Analytical Genius Errata?

[McFacemelt]

My HU2 is first edition. I realize from the teaser he has given, Greg Diacyzk's Hardware Unlimited may address this issue, or it may already be resolved.
Pg. 122 - Analytical genius does not determine education as usual.
Pg. 128 - The following are in addition to Scholastic and Secondary skills <insert list of skills> +1 skill program and 6 secondary skills
Pg. 130 - 2 APM, 5 Scholastic Skills and reduce all skill bonuses by half for another hardware area of expertise.

There are a number of different things I can do to resolve the contradiction of the first two, just hoping someone has something definitive.
The second question concerns the part on pg. 130, do they only get the special skills or do they also get the related skills?

[Razorwing]

Okay... First, let me see if I understand what you are asking.

How does the Analytical Genius resolve the acquisition of a second area of expertise given that they normally do not roll for Education level and thus do not normally have Skill programs to give away for the skills they learn as per the standard rules for most Hardware characters? Is that roughly what you're asking?

You confusion stems from the seemingly contradictory information provided by the skills provided to the Analytical Genius and the special rules under Attacks per melee for acquiring a 2nd area of expertise for this specific sub-class of Hardware characters.

Fist off... your first two points are not contradictory... that list of skills he gets are in addition to the Scholastic Skills and Secondary skills he gets... just that the Schoolastic Skills and Secondary skills are provided at the bottom of the list. It is poorly worded... and should read more like this:

Analytical Genius characters may select 1 Skill Program (Schoolastic Skills) of choice and 6 Secondary Skills; in addition they get the following skills: <insert skill list>. These additional skills should also be considered Scholastic Skills... sort of an expansive Skill Program. So in total, the character gets the listed skills, 1 skill program of choice and 6 secondary skills.

As for the second part of your question, they would get all the skills the second area of expertise would provide... Scholastic and Special Skills. However, all of the Scholastic Skills (both the ones he normally gets and the new ones provided by the 2nd area of expertise) will receive only half of their listed bonus. Additionally, I would suggest ignoring the loss of 5 Scholastic skills and just remove the free Skill program such characters receive (the Skill Program represents a number of Scholastic skills after all, which in most cases is equal to at least 5 skills). Any duplicated skills receive the higher bonus (after reducing it by half). This is in addition to the lost Attacks per Melee (-2 attacks).

As stated in the section, it is something that most Analytical Genius characters will rarely consider doing as it is a huge loss that can not be regained once spent.

I hope this makes some amount of sense to you. I am not sure how "official" any of this may be, but I find that it clears up any confusion I (and my players) have had in the past.

[NMI]

PG 122: Hardware Analytical DO NOT roll for education level just like Ancient Master, Secret Operative, etc...

PG 128: Ignore the line "The following are in addition to..." This is an error/oversight.

PG 130: Instead of dropping the 5 Scholastic skills, drop the 1 program of choice that the class gets. The "reduce skill bonuses in 1/2" refers to things like "Computer Repair +10%", instead this would be Computer Repair +5%. Technically speaking, the skill % bonuses of the 2nd hardware area should also be reduced by 1/2.

You DO NOT roll for the educational level of the 2nd Hardware Area. You only get the bonus skills and special skills.

Say you start with Hardware: Analytical and decide to tack on Hardware: Weapons. [note whether you took "Weapons" first or whatever, you would follow the following]

Note down all of your HA skills reducing their % bonuses by half.
Note down all of the HA special skills [build/modify armor, etc..]
Then note down the HW skills on pg 130.
Then note down the HW special skills on 131.
At the end, when you are figuring out your combat bonuses, subtract 2 APM


This will also get clarified when the new "Hardware Unlimited" manuscripts gets released.

[Razorwing]

Hehe... more or less what I also said... I just didn't know if I was "official" or not.

[13eowulf]

PG 122: Hardware Analytical DO NOT roll for education level just like Ancient Master, Secret Operative, etc...

PG 128: Ignore the line "The following are in addition to..." This is an error/oversight.

PG 130: Instead of dropping the 5 Scholastic skills, drop the 1 program of choice that the class gets. The "reduce skill bonuses in 1/2" refers to things like "Computer Repair +10%", instead this would be Computer Repair +5%. Technically speaking, the skill % bonuses of the 2nd hardware area should also be reduced by 1/2.

You DO NOT roll for the educational level of the 2nd Hardware Area. You only get the bonus skills and special skills.

Say you start with Hardware: Analytical and decide to tack on Hardware: Weapons. [note whether you took "Weapons" first or whatever, you would follow the following]

Note down all of your HA skills reducing their % bonuses by half.
Note down all of the HA special skills [build/modify armor, etc..]
Then note down the HW skills on pg 130.
Then note down the HW special skills on 131.
At the end, when you are figuring out your combat bonuses, subtract 2 APM


This will also get clarified when the new "Hardware Unlimited" manuscripts gets released.

Questions regarding the bolded note:
If you start with Weapons and not Analytical, would you roll for education as normal before adding Analytical since Hardware Weapons does roll for education?

If you start with Hardware Weapons instead of Analytical why are you subtracting 2 APM? The penalties listed under Hardware Weapons are different when choosing a second Hardware area then they are under Analytical, wouldnt those penalties apply instead if that is your 'first' class?

[NMI]

You would effectively flip it around due to Analyticals not rolling education.

The only time you would roll the education AND keep it is:
a. Staying with just Electrical, Mechanical or Weapons
b. Choosing any 2 of Electrical, Mechanical or Weapons.
Toss Analytical into the mix and you go off of the penalties/cost listed with them.

I can tell you that this will change slightly once Hardware Unlimited is released. A more standardized cost across the board will make things a lot easier to understand.

[13eowulf]

You would effectively flip it around due to Analyticals not rolling education.

The only time you would roll the education AND keep it is:
a. Staying with just Electrical, Mechanical or Weapons
b. Choosing any 2 of Electrical, Mechanical or Weapons.
Toss Analytical into the mix and you go off of the penalties/cost listed with them.

I can tell you that this will change slightly once Hardware Unlimited is released. A more standardized cost across the board will make things a lot easier to understand.

No worries, and that is an excellent answer, just what we were looking for.

[The Artist Formerly]

You would effectively flip it around due to Analyticals not rolling education.

The only time you would roll the education AND keep it is:
a. Staying with just Electrical, Mechanical or Weapons
b. Choosing any 2 of Electrical, Mechanical or Weapons.
Toss Analytical into the mix and you go off of the penalties/cost listed with them.

I can tell you that this will change slightly once Hardware Unlimited is released. A more standardized cost across the board will make things a lot easier to understand.

This combo can destroy games. I've used it and I've had it used on me. With a double dip on budgets, you can score enough cash to buy a maximized robot with everything use the robot extra attacks to buy off you penalties, can fix anything going wrong with your robot and add all kinds of tricks for your bot.

[eliakon]

You would effectively flip it around due to Analyticals not rolling education.

The only time you would roll the education AND keep it is:
a. Staying with just Electrical, Mechanical or Weapons
b. Choosing any 2 of Electrical, Mechanical or Weapons.
Toss Analytical into the mix and you go off of the penalties/cost listed with them.

I can tell you that this will change slightly once Hardware Unlimited is released. A more standardized cost across the board will make things a lot easier to understand.

This combo can destroy games. I've used it and I've had it used on me. With a double dip on budgets, you can score enough cash to buy a maximized robot with everything use the robot extra attacks to buy off you penalties, can fix anything going wrong with your robot and add all kinds of tricks for your bot.

Well yes....
If your GM lets you use triple dip, and combine your budgets (since as far as I understand it you only get the skills of the second class not its gear too....), and then shop in another power categories budget yeah you can break the game....
Of course if the GM makes you buy only using the Hardware section and off the shelf tech, one set of gear, and otherwise doesn't hand them the tools to break the game its not a problem.....

[The Artist Formerly]

You would effectively flip it around due to Analyticals not rolling education.

The only time you would roll the education AND keep it is:
a. Staying with just Electrical, Mechanical or Weapons
b. Choosing any 2 of Electrical, Mechanical or Weapons.
Toss Analytical into the mix and you go off of the penalties/cost listed with them.

I can tell you that this will change slightly once Hardware Unlimited is released. A more standardized cost across the board will make things a lot easier to understand.

This combo can destroy games. I've used it and I've had it used on me. With a double dip on budgets, you can score enough cash to buy a maximized robot with everything use the robot extra attacks to buy off you penalties, can fix anything going wrong with your robot and add all kinds of tricks for your bot.

Well yes....
If your GM lets you use triple dip, and combine your budgets (since as far as I understand it you only get the skills of the second class not its gear too....), and then shop in another power categories budget yeah you can break the game....
Of course if the GM makes you buy only using the Hardware section and off the shelf tech, one set of gear, and otherwise doesn't hand them the tools to break the game its not a problem.....

Doesn't say you don't get to double dip. But if a GM says no, take the mechanical genius, if you roll well on starting cash, you're good to go. Twelve million is a pretty good budget for a robot. Or better yet, opt out of the starting budget, build a super invention for the win.

[Razorwing]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that it would destroy a game... at least no more so than it would be to have a Robot in the group.

Okay, even if he lucks out and gets a maximum budget for both Analytical and Mechanical Genius, then yes, he would have a bigger budget than one can get from the Robot Category (by about a half million). Yes, that could allow him to make an impressive robot character, but it isn't actually going to give him any more attacks. Sure, he could create combat drones to do his fighting for him, but then he isn't actually doing the fighting so would he earn experience for their actions? Additionally, without access to a sponsoring organization, the chances of repairing/rebuilding such a unit will be difficult at best.

Now creating a robotic suit or body (to transfer one's intellect into) may give him a superior body... but it won't actually give him any additional attacks either. Again, repairing the robot when it gets damaged (and it will be damaged eventually) may prove difficult.

Lastly, blowing one's budget on such a creation does make the character a bit of a one-trick pony... regardless of how many features that robot may have. One of the greatest strengths Hardware Characters have is having an array of gadgets with which to deal with situations... but this character will be resorting to the same device every time... something many villains will notice and exploit.

In the end however, the character will play a lot like Tony Stark/Iron Man. While many think his armor makes such a character a hero... it is actually his mind and knowledge that does so. There have been many instances in comics when Tony has been stripped of his armor for various reasons... and he still managed to be a hero without it. Perhaps such a "situation" can be arranged for players who decide to go this route. At best, it will show the player that it is the character and not the gadgets that make the hero... and at worst it will make him see the flaw in putting all his eggs in one basket. Either way, the player is likely to rethink how his character is played.

Regardless... a Hardware Character building a robot doesn't "break" the game.

[eliakon]

And I would like to note that This character is super powerful.....
BECAUSE HE IS NOW A MEGA HERO!
He is being allowed to use two power categories. He is both a Hardware character (skills) and a Robot character (powers). You have just made a text book example of a dual class mega-hero. Of course he is going to be mega powerful to the point of near game breaking.....he is a quasi-legal dual (or tri, or quad....)class mega-hero

[The Artist Formerly]

And I would like to note that This character is super powerful.....
BECAUSE HE IS NOW A MEGA HERO!
He is being allowed to use two power categories. He is both a Hardware character (skills) and a Robot character (powers). You have just made a text book example of a dual class mega-hero. Of course he is going to be mega powerful to the point of near game breaking.....he is a quasi-legal dual (or tri, or quad....)class mega-hero

Not RAW. Granted I'm attacking the system to this end but this is technically legal without using the mega option. Which itself is not RAW, BTW.

[eliakon]

And I would like to note that This character is super powerful.....
BECAUSE HE IS NOW A MEGA HERO!
He is being allowed to use two power categories. He is both a Hardware character (skills) and a Robot character (powers). You have just made a text book example of a dual class mega-hero. Of course he is going to be mega powerful to the point of near game breaking.....he is a quasi-legal dual (or tri, or quad....)class mega-hero

Not RAW. Granted I'm attacking the system to this end but this is technically legal without using the mega option. Which itself is not RAW, BTW.

Okay....where is the text that lets anyone besides a Robot Power Category build a Robot? Not 'buy an off the shelf unit' (like in AU) but build a custom suit.

And yes I know that these rules are not ARW (yet) which is even more of why this character is broken.....

[The Artist Formerly]

And I would like to note that This character is super powerful.....
BECAUSE HE IS NOW A MEGA HERO!
He is being allowed to use two power categories. He is both a Hardware character (skills) and a Robot character (powers). You have just made a text book example of a dual class mega-hero. Of course he is going to be mega powerful to the point of near game breaking.....he is a quasi-legal dual (or tri, or quad....)class mega-hero

Not RAW. Granted I'm attacking the system to this end but this is technically legal without using the mega option. Which itself is not RAW, BTW.

Okay....where is the text that lets anyone besides a Robot Power Category build a Robot? Not 'buy an off the shelf unit' (like in AU) but build a custom suit.

And yes I know that these rules are not ARW (yet) which is even more of why this character is broken.....

HU 2E, Analytical Genius, page 130. The sentence just above the budget table. You can build either a robot or a super vehicle. Single dip format, you still get the Mechanical's more impressive budget with the Analytical's abilities and options. Double dip, well, you get even more. And you should be able to build a robot and nice car. Plus you don't eat the -40% on your robot skill checks.

But if you don't like that, separate from that, PU 2 page 67, Super Invention, who is the character question, 1-30, the inventor. If an inventor, (PU 2 page 70), roll up as a mechanical or electrical genius, but without any of the budget or gear. Use the additional expertise option, for the analytical genius. In this option you would be giving up three attacks to buy super powers that you can recreate. Like powers that give you attacks. Built it into a battle armor system for even more fun. Hey, the Analytical has a duplicate tech option... Huh.

So, two ways to get that done.

[eliakon]

And I would like to note that This character is super powerful.....
BECAUSE HE IS NOW A MEGA HERO!
He is being allowed to use two power categories. He is both a Hardware character (skills) and a Robot character (powers). You have just made a text book example of a dual class mega-hero. Of course he is going to be mega powerful to the point of near game breaking.....he is a quasi-legal dual (or tri, or quad....)class mega-hero

Not RAW. Granted I'm attacking the system to this end but this is technically legal without using the mega option. Which itself is not RAW, BTW.

Okay....where is the text that lets anyone besides a Robot Power Category build a Robot? Not 'buy an off the shelf unit' (like in AU) but build a custom suit.

And yes I know that these rules are not ARW (yet) which is even more of why this character is broken.....

HU 2E, Analytical Genius, page 130. The sentence just above the budget table. You can build either a robot or a super vehicle. Single dip format, you still get the Mechanical's more impressive budget with the Analytical's abilities and options. Double dip, well, you get even more. And you should be able to build a robot and nice car. Plus you don't eat the -40% on your robot skill checks.

Which is cool....but it still doesn't say that you are allowed to actually use the robot section. I will concede that it could be interpreted to allow that if the GM wishes to allow you to double dip (since you would need a house rule to allow you to get the budget from your second class as that is equipment not skills). But if your GM does allow this then I would point just as quickly to A.U pg 189-190
which first of says what an exo-skeleton is (which is what is said to be allowed, not full combat robots) and two makes very clear that the privilege of getting such devices outside of the Robot Power Category is a GM option. SO sure if the GM grants you extra money, then allows you the privilege of spending that money to buy another character classes signature items then you might have a problem.....Sounds like a GM problem not a game problem.

But if you don't like that, separate from that, PU 2 page 67, Super Invention, who is the character question, 1-30, the inventor. If an inventor, (PU 2 page 70), roll up as a mechanical or electrical genius, but without any of the budget or gear. Use the additional expertise option, for the analytical genius. In this option you would be giving up three attacks to buy super powers that you can recreate. Like powers that give you attacks. Built it into a battle armor system for even more fun. Hey, the Analytical has a duplicate tech option... Huh.

Again you have to get a second budget. A budget that from my reading you don't get. Also note that you are NOT a Hardware character you are a Super Invention character. Thus the privilege of taking a second selection (Analytical) would have to be an option that the GM chooses to allow you to use.

So yes. if your GM changes how the Invention Category works, then changes how the Hardware Category works, then changes how the Super-Invention rules works, and chooses to allow people access to robots.....

In short no, I have no pity at all for GMs who make massive house rule changes to the game, and then say that the changes prove that the game is broken. The game isn't broken, their house rules broke it.

So, two ways to get that done.

I would also like to point out that neither of these two ways allows you to take the skill Pilot: Robot Vehicles.
This skill is exclusive to the Robot Category in HU. Which sort of makes it impossible for your double dipping hardware pilot to USE their armor RAW. (Sure you can house rule the skill in....but again that's yet another house rule being added to allow this character to get around the limits.)

[Regularguy]

I would also like to point out that neither of these two ways allows you to take the skill Pilot: Robot Vehicles.
This skill is exclusive to the Robot Category in HU. Which sort of makes it impossible for your double dipping hardware pilot to USE their armor RAW. (Sure you can house rule the skill in....but again that's yet another house rule being added to allow this character to get around the limits.)

Not sure you need to house rule that skill in; doesn't the Analytical Genius already have Analyze and Operate Devices, which (a) lets him "operate a pair of Russian nightvision goggles, a Chinese fighter jet, an alien power engine, or anything in between" and (b) explicitly "includes robot vehicles and exoskeletons"?

[eliakon]

I would also like to point out that neither of these two ways allows you to take the skill Pilot: Robot Vehicles.
This skill is exclusive to the Robot Category in HU. Which sort of makes it impossible for your double dipping hardware pilot to USE their armor RAW. (Sure you can house rule the skill in....but again that's yet another house rule being added to allow this character to get around the limits.)

Not sure you need to house rule that skill in; doesn't the Analytical Genius already have Analyze and Operate Devices, which (a) lets him "operate a pair of Russian nightvision goggles, a Chinese fighter jet, an alien power engine, or anything in between" and (b) explicitly "includes robot vehicles and exoskeletons"?

how to use it, to me, is not the same as "Omni-Skill"
Though I guess if you like ultra-high powered games sure, you can allow this one skill to substitute for every other Mechanical/Electrical/Pilot/Pilot Related/otherwise technological, item or device related skill whatsoever.
But I don't see it that way.
I see it as "you can figure out how to turn it on and off and make it go" not "and then you can fly it just as well, if not better than any trained pilot"

[Razorwing]

Talk about making a mountain out of a non-issue.

Why does it matter if the hardware character can build a robotic Exoskeleton? They are technical geniuses after all? Just because the robotic suit he wears technically falls under a different power category it has to be considered off limits? By that reasoning Mutants shouldn't get Psychic powers (as Psionics are their own category and you can't mix catagories).

Simple fact is, many categories do overlap. You have Experiments with cybernetics, Mutants with Psionics, hell... practically every Special Training sub-category uses gadgets to one degree or another... infringing on the Hardware character's area of expertise.

The difference between a Hardware character building his own suit of robotic armor and a Mega-Hero Dual Class Hardware/Robotics character is in the penalties. The Hardware character who does it without being a Mega Hero has to give up a fair number of skill choices (as he may need to take a second specialty to do so) and suffers from having to give up 2(or more) attacks per melee. Additionally he has to work within a limited budget.

Meanwhile the Mega-Hero Hardware/Robotic character doesn't have to give up any skills (save for those to just be a Hardware character), he doesn't have to take a second Hardware specialty and gets not only the budget for the robotics character, but has that increased by 50%. Beyond that... his equipment is going to be a fair bit superior to the non Mega character... his weapons will have 50% greater range and his armor will have 50% more SDC... without costing him extra. Even if the non-Mega version got the maximum on both budgets for Analytical and Mechanical, the Mega Hero would likely still out budget him with just the Robotic budget alone (15.5 million +50% = 23.25 million compared to the non-Mega's 16 million), but the Mega is likely to get the budget from his Hardware too (so add another 6 million for that robot... or 24 million if the Mega decided to take 2 Hardware specialties as well).

So maxed out, the non-Mega character could have a potential budget of 16 million to build a robotic suit... provided he was willing to take two specialties with the penalties that involved. Meanwhile a Mega Hardware/Robotics dual class could have a maximum budget of almost 30 million without needing to take a second Hardware specialty. Additionally the Mega's suit will be naturally more powerful even if he limited himself to the same budget as the non-mega (split his budget to make 2 suits with 15 million each) as it would have greater weapon range and SDC.

As for the idea that either of these characters are "broken"... well that simply isn't true. Yes, they have put a lot of their resources into their "suits", but that really is no different than a Mechanical Hardware character putting all of his resources into a single vehicle (that he is probably going to have to leave parked outside when invading the bad-guy's lair). Sure, he can take that suit nearly anywhere he could go before, but it isn't indestructible... repairs are going to take time, parts and money... all of which likely can't be done in the middle of a mission.

Tony Stark/Iron Man is a perfect example of a Hardware character with a Robotic Exoskeleton Suit. Yes, he relies on it heavily when in combat situation... but it isn't what makes him a hero... it is his mind and skills. He has solved as many problems with his creative thinking and technical know-how as he has with his armor. With or without the suit... he is still a hero... and so would either of these characters (though the Mega is probably more likely to rely on his "superior" armor than the non-Mega is).

Hmmm... actually, this gives me a rather interesting idea for a pair of characters... two rival inventors. One is a multi-billionaire (a Mega Hero)... the other has only managed to scrape together a few million here and there (not a Mega Hero). Both build comparable robotic armor suits (perhaps they were once friends and discussed the idea of such a suit). Now while one is considerably "superior" in many ways, it is also likely to have some serious weaknesses too... while the "inferior" one is arguably more reliable as it doesn't have the same flaws. Both start out as heroes, but as time goes on, the rivalry between the two is likely to boil over at some point... the question is... which one will cross the line? Okay... now I think I'm going to have to write these two up... but I will put them in a different thread so as not to derail this any further.

[Nightmask]

I would also like to point out that neither of these two ways allows you to take the skill Pilot: Robot Vehicles.
This skill is exclusive to the Robot Category in HU. Which sort of makes it impossible for your double dipping hardware pilot to USE their armor RAW. (Sure you can house rule the skill in....but again that's yet another house rule being added to allow this character to get around the limits.)

Not sure you need to house rule that skill in; doesn't the Analytical Genius already have Analyze and Operate Devices, which (a) lets him "operate a pair of Russian nightvision goggles, a Chinese fighter jet, an alien power engine, or anything in between" and (b) explicitly "includes robot vehicles and exoskeletons"?

how to use it, to me, is not the same as "Omni-Skill"
Though I guess if you like ultra-high powered games sure, you can allow this one skill to substitute for every other Mechanical/Electrical/Pilot/Pilot Related/otherwise technological, item or device related skill whatsoever.
But I don't see it that way.
I see it as "you can figure out how to turn it on and off and make it go" not "and then you can fly it just as well, if not better than any trained pilot"

What makes you think piloting isn't part of what using it means when you're talking about being able to use a suit of power armor? Because the analytical's ability certainly qualifies as an omni-skill, working as piloting skill if you make a successful check to analyze a vehicle including a robot or power armor because you certainly can't say piloting it isn't part of operating it.

[eliakon]

I would also like to point out that neither of these two ways allows you to take the skill Pilot: Robot Vehicles.
This skill is exclusive to the Robot Category in HU. Which sort of makes it impossible for your double dipping hardware pilot to USE their armor RAW. (Sure you can house rule the skill in....but again that's yet another house rule being added to allow this character to get around the limits.)

Not sure you need to house rule that skill in; doesn't the Analytical Genius already have Analyze and Operate Devices, which (a) lets him "operate a pair of Russian nightvision goggles, a Chinese fighter jet, an alien power engine, or anything in between" and (b) explicitly "includes robot vehicles and exoskeletons"?

how to use it, to me, is not the same as "Omni-Skill"
Though I guess if you like ultra-high powered games sure, you can allow this one skill to substitute for every other Mechanical/Electrical/Pilot/Pilot Related/otherwise technological, item or device related skill whatsoever.
But I don't see it that way.
I see it as "you can figure out how to turn it on and off and make it go" not "and then you can fly it just as well, if not better than any trained pilot"

What makes you think piloting isn't part of what using it means when you're talking about being able to use a suit of power armor? Because the analytical's ability certainly qualifies as an omni-skill, working as piloting skill if you make a successful check to analyze a vehicle including a robot or power armor because you certainly can't say piloting it isn't part of operating it.

I reject the idea that its an onmi-skill because the class comes with a large number of the other skills. And they have lower percentages. The idea that a large number of your skill selections are actually wasted space because they have all been replaced by one skill that replaces some 50+ others....to me does not hold water in the slightest.

[Nightmask]

I would also like to point out that neither of these two ways allows you to take the skill Pilot: Robot Vehicles.
This skill is exclusive to the Robot Category in HU. Which sort of makes it impossible for your double dipping hardware pilot to USE their armor RAW. (Sure you can house rule the skill in....but again that's yet another house rule being added to allow this character to get around the limits.)

Not sure you need to house rule that skill in; doesn't the Analytical Genius already have Analyze and Operate Devices, which (a) lets him "operate a pair of Russian nightvision goggles, a Chinese fighter jet, an alien power engine, or anything in between" and (b) explicitly "includes robot vehicles and exoskeletons"?

how to use it, to me, is not the same as "Omni-Skill"
Though I guess if you like ultra-high powered games sure, you can allow this one skill to substitute for every other Mechanical/Electrical/Pilot/Pilot Related/otherwise technological, item or device related skill whatsoever.
But I don't see it that way.
I see it as "you can figure out how to turn it on and off and make it go" not "and then you can fly it just as well, if not better than any trained pilot"

What makes you think piloting isn't part of what using it means when you're talking about being able to use a suit of power armor? Because the analytical's ability certainly qualifies as an omni-skill, working as piloting skill if you make a successful check to analyze a vehicle including a robot or power armor because you certainly can't say piloting it isn't part of operating it.

I reject the idea that its an onmi-skill because the class comes with a large number of the other skills. And they have lower percentages. The idea that a large number of your skill selections are actually wasted space because they have all been replaced by one skill that replaces some 50+ others....to me does not hold water in the slightest.

You can dislike it all you want doesn't make it any less than what it is, an omni-skill with regards to being able to analyze and use technology which means things that require a piloting skill it becomes a piloting skill. That's basic common sense, since to use a jet you have to be able to among other things pilot it, same goes with a robot or power armor. It's the perk for being a Hardware: Analytical, you excel at that kind of thing, one of their 'super-powers' as it were.

Nothing about it makes the majority of your skill selections wasted space, it makes skills that overlap with it redundant but that's how it goes. It's also not making actual piloting skills worthless, by a strict reading of the Hardware: Analytical's skill you've have to pass a skill check for learning how to pilot any specific vehicle or power armor, whereas someone with say Pilot: Fighter Jet can pilot ALL Fighter Jets the analytical can only pilot a particular plane after he successfully makes his check with that particular model of jet and won't let him pilot a different model unless he makes another check.

[Razorwing]

I've been looking over the Robot Section... specifically the skills that a robot pilot receives. The special skill Pilot Robot Vehicles does more than let the pilot operate the specific robot the player creates... it allows the character to pilot ANY robotic vehicle.

What this means is that not only does the Robot Pilot know how to pilot his robot, but he could pilot the one that a villain or another hero might have. It is a far more expansive skill than just piloting a specific vehicle. Okay, yes there is a stiff penalty for trying to operate a robotic vehicle of alien origin, but that isn't exactly new.

So, what does this mean for a Hardware character who (though luck) has enough of a budget to build his own robotic vehicle? It simply means that without this or a comparable skill, he will only be able to pilot the robotic vehicle he makes (he made it so he should be able to make it work). The idea that the inventor of an invention being unable to use that invention is... to put it bluntly... ridiculous.

Look at what Tony Stark had to go through in the first Iron Man movie (and even in the comics to a lesser degree) to work the armor he invented to save his life. Yes, his original prototype was crude and barely functional... and it had more than a few glitches he would later improve upon. Beyond that were his rather hilarious attempts at using the repulsor technology he created for flight and other functions. It took him a while to figure everything out, but he did figure it out. This is very much what an Analytical Genius does with his Analyze and Operate Devices skill... he analyzes the device and figures out how to operate it... whether it be a toaster, a sonic screwdriver or a robotic suit of armor. Yes, it may take time to figure everything out... especially if he trying to integrate multiple systems into a single device (or analyzing a device with multiple functions), but he will learn how to operate it.

Is this breaking the system, taking advantage of it or merely thinking outside of the box? That is a choice that every GM has to decide for themselves. All I can say is that it would be a shame not to let a player clever enough to come up with such a concept for their character to at least try it out and see if it is as unbalancing as it might appear. Yes, I can imagine some players taking this to an extreme and using every loophole they can to build an unstoppable character... but this is one case where I think that the reality is not nearly as bad as people think it will be.

[Razorwing]

Found a ruling in the HU: GM's Guide about Hardware Characters that take additional areas of Expertise... they do get the budget from both subcategories. However, it does state that these budgets "should" not be combined and spent separately. Page 12 for anyone who wants to see.

[The Artist Formerly]

Which is cool....but it still doesn't say that you are allowed to actually use the robot section. I will concede that it could be interpreted to allow that if the GM wishes to allow you to double dip (since you would need a house rule to allow you to get the budget from your second class as that is equipment not skills). But if your GM does allow this then I would point just as quickly to A.U pg 189-190
which first of says what an exo-skeleton is (which is what is said to be allowed, not full combat robots) and two makes very clear that the privilege of getting such devices outside of the Robot Power Category is a GM option. SO sure if the GM grants you extra money, then allows you the privilege of spending that money to buy another character classes signature items then you might have a problem.....Sounds like a GM problem not a game problem.

Uh... What? It says you can build a super vehicle or a exo-skeleton. That's RAW. And as I pointed out, you can just use the Mech Genius' budget, then Analytical's expertise (a function of the skill) to gain access to robot build.

Again you have to get a second budget. A budget that from my reading you don't get. Also note that you are NOT a Hardware character you are a Super Invention character. Thus the privilege of taking a second selection (Analytical) would have to be an option that the GM chooses to allow you to use.

So yes. if your GM changes how the Invention Category works, then changes how the Hardware Category works, then changes how the Super-Invention rules works, and chooses to allow people access to robots.....

You don't get a budget with this choice. You don't need one. You get a machine or machines that grant super powers as a mech genius which, you roll up as normal. Normal includes the extra skill package in exchange for attacks. But now you have super tech that is your invention, which you can duplicate, fairly easily. That's just what the rules say.

I would also like to point out that neither of these two ways allows you to take the skill Pilot: Robot Vehicles.
This skill is exclusive to the Robot Category in HU. Which sort of makes it impossible for your double dipping hardware pilot to USE their armor RAW. (Sure you can house rule the skill in....but again that's yet another house rule being added to allow this character to get around the limits.)

Analyze operate. Page 129, How to use it: -15% Robotics or Bionics, includes robot vehicles and exoskeletons.

[The Artist Formerly]

Found a ruling in the HU: GM's Guide about Hardware Characters that take additional areas of Expertise... they do get the budget from both subcategories. However, it does state that these budgets "should" not be combined and spent separately. Page 12 for anyone who wants to see.

Good catch. I stand corrected.

Edit: Though I do notice that the Mech Genius can choose either aircraft Mechanics or Robot Mechanics. I wonder why that is...

[Razorwing]

Found a ruling in the HU: GM's Guide about Hardware Characters that take additional areas of Expertise... they do get the budget from both subcategories. However, it does state that these budgets "should" not be combined and spent separately. Page 12 for anyone who wants to see.

Good catch. I stand corrected.

Edit: Though I do notice that the Mech Genius can choose either aircraft Mechanics or Robot Mechanics. I wonder why that is...

Some may want to work on Aircraft (including space ships) rather than robots (which, if you don't also have Robot Electronics are rather difficult to build... actually they are difficult to build even if you have both).

[The Artist Formerly]

Found a ruling in the HU: GM's Guide about Hardware Characters that take additional areas of Expertise... they do get the budget from both subcategories. However, it does state that these budgets "should" not be combined and spent separately. Page 12 for anyone who wants to see.

Good catch. I stand corrected.

Edit: Though I do notice that the Mech Genius can choose either aircraft Mechanics or Robot Mechanics. I wonder why that is...

Some may want to work on Aircraft (including space ships) rather than robots (which, if you don't also have Robot Electronics are rather difficult to build... actually they are difficult to build even if you have both).

But if the focus of the character is building super vehicles, then why have the robot skill?

[Nightmask]

Found a ruling in the HU: GM's Guide about Hardware Characters that take additional areas of Expertise... they do get the budget from both subcategories. However, it does state that these budgets "should" not be combined and spent separately. Page 12 for anyone who wants to see.

Good catch. I stand corrected.

Edit: Though I do notice that the Mech Genius can choose either aircraft Mechanics or Robot Mechanics. I wonder why that is...

Some may want to work on Aircraft (including space ships) rather than robots (which, if you don't also have Robot Electronics are rather difficult to build... actually they are difficult to build even if you have both).

But if the focus of the character is building super vehicles, then why have the robot skill?

Because there are robot vehicles, and the Hardware: Mechanical sorts deal with ALL vehicles including Robot vehicles.

[eliakon]

Which is cool....but it still doesn't say that you are allowed to actually use the robot section. I will concede that it could be interpreted to allow that if the GM wishes to allow you to double dip (since you would need a house rule to allow you to get the budget from your second class as that is equipment not skills). But if your GM does allow this then I would point just as quickly to A.U pg 189-190
which first of says what an exo-skeleton is (which is what is said to be allowed, not full combat robots) and two makes very clear that the privilege of getting such devices outside of the Robot Power Category is a GM option. SO sure if the GM grants you extra money, then allows you the privilege of spending that money to buy another character classes signature items then you might have a problem.....Sounds like a GM problem not a game problem.

Uh... What? It says you can build a super vehicle or a exo-skeleton. That's RAW. And as I pointed out, you can just use the Mech Genius' budget, then Analytical's expertise (a function of the skill) to gain access to robot build.

I was pointing out that the game calls some things exo-skeletons. Thus the ability to build an exo-skeleton does NOT mean you can build all kinds of robot vehicles.

Again you have to get a second budget. A budget that from my reading you don't get. Also note that you are NOT a Hardware character you are a Super Invention character. Thus the privilege of taking a second selection (Analytical) would have to be an option that the GM chooses to allow you to use.

So yes. if your GM changes how the Invention Category works, then changes how the Hardware Category works, then changes how the Super-Invention rules works, and chooses to allow people access to robots.....

You don't get a budget with this choice. You don't need one. You get a machine or machines that grant super powers as a mech genius which, you roll up as normal. Normal includes the extra skill package in exchange for attacks.

You roll up your skills as per the hardware. I would say that the 'trade stuff for a second class' is not in the skills part of the class and thus would be out of bounds. You can make what ever ruling you want though, but I just don't see it. Your not making a full Hardware with a special toy, your just using their skills.

But now you have super tech that is your invention, which you can duplicate, fairly easily. That's just what the rules say.

I think we have different books....because my copy of PU2 says that the super inventions are one of a kind prototypes AND that you roll for the repair. It does not say that its easily duplicated. Sure your GM can allow you to easily duplicate it if he wants to. But again, that isn't the RAW. Yes you 'understand the tech' but I note that there is nothing in the thing that says that they can be duplicated. Which is really important because if it was easily duplicate able you would need a price to build. But there is nothing at all on doing so. Unless we get some new rules in some other book this would be a total house rule....and again the results of house rules are on the GM implementing them not the game system that they are implemented in.

I would also like to point out that neither of these two ways allows you to take the skill Pilot: Robot Vehicles.
This skill is exclusive to the Robot Category in HU. Which sort of makes it impossible for your double dipping hardware pilot to USE their armor RAW. (Sure you can house rule the skill in....but again that's yet another house rule being added to allow this character to get around the limits.)

Analyze operate. Page 129, How to use it: -15% Robotics or Bionics, includes robot vehicles and exoskeletons.

We are going to have a disagreement here then. I refuse to believe that the skill is a really "Take some 80+ Including all the special skills of at least 5 other power categories skills at 80% +2% per level"
I maintain that it would allow a limited use of an item. But it is not intended to be a substitute for all those 80+.
Or are we seriously saying that an analytical genius with a good IQ roll automatically gets over 100 skills at 98% at first level? Because that seems to be the argument here. And if that is the case then we seem to be playing such different games that I really don't think that there is going to be any possibility of discussion.
I maintain that, for instance. It would allow (after sufficient time spent studying) a chance (one time roll) to figure out one specific suit of armor. If you make that roll then you could pilot that suit. And yes, I would require the roll for a suit you yourself build. You don't have the pilot robots skill, so you have to try and figure it out. You don't get the robot-combat skill at all, and you would need the actual weapons systems skill to fire the weapons with bonuses, though you could make a roll, per weapon, to figure it out.
Its not instant, its not free, and it doesn't come with fringe benefits. Its just that if you spend enough time studying a machine you can puzzle out how to use that specific machine. And with even more study maybe how to fix that one machine.

[Nightmask]

I would also like to point out that neither of these two ways allows you to take the skill Pilot: Robot Vehicles.
This skill is exclusive to the Robot Category in HU. Which sort of makes it impossible for your double dipping hardware pilot to USE their armor RAW. (Sure you can house rule the skill in....but again that's yet another house rule being added to allow this character to get around the limits.)

Analyze operate. Page 129, How to use it: -15% Robotics or Bionics, includes robot vehicles and exoskeletons.

We are going to have a disagreement here then. I refuse to believe that the skill is a really "Take some 80+ Including all the special skills of at least 5 other power categories skills at 80% +2% per level"
I maintain that it would allow a limited use of an item. But it is not intended to be a substitute for all those 80+.
Or are we seriously saying that an analytical genius with a good IQ roll automatically gets over 100 skills at 98% at first level? Because that seems to be the argument here. And if that is the case then we seem to be playing such different games that I really don't think that there is going to be any possibility of discussion.
I maintain that, for instance. It would allow (after sufficient time spent studying) a chance (one time roll) to figure out one specific suit of armor. If you make that roll then you could pilot that suit. And yes, I would require the roll for a suit you yourself build. You don't have the pilot robots skill, so you have to try and figure it out. You don't get the robot-combat skill at all, and you would need the actual weapons systems skill to fire the weapons with bonuses, though you could make a roll, per weapon, to figure it out.
Its not instant, its not free, and it doesn't come with fringe benefits. Its just that if you spend enough time studying a machine you can puzzle out how to use that specific machine. And with even more study maybe how to fix that one machine.

Refusing to accept what's written by no means will change it so it no longer means what it means. It still means what it means. It also doesn't mean the strawman you're ascribing to it because it's not replacing 80+ skills, it's providing specific ability to use the particular device in question that's been successfully analyzed as if they had a skill in that particular device at the percentage of the Analyze and Operate Devices success percentage. If anything someone with the Robot category is getting a skill (Pilot Robots and Power Armor) that's an omni-skill since it lets them pilot any robot or power armor whereas the Hardware: Analytical has to check and spend time studying EVERY robot, power armor, or other vehicle he hasn't got a skill in in order to learn how to operate it like someone with the general skill.

[eliakon]

I would also like to point out that neither of these two ways allows you to take the skill Pilot: Robot Vehicles.
This skill is exclusive to the Robot Category in HU. Which sort of makes it impossible for your double dipping hardware pilot to USE their armor RAW. (Sure you can house rule the skill in....but again that's yet another house rule being added to allow this character to get around the limits.)

Analyze operate. Page 129, How to use it: -15% Robotics or Bionics, includes robot vehicles and exoskeletons.

We are going to have a disagreement here then. I refuse to believe that the skill is a really "Take some 80+ Including all the special skills of at least 5 other power categories skills at 80% +2% per level"
I maintain that it would allow a limited use of an item. But it is not intended to be a substitute for all those 80+.
Or are we seriously saying that an analytical genius with a good IQ roll automatically gets over 100 skills at 98% at first level? Because that seems to be the argument here. And if that is the case then we seem to be playing such different games that I really don't think that there is going to be any possibility of discussion.
I maintain that, for instance. It would allow (after sufficient time spent studying) a chance (one time roll) to figure out one specific suit of armor. If you make that roll then you could pilot that suit. And yes, I would require the roll for a suit you yourself build. You don't have the pilot robots skill, so you have to try and figure it out. You don't get the robot-combat skill at all, and you would need the actual weapons systems skill to fire the weapons with bonuses, though you could make a roll, per weapon, to figure it out.
Its not instant, its not free, and it doesn't come with fringe benefits. Its just that if you spend enough time studying a machine you can puzzle out how to use that specific machine. And with even more study maybe how to fix that one machine.

Refusing to accept what's written by no means will change it so it no longer means what it means. It still means what it means. It also doesn't mean the strawman you're ascribing to it because it's not replacing 80+ skills, it's providing specific ability to use the particular device in question that's been successfully analyzed as if they had a skill in that particular device at the percentage of the Analyze and Operate Devices success percentage. If anything someone with the Robot category is getting a skill (Pilot Robots and Power Armor) that's an omni-skill since it lets them pilot any robot or power armor whereas the Hardware: Analytical has to check and spend time studying EVERY robot, power armor, or other vehicle he hasn't got a skill in in order to learn how to operate it like someone with the general skill.

Its not a straw man. Those 80+ skills ARE being replaced if you can simply use this one skill to pilot anything (there are a couple dozen skills right there that are being replaced) Especially if the time is being waived.

And I am not refusing to accept what is written. I am refusing to accept this interpretation of it. I am arguing that what it says is one thing, and not another thing. Unless you can provide a clear, unambiguous statement of 'this is what it means' then your interpretation is not the One True Meaning and is thus still up for debate.

I am saying that it can not be used as an Omni-skill. That it does not simply mean that they can use this skill instead of the (unavailable) robot piloting/robot combat skills. I am saying that you have to use it as it was written. To analyze one specific device. and then try to understand that one device and use it (I would say in some limited ways. You can fly that Russian airplane back to base...that doesn't mean you can do an air-to-air battle with it).

[NMI]

Found a ruling in the HU: GM's Guide about Hardware Characters that take additional areas of Expertise... they do get the budget from both subcategories. However, it does state that these budgets "should" not be combined and spent separately. Page 12 for anyone who wants to see.

Good catch. I stand corrected.

Edit: Though I do notice that the Mech Genius can choose either aircraft Mechanics or Robot Mechanics. I wonder why that is...

Some may want to work on Aircraft (including space ships) rather than robots (which, if you don't also have Robot Electronics are rather difficult to build... actually they are difficult to build even if you have both).

But if the focus of the character is building super vehicles, then why have the robot skill?

For those who might want a Robotic Camaro or other robotic type vehicles. Alien-infestation power loaders, early renditions of the SAMAS?

[Nightmask]

I would also like to point out that neither of these two ways allows you to take the skill Pilot: Robot Vehicles.
This skill is exclusive to the Robot Category in HU. Which sort of makes it impossible for your double dipping hardware pilot to USE their armor RAW. (Sure you can house rule the skill in....but again that's yet another house rule being added to allow this character to get around the limits.)

Analyze operate. Page 129, How to use it: -15% Robotics or Bionics, includes robot vehicles and exoskeletons.

We are going to have a disagreement here then. I refuse to believe that the skill is a really "Take some 80+ Including all the special skills of at least 5 other power categories skills at 80% +2% per level"
I maintain that it would allow a limited use of an item. But it is not intended to be a substitute for all those 80+.
Or are we seriously saying that an analytical genius with a good IQ roll automatically gets over 100 skills at 98% at first level? Because that seems to be the argument here. And if that is the case then we seem to be playing such different games that I really don't think that there is going to be any possibility of discussion.
I maintain that, for instance. It would allow (after sufficient time spent studying) a chance (one time roll) to figure out one specific suit of armor. If you make that roll then you could pilot that suit. And yes, I would require the roll for a suit you yourself build. You don't have the pilot robots skill, so you have to try and figure it out. You don't get the robot-combat skill at all, and you would need the actual weapons systems skill to fire the weapons with bonuses, though you could make a roll, per weapon, to figure it out.
Its not instant, its not free, and it doesn't come with fringe benefits. Its just that if you spend enough time studying a machine you can puzzle out how to use that specific machine. And with even more study maybe how to fix that one machine.

Refusing to accept what's written by no means will change it so it no longer means what it means. It still means what it means. It also doesn't mean the strawman you're ascribing to it because it's not replacing 80+ skills, it's providing specific ability to use the particular device in question that's been successfully analyzed as if they had a skill in that particular device at the percentage of the Analyze and Operate Devices success percentage. If anything someone with the Robot category is getting a skill (Pilot Robots and Power Armor) that's an omni-skill since it lets them pilot any robot or power armor whereas the Hardware: Analytical has to check and spend time studying EVERY robot, power armor, or other vehicle he hasn't got a skill in in order to learn how to operate it like someone with the general skill.

Its not a straw man. Those 80+ skills ARE being replaced if you can simply use this one skill to pilot anything (there are a couple dozen skills right there that are being replaced) Especially if the time is being waived.

And I am not refusing to accept what is written. I am refusing to accept this interpretation of it. I am arguing that what it says is one thing, and not another thing. Unless you can provide a clear, unambiguous statement of 'this is what it means' then your interpretation is not the One True Meaning and is thus still up for debate.

I am saying that it can not be used as an Omni-skill. That it does not simply mean that they can use this skill instead of the (unavailable) robot piloting/robot combat skills. I am saying that you have to use it as it was written. To analyze one specific device. and then try to understand that one device and use it (I would say in some limited ways. You can fly that Russian airplane back to base...that doesn't mean you can do an air-to-air battle with it).

Except you're wrong, the skill explicitly provides the ability to operate anything that you successfully make the check to learn. Something you keep ignoring. It does NOT say that you only get limited usefulness of anything you've analyzed, it says you can operate the device without giving any restriction beyond it being limited by your Analyze and Operate Devices percentage. So yes, it means you can indeed use it as a stand-in for the generic robot piloting skill PROVIDED you actually make your analysis check for that particular robot, just as it would let you pilot that Russian fighter jet in all situations including combat with full effectiveness. That seems to be one of the key points you're ignoring, it does not provide you the ability to pilot all of a particular category of something just because you've passed your check on one item, you have to study how to pilot each individual vehicle because the Analyze and Operate Devices special ability doesn't give you generic piloting/operation skill but a specific skill with that particular item. You analyze the Crimson Dynamo's armor and you can pilot it just fine but you aren't going to hop into Titanium Man's armor and pilot it too, you'll have to analyze it just like you did CD's armor. Which also means you can build your own custom power armor/robot vehicle and pilot it just fine even if you don't have the generic skill to let you handle all power armor/robot vehicles. It's a key aspect of what makes the Hardware: Analytical so awesome and why it operates under the restrictions it does. It sacrifices a lot of other things to be able to do those things.