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For the current Rifts game I'm playing in the primary "plot" is basically an alternate Chaos Earth time-line where a group of D-bees (the players) end up having some idea of what's about to hit Earth before it actually does (though we don't have all the details of course). So far we've pretty much concluded we can't stop it (we actually don't know what's going to cause the Cataclysm anyhow, just what some of the negative affects will be), but we may be able to warn NEMA what's coming (of course confrontation with them could end badly for my group).
So what I'm wondering is if NEMA had some warning, even if just a day or two ahead of time (which is likely to be the case). Do you think anything would have turned out differently? What would you imagine some of the more interesting ramifications could be?

EmeraldToucanet wrote:For the current Rifts game I'm playing in the primary "plot" is basically an alternate Chaos Earth time-line where a group of D-bees (the players) end up having some idea of what's about to hit Earth before it actually does (though we don't have all the details of course). So far we've pretty much concluded we can't stop it (we actually don't know what's going to cause the Cataclysm anyhow, just what some of the negative affects will be), but we may be able to warn NEMA what's coming (of course confrontation with them could end badly for my group).
So what I'm wondering is if NEMA had some warning, even if just a day or two ahead of time (which is likely to be the case). Do you think anything would have turned out differently? What would you imagine some of the more interesting ramifications could be?

If you aren't familiar with the show Stargate SG-1, check out this episode. In a nutshell, one of the team members accidentally accesses a device that transports him into a parallel reality. He has to convince the people in charge that he is from an alternate reality and must get the information they have on where the Goa'uld are attacking from, in order to save his world. Theirs is doomed and already under attack.

i think NEMA could have used the opportunity to evacuate key personnel and create a plan for continuity of services. to prepare and all.
but they couldn't have prevented the Cataclysm without rearranging the political landscape of the time. I dont know if NEMA could have done that legally.
But the PCs could be rogue agents who plan to stop the nuclear exchange that set the whole thing off. And they're labelled assassins and terrorists and hunted fugitives. That would be cool.

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:i think NEMA could have used the opportunity to evacuate key personnel and create a plan for continuity of services. to prepare and all.
but they couldn't have prevented the Cataclysm without rearranging the political landscape of the time. I dont know if NEMA could have done that legally.
But the PCs could be rogue agents who plan to stop the nuclear exchange that set the whole thing off. And they're labelled assassins and terrorists and hunted fugitives. That would be cool.

One player actually had the idea of kidnapping major political leaders, and hoping that we could bring them together to talk and work things out. This would have the added bonus of at least for a time getting the world to focus on the eeeevil aliens that kidnapped their leaders and maybe that would engender more unity among the humans as well. Time makes this tricky though (it would be great fun to play out if we had the chance), and there's other reasons in game that we don't think we'll be able to make it work as we'd like. Unfortunately we don't know about the nuclear exchange so we can't do anything specifically to stop that.

I'm hoping NEMA responds the way mentioned above. I suppose also they could respond as if they've just gotten warning of a major terrorist attack about to occur and deal with the public accordingly. That way people could sort of prepare a bit, even though they don't really know what they are preparing for.

@TiekoSora I'm familiar with Stargate, have read some of the books (which are a different continuity than the TV show), and seen the movie. I've watched some episodes of the show, but I don't think I've seen that particular one.

EmeraldToucanet wrote:For the current Rifts game I'm playing in the primary "plot" is basically an alternate Chaos Earth time-line where a group of D-bees (the players) end up having some idea of what's about to hit Earth before it actually does (though we don't have all the details of course). So far we've pretty much concluded we can't stop it (we actually don't know what's going to cause the Cataclysm anyhow, just what some of the negative affects will be), but we may be able to warn NEMA what's coming (of course confrontation with them could end badly for my group).
So what I'm wondering is if NEMA had some warning, even if just a day or two ahead of time (which is likely to be the case). Do you think anything would have turned out differently? What would you imagine some of the more interesting ramifications could be?

A day or two's advance warning might not be enough for any one in NEMA to effect any level of change. The Cataclysm was so widespread and pervasive that (according to the books) everyone was caught with their proverbial pants down.
Then again they might be able to save a few areas and stockpile some tech for the future which may wind up creating the CS or Free Quebec further down the line (causality loop anyone).

NEMA and the governments of Canada, Mexico, and the US could have done quite a bit with a couple days warning, if they actually believed it to be a credible scenario. Military bases could be called up to full readiness, ships put out to sea, coastal areas evacuated, etc.

Civilization would have fallen, but there would have been a much greater chance of recovering sooner.

keir451 wrote:

EmeraldToucanet wrote:For the current Rifts game I'm playing in the primary "plot" is basically an alternate Chaos Earth time-line where a group of D-bees (the players) end up having some idea of what's about to hit Earth before it actually does (though we don't have all the details of course). So far we've pretty much concluded we can't stop it (we actually don't know what's going to cause the Cataclysm anyhow, just what some of the negative affects will be), but we may be able to warn NEMA what's coming (of course confrontation with them could end badly for my group).
So what I'm wondering is if NEMA had some warning, even if just a day or two ahead of time (which is likely to be the case). Do you think anything would have turned out differently? What would you imagine some of the more interesting ramifications could be?

A day or two's advance warning might not be enough for any one in NEMA to effect any level of change. The Cataclysm was so widespread and pervasive that (according to the books) everyone was caught with their proverbial pants down.
Then again they might be able to save a few areas and stockpile some tech for the future which may wind up creating the CS or Free Quebec further down the line (causality loop anyone).

Well not quite everyone was caught off guard, the Oracle Cats in South America had visions of what was coming but since their people were used as slaves by humans they just escaped and saved their own kind while traveling to where they could hook up with the three feline gods who became the rulers of their new city Omagua.

Odds are more deaths would be caused before hand, no one would would imagine how bad it would be , tidal waves, earthquakes , super volcano going off , monsters coming out of mystic portals all at once, odds are everybody would be caught in middle of gearing up for this, more resources might be losted because of it, then being caught off guard, most of the stuff that survive is because it was secured.

EmeraldToucanet wrote:For the current Rifts game I'm playing in the primary "plot" is basically an alternate Chaos Earth time-line where a group of D-bees (the players) end up having some idea of what's about to hit Earth before it actually does (though we don't have all the details of course). So far we've pretty much concluded we can't stop it (we actually don't know what's going to cause the Cataclysm anyhow, just what some of the negative affects will be), but we may be able to warn NEMA what's coming (of course confrontation with them could end badly for my group).
So what I'm wondering is if NEMA had some warning, even if just a day or two ahead of time (which is likely to be the case). Do you think anything would have turned out differently? What would you imagine some of the more interesting ramifications could be?

You would probably end up with what Chaos Earth was originally going to be before it got changed to what we know it as now.

But personally there is just no way NEMA or anyone could have done anything to change the cataclysm, there was vastly too much, too soon, with too little resources to do anything but gawk and look stupid.
Once the countries started the nuclear lollapalooza it was out of everyones hands.

It's hard to say what would have happened had NEMA known. I'm not going to quote anything scientific to make my point but the possibilities are endless. I don't think the widespread destruction would have been different, maybe some key leaders would have been saved, but at the same time they probably would have been hunted down by the demon and monster armies had they found out these leaders were still around. Maybe not, hard to say.

Of course all of this assumes that History of Flexible.
What if NEMA believes this group of aliens, only misunderstands this as a threat instead of a warning, and the actions they take are the only reason those that survived did, and further lead directly to the creation of the weapons caches the Coalition uncovers to begin the creation of their great war machine, and further the piecemeal bits of intelligence uncovered about the warning is what starts (or enhances) their anti-dbee stance?

What if you prevent the events that cause the Cataclysm, but in the process begin a chain of events that causes the Cataclysm instead? Now you have a Cataclysm and guilt.

Looonatic wrote:What if you prevent the events that cause the Cataclysm, but in the process begin a chain of events that causes the Cataclysm instead? Now you have a Cataclysm and guilt.

Depending upon the story setting some have it that some events in history are fixed so that anything you do will fail or inadvertently make yourselves replace the original cause of the event to ensure it succeeds.

Nightmask wrote:

Looonatic wrote:What if you prevent the events that cause the Cataclysm, but in the process begin a chain of events that causes the Cataclysm instead? Now you have a Cataclysm and guilt.

Depending upon the story setting some have it that some events in history are fixed so that anything you do will fail or inadvertently make yourselves replace the original cause of the event to ensure it succeeds.

I borrow from an old D&D supplement called 'Chronomancer' which suggested that time travel to certain historically significant periods of time was impossible due to the immutability of the timeline at that point. It makes a certain kind of perverse sense since a time traveler's presence would automatically be a divergence. If there were no divergences possible, there could be no time travel.

Looonatic wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Looonatic wrote:What if you prevent the events that cause the Cataclysm, but in the process begin a chain of events that causes the Cataclysm instead? Now you have a Cataclysm and guilt.

Depending upon the story setting some have it that some events in history are fixed so that anything you do will fail or inadvertently make yourselves replace the original cause of the event to ensure it succeeds.

I borrow from an old D&D supplement called 'Chronomancer' which suggested that time travel to certain historically significant periods of time was impossible due to the immutability of the timeline at that point. It makes a certain kind of perverse sense since a time traveler's presence would automatically be a divergence. If there were no divergences possible, there could be no time travel.

I haven't read that in a long time, although the presence of a time traveler at a particular point in time doesn't automatically rate making a divergence. It really depends on how one considers something a divergence. If displacing a single atom qualifies then yes, but if you have to change things on a more macro-scale (someone goes left rather than right on a choice of paths) then one could be there and observe an event and as long as you don't otherwise interact you'd not bring about a divergence.

Nightmask wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Looonatic wrote:What if you prevent the events that cause the Cataclysm, but in the process begin a chain of events that causes the Cataclysm instead? Now you have a Cataclysm and guilt.

Depending upon the story setting some have it that some events in history are fixed so that anything you do will fail or inadvertently make yourselves replace the original cause of the event to ensure it succeeds.

I borrow from an old D&D supplement called 'Chronomancer' which suggested that time travel to certain historically significant periods of time was impossible due to the immutability of the timeline at that point. It makes a certain kind of perverse sense since a time traveler's presence would automatically be a divergence. If there were no divergences possible, there could be no time travel.

I haven't read that in a long time, although the presence of a time traveler at a particular point in time doesn't automatically rate making a divergence. It really depends on how one considers something a divergence. If displacing a single atom qualifies then yes, but if you have to change things on a more macro-scale (someone goes left rather than right on a choice of paths) then one could be there and observe an event and as long as you don't otherwise interact you'd not bring about a divergence.

Anything can be consider a divergence,
Example
You appear, a kid see you, it stops him in his tracks.
Now what was supposed to happen in that timeline.
The kid was suppose to die and set off a series of events in which leaders would have prevented the nuclear exchange in south America and they would bring the world world peace once and for all.

Yeah there is always the possibility of some butterfly-affect type stuff happening, could be anything from the example where the kid that would have normally died was instead saved, to something that seems much more insignificant. Or it's also possible that almost no matter what a group with "special knowledge" does things will in the long run turn out the same (or as someone mentioned actually end up causing what you are trying to stop).

What I think would be entertaining is if somehow my group, a bunch of aliens of all things, ends up somehow helping lay the foundation for Chi-Town, or something like that (and thus either play a role in bringing about a nation that would love nothing better than to blast us into oblivion, or possibly changing how that group turns out).

EmeraldToucanet wrote:Yeah there is always the possibility of some butterfly-affect type stuff happening, could be anything from the example where the kid that would have normally died was instead saved, to something that seems much more insignificant. Or it's also possible that almost no matter what a group with "special knowledge" does things will in the long run turn out the same (or as someone mentioned actually end up causing what you are trying to stop).

What I think would be entertaining is if somehow my group, a bunch of aliens of all things, ends up somehow helping lay the foundation for Chi-Town, or something like that (and thus either play a role in bringing about a nation that would love nothing better than to blast us into oblivion, or possibly changing how that group turns out).

The "long run" is the real question. There's no doubt that a forewarned NEMA could save a few more lives or that a group w/"special knowledge" could help make local areas safer, but how that affects things further down the line is the real question. We ARE talking effectively 300 yrs time difference between the time of Chaos Earth and Rifts. It would be fun to play a group of PC's that in trying to help save lives 300 yrs ago (Rifts time) unknowingly allow for the existance of the CS, maybe they save one of Karl's ancestors so that the Prosek family survives into the future, or maybe the accidently get that ancestor killed.
Now we know why the United Federation of Planets doesn't like time travel, it's too much of a headache!

i would say the players are what causes the events to unfold the way they did, if they had not shown up there and started trying to warn the governments then things would have calmed down. but because they showed up and were seen as a threat or possibly a spy/political espinage agent trying to mislead the agency from doing the right thing. thus the government sent the glitterboys in to assist thier allies which cause thier enemy to fire off nukes and setting off the whole chain of events leaving the PCs feeling guilty for destroying the earth and messing with the time line.