Rifts Mercenaries and the giggle factor...

[Killer Cyborg]

Good observations.

[Shark_Force]

robot control specializes in anti-robot warfare. frankly, most of their troops *should* be packing anti-tank weaponry, although rifts is a little screwy in that you don't need anti-tank weaponry to reliably damage tanks (alternately, another way of looking at it is that even a laser pistol is pretty much anti-tank weaponry, and everyone is pretty much just using anti-tank weaponry that can deal with bigger or smaller tanks).

demon busters specializes in anti-supernatural combat. the rifle is for most things. the sidearm sounds like it would be absolutely wonderful if you ever run into vampires, werewolves, etc.

but yeah, braddock's bad boys is pretty nuts.

[Eashamahel]

I'm pretty sure giving people missile launchers with no ammo has been standard practice since the RMB. I seem to remember the CS supplying units in Skull Walkers with CR-1's and no ammo...

[Dog_O_War]

Honestly I don't think any of these squads are properly kitted out given the mechanical aspects of Rifts Earth.
By this I mean that about the only thing that is spot-on are the amount of grenades, which seems to have been a complaint by the OP.

See, in real-life, one grenade can kill many and multiple targets. In Rifts, one grenade won't even slow a fella down. You literally need 3-4 grenades to achieve the same effect, in effect, the necessity of number of grenades a person would otherwise need to carry has risen due to "damage-capacity inflation". A grenade isn't worth what it used to be anymore.

What I find quite skewed is the lack of rifles with a 2000+ foot range these troops roll around with.

As far as these merc companies go, I believe that the most proper outfitted company is the one that seems most overwhelming. Because in Rifts, it requires dozens of grenades and multiple mini-missile launchers and grenade launchers to deal with a target.

[kaid]

Honestly I don't think any of these squads are properly kitted out given the mechanical aspects of Rifts Earth.
By this I mean that about the only thing that is spot-on are the amount of grenades, which seems to have been a complaint by the OP.

See, in real-life, one grenade can kill many and multiple targets. In Rifts, one grenade won't even slow a fella down. You literally need 3-4 grenades to achieve the same effect, in effect, the necessity of number of grenades a person would otherwise need to carry has risen due to "damage-capacity inflation". A grenade isn't worth what it used to be anymore.

What I find quite skewed is the lack of rifles with a 2000+ foot range these troops roll around with.

As far as these merc companies go, I believe that the most proper outfitted company is the one that seems most overwhelming. Because in Rifts, it requires dozens of grenades and multiple mini-missile launchers and grenade launchers to deal with a target.

Also given how small grenades can be since the same damage grenades fit rifle variants it is unlikely that grenades are as large and bulky as what we currently see today so think more large shot gun shell size than current day hand grenade size on your bandolieer. Honestly though if I had a grenade layout like that I would have at least a couple of them flash bangs and a couple smoke grenades. The flash bangs giving all effected a -10 to strike for their duration is in a lot of ways more useful than pure damage grenades and pretty cheap and smoke is great if there is no cover around or you need to buy yourself some time to reach cover.

[Eashamahel]

You're not wrong on that, Dog. If you honestly want to kill something with a grenade in RIFTS, you're better off throwing a half dozen tied together, or a satchel charge made of fusion block(s).

[kaid]

One must remembers a dead merc collects no pay. So overkill for mercs is the name of the game. Better to use a much bigger hammer than needed than to not bring enough and take to many losses/collateral damage.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

I think the overkill on supply can/should be played as a subtle bit of psychological manipulation.

"I don't know about going after Group X, Sarge. They have a pretty mean reputation. They've gotta be bad news or the bounty wouldn't so high right?"
"Buck up soldier, you're packing around (insert crazy gear here). Why, there isn't a thing out there than can stand up to your superior firepower." (To self.. except for everything that is out there and packing just as much firepower as you are. You poor, sad, gooey, red smear on the wilderness)
"You're right Sarge! With my new NG-?? I'm unstoppable"


--- brought to you by Naruni Enterprises, "When you have to ABSOLUTELY convince them it is not a suicide mission."

[glitterboy2098]

maxim 37 - there is no such thing as overkill, only 'open fire' and 'i need to reload'

[Dog_O_War]

Also given how small grenades can be since the same damage grenades fit rifle variants it is unlikely that grenades are as large and bulky as what we currently see today so think more large shot gun shell size than current day hand grenade size on your bandolieer. Honestly though if I had a grenade layout like that I would have at least a couple of them flash bangs and a couple smoke grenades. The flash bangs giving all effected a -10 to strike for their duration is in a lot of ways more useful than pure damage grenades and pretty cheap and smoke is great if there is no cover around or you need to buy yourself some time to reach cover.

The grenades in Rifts are of a comparable size to what they are today; of the various grenade launchers around Rifts, with the WI one being in my opinion the most iconic, there are blurbs and words that state the size of grenades. In this instance, the WI grenade launcher uses 40mm grenades, and it appears to be based off of the Mk 19 grenade launcher, which fires 40mm grenades as well.

But your mention of flash bangs has given me an idea; a burst of grenades, headed by a flash bang would be devistating. And you're right; they should have them, especially mixed in. It's too bad there isn't a secondary feeder port with an electronic control where you could designate how often you wanted a flash bang to be fed in...

[Dog_O_War]

You're not wrong on that, Dog. If you honestly want to kill something with a grenade in RIFTS, you're better off throwing a half dozen tied together, or a satchel charge made of fusion block(s).

That was my own immediate thought on how to maximize the time spent throwing grenades, but that still does not discount nor dispute the fact that in Rifts, you have to carry around a dozen grenades to affect the same amount of kills two grenades produce in our own modern world.

Or, re: damage-capacity inflation.

[Dog_O_War]

One must remembers a dead merc collects no pay. So overkill for mercs is the name of the game. Better to use a much bigger hammer than needed than to not bring enough and take to many losses/collateral damage.

This actually brings to mind the cost of ammo versus the cost of salvage/damage taken.

Like, it costs X for a single shot from a laser rifle. The damage produced from that shot would cost Y to repair.

What we're looking for is Zed; Zed is the most effective Z there is. And Z is X+Y+time, where time is A (armour, specifically yours) -Y (specifically the cost to repair your armour).

Zed isn't necessarily the highest-damage rifle, what Zed represents is a high-damage rifle that uses its shots most efficiently, while not allowing the amount of damage you take to out-strip the damage you deal. Zed can be different for various situations, such as combat at very long ranges, such as 3000+ feet where very few rifles are even able to compete.

[Crow Splat]

When I first read it I thought they seemed pretty heavily armed too.

Then in our next campaign, our group had 2 rail guns, a missile launcher, a SAMAS with a particle gun, a glitter boy, and a couple of plasma ejectors in a party of 6. The average group of any of those merc units would have had their faces caved ib by us at level 1.

If you look at them like a PC group, a pure men-at-arms party would be much more heavily armed with the exception of grenades.

[kaid]

You're not wrong on that, Dog. If you honestly want to kill something with a grenade in RIFTS, you're better off throwing a half dozen tied together, or a satchel charge made of fusion block(s).

That was my own immediate thought on how to maximize the time spent throwing grenades, but that still does not discount nor dispute the fact that in Rifts, you have to carry around a dozen grenades to affect the same amount of kills two grenades produce in our own modern world.

Or, re: damage-capacity inflation.

To some extent it is damage capacity inflation but really given the whole MDC concept to begin with your infantry troopers are all wearing the equivalent of a bradley armored personal carrier as their body armor. Throw a frag grenade at a bradley and see what happens.

The offense vs defense capabilites in war has fluctuated through time where at some times the armor is stronger than the weapons but when that happens eventually somebody creates a new weapon. In the modern day we are starting to see a resurgence of effective combat body armor where for for almost 100 years armor was so totally ineffective it was simply discarded as useless weight. In rifts offense and defense are pretty close in parity the weapons are super strong but the armor is light enough weight and protection to successfully mitigate the damage very effectively.

It is a testament to the power of the MDC explosives that something like a hand grenade on non direct contact is even capable of harming MDC body armor at all.

[Shark_Force]

It is a testament to the power of the MDC explosives that something like a hand grenade on non direct contact is even capable of harming MDC body armor at all.

except that mini-missiles, which likely carry a similar payload, can deal substantially more damage than a grenade.

[kaid]

It is a testament to the power of the MDC explosives that something like a hand grenade on non direct contact is even capable of harming MDC body armor at all.

except that mini-missiles, which likely carry a similar payload, can deal substantially more damage than a grenade.

Except that most of the damage done by mini missiles is done via the direct impact of the missile with the target. The blast radius damage is similar to that of the grenades.

[flatline]

It is a testament to the power of the MDC explosives that something like a hand grenade on non direct contact is even capable of harming MDC body armor at all.

except that mini-missiles, which likely carry a similar payload, can deal substantially more damage than a grenade.

Except that most of the damage done by mini missiles is done via the direct impact of the missile with the target. The blast radius damage is similar to that of the grenades.

I don't think it works that way. The kinetic energy transfered from the impact would be trivial compared to the energy from the explosion.

--flatline

[rat_bastard]

It is a testament to the power of the MDC explosives that something like a hand grenade on non direct contact is even capable of harming MDC body armor at all.

except that mini-missiles, which likely carry a similar payload, can deal substantially more damage than a grenade.

Assuming a mini missile carries a similar payload as a grenade.

[Dog_O_War]

A mini-missile is quite compareable to a grenade because of the equivalents do the same damage (or close enough to as to make no difference).

That said, SDC is a terrible system when something like a Bradley could be punched to destruction - it should either take damage or not take damage. An MDC Bradley in this case quite literally requires that a person have non-human strength to damage it, and it high-lights just how powerful an MDC grenade is, as well as the literal scale of damage-capacity inflation.

In rifts offense and defense are pretty close in parity the weapons are super strong but the armor is light enough weight and protection to successfully mitigate the damage very effectively.

Just a note on this; pound-for-pound, body armour (and not any other kind of armour) has the highest protection to weight ratio around.

It is a testament to the power of the MDC explosives that something like a hand grenade on non direct contact is even capable of harming MDC body armor at all.

Well, if there wasn't two rules; all explosions hit the main body (only) and the G.I. Joe rule, MDC grenades would turn pretty much any person wearing body armour into chunky salsa thanks to gloves being low on the locational MDC scale.

But those rules exist specifically to prevent people needing MDC Hulk Hands, so I guess it's moot.

[Eashamahel]

Just a note on this; pound-for-pound, body armour (and not any other kind of armour) has the highest protection to weight ratio around.

Which tops out around the absurd levels of Cyborg armour, which since it is 'infantry' provides insane protection to weight, and since it is for an already super tough creature, offers greater protection than many power armours of equivalent or larger size (even the Light Infantry armour is more armour than you would get if you were WEARING a SAMAS, and the Heavy is apparantly more armoured than ht main body of the UAR-1...)

[Alrik Vas]

I just run it differently.

All grenades do their damage x2 for their listed blast radius. Then normal damage to triple their blast radius, then half damage out to 30 meters. Unless they're specialized armor peircing grenades of some sort, then they just do double to a small radius, but have the "extra critical" on a modified 17+.

Though i do have explosions effect center mass, unless its like a land mine or someone is using an AP grenade with called shot.

I'm odd, i know.

[Eashamahel]

I just run it differently.

All grenades do their damage x2 for their listed blast radius. Then normal damage to triple their blast radius, then half damage out to 30 meters. Unless they're specialized armor peircing grenades of some sort, then they just do double to a small radius, but have the "extra critical" on a modified 17+.

Though i do have explosions effect center mass, unless its like a land mine or someone is using an AP grenade with called shot.

I'm odd, i know.

That's not odd at all, having higher centralized damage and lessening damage as it gets further away is a very reasonable way of doing it, and that's a great system.

[Alrik Vas]

I'm just used to people ignoring my house rules, save for rare occasions.

[kaid]

It is a testament to the power of the MDC explosives that something like a hand grenade on non direct contact is even capable of harming MDC body armor at all.

except that mini-missiles, which likely carry a similar payload, can deal substantially more damage than a grenade.

Except that most of the damage done by mini missiles is done via the direct impact of the missile with the target. The blast radius damage is similar to that of the grenades.

I don't think it works that way. The kinetic energy transfered from the impact would be trivial compared to the energy from the explosion.

--flatline

Well game mechanics wise is only the target hit by the missile takes full damage everything in the blast radius takes half damage. Given that the primary target takes the full higher damage and those in the blast radius take damage comprable to the grenades.

[Alrik Vas]

I think that could be explained by the target being, you know, on top of the brunt of the damage. I don't think it has anything to do with the impact of the missile itself. Mini-missiles would be heavier than grenades, packing a higher payload. They're the size of a soda can generally, a grenade is actually about 30% smaller. If they were the same size, they'd be much more difficult to throw the 90-120ft range they're given.

[Eashamahel]

... I think you forgot your conclusion there Kaid?

" Given that the primary target takes the full higher damage and those in the blast radius take damage comprable to the grenades."...... It leads me to believe the missile impact to the target causes that higher damage? It seems that (mini-)missiles and grenades have an approximately equal explosive charge? It seems that missiles already use a simple system of higher damage centered at the point of impact (2x) and less damage in the blast radius (1x) similar to Alrik's house rule?

[glitterboy2098]

actually, from the way things look, minimissiles are 2-3x larger than the grenades, and likely carry a bigger warhead.

[Eashamahel]

From the way mini-missiles look, they vary WILDLY in size for NO reason. There are two mini-missiles in the SAMAS left forearm housing, they are NOT much larger than grenades, and they are VASTLY smaller than the 'mini-missiles' on the shoulders of the (much larger) GB killer, which appear to be about the size of two liter pop-bottles.

So... Yeah. Size in RIFTS is very inconsistent.

[Alrik Vas]

When you're in a battle and collateral damage/casualties aren't an issue, yeah...totally lead with a frag. Though with 6-12 guys in a squad, there are plenty of grenades to go around even if you each only have 4.

[Morik]

But those rules exist specifically to prevent people needing MDC Hulk Hands, so I guess it's moot.

Titan Juicers would be ok.

[Alrik Vas]

Really depends on how you look at it. Some people like each body part to have a % of the total HP/SDC. So a grenade could still obliterate your fingers pretty easily, in that light.

Though i don't do it that way, just a mess.

[rat_bastard]

As much as I believe there is no such thing as Overkill in a world with demons and monsters I would like to say the merc companies in merctown are much more reasonably equipped.

[Crow Splat]

There is a pistol in Warlords of Russia that holds 6 grenades. The weight is 11 pounds fully loaded and 10 pounds with no grenades.

So 24 grenades is potentially as light as 4 pounds. At that weight it doesn't sound all that unreasonable to carry.

[Eashamahel]

By the pictures (especially be Perez) of characters with Bandolier grenades in RIFTS, plasm grenades look about the size of a pack of life-savers candy, with domed ends. Now, art isn't really a good way to judge things in RIFTS, as it's often, if not wrong, wildly out of/different in scale, but that about fits with the size of the second barrel in the old C-14, and other rifle grenade weapons, as well as other pictures of RIFTS characters with grenades (which is different than, say, the Special Forces OCC picture in Mercenaries, which is a picture in a RIFTS book, but not a RIFTS character).

[flatline]

I don't know what book it's from, but something that made me giggle was the stun gun that only gets 10 "shots" from an e-clip.

If an e-clip holds 1000 times the amount of energy as a car battery, and a modern stun gun gets multiple shots out of a single lithium cell, then a stun gun using an e-clip should get so many shots that it's not even worth tracking (read: effectively unlimited).

--flatline

[wyrmraker]

I don't know what book it's from, but something that made me giggle was the stun gun that only gets 10 "shots" from an e-clip.

If an e-clip holds 1000 times the amount of energy as a car battery, and a modern stun gun gets multiple shots out of a single lithium cell, then a stun gun using an e-clip should get so many shots that it's not even worth tracking (read: effectively unlimited).

--flatline

An excellent example of how inconsistent Palladium gets. The 'Rule of Cool' seems to trump all, leading to many different interpretations of the game. The interpretations aren't necessarily incorrect, just different.

[glitterboy2098]

a modern stun gun sends its current over metal wires.

a rifts stun gun forces it across air at super high voltage. the latter, while giving a scifi effect, is far less efficient.

[flatline]

a modern stun gun sends its current over metal wires.

a rifts stun gun forces it across air at super high voltage. the latter, while giving a scifi effect, is far less efficient.

You're thinking of a "Stun Blaster". A "Stun Gun" must touch the target to be useful, just like a modern stun gun.

Both are listed on page 129 of the GMG.

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

By the pictures (especially be Perez) of characters with Bandolier grenades in RIFTS, plasm grenades look about the size of a pack of life-savers candy, with domed ends. Now, art isn't really a good way to judge things in RIFTS, as it's often, if not wrong, wildly out of/different in scale, but that about fits with the size of the second barrel in the old C-14, and other rifle grenade weapons, as well as other pictures of RIFTS characters with grenades (which is different than, say, the Special Forces OCC picture in Mercenaries, which is a picture in a RIFTS book, but not a RIFTS character).

I was going to reference this but you beat me to it. The 'grenades' we've seen detailed look about the size of glow sticks. Indeed, cylenders with little domed ends.

You can see some on pages 25, especially 43 (Shows a standard and a little standy-uppy stun version), 50, 189, of the Free Quebec book.

[The Beast]

I don't know what book it's from, but something that made me giggle was the stun gun that only gets 10 "shots" from an e-clip.

If an e-clip holds 1000 times the amount of energy as a car battery, and a modern stun gun gets multiple shots out of a single lithium cell, then a stun gun using an e-clip should get so many shots that it's not even worth tracking (read: effectively unlimited).

--flatline

And now to cheese you off, the Gallant H-90 from The Sentinels has "effectively unlimited (estimated 1,000 shots) ammo" on its SDC setting.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't know what book it's from, but something that made me giggle was the stun gun that only gets 10 "shots" from an e-clip.

If an e-clip holds 1000 times the amount of energy as a car battery, and a modern stun gun gets multiple shots out of a single lithium cell, then a stun gun using an e-clip should get so many shots that it's not even worth tracking (read: effectively unlimited).

--flatline

Yeah, that's messed up.

[glitterboy2098]

could be differences in energy storage.. a stun device like that uses super low amps but high volatage.. if Eclips store low voltage but high Amps, the same way many of the best capacitors do in RL, the conversion between high amps/low voltage to ultra low Amps, ultrahigh volatage might see a lot of energy lost.

that said, it does seem a bit excessive even then. might be easier to just append an extra couple of zero's for your own games.

[McFacemelt]

When I was in the military most of us didn't want grenades mainly because when you shoot them they explode, and if you've got more than one on you the chances that however many you have are going to blow are pretty high.

Twelve grenades strapped to your chest in Rifts is a pretty sure fire way to die imho.

[rat_bastard]

Grenades from todat and grenades from 3 centuries from now could be completely different animals.

[Alrik Vas]

Or they could be exactly the same and people are just idiots. Either way works for me in Rifts.

[SolCannibal]

Robot Control has a rational spread of armor options at least, but the same 12 grenades are back, and their ratio of missile or grenade launchers is one in four instead of 50/50, so that’s a step in the right direction. Not the entire trip mind you, but a step at least…though I note you can choose a TX-30 or a Naruni weapon as your main weapon…I wonder if many serious mercenaries are carrying Naruni any more, what with the death sentence pretty much everyone of note has slapped on them now-a-days?

If the weapons' energy discharge is not insanely different from those of "traditional earth weapons" you can sure bet many will keep them and simply disguise their looks so it is less obvious. Not to mention that any groups that are already targets of the Coalition, like most DB societies or the FoM, wouldn't care all that much, specially after what the skullboys did to Tolkeen...

Truth be told, it beggars the question of why weren't the Tolkeenites armed in Naruni gear up to their ears....

[Shark_Force]

naruni weapons are hard to find because the CS declared them contraband. the ammunition is also relatively hard to find, although easier than the weapons iirc. this is a problem, because you can just recharge an e-clip, but you can't do that with naruni weapons.

also, they were too busy being complete morons and assuming that their demon "allies" were trustworthy and that it was a good idea to invest large amounts of time, energy, and money into augmenting a group of demons that are, by definition, untrustworthy, evil, bloodthirsty, murderous scum. well, that and (probably) binding the souls of their people into giant war machines when they had no realistic expectation of ever being able to hold out in a straight up conventional war (seriously, they should have invested all their efforts first into making their city impossible to find or target, then worried about how to feed their people and sustain the war effort, then worried about setting up traps and planning an escape route in case the worst happened, then worried about how to harass the CS invaders, then worried about how to harass the CS in CS territory, and then worried about a lot of other things... and then, finally, somewhere way down near the bottom of the list, (somewhere below worrying about whether they need to go to the bathroom right now but above worrying that the sky is in fact not blue per se (and is actually just refracting out blue light rather than the other colours) they could possibly worry about upgrading the daemonix. or, they could just hand them a few scrolls and send them off to battle to get slaughtered but soak up some railgun bursts and missiles before they die, because seriously... they're demons. they're gonna screw you over.

(not that the CS as written made good decisions either, mind you).

[kaid]

naruni weapons are hard to find because the CS declared them contraband. the ammunition is also relatively hard to find, although easier than the weapons iirc. this is a problem, because you can just recharge an e-clip, but you can't do that with naruni weapons.

also, they were too busy being complete morons and assuming that their demon "allies" were trustworthy and that it was a good idea to invest large amounts of time, energy, and money into augmenting a group of demons that are, by definition, untrustworthy, evil, bloodthirsty, murderous scum. well, that and (probably) binding the souls of their people into giant war machines when they had no realistic expectation of ever being able to hold out in a straight up conventional war (seriously, they should have invested all their efforts first into making their city impossible to find or target, then worried about how to feed their people and sustain the war effort, then worried about setting up traps and planning an escape route in case the worst happened, then worried about how to harass the CS invaders, then worried about how to harass the CS in CS territory, and then worried about a lot of other things... and then, finally, somewhere way down near the bottom of the list, (somewhere below worrying about whether they need to go to the bathroom right now but above worrying that the sky is in fact not blue per se (and is actually just refracting out blue light rather than the other colours) they could possibly worry about upgrading the daemonix. or, they could just hand them a few scrolls and send them off to battle to get slaughtered but soak up some railgun bursts and missiles before they die, because seriously... they're demons. they're gonna screw you over.

(not that the CS as written made good decisions either, mind you).

One of the biggest problems with naruni weapons is their biggest lines are the plasma cartridge weapons. In an area where their sales outlets has been seriously pruned back by the CS and NG getting a weapon that uses a pretty expensive and increasingly more rare ammo type does not make a whole lot of sense. I would imagine the force fields are still super popular if people can find them probably very very scarce because of that popularity and overall easier to conceal but weapons wise naruni guns are nice but not nice enough to overcome the ammo limitations. While they tend to do more damage than earth made guns the damage difference overall is not big enough to warrant the cost.

[kaid]

On an aside given the naruni's dealings with devils in the 3 galaxies if it winds up with some obvious tie in between the minions invading earth and naruni weapons the life expectency of any naruni on earth is going to grow even shorter than it already is.

[flatline]

One of the biggest problems with naruni weapons is their biggest lines are the plasma cartridge weapons. In an area where their sales outlets has been seriously pruned back by the CS and NG getting a weapon that uses a pretty expensive and increasingly more rare ammo type does not make a whole lot of sense. I would imagine the force fields are still super popular if people can find them probably very very scarce because of that popularity and overall easier to conceal but weapons wise naruni guns are nice but not nice enough to overcome the ammo limitations. While they tend to do more damage than earth made guns the damage difference overall is not big enough to warrant the cost.

If you're stuck paying book prices to charge e-clips, Naruni plasma cartridges are a bargain. If you're not paying book prices to recharge e-clips, then Naruni weapons are probably not appealing to you.

The fact that the CS attacks people with Naruni weapons is of little consequence unless you're actually worried about running into CS forces that would otherwise have been peaceful towards you.

--flatline