SDC guns doing MDC damage...

[tsh77769]

I know about the ramjets. What are some other options for getting MDC damage out of SDC weapons, both technological and magical?

I really like the idea of sdc bullet chuckers with the option of using wood, silver, or other special rounds, and then switch over to MDC if need be. Plus, resistance to various types of energy is so common.

Thanks.

[SpiritInterface]

I know about the ramjets. What are some other options for getting MDC damage out of SDC weapons, both technological and magical?

I really like the idea of sdc bullet chuckers with the option of using wood, silver, or other special rounds, and then switch over to MDC if need be. Plus, resistance to various types of energy is so common.

Thanks.

Any being that needs wood or silver don't have SDC they have hit points. There are both Wood and Silver sabot shotgun rounds. DU rounds do MD I believe.

[Glistam]

Rifts Mercenaries has the caseless ammo, which when fired in bursts and with depleted uranium can inflict mega-damage.

Juicer uprising offered a shorgun which can fire regular shorgun shells as well as mega-damage explosive or ramjet shells.

New West offers the Wilks CRT (I think that's the abbreviation) - basically single-shot mega-damage lasers in the form of a bullet. These bullets come in a variety of ammo sizes and as long as the gun firing them is made from mega-damage materials they will work. Which makes them interchangable with S.D.C. ammo in those guns.

[ShadowLogan]

I know about the ramjets. What are some other options for getting MDC damage out of SDC weapons, both technological and magical?

I really like the idea of sdc bullet chuckers with the option of using wood, silver, or other special rounds, and then switch over to MDC if need be. Plus, resistance to various types of energy is so common.

Thanks.

Materials that they are vulnerable to like wood, silver, etc specifically or uranium/depleted uranium
Explosive Rounds
Ramjets (as mentionedz0
Wilk's CFT (mentioned), drawback is they will likely slag the SDC weapon potentially either by ROF or by chance (better than 50%)
Enchant Weapon: Minor (spell magic) IIRC can turn SD bullets into MD bullets
Psi-Slinger Class in New West can also charge the weapon to turn it into MD capable
large caliber rounds have the potential in bursts (or they use to)
Technowizard Class can technically channel a spell casting through the weapon as an appropriate focus (w/o focus they incur penalties/cost)
Ward/Runes (magic) MIGHT work if the GM is flexible and allows you to "ward" the bullet and it activates when the bullet is fired
Possibly the Tarno Crystal in SB3 (it works for defensive purposes for sure, just not sure about offensive)

[Kagashi]

You can borrow SLAP/HEAP/LEAP small arms ammo from Robotech that turns SDC guns into MDC weapons. Its unclear if these weapons are made specifically to handle MDC rounds or if any SDC weapon can use the MDC rounds in that game.

These rounds appear to come in the following calibers:

Pistols:
10mm
.45
4.5mm caseless

Rifles/MGs:
5.56mm
7.62x51mm
.50
12.7mm
14.5mm

Its of note that while there are 9mm pistols in Robotech, there are no SLAP/HEAP/LEAP rounds for it. Humans seem to have gravitated to 10mm for their conventional pistols after the invention of Robotechnology.

[Kagashi]

Psi-Slinger Class in New West can also charge the weapon to turn it into MD capable

Is this the TK power Im wanting to mention? Where you take any SDC gun and charge 6 TK rounds in it?

[flatline]

ShadowLogan's list looks pretty comprehensive.

If you're already using a shotgun, the APRJ rounds are amazingly cost effective (2D6MD for $20). Less so if you use the stats from Juicer Uprising (3D6MD for $200 I think...going from memory). No other ramjet round is cost effective since you have to fire bursts.

Enchant Weapon: Minor works for all SDC ammunition so it's a good way to turn a pathetic weapon (.22LR pistol for example) into a 2D6MD dealing weapon.

I'd ignore everything else unless you have some special circumstances (like a Apok with explosive rounds since they convert SD into MD...scary stuff!).

[ShadowLogan]

Psi-Slinger Class in New West can also charge the weapon to turn it into MD capable

Is this the TK power Im wanting to mention? Where you take any SDC gun and charge 6 TK rounds in it?

I don't think so, that sounds like you are thinking of the TW-45/TW-6gun (pg214, other TW guns like this exist on pg214-7). The Psi-SLinger PCC's special ability #2 "Psychic Weapon" (WB14 pg98) allows them to link to the weapon, allowing them to charge the bullets (upto 15) to do a flat MD (regardless of the SDC damage it would do), the psychic can telekinetically call the linked weapon to them.

[Killer Cyborg]

I know about the ramjets. What are some other options for getting MDC damage out of SDC weapons, both technological and magical?

I really like the idea of sdc bullet chuckers with the option of using wood, silver, or other special rounds, and then switch over to MDC if need be. Plus, resistance to various types of energy is so common.

Thanks.

Inflicting more than 100 SDC in one attack can damage MDC targets.
So a large caliber rifle (as per RUE 328) that inflicts 1d6x10+3 SDC per shot would inflict 2d6x10+3 SDC per short burst, which would allow for a small chance of inflicting 1 MD.
Likewise, a Heavy Caliber Machine-Gun or Mini-Gun can inflict 1d8x10 SDC on a short burst, allowing for inflicting 1 MD on a critical hit, or 2d8x10+20 SDC on a long burst, allowing for 1 MD on an average hit.

High Explosive Cartridges (RGMG 112) inflict +1d6x10 SDC, and Armor Piercing rounds inflict +1d6 SDC, and each of those would add to a standard SDC gun's chance of inflicting at least 1 MD.
The Large Caliber Rifle above, for example, would inflict 2d6x10+3 SDC on a single shot, which would allow for the possibility of inflicting 1 MD to MDC targets. A short burst would inflict 4d6x10+6 SDC, a range of 46-246 SDC, which would allow for up to 2 MD to be inflicted.

There are also explosive and plasma rounds for shotguns listed on 112 of the RGMG.
Explosive inflict 2d6 MD to a 10' area per single shot or 3d6 MD to a 20' area per double blast.
Plasma rounds inflict 3d6 MD to a 6' area per single shot, or 5d6 MD to a 12' area per double blast.

[Svartalf]

No it doesn't, you can make a lot more than 100 SDC with an M16 burst, it still won't do damage to an MDC structure/being, you need an actual LAW to do that.

[Alrik Vas]

High base damage armor piercing rounds could do MD, but I'd go with bursting APRJ rounds for solid ammunition mega-damage. If you can modify them with MD high explosive, similar to how current anti-materiel rounds work (which probably would just use Robotech rules) they might be stronger.

[Kagashi]

No it doesn't, you can make a lot more than 100 SDC with an M16 burst, it still won't do damage to an MDC structure/being, you need an actual LAW to do that.

In first edition this was correct. As of RUE, KC's references are correct.

[Svartalf]

OK, I haven't read RUE, and didn't think Kev would change something that basic

[Natasha]

OK, I haven't read RUE, and didn't think Kev would change something that basic

You clearly haven't read RUE

[Svartalf]

How would I, I can't order online and French stores have stopped ordering PB products, too few buyers for them to turn a profit on that brand... PB just isn't popular in France.

[Natasha]

How would I, I can't order online and French stores have stopped ordering PB products, too few buyers for them to turn a profit on that brand... PB just isn't popular in France.

Just playing with you. Trying to get it all out of my system before our game...

[Alrik Vas]

me too. Left mine 2 weeks ago in the middle of combat. Always rough to pick it back up from there.

[Kagashi]

How would I, I can't order online and French stores have stopped ordering PB products, too few buyers for them to turn a profit on that brand... PB just isn't popular in France.

Dont worry, its like that anywhere outside Michigan too.

Amazon or Ebay is the best bet.

[Svartalf]

IF you can buy online, which I can't... otherwise Amazon would be my way.

[Alrik Vas]

Why can't you, if you don't mind me asking?

[Svartalf]

long story short, I made mistakes and I don't have a credit card or other web compatible means of payment... I pay cash or not at all.

[glitterboy2098]

New West offers the Wilks CRT (I think that's the abbreviation) - basically single-shot mega-damage lasers in the form of a bullet. These bullets come in a variety of ammo sizes and as long as the gun firing them is made from mega-damage materials they will work. Which makes them interchangeable with S.D.C. ammo in those guns.

not quite. unless fired from a dedicated CFT weapon the range is about a third of normal. and even in an MDC materials made weapon there is a major chance of the weapons exploding with each shot. an SDC weapon the explosion is pretty much a guaranteed.

this indicates that the CFT guns have a bunch of design things to make it work right, like focusing systems to improve the range, and some form of heat exchanges or vent or something to eliminate the chance of the cartridge blowing up when fired.

using CFT rounds in anything except a CFT gun is very much a bad idea.

[Killer Cyborg]

No it doesn't, you can make a lot more than 100 SDC with an M16 burst, it still won't do damage to an MDC structure/being, you need an actual LAW to do that.

In first edition this was correct. As of RUE, KC's references are correct.

Yup.

Also, even in the RMB, explosive SDC damage that did more than 100 MDC (like the LAW, as Svartalf said) could damage MDC targets. So an M-16 with High Explosive Rounds that did 1d6x10+4d6 SDC per shot would do 2d6x10+8d6 SDC on a short burst, which could still damage a MDC target if the roll was high enough.
An M-16 with HE cartridges that ripped off an entire clip at a single target would (post RUE, but pre-RGMG) inflict 7(1d6x10+4d6) SDC, for a range of 98-588 SDC, which could inflict as much as 5 MD on the high end.

[ShadowLogan]

not quite. unless fired from a dedicated CFT weapon the range is about a third of normal. and even in an MDC materials made weapon there is a major chance of the weapons exploding with each shot. an SDC weapon the explosion is pretty much a guaranteed.

this indicates that the CFT guns have a bunch of design things to make it work right, like focusing systems to improve the range, and some form of heat exchanges or vent or something to eliminate the chance of the cartridge blowing up when fired.

using CFT rounds in anything except a CFT gun is very much a bad idea.

Uhmmm... No. The CFT weapon operates just fine in its intended weapons, which are made from MDC materials. They are said to have a recoil, but nothing indicates the MDC weapon has a failure rate as you suggest.

There is a 65% chance of the CFT round will explode if fired in a conventional revolver or pistol (read SDC materials), if it is successfully discharged range is 1/2 that of normal CFT, more than 2 rounds per minute (60sec) will "melt the gun, fusing parts together and making it useless junk" (pg212 WB14).

[Tor]

No it doesn't, you can make a lot more than 100 SDC with an M16 burst, it still won't do damage to an MDC structure/being, you need an actual LAW to do that.

This is what the original text about MD seemed to imply, but it appears to have been forgotten as soon as Rifts Mercs.

[guardiandashi]

No it doesn't, you can make a lot more than 100 SDC with an M16 burst, it still won't do damage to an MDC structure/being, you need an actual LAW to do that.

This is what the original text about MD seemed to imply, but it appears to have been forgotten as soon as Rifts Mercs.

I took it as a sorta yes sorta no situation going into the mercs situation.

prior to mercs it was clear that massed SDC from multiple sources absolutely did NOT get summed into low MDC.

in mercs there was the change or clarification that if one source of fire could do "enough" SDC it potentially could do MDC. What really changed in mercs was that it made some changes in what constituted "enough" SDC and what constituted a single source.

personally I have some "issues" with the idea that a large enough burst of wimpy little 4d6ish SDC ea. rounds can cause MDC, but that is the route they chose to go.

now granted it does essentially say that you need a huge number of relatively weak hits in a short amount of time, preferably concentrated in a small area, or exotic (read bullets made out of MDC material) or explosive rounds because for some reason explosive damage even in relatively small individual explosions can be additive towards determining if the damage done crosses the MDC threshold.

[glitterboy2098]

not quite. unless fired from a dedicated CFT weapon the range is about a third of normal. and even in an MDC materials made weapon there is a major chance of the weapons exploding with each shot. an SDC weapon the explosion is pretty much a guaranteed.

this indicates that the CFT guns have a bunch of design things to make it work right, like focusing systems to improve the range, and some form of heat exchanges or vent or something to eliminate the chance of the cartridge blowing up when fired.

using CFT rounds in anything except a CFT gun is very much a bad idea.

Uhmmm... No. The CFT weapon operates just fine in its intended weapons, which are made from MDC materials. They are said to have a recoil, but nothing indicates the MDC weapon has a failure rate as you suggest.

There is a 65% chance of the CFT round will explode if fired in a conventional revolver or pistol (read SDC materials), if it is successfully discharged range is 1/2 that of normal CFT, more than 2 rounds per minute (60sec) will "melt the gun, fusing parts together and making it useless junk" (pg212 WB14).

hey, working of memory means errors creep in.

but the fact there is a range difference at all says that the CFT guns have more involved than just MDC frame. otherwise you'd get the same range regardless of whether its a CFT or non-CFT weapon.

[Tor]

RMBp11 mentions 'a hail of bullets' either coming from M-16 assault rifles or sub-machine guns.

It mentions 'as many as 50' rounds hitting for about 300 SDC.

This comes from 30 rebel bandits though so this 'hail' might be from more than 1 gun.

RMBp244 lists only as much as a 30 round clip for the M16 rifle, and only as much as 30 round magazines for sub-machineguns, so I think even with a full melee burst it'd have to be more than one shooter for this 'hail'.

This means it is divided among different weapons/attacks so perhaps it's to say that combined SDC from multiple attacks do not equal MDC.

So this wouldn't contradict combined SDC in a single attack (even from multiple bullets) doing so.

RMBp38 also references an M-16 assault rifle, and specifies the sub-machinegun as an Uzi, and talks about a spray with a hail, saying the combined attack must number into the hundreds of damage.

I take it "spray" to just be a figure of speech rather than the spray maneuver, but it's still kinda odd.

Even with a full melee burst from both weapons, the "combined attack" would only do 2D6x10 + 4D6x10. So you could in theory only suffer 60 SDC from it. Why it 'must' be 'hundreds' I don't know.

On average 6D6x10 will produce 210 damage, which is in the hundreds, but scoring average or above isn't exactly a must.

[Killer Cyborg]

RMBp11 mentions 'a hail of bullets' either coming from M-16 assault rifles or sub-machine guns.

It mentions 'as many as 50' rounds hitting for about 300 SDC.

This comes from 30 rebel bandits though so this 'hail' might be from more than 1 gun.

RMBp244 lists only as much as a 30 round clip for the M16 rifle, and only as much as 30 round magazines for sub-machineguns, so I think even with a full melee burst it'd have to be more than one shooter for this 'hail'.

This means it is divided among different weapons/attacks so perhaps it's to say that combined SDC from multiple attacks do not equal MDC.

So this wouldn't contradict combined SDC in a single attack (even from multiple bullets) doing so.

Agreed.
50 bullets hitting from 30 bandits means they were probably doing short bursts, which would only be 4d6x2 damage, which would be 48 SDC maximum, and 28 SDC on average.
If 11 bandits hit for average damage, that's over 300 damage--but no one attack is over 100 SDC.

RMBp38 also references an M-16 assault rifle, and specifies the sub-machinegun as an Uzi, and talks about a spray with a hail, saying the combined attack must number into the hundreds of damage.

I take it "spray" to just be a figure of speech rather than the spray maneuver, but it's still kinda odd.

Even with a full melee burst from both weapons, the "combined attack" would only do 2D6x10 + 4D6x10. So you could in theory only suffer 60 SDC from it. Why it 'must' be 'hundreds' I don't know.

On average 6D6x10 will produce 210 damage, which is in the hundreds, but scoring average or above isn't exactly a must.

And from 3 bandits, 210 damage means 70 each on average, which is still less than 100 SDC per attack.

Meanwhile, the machinegun on the ATV Speedster Hover Cycle (RMB 226) inflicts 1d4 MD per burst of 50 rounds.
One of two things is happening with that weapon: either each round does 1+ MD, and only <4 rounds out of 50 actually hit the target, OR each individual round inflicts SDC, but the combined damage from a burst of 50 rounds is enough to inflict minor mega-damage.
Likewise, the Borg Forearm Mini-Machinegun on p. 241 fires a burst of 30 rounds and inflicts 2d4 MD.
Either each round inflicts 1 MD+, and only 2-4 rounds out of 30 rounds fired actually hit the target, OR each individual round inflicts SDC, and the combined damage from a burst is enough to inflict mega-damage when fired in a large burst.
While it's technically possible that those weapons DO inflict 1 MD per individual round, and that the weapons ARE simply wildly inaccurate... It doesn't seem to be the most likely interpretation of the facts.

[Alrik Vas]

The rounds used in the weapons might have something to do with it. Does it give damage for a single shot on the borg machine gun? It's possible it's firing explosive rounds, which would wear away armor, allowing subsequent rounds to deal actual damage.

It's weak supposition, I know, because it can't apply always, but it's about as consistent as many other rules for specific weapons.

[Tor]

Dat borg rail gun hand in NGR that does exactly 2 MD per shot but has dice allowing you to roll odd amounts.

[ShadowLogan]

not quite. unless fired from a dedicated CFT weapon the range is about a third of normal. and even in an MDC materials made weapon there is a major chance of the weapons exploding with each shot. an SDC weapon the explosion is pretty much a guaranteed.

this indicates that the CFT guns have a bunch of design things to make it work right, like focusing systems to improve the range, and some form of heat exchanges or vent or something to eliminate the chance of the cartridge blowing up when fired.

using CFT rounds in anything except a CFT gun is very much a bad idea.

Uhmmm... No. The CFT weapon operates just fine in its intended weapons, which are made from MDC materials. They are said to have a recoil, but nothing indicates the MDC weapon has a failure rate as you suggest.

There is a 65% chance of the CFT round will explode if fired in a conventional revolver or pistol (read SDC materials), if it is successfully discharged range is 1/2 that of normal CFT, more than 2 rounds per minute (60sec) will "melt the gun, fusing parts together and making it useless junk" (pg212 WB14).

hey, working of memory means errors creep in.

but the fact there is a range difference at all says that the CFT guns have more involved than just MDC frame. otherwise you'd get the same range regardless of whether its a CFT or non-CFT weapon.

I agree that the CFT guns are likely more involved than simply a frame.