classes.

If you had used the term mage or magi there would of been no objection from me.

In the future, I think I'll adopt Mark's terminology "learned spell caster".

[Nightmask]

The text does not include the option for temporal casters to learn additional spells by purchasing them from a guild. GMs can choose to allow them to do so as a houserule. I would just because I think it makes the game more fun.

Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that a magic user can purchase spells unless their class description specifically denies it?

It does make more sense than a character that is trained as a mage and is said to 'work out' new spells after enough time (i.e. he levels) not being able to also learn spells by purchasing them from others. If he can puzzle things out on his own to gain new spells it means he's learning them and if he can learn them he should be able to simply acquire them from others. After all that's how he started, by having someone teach him how to access magic and a variety of starting spells to go with it. There's no reason to think he'd somehow stop being able to learn from others after reaching level 1.

Since we already have examples of this in game we know that This Is A Thing....
That is why I offered a few ideas of examples of how it could work.
One problem with this thinking is that it entails the conclusion as part of the premise.....i.e. it presupposes that Temporal Wizards are what is termed "scholastic mages" and thus they should be treated as a "scholastic mage".....which is circular. If, for example, Temporal Wizards are, in fact not 'scholastic mages' then they shouldn't be treated as such.
It also presupposes that if they are 'scholastic mages' that they will operate like most other 'scholastic mages'....even though we know that there are 'scholastic mages' who do not operate that way. Since we know that at least some 'scholastic mages' function differently it seems to not follow that the Temporal Mage must operate in a specific manor even if we presuppose that they are 'scholastic' they could still be trained mages and not be able to learn additional spells from scrolls (and or be taught by teachers, or only by some teachers, or....).

Except that if some trained mages explicitly note that they can't learn new spells anytime that they feel like or can afford then you have what's known as an exception, so as an exception then the rule must be contrary to the exception and if the exception was that those particular trained, 'scholastic mages' can't purchase and learn new spells anytime that they feel like then the rule would be that all other such mages can. There is no need to put under every scholastic mages write-up that they can purchase new spells anytime that they want because the rule is that they can, since effort is made to point out the ones that can't. If they redundantly note that a mage can learn new spells anytime that they want that's fine they're just restating the rule not an exception.

[The Beast]

The text does not include the option for temporal casters to learn additional spells by purchasing them from a guild. GMs can choose to allow them to do so as a houserule. I would just because I think it makes the game more fun.

Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that a magic user can purchase spells unless their class description specifically denies it?

It does make more sense than a character that is trained as a mage and is said to 'work out' new spells after enough time (i.e. he levels) not being able to also learn spells by purchasing them from others. If he can puzzle things out on his own to gain new spells it means he's learning them and if he can learn them he should be able to simply acquire them from others. After all that's how he started, by having someone teach him how to access magic and a variety of starting spells to go with it. There's no reason to think he'd somehow stop being able to learn from others after reaching level 1.

Since we already have examples of this in game we know that This Is A Thing....
That is why I offered a few ideas of examples of how it could work.
One problem with this thinking is that it entails the conclusion as part of the premise.....i.e. it presupposes that Temporal Wizards are what is termed "scholastic mages" and thus they should be treated as a "scholastic mage".....which is circular. If, for example, Temporal Wizards are, in fact not 'scholastic mages' then they shouldn't be treated as such.
It also presupposes that if they are 'scholastic mages' that they will operate like most other 'scholastic mages'....even though we know that there are 'scholastic mages' who do not operate that way. Since we know that at least some 'scholastic mages' function differently it seems to not follow that the Temporal Mage must operate in a specific manor even if we presuppose that they are 'scholastic' they could still be trained mages and not be able to learn additional spells from scrolls (and or be taught by teachers, or only by some teachers, or....).

Except that if some trained mages explicitly note that they can't learn new spells anytime that they feel like or can afford then you have what's known as an exception, so as an exception then the rule must be contrary to the exception and if the exception was that those particular trained, 'scholastic mages' can't purchase and learn new spells anytime that they feel like then the rule would be that all other such mages can. There is no need to put under every scholastic mages write-up that they can purchase new spells anytime that they want because the rule is that they can, since effort is made to point out the ones that can't. If they redundantly note that a mage can learn new spells anytime that they want that's fine they're just restating the rule not an exception.

Actually the mere fact that this thread exists indicates that there is a need to specify which magic OCCs can learn spells outside of leveling up and which can't. Otherwise you get OCCs like these two where you get one group of people seeing the lack of any mention of not being able to purchase magic meaning they can purchase magic, and others that see in these two cases, it only says they can learn one new temporal magic (TM) spell and one new common magic (CM) spell per level (Temporal Wizard), or one new TM spell or one new CM spell per every other level (Temporal Warrior), and take that to mean that that is the only way these two OCCs can learn magic.

[eliakon]

The text does not include the option for temporal casters to learn additional spells by purchasing them from a guild. GMs can choose to allow them to do so as a houserule. I would just because I think it makes the game more fun.

Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that a magic user can purchase spells unless their class description specifically denies it?

It does make more sense than a character that is trained as a mage and is said to 'work out' new spells after enough time (i.e. he levels) not being able to also learn spells by purchasing them from others. If he can puzzle things out on his own to gain new spells it means he's learning them and if he can learn them he should be able to simply acquire them from others. After all that's how he started, by having someone teach him how to access magic and a variety of starting spells to go with it. There's no reason to think he'd somehow stop being able to learn from others after reaching level 1.

Since we already have examples of this in game we know that This Is A Thing....
That is why I offered a few ideas of examples of how it could work.
One problem with this thinking is that it entails the conclusion as part of the premise.....i.e. it presupposes that Temporal Wizards are what is termed "scholastic mages" and thus they should be treated as a "scholastic mage".....which is circular. If, for example, Temporal Wizards are, in fact not 'scholastic mages' then they shouldn't be treated as such.
It also presupposes that if they are 'scholastic mages' that they will operate like most other 'scholastic mages'....even though we know that there are 'scholastic mages' who do not operate that way. Since we know that at least some 'scholastic mages' function differently it seems to not follow that the Temporal Mage must operate in a specific manor even if we presuppose that they are 'scholastic' they could still be trained mages and not be able to learn additional spells from scrolls (and or be taught by teachers, or only by some teachers, or....).

Except that if some trained mages explicitly note that they can't learn new spells anytime that they feel like or can afford then you have what's known as an exception, so as an exception then the rule must be contrary to the exception and if the exception was that those particular trained, 'scholastic mages' can't purchase and learn new spells anytime that they feel like then the rule would be that all other such mages can. There is no need to put under every scholastic mages write-up that they can purchase new spells anytime that they want because the rule is that they can, since effort is made to point out the ones that can't. If they redundantly note that a mage can learn new spells anytime that they want that's fine they're just restating the rule not an exception.

Again that's presupposing that the baseline is that you can just always learn spells.
There isn't AFAIK anything in the books anywhere that says all mages who learn magic in some scholastic form have that privilege unless otherwise stated. Ergo its not 'an exception'. The other classes could just as easily be seen as the exceptions since they all say that they CAN learn new spells. It all depends on what you set the baseline as. Since canon is rather unclear on what the baseline is the GM will have to make a call since there isn't a 'clear and obvious' answer.
If there was a clear and obvious answer, then this (and the various related questions that constantly crop up) would not be asked since it would be simple one could simply point to the rules and say "on page X of book Y it says that scholarly mages can always learn new spells" or some such. But there isn't such a thing, so we are left with making inferences. Inferences that rely on choosing what we want to use as our baselines and what we want to define the terms we are using as. Then based on how we defined the terms we will arrive at the answer that we wanted since we will always get the same answer....if we use the same definitions and baselines.

[Library Ogre]

In the future, I think I'll adopt Mark's terminology "learned spell caster".

Write enough about magic, and you start realizing the need for a robust and descriptive vocabulary.

[Blue_Lion]

Things can get murky on such issues do to several reason.
1 the fact that an order of mystics can train apprentices to open to the path of magic the same way as though they learned to use magic a set way. *Mystic Knight*
2 Some magi classes are limited to what level spells they can learn. *High magus*

So like many issues in magic it is subject to debate and weather or not it is allowed is up to the GM.