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The Mystic China non-martial artist OCCs/PCCs.
Channeler and Assistant?/Sidekick ACOLYTE! from Beyond the Looking Glass Through the Glass Darkly.
Arcanist from BTS1.
I'd also allow a power set that allows a Natural/Genius to cast.
I'd also allow a Parapsychologist or Latent Psychic from BTS1 or BTS2 to learn spells; lack of PPE is it's own balancing factor.

I found hybridization of the BtS1 Arcanist (P.C.C. abilities including spells) combined with an occupation from BtS2 works well. PPE is a bit of an issue though. I suggest using 3D6 0r 2D6+6 as the base and multiply it as you would ISP for a psychic. I would also add either 2 points per level or 1 point on even levels and 2 points on odd levels (or even just one point per level).

The BtS magic book, if it ever comes out is supposed to have a magic system that is a little bit different from the rest of the Palladium megaverse. Given that everyone who actually plays BtS has been forced to either use existing magical material from other Palladium books or house rule it, it will be interesting to see how well the new system is recieved. The writers and publishers may think it is the best system since sliced bread-it might very well be!- but people often hate change and 8 years is plenty of time for people to have become set in their ways.

Certainly if the new system doesn't allow me to make characters I already have in use then I will ignore it.

But I digress.

You can use most types of magic from the other Palladium lines without too much trouble if you just divide the base P.P.E. by ten.

Mephisto wrote:I wouldn't let a Parapsychologist or Latent Psychic to learn spells. They could figure out how to use magic items and add their P.P.E. to rituals, but outright casting spells takes a lot of practice and education, not just innate talent (since at the moment, there aren't any Mystics officially in BTS), so I'd not add spellcasting to their bag of tricks.

TtGD specifically allows Parapsychologists to take Sorcerous Proficiencies while recommending a corresponding flaw and a limit of one ETA: TWO! I NEED TO CHECK MY SOURCES! Sorcerous Proficiencies. They've also got the all important Understanding the Principals of Magic.

Latent Psychics can already (BTS 1ED) use psi-mechanic devices intuitively. They're able to choose and develop their powers as they gain levels. Sorcerous Proficiencies aren't that much of a stretch.

So, they know 4 spells from levels 1-4, with, like 12 PPE. The first real mage or supernatural horror that comes along chuckles softly at their delusion and eats their soul.

Mephisto wrote:A Natural/Genius wouldn't have the patience to go through wizardry school. They get bored too easily and lack focus (that's what makes them great, they know a lot of everything but master none; but can recognize what's going on better than most characters because they have that breadth of knowledge even if the details escape them).

I see Naturals differently. They're that way because they're borderlin CDO (it's like OCD, but alphabetical. THE WAY IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE. Ahem) That's what the power set is; either an intuitive understanding or a focused study. Fluff as necessary, maybe require a specific set of skills to provide the crunch. They burn some PPE as a link to learning and husband the rest for powering their spells. They just don't get any more PPE. Ever. And there's not a multiplier for supernatural evil either.

Mephisto wrote:And as for the book Through the Glass Darkly (I believe that is the book you were talking about)...it's in my opinion, already a BTS book, that has Nightbane elements added to help it sell more. And it's truly the greatest Palladium book of all time.

TtGD, yeah. Shoulda been the base for any Palladium magic.

The key heres is that it costs skills to get spells. Those skill require flaws, which hurt. And they never get any more PPE or a multiplier for supernatural evil. That makes their magic a trick, not a threat. Unless you allow the H2H styles from Rifts Japan. Some of them double PPE, at like 10-12th level. Now you've got 24 PPE at 12th level. Good for you, you can cast Telekinesis *3* times a day!

The Assistant ETA: ACOLYTE, Thank You, OCC from TtGD (away from books right now) does get a little PPE with each level. But 1d4 isn't going to make you the next Merlin. Said first real mage or supernatural horror that comes along, says "That was a bit of a challenge," chuckles softly at their delusion, and eats their soul.

thorr-kan wrote:TtGD, yeah. Shoulda been the base for any Palladium magic.

The key heres is that it costs skills to get spells. Those skill require flaws, which hurt. And they never get any more PPE or a multiplier for supernatural evil. That makes their magic a trick, not a threat. Unless you allow the H2H styles from Rifts Japan. Some of them double PPE, at like 10-12th level. Now you've got 24 PPE at 12the level. Good for you, you can cast Telekinesis *3* times a day!

The Assistant OCC from TtGD (away from books right now) does get a little PPE with each level. But 1d4 isn't going to make you the next Merlin. Said first real mage or supernatural horror that comes along, says "That was a bit of a challenge," chuckles softly at their delusion, and eats their soul.

Hi there,

1. Skills to get spells? No.
Hmmm, I think that is not according to the book (for what that matters), which I, too, love:

I don't see that anywhere in Nightbane. New spells are acquired level independent through learning, e.g. in a magic guild and may require payment in services, achievements, or plain money [Nightbane Core Book, pages 116 (Sorceror entry) and 124 ss (The Pursuit of Magic)]. New spells can be created according to the rules in TtGD, but that requires time and resources, not by spending skills.

I think you refer to the "Sorcerous Proficiencies" with the attached quirks. Great ideas, many usful for BtS, I agree, and will influence magic work, but is not equal to spell acquisition.

Did I miss something?

That is my reading of the rules, a houserule to spend skills for spells would be interesting, but I see it nowhere in the rules (core, optional or other).

2. PPE
Hmm, but in BtS PPE will be mutilplied as ISP, so 1D4, say 2, is not much, but will transform into 2-20 points depending on the Horror level of the supernatural encounter.

Cheers
Hendrik

Mephisto wrote:I think he's referring to the Acolyte where the character can gain a psionic power (most beneficial would be Mind Block) in lieu of a skill. Being an Acolyte isn't all that bad actually as you develop defenses against psionics and magic and can use weapons pretty well. So when your agony spell fails, better be scared for the agony of a punch to the face.

Nope. TtGD, p24, column 2, paragraph 2, under "Sorcerous Proficiencies" quote, "Each Proficiency may be taken in place of a Secondary Skill during character creation." Paragraph goes on to recommend how many skill should be allowed per OCC, specifically calling out Acolytes and Parapsychologists. It also recommends 1 limitation/proficiency, but hey...power comes at a price.

Item 31-40 Incantation Specialist grants 4 spells from levels 1-4. Voila! Instant spell caster, just add fluff to back your crunch.

The Acolyte's OCC Ability 4, Psychic Powers is another wonderful loophole, but that's another post.

Mephisto wrote:EDIT: I'm not sure if KS made the decision but for the OCC Related Skills, any skill is available. So the Acolyte isn't really limited to one area. I think Kevin Hassall probably hated the character creation mechanics of such a low powered character, but I'd drop the OCC skills and give the character an Occupation instead to decide the skills.

Honestly, I'd say it's by design. {Pratchett}"How may Igor serve you, mathter?"{/Pratchett}

Hendrik wrote:Hi there,

<SNIP>I think you refer to the "Sorcerous Proficiencies" with the attached quirks. Great ideas, many usful for BtS, I agree, and will influence magic work, but is not equal to spell acquisition.

Did I miss something?

Ayup. See my post above.

Hendrik wrote:2. PPE
Hmm, but in BtS PPE will be mutilplied as ISP, so 1D4, say 2, is not much, but will transform into 2-20 points depending on the Horror level of the supernatural encounter.

IF you're playing BTS 2ED. But iffen you're playing BTS 1ED, or Nightbane, or something else, what multiplier? In fact, we have not yet established that PPE will be multiplied. (I'm splitting hairs here, I know. We all KNOW PPE will get a multiplier whenever Arcanum gets published.) 20 PPE still means you're a speedbump, not a roadblock.

This is all optional rules, DM's approval, Your Game May Vary, etc. But it's there, waiting for a character to abuse it, and then get crushed by a REAL mage.

Both of my posts above were going to include commentary to the effect of "Sources! You have to know your sources, people!"

BUT...as my edits to prior posts show, I need to follow my own advice. I've corrected the most blatant errors.

I've also learned something new: you can overcome the Sorcerous Limitations AND gain more Sorcerous Proficiencies as you progress in levels. Details are in TtGD, p27, column 1, paragraphs 3-4. I never knew that until tonight. Now you know why old experienced archmages are crazy!

Hey, thorr-khan,

skills for spells
Thank you for the edits, but I still do not see where you take this from. can you give a direct quote, please? As I read it, under Nightbane, skill "slots" are not required to learn spells. The sorcerous proficiencies are not spells but additional specials that change the person, not per se spell acquisition. I have given sources above from TtGD and Nightbane Core re spell learning. I think it looks pretty clear to me.

PPE
of course, under Nightbane or BtS-I there is no PPE multiplication. For PPE under BtS-II it is clear already. I know there was a huge discussion over it but that came because people (me included) overlooked the entries on PPE multipliction in the Proximity equals Power section of BtS-II (pages 30-31 BtS-II). It is hidden and the headline only speaks of ISP, but the text has two clear references that PPE are also multiplied like ISP.

Kindest regards
Hendrik

Hendrik wrote:Hey, thorr-khan,

skills for spells
Thank you for the edits, but I still do not see where you take this from. can you give a direct quote, please? As I read it, under Nightbane, skill "slots" are not required to learn spells. The sorcerous proficiencies are not spells but additional specials that change the person, not per se spell acquisition. I have given sources above from TtGD and Nightbane Core re spell learning. I think it looks pretty clear to me.

PPE
of course, under Nightbane or BtS-I there is no PPE multiplication. For PPE under BtS-II it is clear already. I know there was a huge discussion over it but that came because people (me included) overlooked the entries on PPE multipliction in the Proximity equals Power section of BtS-II (pages 30-31 BtS-II). It is hidden and the headline only speaks of ISP, but the text has two clear references that PPE are also multiplied like ISP.

Kindest regards
Hendrik

TtGD, p24, column 2, paragraph 2, under "Sorcerous Proficiencies" quote, "Each Proficiency may be taken in place of a Secondary Skill during character creation." Paragraph goes on to recommend how many skill should be allowed per OCC, specifically calling out Acolytes and Parapsychologists. It also recommends 1 limitation/proficiency, but hey...power comes at a price.

Item 31-40 Incantation Specialist grants 4 spells from levels 1-4. Voila! Instant spell caster, just add fluff to back your crunch.

hmmm.

The sorcerous proficiencies are optional, additional rules. They do not do away (unless you houserule it) with the normal spell learning rules. Page 24 of TtGD as cited by you contains no rules on spell learning - see my above references to the core book and TtGD. It "only" introduces sorcerous proficiencies on top. Those are learned as weapon proficiencies are, ie as skills. Spell learning is still independent from the proficiencies. Again, houserules can change that, and that is cool, but the core rule clearly does not equal skills and spells or makes skill slots necessary for spell acquisition, and neither do sorcerous profociencies change that. Perhaps I have overread a sentence... but I have not seen it. I am happy when corrected, but your reference does not say that spells are skills.

item 31-40 gives 1-4 ADDITIONAL spells.

0+4 is still 4 spells. Nothing says you have to be a spellcaster first. In fact the rules specifically call out the Acolyte and the Parapsychologist, who have no spellcasting ability.

Ok, but the proficiencies are not in lieu of standard spell learning but in addition. Item 31-40 is not the be all end all of spell learning. It costs skills to learn spells just does not hold.

Hendrik wrote:Ok, but the proficiencies are not in lieu of standard spell learning but in addition. Item 31-40 is not the be all end all of spell learning. It costs skills to learn spells just does not hold.

For some characters, it's a power boost (any magic-using OCC). For others, it *is* the be-all-end-all. These are all the spells they get. Ever.

Unless they choose to take another limitation and roll lucky. Or the DM allows them to choose this option. Classic sacrifice for power.

Of course, most DMs would require some sort of character justification. For myself, I'd have the player burn a skill program filled up on Lore skills.

I say do not give spells casting to Parapsychologist and Latent psychic.

I Hope Sorceous Profictencies and Limitation will be in Arcanum.
I would allow Profictencies only after level 10 and Limitations are for young Mages.

Maybe people can show ther ideas for Profictencies and limitations.

My idea for a Profictencies:Sublte at level 12 das not need to speak and gesture for casting,the spells do not appear to come from the caster.

Becoming a Arcanist will take years of study and time to built-up ther PPE,it a low magic area like BtS.
People are going to invenst ther young into becoming One,I think unless they use a Magical object or make a deal with demons,the Arcanist Npc,s and Player characters will be in ther 30s at best.

Rifts necromancer, gypsies, and a lot of others.

For the Arcanist, I have started using the mage from HU. I feel it encompasses the setting better.

Mephisto wrote:the first paragraph in the Acolyte description.

Sorcerous Proficiencies specifically calls out the Acolyte as able to use the proficiencies. Acolyte also has the all important Principles of Magic class feature. So, if these optional rules are in play, Acolyte's got the possibilities of being a spell caster.

But he's Tomas Wraith, not Harry Dresden; don't think otherwise.

Did anyone mention the Arcane Detective from Between the Shadows? ...pretty good too.

I say no to Natural/Genius and Latent psychic geting spells.
I hope Sorcerous Proficioncies and Limited in the BtS,s book?
Maybe people can show ther ideas?

It's not likely that sorcerous proficiencies will be mentioned at all in the BtS line of books given that they are a Nightbane thing and haven't officially migrated out of the one book in that series that they appear in.

I do not think ther will be much magic diversity in BtS,All Arcanist will only have Invocations spells.
What types of magic do you think will be in BtS?

Witch seems like an ideal protagonist (or interesting PC).

Well I use the Wizard from Palladium fantasyrpg.

I also need to think what spells will be good for BtS,I make up some limitions like the Ones in NB:TtGD,thers also Where ther learn magic from like self-taught from a book or a living mentor.

WOW! I think "Thread Necromancer" should be an available Magic OCC, if this discussion is any indication...

filo_clarke wrote:WOW! I think "Thread Necromancer" should be an available Magic OCC, if this discussion is any indication...

Its not a full OCC, its just a Magic Proficiency

<_<
>_>
And since some one necroed this, it seems a shame to not use a good zombie....
I would use the Chaos Wizard from the Chaos Earth book.
They have a random chance of making their spells work, don't really know how PPE works, a variable PPE pool.....yah, cool stuff that works great for a BTS mage

the shaman from PFrpg ?

I use The Pack Witch from PFrpg as a Npc,s villains from time to time.
One can be a reacurring Villain.

How about the medicine man , rain maker , shaman or voodoo priest from Rifts ?

Personally I think those would all be good fits, though I haven't gone to check on their mechanical aspects. They do add some variety though.

as for saying that mages have to be in there 30s, I dont see it.. the druids would teach an apprintess for 20 years before the became a full rank druid. but it took much less time to become and ovilet which did healing and devanation. (healing magic, orcails I would say herb magic, and scying mostly and a few other things. I would say mostly herb magic. then there where the bards, who used other types of magic and even curses. (this is the 2nd rank and could do every thing the first rank can do) then there is the 3rd rank the full druid who had access to the full power, and knowage of his order, inclouding scrifice, truth spells, and every thing the first 2 ranks can do...

tmikesecrist3 wrote:as for saying that mages have to be in there 30s, I dont see it.. the druids would teach an apprintess for 20 years before the became a full rank druid. but it took much less time to become and ovilet which did healing and devanation. (healing magic, orcails I would say herb magic, and scying mostly and a few other things. I would say mostly herb magic. then there where the bards, who used other types of magic and even curses. (this is the 2nd rank and could do every thing the first rank can do) then there is the 3rd rank the full druid who had access to the full power, and knowage of his order, inclouding scrifice, truth spells, and every thing the first 2 ranks can do...

Keep in mind that most these mystic systems come from cultures and times where 25 was middle age and 50 to 60 was ancient . In reality they would of started much younger and with living with the teacher class would of been 24 / 7 .

true but there are things that a Mage had to teach his puples, that are taken care of now by general education. so the mage can free up more to teach specialized things, so well in the past when basic education was not so freely available it may well have take 20 or more years. I would say now it would be passably to fully train a druid it 5 to 10 years, that means the apprentices are likely abet older but a mage who starts his training, as a teen or pre-teen would likely be done with his training by about 20-25... also of some one was calage age when he or she started training that person would be a level one mage before they got there masters, it would most likely take less time than to earn a doctoret... so I dont see why your gessing that all mages will be in there 30s.... at level one, that is posable off course some people could take longer if there self tought, or mostly self tought. also deffrent traditions will have deffrent ways of teaching so that means they may need more time or less time depending


on thing I have thought about is that maybe at level one a mage may still be a student... Admittedly an advanced one so he still maybe studying on under a master and given more and more advanced tasks... if that is the case at what bout would the training to be considered to be complete? or would that change form tradition to tradition? I agree at lvl one that a mage wouldnt really need his master and could well continue on hes own, but that is not really the point

I would say that a huge issue is the depth of the training and the speed of it.
Militaries routinely churn out people with educations that would take 5-10 years in the civilian world to acquire in 2-3 years. If you have good teachers, good curriculum, and no need to spend time on extraneous stuff you will teach some one a LOT fast than if you are teaching them an ad-hoc lesson plan you made up based on your own experiences in between doing the basic chores for survival.....

that is true and if I am teaching some one magic and occultism, and I do not have to teach them to read and wright, and to do basic math and science that makes my job easier, I can deal with the core subjects shall we say and let others deal with the general stuff, and let me round it out