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Although Dinosaur Swamp mentions this is done, in the bit that talks about it I can only see it discussing doing this to briefly blind/frustrate them to allow for taking them down with more reliable attacks. Kind of like we can get an eyelash in our eye and it messes us up without causing permanent damage but it's still and irritant and we need to water it out before becoming effective again.

While this is a plausible tactic for giving them penalties and then being able to more safely close range, or perhaps herd them into traps, I recall someone mentioning some bit about being able to shoot them in their SDC brain through their SDC eye. Would anyone be able to help me locate what page of Dinosaur Swamp mentions this?

I think it was a proposition to explain why people would hunt dinosaurs with SDC weapons, not something that actually appeard in a book.

Due to how watery swamps are, perhaps the ones actually killing them with such ammo are Sea Inquisitors.

Although I'm not sure dinos would qualify as supernatural evil.

I'm pretty sure that a bullet in an MDC creatures eye is like throwing sand in an SDC creatures eye.

Won't do permanent damage, but will blind them temporarily.

Yeah, Tor kind of addressed that. So I don't think they would use them to cause a loss of MDC. Though honestly, I still disagree that dinosaurs should be MDC in the first place. They should be more like 1E Robotech Zentradi. Tons of SDC, so they can take a hit from MD, but SDC still causes them damage.

I remember having a similar question way back when I first got the book, you can find the thread here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=32136

Basically I don't remember seeing anything about S.D.C. weapons, but rather precision M.D.C. weapons. On page 12 it talks about shooting a dinosaur in the eye, but it doesn't say with an S.D.C. weapon. On page 75, under the provider it says that Dinosaur Hunters have been known to bring down an adult dinosaur with a single shot with "The Provider". I don't think you could kill a dinosaur with an S.D.C. weapon.

Directly kill with an SDC weapon no but indirectly you could use fire to herd dinos off a cliff or into a mud/water trap and let nature take its course. It would be a slow kill but pretty safe.

I think most of the hunting referecnes were to single shot sniper style light MDC weapons aimed at eyes or other weak spots. It does not give a lot of specifics for how to do a one shot kill with such a weapon though.

I wouldnt allow it. Sdc damage would need to be well over a hundred
Are they sniping with M-79's?

Alrik Vas wrote:Yeah, Tor kind of addressed that. So I don't think they would use them to cause a loss of MDC. Though honestly, I still disagree that dinosaurs should be MDC in the first place. They should be more like 1E Robotech Zentradi. Tons of SDC, so they can take a hit from MD, but SDC still causes them damage.

This. 1,000,000,000,000 times over. And I wouldn't stop at dinosaurs.

Rifts used to have more high-SDC beings until all these 'updates' which just randomly make the MDC. It'd be interesting to compile a list of everyone this was done to. Trolls I know are one of them, SDC in CB1, MDC in WB30.

This rocks for campaign continuity. "Hey remember that time I saved your life from that troll by beating him to death with a broom?" No, your friend doesn't remember, because ULTIMATE FLASHPOINT CRISIS ON INFINITE MEGAVERSES.

I've already explained this at length and man it irked me that I was ignored and people don't even read the material before answering. Imagine how I feel when I explain something and it is debated and ignored because people don't like it, rather than sat down and thought about.

Essentially, body locations are derivatives of the Main Body. They're X% of the main body. The smaller the body location, the lower the percentage. Thus, an eye ball (which can barely handle normal contact with rough surfaces let alone being struck by say a dart) is easily destroyed. The brain and organs are also soft tissue and presumably have low S.D.C.

Am I really the only one who finds the idea of a chainsaw buckling and choking when used in an attempt to calve up an extracted brain utterly ludicrous?

I am not going to bother getting into a debate about it though, because I've been there and done that.

If you want to think that creatures can survive being shot in the eye ball and M.D.C. is magical invulnerability instead of "dimpling" (to use a military terminology) that is up to you. You just need to ignore cannon material and printed S.D.C. weapons with text saying they are used to do so.

kaid wrote:I think most of the hunting referecnes were to single shot sniper style light MDC weapons aimed at eyes or other weak spots. It does not give a lot of specifics for how to do a one shot kill with such a weapon though.

The optional rules for Headshots are in the R:GMG. Otherwise, the R:UE is pretty clear on headshots with modern weapons. They either instantly kill something or count as a "deathblow" if the G.M. is feeling generous.

Akashic Soldier wrote:I've already explained this at length and man it irked me that I was ignored and people don't even read the material before answering. Imagine how I feel when I explain something and it is debated and ignored because people don't like it, rather than sat down and thought about.

Essentially, body locations are derivatives of the Main Body. They're X% of the main body. The smaller the body location, the lower the percentage. Thus, an eye ball (which can barely handle normal contact with rough surfaces let alone being struck by say a dart) is easily destroyed. The brain and organs are also soft tissue and presumably have low S.D.C.

Am I really the only one who finds the idea of a chainsaw buckling and choking when used in an attempt to calve up an extracted brain utterly ludicrous?

I am not going to bother getting into a debate about it though, because I've been there and done that.

If you want to think that creatures can survive being shot in the eye ball and M.D.C. is magical invulnerability instead of "dimpling" (to use a military terminology) that is up to you. You just need to ignore cannon material and printed S.D.C. weapons with text saying they are used to do so.

kaid wrote:I think most of the hunting referecnes were to single shot sniper style light MDC weapons aimed at eyes or other weak spots. It does not give a lot of specifics for how to do a one shot kill with such a weapon though.

The optional rules for Headshots are in the R:GMG. Otherwise, the R:UE is pretty clear on headshots with modern weapons. They either instantly kill something or count as a "deathblow" if the G.M. is feeling generous.

The problem is that all the body parts will have at least 1 MDC. If you look on page 17 of the Compendium of Contemporary Weapons, the only other place in the Megaverse that gives you rules on providing hit points to different body parts (in this case, humans), it tells you to round up all fractions, and that parts like individual fingers, ears, eyes, etc, are to have one point each.

The Beast wrote:The problem is that all the body parts will have at least 1 MDC. If you look on page 17 of the Compendium of Contemporary Weapons, the only other place in the Megaverse that gives you rules on providing hit points to different body parts (in this case, humans), it tells you to round up all fractions, and that parts like individual fingers, ears, eyes, etc, are to have one point each.

The problem is the assumption that M.D.C. is anything but "A freaking huge amount of S.D.C./Hit Points". If you have 0.10 M.D.C. you don't "round up" to 1 M.D., you have 10 S.D.C. If that was a fraction, then rounding comes into it because there is nothing less. How do we know this?

Because the books have S.D.C. weapons that can be used to kill dinosaurs! Because M.D. is not this holy ineffable thing. It specifically says conventional weapons will leave pot marks in the main body of M.D.C. armor. It is referring to its main body. M.D.C. is not indestructibility. Its the ability to take massive amounts of punishment. The negation of S.D.C. damage is not "perfect" as illustrated by the fact that 100 S.D.C. transfers into 1 M.D. point.

Now, you might say "Oh but that means to destroy the eye you have to do 1 M.D." but I think that is kind of ignoring the fact that the fraction rule is in place so you don't end up doing uneven points of damage or under 1 point of damage. You need to reme--

I said I wasn't going to debate this again. I will leave it with that. Please feel free to disagree and do it your way. I just won't be doing it that way myself. I think there are more common sense alternatives.

Oh okay so it's that house-rule thing...

Soldier if we used that "percentage of body" approach, I could poke pretty much any SDC creature with a pool cue and impale them all the way through with it with minimal effort or strength.

Heck, using the one-finger-tip attack, rather than merely pressing pressure/atemi points, would give a CP9 effect (One Piece) of jabbing holes in the body. After all, if you compare the surface area of a fingertip to that of an entire body, it's reliably going to be less than 1/100 so most normal humans would be utterly eradicated.

Even a lot of punches would start going through the body and ripping open flesh in a bloody manner, using the percentage approach.

Part of the problem here is that SDC/HP are not all the damage capacity you body HAS, but rather, the amount you can survive. This is why there's still a corpse left over (which can even be animated and have huge amounts of SDC without enhancement) when you're killed, and why people can survive damage below zero.

I actually know no reliable means of calculating the true total damage capacity of a body.

Excellent find about rounding up fractions there TB

The problem is the assumption that M.D.C. is anything but "A freaking huge amount of S.D.C./Hit Points".

That's not an assumption though, it's a fact. There's a huge difference between having 500 SDC and having 5 MDC.

Because the books have S.D.C. weapons that can be used to kill dinosaurs!

Cool, and the reason I made the thread was to ask where I can find this mentioned, like page numbers and stuff.

It specifically says conventional weapons will leave pot marks in the main body of M.D.C. armor.

Page where 'pot mark' is mentioned? Actually not even sure what term means. I assume this means 'paint job' though.

M.D.C. is not indestructibility.

Aaaand this strawman again. Nobody in the thread said MDC is indestructability, just immunity to 1-99 damage.

I think there are more common sense alternatives.

Yes like the ability for a kid wielding a broom being able to throw it through the chest of an Ogre because it's rounded tip has such a small surface area.

Tor wrote:Yes like the ability for a kid wielding a broom being able to throw it through the chest of an Ogre because it's rounded tip has such a small surface area.

No, because that is going to "kill" the monster and not "damage a region of its body". Its more like... stabbing something n the hand to pin it to a table or stabbing something in the eye with a combat knife to blind it in one eye when you are backed into a corner. Regardless, I already said I am not debating this with you Tor.

If you want to know where stuff is, instead of arguing with people how they're wrong about things over the internet maybe you should spend your time reading the books. I recommend starting with the definition of M.D.C. in the R:UE. Since, its obvious from the questions you're asking regarding the location of certain information you have not (or have somehow forgotten).

5 M.D.C. is 500 S.D.C.

If something has 5 M.D.C. and I do 500 S.D.C. damage, it dies. Period.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

The Beast wrote:The problem is that all the body parts will have at least 1 MDC. If you look on page 17 of the Compendium of Contemporary Weapons, the only other place in the Megaverse that gives you rules on providing hit points to different body parts (in this case, humans), it tells you to round up all fractions, and that parts like individual fingers, ears, eyes, etc, are to have one point each.

The problem is the assumption that M.D.C. is anything but "A freaking huge amount of S.D.C./Hit Points". If you have 0.10 M.D.C. you don't "round up" to 1 M.D., you have 10 S.D.C. If that was a fraction, then rounding comes into it because there is nothing less. How do we know this?

Because the books have S.D.C. weapons that can be used to kill dinosaurs! Because M.D. is not this holy ineffable thing. It specifically says conventional weapons will leave pot marks in the main body of M.D.C. armor. It is referring to its main body. M.D.C. is not indestructibility. Its the ability to take massive amounts of punishment. The negation of S.D.C. damage is not "perfect" as illustrated by the fact that 100 S.D.C. transfers into 1 M.D. point.

Now, you might say "Oh but that means to destroy the eye you have to do 1 M.D." but I think that is kind of ignoring the fact that the fraction rule is in place so you don't end up doing uneven points of damage or under 1 point of damage. You need to reme--

I said I wasn't going to debate this again. I will leave it with that. Please feel free to disagree and do it your way. I just won't be doing it that way myself. I think there are more common sense alternatives.

The best being to stop making non-supernaturals MDC creatures.

Well, Naruni Arms are still more efficient than traditional rifles and ammo for dino hunting, unless you insist on the skull remaining mostly whole.

For killing a dino a naruni weapon would be better but if you are hunting them you want to kill it with the least amount of blowing it into flaming gibblets possible so a laser or something more directed and less flaming may wind up being better.

Good old L20 or something by Wilks... alwayss good for putting neat holes into a brain case

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Tor wrote:Yes like the ability for a kid wielding a broom being able to throw it through the chest of an Ogre because it's rounded tip has such a small surface area.

No, because that is going to "kill" the monster and not "damage a region of its body". Its more like... stabbing something n the hand to pin it to a table or stabbing something in the eye with a combat knife to blind it in one eye when you are backed into a corner.

My point here is if you're going to go based on % of body area, it's going to bring up a host of problems. Whatever area a pool cue would hit would generally be overwhelmed by the damage of the cue since it's so tiny. Body parts have more SDC than merely their percentage based on surface area. We have no reliable guidelines regarding how much SDC an eye has. Not even for that 'body parts' power in PU1, for which it would've been kinda useful (it mentiosn you can destroy the parts, but it mentions you take damage... and not what the limit is).

Akashic Soldier wrote:Regardless, I already said I am not debating this with you Tor. If you want to know where stuff is, instead of arguing with people how they're wrong about things over the internet maybe you should spend your time reading the books.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to read the page you're talking about which discusses SDC weapons inflicting damage on MDC dinosaurs. I did look for it and failed to accomplish that goal.

Akashic Soldier wrote:I recommend starting with the definition of M.D.C. in the R:UE. Since, its obvious from the questions you're asking regarding the location of certain information you have not (or have somehow forgotten). 5 M.D.C. is 500 S.D.C. If something has 5 M.D.C. and I do 500 S.D.C. damage, it dies. Period.

I'm not sure where you got this example from, as it's kinda off-topic...

But no, I'm pretty sure if you lower an MDC creature to 0 MDC, they probably follow the same 'can survive PE damage below zero in a coma for PE hours' rules that normal people do. So they COULD die, but they might also survive.

Although off-hand I'm not entirely sure where/if this is explicitly stated. Anyone recall?

One other thing to note with dinos is most do not appear to have much bio regen compared to most monsters. Crippling attacks work much more effectively vs dinosaurs than creatures of magic or supernatural creatures. Once they get hurt in general they stay hurt for a while. With this its more possible to use the old bull fighting type tactics of bleeding and harrassing them into exhaustion and then finish them off.

and no need for expensive and hard to get U rounds either...

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Tor wrote:Yes like the ability for a kid wielding a broom being able to throw it through the chest of an Ogre because it's rounded tip has such a small surface area.

No, because that is going to "kill" the monster and not "damage a region of its body". Its more like... stabbing something n the hand to pin it to a table or stabbing something in the eye with a combat knife to blind it in one eye when you are backed into a corner. Regardless, I already said I am not debating this with you Tor.

If you want to know where stuff is, instead of arguing with people how they're wrong about things over the internet maybe you should spend your time reading the books. I recommend starting with the definition of M.D.C. in the R:UE. Since, its obvious from the questions you're asking regarding the location of certain information you have not (or have somehow forgotten).

5 M.D.C. is 500 S.D.C.

If something has 5 M.D.C. and I do 500 S.D.C. damage, it dies. Period.

But that's an incomplete example, and using it alone is not a valid argument for MDC and SDC being the same.

5MDC isn't 500 SDC, it's 5 MDC. They aren't the same, but they are related.

While the example you gave is true, the following is also true.

If something has 5 MDC and you do 401 SD followed by 99 SD, it is not dead - it still has 1 MD. The total is still 500 SDC, but 500 SDC is not automatically the same as 5 MDC. The first shot will do 4 MD, but the second will do zero. If you like to houserule that so it's not true and it works well for you then so be it, but acknowledge that it is a houserule.

I don't know of any examples in any books of fractional/partial MDC "converting" to SDC. Again, if you want to houserule it that's fine (many people aren't thrilled with the ratio and/or relationship between SDC and MDC, myself included), but the books make a pretty hard-line distinction between SDC and MDC.

If you know of canon examples of using SD weapons to harm MD creatures, please point it out. As mentioned above, people have looked for such a thing and not found it.

PigLick

PigLickJF wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Tor wrote:Yes like the ability for a kid wielding a broom being able to throw it through the chest of an Ogre because it's rounded tip has such a small surface area.

No, because that is going to "kill" the monster and not "damage a region of its body". Its more like... stabbing something n the hand to pin it to a table or stabbing something in the eye with a combat knife to blind it in one eye when you are backed into a corner. Regardless, I already said I am not debating this with you Tor.

If you want to know where stuff is, instead of arguing with people how they're wrong about things over the internet maybe you should spend your time reading the books. I recommend starting with the definition of M.D.C. in the R:UE. Since, its obvious from the questions you're asking regarding the location of certain information you have not (or have somehow forgotten).

5 M.D.C. is 500 S.D.C.

If something has 5 M.D.C. and I do 500 S.D.C. damage, it dies. Period.

But that's an incomplete example, and using it alone is not a valid argument for MDC and SDC being the same.

5MDC isn't 500 SDC, it's 5 MDC. They aren't the same, but they are related.

While the example you gave is true, the following is also true.

If something has 5 MDC and you do 401 SD followed by 99 SD, it is not dead - it still has 1 MD. The total is still 500 SDC, but 500 SDC is not automatically the same as 5 MDC. The first shot will do 4 MD, but the second will do zero. If you like to houserule that so it's not true and it works well for you then so be it, but acknowledge that it is a houserule.

I don't know of any examples in any books of fractional/partial MDC "converting" to SDC. Again, if you want to houserule it that's fine (many people aren't thrilled with the ratio and/or relationship between SDC and MDC, myself included), but the books make a pretty hard-line distinction between SDC and MDC.

If you know of canon examples of using SD weapons to harm MD creatures, please point it out. As mentioned above, people have looked for such a thing and not found it.

PigLick

The rules in RUE state that a weapon that does 499 SD to a 5 MDC object would still have to do another 100 SD before the remaining 1 MDC is gone.

Shoken Zuki. Tor has a point in real life. But in game mechanics an sdc attack would need to deal over a hundred sdc to scratch an mdc being. And that would be like a mosquito bite. I got stung in my eyeball by a paperwasp. Should I have died or lost my eye since it delt sdc damage to an sdc being? I must be mdc then cause I still have two eyes.

I think you mean 'Akashic Soldier' has a point in real life, which I agree with

What is lacking is basically the concept of damage absorb/resistance in many situations that would demand it. A needle, to penetrate the skin, inflicts at least 1 SDC for example, but odds are, most people could survive getting 50 needles without dying, in even less time than it would take TMNT/N&SS guys to heal the damage, even though it'd be kinda painful.

Short of the minor super ability 'energy resistance' (absorb 20) and MDC (absorb fractions under 100) it just doesn't exist even though realistically we know it would (thus not being impaled by pool cues)

Tor wrote:I think you mean 'Akashic Soldier' has a point in real life, which I agree with

What is lacking is basically the concept of damage absorb/resistance in many situations that would demand it. A needle, to penetrate the skin, inflicts at least 1 SDC for example, but odds are, most people could survive getting 50 needles without dying, in even less time than it would take TMNT/N&SS guys to heal the damage, even though it'd be kinda painful.

Short of the minor super ability 'energy resistance' (absorb 20) and MDC (absorb fractions under 100) it just doesn't exist even though realistically we know it would (thus not being impaled by pool cues)

This would probably come under the 'common sense' or 'why you have a GM' areas. Not every single thing can be properly modeled, and in fact the game doesn't even try. The very idea of SDC/HP is non-realistic since 'damage' isn't quantum. But its very convenient to use from a game standpoint since its easy to track. However at some point you have to accept that this is a game, and not a reality simulation, and that the rules are not, nor never were designed to simulate reality, but instead were designed to facilitate the playing of a game.

I'm honestly all for 'MDC hides, SDC eyes', as a personal houserule. Just not sure it's indicated under canon/rules.

The Beast wrote:

PigLickJF wrote:
I don't know of any examples in any books of fractional/partial MDC "converting" to SDC.
PigLick

The rules in RUE state that a weapon that does 499 SD to a 5 MDC object would still have to do another 100 SD before the remaining 1 MDC is gone.

Right, which is pretty much exactly what my example was pointing out.

What I meant by the quote above, and I probably didn't phrase it too clearly, is that I'm not aware of any canon mechanism whereby a percentage of MDC can be "down-converted" into SDC if the percentage works out to less than 1 MDC. That was what Akashic was arguing, e.g. if you have an object with 10 MDC main body, then a "hit location" of that object with 5% of main body would have 50 SDC. It works out mathematically of course, but there's a mechanical divide between MDC and SDC that's more than just pure numbers, which is what my (and your) example point out.

PigLick

eliakon wrote:This would probably come under the 'common sense' or 'why you have a GM' areas. Not every single thing can be properly modeled, and in fact the game doesn't even try. The very idea of SDC/HP is non-realistic since 'damage' isn't quantum. But its very convenient to use from a game standpoint since its easy to track. However at some point you have to accept that this is a game, and not a reality simulation, and that the rules are not, nor never were designed to simulate reality, but instead were designed to facilitate the playing of a game.

*Nods*

PigLickJF wrote:There's a mechanical divide between MDC and SDC that's more than just pure numbers.

Not really. M.D.C. is a simple mechanic for a simple phenomenon. Its also why I don't really get why folks keep trying to change things rather than simply adjusting their perspective on the matter. Anyways, I have already said my piece on this before and I've genuinely got more important ways to spend my time then arguing in circles. M.D.C. is math to represent how much damage something can take before it is severely inhibited or destroyed. One point of M.D.C. is equal to 100 S.D.C. and 1 M.D. is equal to 100 S.D.C.

If you understand the different between Hit Points, S.D.C. and M.D.C. its pretty straight forward. Someone with one M.D. remaining who took 499 S.D.C. isn't impervious to damage. Its just they nearly died but were just tough enough to hold on. Its not negating the damage. Again, this is covered in the description of what M.D.C. is. If a machine gun can ping and dent M.D.C. armor (without doing one point of Mega-Damage) than its simple common sense that these forces are not completely exclusive of one another. Its all about thresholds.

We've got S.D.C. firearms that are stated as being used to hunt M.D.C. beings but instead of just accepting that M.D.C. isn't this perfect "negate all S.D.C. superpower" people have repeatedly challenged it. You're entitled to believe whatever you want, but as I said before. There is a rifle in Dinoswamp that expressly explains this and how it happens. There is also a paragraph explaining that they use primitive traps and pits to hunt them too -- giving credence to my "house rule" (as it has been called) that falling damage and collision inflicts equal and equivalent damage to M.D.C. beings; which is why a "crash" into S.D.C. materials can destroy an aircraft (reduce its M.D.C. below zero) and while robots in Triax use parachutes, etc., etc.

M.D.C. is a great mechanic when used properly. It helps mitigate large amounts of damage without people getting caught up with damage pools of 6,000+. It also helps reflect massive levels of damage. Its not "immunity to S.D.C. damage", its just massive damage tolerance or (in the case of M.D.) super effective damage.

Anyways, enjoy the game you guys like and enjoy the rest of the discussion. I've said as much as I can be bothered explaining. Those who want to find the rules for damage by location can look it up and interpret it in anyway you like. However, I am of the mind that the examples given in the book are feasible within the rules as written. I keep imagining the blades of a chainsaw shattering on an extracted brain and it just seems absolutely ludicrous to me. I think "why would an eyeball or brain have the same damage capacity as a finger or head when the rules say it doesn't?"

I've just failed to be convinced by anything said here and although I "get" the 499 does not equal 500. I also think it is a failure on behalf of the G.M. to have the character that was ONE HIT POINT/S.D.C. just laugh off 499 S.D.C. -- ESPECIALLY since the force required to inflict 499 S.D.C. is equal to approximately 5-10 sticks of dynamite (if I recall correctly; Merc Ops). There is a difference between "not sustaining enough damage to be seriously injured" and "negating damage".

And you can impale with a poolcue just break it first. Lol

I solve this problem by writing Dinos as SDC creatures. They just have **** tons of SDC.

Your privilege... Of course, in my campaign where SDC weapons are nearly unknown, that is pretty moot.

Even in the dino swamp basic MDC weapons while maybe not being something everybody has adventurers and tribes main warriors do have access to them. Either via steel wood weapons/eco wizard equipment/necromancer bone magic weapons and even some tech weapons that manage to make it into the swamps.

Really there would be almost no point hunting a dino unless you had at least a bit of MDC weaponry because to use the hide and get at the meat you are going to need to do more than just poke its eye out you are going to have to cut the skin. One option I guess would be to wait for another dino to come and gnosh on it and open the thing up for your tribe to scavenge but ideally it means you at least have one and probably a few MDC capable cutting utensils.

Sniping the eye would make them vulnerable to traps, or if you destroyed the brain, could go slice them up with a vibro-blade.

If you lacked MDC armor then you might not want to close into melee range to do that otherwise.

I used to think that dinos were nothing more than just extinct animals and should be S.D.C. as well, however, page 13 of Dino Swamp describes that dinos are basically Creatures of Magic, not just big standard animals like an elephant or rhino.

The author left it ambiguous in the write up and I wish it was more direct, but he did confirm for me that making dinos officially CoM was his intention; thus explaining why they are MDC on Rifts Earth.

Basically, in game, nobody knows for sure *why* these animals are MDC, but they are. Either they are mutants of the original animals, or the original animals were always CoM. Either way, they are MDC creatures due to the high magic of Rifts Earth.

Because of this, I am inclined to follow the camp that an SDC weapon of any kind will not harm a dino, even if shot through the eye since its a basic game mechanic that SD cannot hurt MDC unless it deals 100+ SDC with one component, and at that, it will only damage the targeted location.

That's just...man...
/facepalm

Akashic Soldier wrote:

PigLickJF wrote:There's a mechanical divide between MDC and SDC that's more than just pure numbers.

Not really. M.D.C. is a simple mechanic for a simple phenomenon. Its also why I don't really get why folks keep trying to change things rather than simply adjusting their perspective on the matter. Anyways, I have already said my piece on this before and I've genuinely got more important ways to spend my time then arguing in circles. M.D.C. is math to represent how much damage something can take.

It's crazy that you keep saying this, without apparently realizing that 99SDC+99SDC+99SDC = 0MD. It's not just straight addition, and if my character could inflict 99SDC with EVERY punch, he could never kill an MDC being, nor inflict a single point of MD.


So, no one has found a reference for SDC weapons being used against dinos? Because if it's actually in there it would be interesting to know. I do not own Dino Swamp, but the example of the SDC rifle being used to hunt dinosaurs by targeting vulnerable areas seems to be brought up on this site a LOT, if it actually doesn't exist in the book I am going to laugh.

The MD/MDC system needs to go away. It (mostly) works for Robotech and that's it. Rifts and all other settings should be SDC based with a damage resistance mechanic like described in the Compendium of Contemporary Weapons.'

--flatline

Eashamahel wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:

PigLickJF wrote:There's a mechanical divide between MDC and SDC that's more than just pure numbers.

Not really. M.D.C. is a simple mechanic for a simple phenomenon. Its also why I don't really get why folks keep trying to change things rather than simply adjusting their perspective on the matter. Anyways, I have already said my piece on this before and I've genuinely got more important ways to spend my time then arguing in circles. M.D.C. is math to represent how much damage something can take.

It's crazy that you keep saying this, without apparently realizing that 99SDC+99SDC+99SDC = 0MD. It's not just straight addition, and if my character could inflict 99SDC with EVERY punch, he could never kill an MDC being, nor inflict a single point of MD.


So, no one has found a reference for SDC weapons being used against dinos? Because if it's actually in there it would be interesting to know. I do not own Dino Swamp, but the example of the SDC rifle being used to hunt dinosaurs by targeting vulnerable areas seems to be brought up on this site a LOT, if it actually doesn't exist in the book I am going to laugh.

Merc Ops Pg 99-100. WI-SR15 15mm Sniper Rifle

S.D.C. Damage: A single standard round inflicts 1D8x10
S.D.C., a three round burst does one M.D. and 10 round burst
does 1D4 M.D. (or 1D4x100 S.D.C.).

Greyaxe wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:

PigLickJF wrote:There's a mechanical divide between MDC and SDC that's more than just pure numbers.

Not really. M.D.C. is a simple mechanic for a simple phenomenon. Its also why I don't really get why folks keep trying to change things rather than simply adjusting their perspective on the matter. Anyways, I have already said my piece on this before and I've genuinely got more important ways to spend my time then arguing in circles. M.D.C. is math to represent how much damage something can take.

It's crazy that you keep saying this, without apparently realizing that 99SDC+99SDC+99SDC = 0MD. It's not just straight addition, and if my character could inflict 99SDC with EVERY punch, he could never kill an MDC being, nor inflict a single point of MD.


So, no one has found a reference for SDC weapons being used against dinos? Because if it's actually in there it would be interesting to know. I do not own Dino Swamp, but the example of the SDC rifle being used to hunt dinosaurs by targeting vulnerable areas seems to be brought up on this site a LOT, if it actually doesn't exist in the book I am going to laugh.

Merc Ops Pg 99-100. WI-SR15 15mm Sniper Rifle

S.D.C. Damage: A single standard round inflicts 1D8x10
S.D.C., a three round burst does one M.D. and 10 round burst
does 1D4 M.D. (or 1D4x100 S.D.C.).

If an individual bullet can't harm an MDC structure, what sense does it make that a burst of such bullets can harm the MDC structure?

--flatline

Greyaxe wrote:Merc Ops Pg 99-100. WI-SR15 15mm Sniper Rifle

S.D.C. Damage: A single standard round inflicts 1D8x10
S.D.C., a three round burst does one M.D. and 10 round burst
does 1D4 M.D. (or 1D4x100 S.D.C.).

Yep. And there were caseless SMGs before that which inflicted SDC on single rounds and MD on bursts, and before THAT there was a hailstorm in Atlantis which inflicted SDC to SDC structures but would inflict MD to MDC structures over a longer period of time.

Bursts from SDC weapons inflicting MD has long been something that is talked about as NOT being effective against MDC materials in the rules and then being statted out, in specific cases, to be able to inflict MDC damage.

None of that changes the fact that if I could punch for 99SD I would never damage an MD structure.

flatline wrote:If an individual bullet can't harm an MDC structure, what sense does it make that a burst of such bullets can harm the MDC structure?

--flatline

You can't JUST be realizing that Palladium CONSTANTLY writes things that break their own system regarding MD?

The old joke I used to hear back when people played RIFTS was that 'Palladium thought that MDC worked just fine, because no one at Palladium actually used it the way it was written', and that's pretty accurate. The FIRST example ever written in RIFTS of interaction in-game between SDC and MDC is, literally, a burst of SDC bullets inflicting HUNDREDS of SDC to an MD structure which is said to do NO DAMAGE because even hundreds of individual SDC attacks do not equal MD.

Two books out of the gate that is ignored. Not too long after, those same SDC bullets fired at an MD structure inflict MD.


The rules weren't changed. The concept wasn't changed. It just gets ignored by Palladium whenever they have something they feel is neat, and helps add to a game line whose biggest stumbling block is already rules issues.

Eashamahel wrote:

flatline wrote:If an individual bullet can't harm an MDC structure, what sense does it make that a burst of such bullets can harm the MDC structure?

--flatline

You can't JUST be realizing that Palladium CONSTANTLY writes things that break their own system regarding MD?

The old joke I used to hear back when people played RIFTS was that 'Palladium thought that MDC worked just fine, because no one at Palladium actually used it the way it was written', and that's pretty accurate. The FIRST example ever written in RIFTS of interaction in-game between SDC and MDC is, literally, a burst of SDC bullets inflicting HUNDREDS of SDC to an MD structure which is said to do NO DAMAGE because even hundreds of individual SDC attacks do not equal MD.

Two books out of the gate that is ignored. Not too long after, those same SDC bullets fired at an MD structure inflict MD.


The rules weren't changed. The concept wasn't changed. It just gets ignored by Palladium whenever they have something they feel is neat, and helps add to a game line whose biggest stumbling block is already rules issues.

Actually, the contradiction didn't wait two books, RMB has a motorcycle in the vehicle section with an optional machine gun that does MD on bursts. They contradicted themselves in the very first book!

--flatline

Oh yeah, I remember the motorcycle and the machine gun arm on the Cyborg, but since there was no SDC setting for those weapons I, in my youth, just assumed they must be some kind of MDC machinegun, clearly different from the SDC assault rifles we are assured can't hurt MDC materials.

The outright contradictions came later, when weapons that clearly stated they fired SDC bullets (of the same damage level as the assualt rifles from the rulebook example actually) were given MDC values for bursts.

Alrik Vas wrote:That's just...man...
/facepalm

SO Rifts

flatline wrote:The MD/MDC system needs to go away. It (mostly) works for Robotech and that's it. Rifts and all other settings should be SDC based with a damage resistance mechanic like described in the Compendium of Contemporary Weapons.'

--flatline

Don't agree, Gargoyles and Dragons have good reasons to be thoroughly immune to weapons that deal less than tank massive amounts of damage.

In some ways I like and understand MDC but in other ways I wish it was not a 1-100 ratio of MDC to SDC but more of a 1-10 type ratio. The game tends to be somewhat binary for tech classes. Either your character is 100% health or their armor fails and then they instantly vaporise.

Still if you visualize the MDC weapons like the alien weapons in the district 9 movie it is one way to appreciate how the damage scales may shift dramatically.

As for dinos being MDC I don't have any real problem with it. If the game actually was that MDC weapons/combat were the exception not the rule then sure dinos being SDC makes more sense. But as is MDC weapons just are not that rare and for every bit of flavor talking about the rarity of MDC weapons you then get lore about whole forests of alien trees that any of their wood/leaves can be used to make basic MDC capable weapons. And the whole point of hunting dinos other than food is their hide. Once you allow hodge podge MDC armor from dino hides any possible rarity of MDC armor goes out the window. One big dino probably has enough hide to armor an entire tribe.

If humans have one skill they are good at its killing stuff. If there is any possible way to kill something we won't just do it we will do it exceedingly well.

Kagashi wrote:page 13 of Dino Swamp describes that dinos are basically Creatures of Magic, nobody knows for sure *why* these animals are MDC

Rifts Conversion Book made it clear that any of the pre-historic creatures made via Transdimensional TMNT would have their SDC become MDC, so I blame dat Temporal Energy. It mutates your Bio-E and amps you up. Kind of like how HU's mutant characteristic SDC bonuses were all MDC as well.

flatline wrote:

Greyaxe wrote:Merc Ops Pg 99-100. WI-SR15 15mm Sniper Rifle
S.D.C. Damage: A single standard round inflicts 1D8x10 S.D.C.
a three round burst does one M.D.
10 round burst does 1D4 M.D. (or 1D4x100 S.D.C.).

If an individual bullet can't harm an MDC structure, what sense does it make that a burst of such bullets can harm the MDC structure?

It's the accumulated force inflicted in a short period of time. If the first overcome the damage resistance then the other ones can damage it.

LIKE THIS MAN

Eashamahel wrote:The FIRST example ever written in RIFTS of interaction in-game between SDC and MDC is, literally, a burst of SDC bullets inflicting HUNDREDS of SDC to an MD structure which is said to do NO DAMAGE because even hundreds of individual SDC attacks do not equal MD. Two books out of the gate that is ignored. Not too long after, those same SDC bullets fired at an MD structure inflict MD.

How long did the burst take though? There's a huge difference between a short burst accumulating 100 SDC and a full melee burst accumulating it.

flatline wrote:RMB has a motorcycle in the vehicle section with an optional machine gun that does MD on bursts. They contradicted themselves in the very first book!

Some potentially SDC-per-single-shot bursts inflicting MD on a burst doesn't necessarily mean that all SDC bursts should, bursts have different mechanics.

Also... how is this any different from accumulated force differences with restrained punches doing SDC and normal/power doing MD? (unless you are 60+, then you better have a pretty awesome pull punch or get some kind of tranq gun)

Tor wrote:
LIKE THIS MAN)

Bill Cosby: "And there I must think; I am -through- this brick, I am -through- this brick.
And the brick says OH NO YOU AIN'T."