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It seems to me like some Naruni gear would be harder to hide than others. The hardest being the giant stuff like space plane or big robotic Death Knight or Nomad Scout. Power armor like the Mecha Knight is slightly less hard since you might possible hide it inside a larger vehicle, like the Behemoth Explorer or Triax Devastator which can both store power armor inside.

Body armor would be even easier since you could wear it while piloting a robot, or fold it up and store it in some compartment.

Guns might be around the same as armor, obviously where you could stash them depending on size.

What tools do you think the CS might use when searching for this stuff? Can Psi-Hounds possibly sniff some kind of material unique to certain Naruni gear?

Would it be possible to disguise Naruni weaponry as something else? Like repaint it, change the appearance of the face/limbs?

Force fields are a love to me and I wonder, could the CS tell what a Naruni Force Field projector looks like? Are they trained to recognize these straps around someone's body? Or could it just look like a normal bandoleer?

What about if it's built into body armor? Is it more apparent than if it's built into a power armor or robot since those bigger things have more room to hide the components?

Does the CS assume any force field it sees is Naruni, or at least reason to investigate? There's other legal ways to get force fields (be a psychic, possibly a Sea Inquisitor, not sure CS policy on them) but even then, they like to monitor people with weird abilities.

Unless the thing with a FF is an Ulti-Max from the NGR, there's no grounds for it having a force field in North America, right? So the CS would investigate any time they found one? It could also indicate stuff like TW enhancements. But even if it was a Mind Melter using a TK Force Field: they ought not to be doing that! What do they have to hide from the CS? The CS must monitor why a psychic would be making a force field around a robot!

Makes me wonder about actual detection though. Short of seeing a missile exploding against a force field or something else obvious... how easy is it to tell when a force field is running? Is it visible? Does it hum? Do some attacks make the field more apparent than others? I expect for example that a plasma blast hitting a force field is more visible than a rail gun burst being deflected by it, in ranking flashiness.

The description of slowly approaching a force field without it stopping you sounds to me like it's in a passive mode even when it's on, so a CS guy slowly approaching a bot with a running force field might not even set it off, and he probably wouldn't be moving fast enough towards the field to trigger it unless he was already attacking it, right?

This first requires the GM to decide how forcefields work in their game
If the are invisible and silent its going to be different than if they hum and have shimmering glow.

Particularly since they could even rule separately for different kinds of force-fields. No telling if the fast-regenerating "can slowly stick your knife through" Naruni kind have the same traits as the slow-regenerating "impenetrable but can't fire your laser" Ulti-Max kind.

Kinda wondering if there's some NPC art which might give some suggestions.

I guess they wouldn't have prohibitions against Phase Tech because it's not common enough to cause a stir.

What if it's only against the weaopns and the force fields aren't well known enough to cause a stir?

Tor wrote:I guess they wouldn't have prohibitions against Phase Tech because it's not common enough to cause a stir.

I was under the impression that they confiscated any alien tech they found.

--flatline

Yes the cshas confiscated and can identify most Naruni gear.

I imagine that the checkpoints have display screens that say "These things are forbidden" that cycle constantly, so guards get familiar with them. Include decent 3D models and a camera, and anything the guards don't recognize can be positively identified or "selected for more intensive review and quarrantine."

Like most things, I suspect it will depend upon where you are and how closely you are searched. If you're just walking through a Coalition farm-town, I doubt anyone would notice your Naruni Force Field at all, but if you're entering a fortress-city, you're likely subject to a thorough search with a battery of sensors and any and all devices discovered would need to be identified. Unless you've convincingly had an operator modify your force field generator to look like a datapad or power-supply, I doubt you'd be able to get it past a serious inspection, and if they pulled it a part, it's alien origins would be quite obvious. I'd recommend against trying it.

flatline wrote:

Tor wrote:I guess they wouldn't have prohibitions against Phase Tech because it's not common enough to cause a stir.

I was under the impression that they confiscated any alien tech they found.

--flatline

I don't recall any lines saying this. From what I recall, as long as something isn't on the "banned" list, all they do is require you to put it in the security locker for the duration of your visit. after all, it's not like alien tech has "alien tech" written on it, and i'd imagine one high tech rifle looks like another. All they could tell is it's some model they havn't seen before. I dislike assigning omniscience to the CS or any power. a gun the guard dosn't recognise is not that unfamiliar in Rifts where there are all kinds of ways to have one that isn't just a basic Wilks or whatnot. I also strongly dislike that the CS is automatically familiar with all human tech either.

From the Naruni Wave Two book, it says anyone caught in Coalition territory with Naruni gear, is subject to immediate death. Gear confiscated, & destroyed. If, I recall it correctly. As for detecting it, what others have said about visual detection, & sensors would be about the only ways I can think of. A Psi-Bat soldier who could Object Read, might be able to detect it's alien origins under physical examination, but that's about it.

I don't recall, anything that says specifically how the CS detects the Naruni Tech, just that they can, & is a Capital Crime to own it.

"Hey, the rifle looks funny. I think it's Naruni."
"Shoot to kill."
*furious blasting with much collateral damage*
"Huh. I've never seen one of these before. Steve, you can read, what's it say?"
"Non-lethal Stunmaster, only from Pacifist Arms."
"Must be a Naruni company."

Straightforward method would be to program Skelebots to visually scan for it. That would catch anything out in the open (at a pretty good, long range too) and force folks to hide it.

In theory Naruni equipment might have a unique energy signature, which could be scanned for--but that's total speculation on my part. For that matter, I wonder if Dog Boys could be trained to smell for it (similar to the Sniffers)?

Psyscape WB, has examples of Psi-Tech items. Make a Psi-tech Item that uses Object Read at a range, & scan for alien devices.

The items in Psyscape are TW or CS, although I could see CS Psi-Techs helping to make them.

I'm not aware of CS building object read items although if they can manage a psi-sword/electrokinesis gauntlet it shouldn't be too hard. Maybe CS is better with offense than sense?

flatline wrote:I was under the impression that they confiscated any alien tech they found.

Probably, but there's the question of what it takes to recognize gear as alien.

Recognize Weapon Quality or Find Contraband, Weapons both approach it, but even without those skills it seems like the CS might be making mass awareness of Naruni stuff, at least the most common things like the firearms with their big bores and plasma cartridges, if not the less popular more expensive variant gear.

With object read I guess you could tell where it was manufactured, but aside from that, since most CS wouldn't have access to it, what they might do for cursory detection, and what costs/skills could go into avoiding that detection like changing appearance/smell or making it look like other gear.

Force fields in particular: generators are actually built into a robot or PA or cyborg, would you need a MD in cybernetics or Electrical/Mechanical/Robotics/Weapons Engineer to be able to tell the feature's added if you can't visibly see a force field blocking an attack?

Kind of like cops vs hotrods. They see you rolling, they pull you over and pop the hood.

Tor wrote:

flatline wrote:I was under the impression that they confiscated any alien tech they found.

Probably, but there's the question of what it takes to recognize gear as alien.

I don't think they need to know that it's alien to confiscate it, just that it's something that they don't recognize.

So basically, if it's not a well known brand like Northern Gun or Chipwell or Titan series, CS is gonna steal everyone's tech?

The issue with force fields though is... they can be added to gear that the CS wold recognize and possibly consider acceptable, like the above company's stuff. The question is if they'd recognize an alien modification was made to it.

I don't even know if they could sense TW modifications made to bots. Stuff that stores spell-juice sure, but I dunno for the 'have to pump ISP or PPE in to activate' stuff.

How easily could the CS tell if you had a Samson Power Armor (or Chipwell Assault Suit) with an Armor of Ithan option or a Naruni Force Field option?

You can hear the whine of a super charger on a V8, the blow off of a turbo on an inline 6, recognize carbon fiber paneling, look and see all seats but the driver's have been removed, spot the roll cage, the Z rated rubber and know it's a beast by the rumble from the pipes.

So...dude in Gladiator Armor rolls up with a power pack attached to his armor in the place the FF generator would have to be to provide the protection it grants...the Skullheads bring you out of line give you the business.

flatline wrote:

Tor wrote:

flatline wrote:I was under the impression that they confiscated any alien tech they found.

Probably, but there's the question of what it takes to recognize gear as alien.

I don't think they need to know that it's alien to confiscate it, just that it's something that they don't recognize.

I don't think that's so, they are said to confiscate contraband only. nowhere does it say "Any tech that looks even slightly funny" is contraband.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

flatline wrote:

Tor wrote:

flatline wrote:I was under the impression that they confiscated any alien tech they found.

Probably, but there's the question of what it takes to recognize gear as alien.

I don't think they need to know that it's alien to confiscate it, just that it's something that they don't recognize.

I don't think that's so, they are said to confiscate contraband only. nowhere does it say "Any tech that looks even slightly funny" is contraband.

Regarding alien technology in general, RUE, p. 231 says:

To use anything alien (i.e., anything that is NOT Coalition Army issue or produced by an ally nation like Northern Gun) is the first step to being seduced and corrupted into accepting that which is inhuman. Thus, most [Coalition soldiers] avoid alien and foreign technology like the plague[, c]ollecting it up and shipping it back to High Command or destroying it on the spot.

Regarding Naruni tech specifically, DB8, p. 7, says:

Most (70%) Coalition soldiers dutifully destroy Naruni items on the spot, the rest turn items over to their superiors (30%). NONE even consider using alien technology.

So, it's not necessary to determine that the technology is specifically a Naruni device; Neither the CS, nor Northern Gun, nor Triax makes personal force fields, thus all such devices are suspect.

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

flatline wrote:

Tor wrote:

flatline wrote:I was under the impression that they confiscated any alien tech they found.

Probably, but there's the question of what it takes to recognize gear as alien.

I don't think they need to know that it's alien to confiscate it, just that it's something that they don't recognize.

I don't think that's so, they are said to confiscate contraband only. nowhere does it say "Any tech that looks even slightly funny" is contraband.

Regarding alien technology in general, RUE, p. 231 says:

To use anything alien (i.e., anything that is NOT Coalition Army issue or produced by an ally nation like Northern Gun) is the first step to being seduced and corrupted into accepting that which is inhuman. Thus, most [Coalition soldiers] avoid alien and foreign technology like the plague[, c]ollecting it up and shipping it back to High Command or destroying it on the spot.

Well, I stand corrected then! completely missed that line. I guess it's best to carry only Northern Gun or Wellington Arms gear when visiting the CS then.

I wonder what other NA manufactuers might be considered "Native" enough. Wilks has a long enough legacy, even if their weapons were recently banned, I am pretty sure they won't confiscate a wilks laptop or other completely civilian gear.

The CS has an offical alliance and tech-sharing trade agreement with Triax, so I can only assume Triax equipment is also Kosher.

Regarding Naruni tech specifically, DB8, p. 7, says:

Most (70%) Coalition soldiers dutifully destroy Naruni items on the spot, the rest turn items over to their superiors (30%). NONE even consider using alien technology.

So, it's not necessary to determine that the technology is specifically a Naruni device; Neither the CS, nor Northern Gun, nor Triax makes personal force fields, thus all such devices are suspect.

Oh, I wasn't questioning that they would confiscate or destroy Naruni technology, I know they were specifically contraband, I just didn't think they'd round up say, Chipwell gear, or Colombian gear, just because they are new and not necessarily familiar. but apparently they ARE that paranoid, so!

Alrik Vas wrote:dude in Gladiator Armor rolls up with a power pack attached to his armor in the place the FF generator would have to be to provide the protection it grants...the Skullheads bring you out of line give you the business.

Seems fair enoguh consideration for body armor.

Power Armor on Robots on the other hand... already inherently noisier, bigger and full of more nooks and crannies, and if you build it into the armor and connect it to the nuclear plant I don't even know if there's be anything visibly exteriorly anymore.

Tinker Dragoon wrote:it's not necessary to determine that the technology is specifically a Naruni device; Neither the CS, nor Northern Gun, nor Triax makes personal force fields, thus all such devices are suspect.

Yes but if it's not on, you're safe?

Even if it is on, it's all about how noticeable the effects of forcefields are. Do you notice it simply because whatever's getting hit isn't taking damage? Or explosions happening too far away from their target? Beams stopping before contact? A shimmering field that glitters when a punch is stopped? An always visible field?

Or possibly just a Psi-Slayer or Psi-Warrior who both start with Psi Body Field, although I think the CS would want to apprehend any non-CS master psionics like them.

We all agree the CS wants anything they think is Naruni, just not sure about what it takes to make them think that.

Do the CS allow people to wander about as they please in PA? Back to my cop and hot rod analogy, if they flag you down and you give them gruff, they'll have you "pop the hood."

Impossible to catch everyone, just like in real life.

Alrik Vas wrote:Do the CS allow people to wander about as they please in PA? Back to my cop and hot rod analogy, if they flag you down and you give them gruff, they'll have you "pop the hood."

Impossible to catch everyone, just like in real life.

To a point the CS does. Not inside the cities but the wilderness is dangerous place many merc and adventures do good work for the CS. Inside there territory proper they might require a some sort of pass but the farther they get from the super cities the less they worry people with known suits of armor. Unless they match the description of some one they are looking for a wilderness encounter with people that use PA is not likely to be grounds for an arrest. (I remember the they use to talk about black market selling travel passes to go through cs territory.)

The explanation is reasonable, and about what I knew already. Though the question was rhetorical. I know what the book says and suggests, but with such a large percentage of the CS population in the military or police, I find it hard they would rely heavily on mercs within their borders.

A bit beside the point, though.

How clearly defined are the borders? Probably not very.

flatline wrote:How clearly defined are the borders? Probably not very.

Yes and No, the CS has a map with very clear borders, the problem is those boarders include a lot of areas that are flat-out not in their control where they have very little sway (for example, most of the peacos bandits are technically within CS territory, but the CS military has almost no presence beyond protecting the Lone Star facility in the region). so right there is a lot of space that is technically within the CS's borders (as they recognise them) but in actuality they prefer using mercs to actually do anything in the region.

Likewise there are other smaller communities and city-states within "claimed" boarders that they don't control. basically the CS boarder map includes a lot of goverments they don't recognise the legitmacy of. but that dosn't mean they actually control those areas.

"I claim this land for the Coalition States!"
"Bud, I don't know who you are, but this is my living room."

flatline wrote:How clearly defined are the borders? Probably not very.

Look, Joseph! Everything the laser sight touches is our kingdom!

Proseksword wrote:

flatline wrote:How clearly defined are the borders? Probably not very.

Look, Joseph! Everything the laser sight touches is our kingdom!

Yep, that's the way War Campaign describes things. The Coalition has all kinds of plans to build its military forces for expansion.

Tor wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:it's not necessary to determine that the technology is specifically a Naruni device; Neither the CS, nor Northern Gun, nor Triax makes personal force fields, thus all such devices are suspect.

Yes but if it's not on, you're safe?

Even if it is on, it's all about how noticeable the effects of forcefields are. Do you notice it simply because whatever's getting hit isn't taking damage? Or explosions happening too far away from their target? Beams stopping before contact? A shimmering field that glitters when a punch is stopped? An always visible field?

Or possibly just a Psi-Slayer or Psi-Warrior who both start with Psi Body Field, although I think the CS would want to apprehend any non-CS master psionics like them.

We all agree the CS wants anything they think is Naruni, just not sure about what it takes to make them think that.

Unfortunately, we don't know what force fields really look like on Rifts Earth -- neither the fields themselves nor the devices that generate them. If weapon illustrations are any guide, I would expect force field generators to have their model numbers clearly marked on their casings, although these likely can be sanded off or painted over by the owner. Still, the physical design of force field generators may be distinctive in some other visually identifiable way, but also possibly requiring thorough inspection in order to be noticed.

There are numerous illustrations of magical and psionic force fields in effect, typically appearing as transparent or translucent walls or glowing auras, but I cannot recall ever seeing a technological force field depicted.

Alrik Vas wrote:Do the CS allow people to wander about as they please in PA? Back to my cop and hot rod analogy, if they flag you down and you give them gruff, they'll have you "pop the hood." Impossible to catch everyone, just like in real life.

Makes me wonder how many fights that could start though, a lot of roaming Mercs or Adventureres who could be prospect freelancers for the CS in the future may not wish for such attention.

Gets me going about TW apparentness too. The general description of being 'painted red' for Impervious to Fire or having an air tank for breathe without air, neither seem apparent...

Aside from actually noticing gems which scream TW (any dogs capable of sniffing out gems not in plain view?) I don't know how they'd even know how to find TW equipment if it wasn't active.

Considering that 'duration' in RMB was often measured in shots, I take that to mean that any gun storing a payload is sniffable, so you would have to completely deplete all shots to prevent dog boys from smelling the gun. Same with any PPE/ISP powered engines, would basically have to change to a tech backup propulsion or something or leave it parked.

Not sure if there are options to release the payload without firing though.

Tor wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:Do the CS allow people to wander about as they please in PA? Back to my cop and hot rod analogy, if they flag you down and you give them gruff, they'll have you "pop the hood." Impossible to catch everyone, just like in real life.

Makes me wonder how many fights that could start though, a lot of roaming Mercs or Adventureres who could be prospect freelancers for the CS in the future may not wish for such attention.

Gets me going about TW apparentness too. The general description of being 'painted red' for Impervious to Fire or having an air tank for breathe without air, neither seem apparent...

Aside from actually noticing gems which scream TW (any dogs capable of sniffing out gems not in plain view?) I don't know how they'd even know how to find TW equipment if it wasn't active.

Considering that 'duration' in RMB was often measured in shots, I take that to mean that any gun storing a payload is sniffable, so you would have to completely deplete all shots to prevent dog boys from smelling the gun. Same with any PPE/ISP powered engines, would basically have to change to a tech backup propulsion or something or leave it parked.

Not sure if there are options to release the payload without firing though.

Well, TW weapons may not be the best example for this exercise. Most people that use them are already on the non approved list with the CS anyway. Most users would be worried about sneaking themselves around the CS, weapons would be a secondary concern.

I don't think we know enough about the demographics of TW usage to make conclusions like that. Being a minor psychic allows you to use them and the CS doesn't even bother requiring those guys to register with chips.

My guess is the number of minor psychics out there greatly outweighs mages or whatever you're referring to.

I think the TK pistol in psyscape must have its gem internal since otherwise it couldn't look identical to an automatic or energy pistol.

So basically, any automatic SDC pistol out there might actually be an MD-inflicting TW weapon, far as the CS knows, and they have no way of knowing until it's charged and registers as magic.

I thought they could sniff PPE batteries with stalkers and pups.

Alrik Vas wrote:I thought they could sniff PPE batteries with stalkers and pups.

It's my understanding that they can detect a charged TW device, but not an empty TW device. If you don't pump PPE into it until you need it, it shouldn't be detectable to their magic sensing abilities.

Tor wrote:I don't think we know enough about the demographics of TW usage to make conclusions like that. Being a minor psychic allows you to use them and the CS doesn't even bother requiring those guys to register with chips.

My guess is the number of minor psychics out there greatly outweighs mages or whatever you're referring to.

I think the TK pistol in psyscape must have its gem internal since otherwise it couldn't look identical to an automatic or energy pistol.

So basically, any automatic SDC pistol out there might actually be an MD-inflicting TW weapon, far as the CS knows, and they have no way of knowing until it's charged and registers as magic.

Well if we consider demographics then I have to question your conclusion that psychics outnumber mages. As I recall a person can learn magic if they have the aptitude for it. Psychic abilities are inborn so I would think that mages would outnumber psychics. Although for this conversation your point about minor psychics is valid. The other thing that throws off the demographics is that a TW mage can create a weapon for a non psychic or non mage to use that stores its own PPE for usage. Discharging a weapon does drain it and could allow it to be ignored if a person has time for that.

Leo H wrote:Well if we consider demographics then I have to question your conclusion that psychics outnumber mages. As I recall a person can learn magic if they have the aptitude for it. Psychic abilities are inborn so I would think that mages would outnumber psychics.

Old Sourcebook 1 indicated that approx. 10% of the human population in 101 PA had some degree of psychic powers. Nothing published has implied that the number of magic-users across the North American continent is anything close to that.

Proseksword wrote:

Leo H wrote:Well if we consider demographics then I have to question your conclusion that psychics outnumber mages. As I recall a person can learn magic if they have the aptitude for it. Psychic abilities are inborn so I would think that mages would outnumber psychics.

Old Sourcebook 1 indicated that approx. 10% of the human population in 101 PA had some degree of psychic powers. Nothing published has implied that the number of magic-users across the North American continent is anything close to that.

In the words of Sammy Jackson "The absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence." Given the number of magic using communities in North America alone I stand by my statement. If you take those numbers worldwide then the potential for magic users to outnumber psychics increases greatly.

Leo H wrote:

Proseksword wrote:

Leo H wrote:Well if we consider demographics then I have to question your conclusion that psychics outnumber mages. As I recall a person can learn magic if they have the aptitude for it. Psychic abilities are inborn so I would think that mages would outnumber psychics.

Old Sourcebook 1 indicated that approx. 10% of the human population in 101 PA had some degree of psychic powers. Nothing published has implied that the number of magic-users across the North American continent is anything close to that.

In the words of Sammy Jackson "The absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence." Given the number of magic using communities in North America alone I stand by my statement. If you take those numbers worldwide then the potential for magic users to outnumber psychics increases greatly.

Even in those communities, the percentages of the population that are actual mages is still described as low.
And considering that the psychic population is among all humans, and mages are confined to the 'magic using educated segment' of humans. And includes the psychics.
so 10% of your mages are going to be psychics already.
As are 10% of your non-mages, 10% of your farmers, 10% of your wilderness scouts, 10% of your streetrats, 10% of your coalition civilians (in all their millions).......
And then lets look at the sizes of these communities.
Tolkeen, described as one of (if not the) largest kingdom of magic in north America had a total population (pre-war) 890,000 people.
The entire kingdom of Dunscon? less than thirty thousand more people. The society of sages is 187 people.
Apparently the entire combined population of every one of the magical kingdoms and magic using nations in north America added together approaches the total population of the Chi-Town burbs. Firetown, )one of the smaller new-town 'burbs that doesn't make the list of the "major 'burbs") has an orphanage with a population of kids in it (1,700-1,800) that rival that of several of the listed magic cities (compare to Magestar which has a population o f (1,946)

eliakon wrote:

Leo H wrote:

Proseksword wrote:

Leo H wrote:Well if we consider demographics then I have to question your conclusion that psychics outnumber mages. As I recall a person can learn magic if they have the aptitude for it. Psychic abilities are inborn so I would think that mages would outnumber psychics.

Old Sourcebook 1 indicated that approx. 10% of the human population in 101 PA had some degree of psychic powers. Nothing published has implied that the number of magic-users across the North American continent is anything close to that.

In the words of Sammy Jackson "The absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence." Given the number of magic using communities in North America alone I stand by my statement. If you take those numbers worldwide then the potential for magic users to outnumber psychics increases greatly.

Even in those communities, the percentages of the population that are actual mages is still described as low.
And considering that the psychic population is among all humans, and mages are confined to the 'magic using educated segment' of humans. And includes the psychics.
so 10% of your mages are going to be psychics already.
As are 10% of your non-mages, 10% of your farmers, 10% of your wilderness scouts, 10% of your streetrats, 10% of your coalition civilians (in all their millions).......
And then lets look at the sizes of these communities.
Tolkeen, described as one of (if not the) largest kingdom of magic in north America had a total population (pre-war) 890,000 people.
The entire kingdom of Dunscon? less than thirty thousand more people. The society of sages is 187 people.
Apparently the entire combined population of every one of the magical kingdoms and magic using nations in north America added together approaches the total population of the Chi-Town burbs. Firetown, )one of the smaller new-town 'burbs that doesn't make the list of the "major 'burbs") has an orphanage with a population of kids in it (1,700-1,800) that rival that of several of the listed magic cities (compare to Magestar which has a population o f (1,946)

Okay, that does cover North America fairly well. Without better information and with the overlap in population groups I concede the point. So, back to the actual discussion.Many of the people using TW weapons and Naruni gear are going to be on the CS hit list. Sure minor psychics can fly under the radar as long as they see the CS troops ahead of time. Any gear that the CS doesn't consider human technology will be confiscated. By force if necessary as the situation dictates.

Mark Hall wrote:"Hey, the rifle looks funny. I think it's Naruni."
"Shoot to kill."
*furious blasting with much collateral damage*
"Huh. I've never seen one of these before. Steve, you can read, what's it say?"
"Non-lethal Stunmaster, only from Pacifist Arms."
"Must be a Naruni company."

This is how I gm the coalition states check points.

If it looks funny, that's because it is!
SHOOT TO KILL!!

flatline wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:I thought they could sniff PPE batteries with stalkers and pups.

It's my understanding that they can detect a charged TW device, but not an empty TW device. If you don't pump PPE into it until you need it, it shouldn't be detectable to their magic sensing abilities.

However, all it would take is for a CS Dog Boy / Psi-Stalker / Psychic to touch it and they would know it's a TW device. Which could be part of the inspection process depending on how remote the location is, or how thorough the inspectors are.

"Alright, present all y'er weapons for inspection. Pvt Barky, check 'em all."

That wouldn't catch anything being concealed or hidden, but presumably someone on the inspection team would know Detect Concealment making it a battle of skill roles. Or if any inspector has Telepathy, and scans everyone for troublesome thoughts. Neither would be a dead giveaway, but may warrant a closer look by the inspectors.

Leo H wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Leo H wrote:

Proseksword wrote:

Leo H wrote:Well if we consider demographics then I have to question your conclusion that psychics outnumber mages. As I recall a person can learn magic if they have the aptitude for it. Psychic abilities are inborn so I would think that mages would outnumber psychics.

Old Sourcebook 1 indicated that approx. 10% of the human population in 101 PA had some degree of psychic powers. Nothing published has implied that the number of magic-users across the North American continent is anything close to that.

In the words of Sammy Jackson "The absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence." Given the number of magic using communities in North America alone I stand by my statement. If you take those numbers worldwide then the potential for magic users to outnumber psychics increases greatly.

Even in those communities, the percentages of the population that are actual mages is still described as low.
And considering that the psychic population is among all humans, and mages are confined to the 'magic using educated segment' of humans. And includes the psychics.
so 10% of your mages are going to be psychics already.
As are 10% of your non-mages, 10% of your farmers, 10% of your wilderness scouts, 10% of your streetrats, 10% of your coalition civilians (in all their millions).......
And then lets look at the sizes of these communities.
Tolkeen, described as one of (if not the) largest kingdom of magic in north America had a total population (pre-war) 890,000 people.
The entire kingdom of Dunscon? less than thirty thousand more people. The society of sages is 187 people.
Apparently the entire combined population of every one of the magical kingdoms and magic using nations in north America added together approaches the total population of the Chi-Town burbs. Firetown, )one of the smaller new-town 'burbs that doesn't make the list of the "major 'burbs") has an orphanage with a population of kids in it (1,700-1,800) that rival that of several of the listed magic cities (compare to Magestar which has a population o f (1,946)

Okay, that does cover North America fairly well. Without better information and with the overlap in population groups I concede the point. So, back to the actual discussion.Many of the people using TW weapons and Naruni gear are going to be on the CS hit list. Sure minor psychics can fly under the radar as long as they see the CS troops ahead of time. Any gear that the CS doesn't consider human technology will be confiscated. By force if necessary as the situation dictates.

Pretty much. And remember that while adventurers can roam....mechanics and towns can't. Thus that operator that you take your suit to for repairs might turn you in for the reward (what? You didn't think that there would be a reward?) Especially since the alternative is that if it is discovered that it was fixed at his shop then its him and his family that are going to get it, not the players.
That town? Yah they may not want to let people with 'that stuff' in if they know that the CS patrols regularly....

(Heck I had a PC group that ended up doing anti-tech work for the CS. They recovered contraband and turned it in for rewards, and in exchange they were allowed to have weapons, armor, licenced psis.....all sorts of goodies. Sure they had to use only approved gear but hey, being able to call for support from the CS, instead of begging for support against them was a nice perk.)

One other thing I have done is I say that Chipwell gear is on the approved list. It goes a long way to explain the popularity of it. Sure its not quite as good as the top of the line stuff....but if the top of the line stuff is going to get you killed at the hands of the CS, and the Chipwell wont.... then is it really better?

Leo H wrote:Well if we consider demographics then I have to question your conclusion that psychics outnumber mages.

If we consider demographics based on the random tables, even ignoring the master psionic classes it's 25% psychics (1 in 4) being 9% major and 16% minor.

Leo H wrote:As I recall a person can learn magic if they have the aptitude for it.

Doesn't mean they will. I know some dice websites that can calculate probabilities for rolling certain outcomes, we would have to multiply those by each other for each one.

For example, the Mystic needing 9/9/9 for mental attributes seems pretty lax, right? 10.5 is the average so that's BELOW average mental requirements.

Yet... at http://anydice.com/ for output 3d6 'at least' for 9, that is 74.07 percent. You have to cube this, which produces 0.406375048143 so under 41% of the population are capable of becoming Mystics. Course fulfilling an OCC attribute acquirement doesn't mean you want to be that class or can find someone to train you, so we can't really go by that.

eliakon wrote:10% of your mages are going to be psychics already.

For the purposes of this discussion I have to exclude them since the proposed objection was "Most people that use them are already on the non approved list with the CS anyway".

So we have to go with non-mage psychics since mages would be on the CS hit list and not likely to operate in large numbers in CS territory or be able to sneak TW stuff deep into those territories.

I don't think it would put a huge dent in the numbers of minor psychics to subtract the spellcasters though. Unless there's a massive outbreak of witchery, which seems more plausible than any other OCC since all it requires is selling out and not acquiring years of training.

Mack wrote:all it would take is for a CS Dog Boy / Psi-Stalker / Psychic to touch it and they would know it's a TW device.

Where are they described as having this ability?

All I can see being an issue is Object Read, and while enough of them do have it for it to be a problem, it would use a lot of ISP and time and bog up the works.

Tor wrote:

Mack wrote:all it would take is for a CS Dog Boy / Psi-Stalker / Psychic to touch it and they would know it's a TW device.

Where are they described as having this ability?

How does any mage/psychic know a TW device is a TW device? They can sense that PPE/ISP goes into it.

What makes you think mages or psychics can automatically know if something is a TW device?

Odds are they are told what it is by whoever they got it from, or might recognize the design if it's one of the more obvious types rather than one of the more covert ones.

They can throw their PPE/ISP into stuff and then pull the trigger to see if something happened but that doesn't give the the ability to sense a TW device.

Ley line walkers, of course, can sense magic energy, so they could probably detect one that is loaded or in use. Mystics/Shifters not so much.

I think being such a stickler for the RAW is hurting the setting here, Tor. Techno-wizardry creates magical items from technology. Just because something isn't "charged" or "active" doesn't necessarily mean it can't be sniffed because it's still a magic item.

Unless there is something that says TW items aren't magical unless they have PPE charged into them? Truthfully, I understand your point, I see it, don't get me wrong. However, a magic item could be detected. It takes spells to make these items, they have to be cast on them, and they lie there waiting to be used. They're very nature is magical.

Tor wrote:What makes you think mages or psychics can automatically know if something is a TW device?

Aside from all the gemstones and duct tape?

I'm not sure about mages, but psychics "can instantly and intuitively operate devices created through Techno-Wizardry" (RUE, p. 138). So, maybe they don't strictly know that a device is a product of Techno-Wizardry per se, but they know they can use it by channelling their energies into it, which narrows down the possibilities, particularly in North America.

Alrik Vas wrote:Just because something isn't "charged" or "active" doesn't necessarily mean it can't be sniffed because it's still a magic item.

Except that we were explicitly told this from the outset about techno-wizardry...

RMBp89:
"Whenever the device is not in use, it does not radiate magic, because it is not currently empowered by magic. When the device is not in use, it is nothing more than a construct of machine parts and wires".

My interpretation that a charged TW device can be sensed by Psi-Stalkers is actually generosity towards the CS, since we aren't explicitly told this, but I interpret "Duration of Charge" to mean that a magical duration is present.

Alrik Vas wrote:Unless there is something that says TW items aren't magical unless they have PPE charged into them?

We're told they don't radiate magic and that it's nothing more than parts/wires except when in USE. One could read that as "in the middle of firing shots". The idea of it being 'in use' simply storing the shots is my giving the benefit of the doubt to CS anti-TW detection efforts.

Tinker Dragoon wrote:psychics "can instantly and intuitively operate devices created through Techno-Wizardry" (RUE, p. 138). So, maybe they don't strictly know that a device is a product of Techno-Wizardry per se, but they know they can use it by channelling their energies into it, which narrows down the possibilities, particularly in North America.

The ability to operate a class of devices is not the ability to recognize it. Having WP revolver doesn't mean I know there's one hidden inside a teddy bear.

Does the description carry over to RUE? That matters.